Author Topic: Indian Paintings  (Read 3589 times)

Offline Nichi

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Re: Indian Paintings
« Reply #240 on: November 24, 2011, 06:52:22 PM »

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Offline Nichi

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Re: Indian Paintings
« Reply #241 on: December 09, 2011, 08:10:53 PM »
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Offline Nichi

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Re: Indian Paintings
« Reply #242 on: December 09, 2011, 08:11:55 PM »
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Offline Michael

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Re: Indian Paintings
« Reply #243 on: December 10, 2011, 03:55:16 PM »

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Re: Indian Paintings
« Reply #244 on: December 11, 2011, 05:47:27 AM »

Offline Michael

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Re: Indian Paintings
« Reply #245 on: December 11, 2011, 02:45:20 PM »
why?

How does one explain?
Yesterday we were reading about rasa in Indian music. It became quite complex, this whole issue of how and why we feel about artistic expression.

First you have the artist's primary expression. This is split into two: one is the obvious, stated expression, which is what the artist does - the technical details and the intended mood. The second is the suggested expression, which is what is implied behind or above the obvious - a feeling that is not depicted anywhere, but transmits out. This is especially noticeable in poetry, but applies to all artistic works.

When the stated expression is more potent than the suggested, the work is considered of a poorer nature, and when the suggested is greater than the stated, it is considered high quality. This is why some music which I don't like so much, is technically complex but leaves little 'after-glow' or carries no implied message of feeling. I also feel this is what happened to American films, where the technical aspect is so extraordinary and dramatic, it carries you along while watching but when you walk out, it is over - there is little room left for the internal processes to turn on, as everything was brought to the front in an over-obvious way. Nothing is left for the imagination.

I gather all this is called bhava in Indian theory. It forms the aspect of what the artist delivers or intends to deliver.

The second part is the audience response. What feelings and moods the recipient gets from the artistic expression. This is usually different but similar. So for example, a love scene, expressing romantic love, may engender erotic love in the audience, although no actual sexuality is present in the expression.

But sometimes it could be quite different. An older person hearing some children singing nursery rhymes, which is eliciting joy in the children, could elicit sadness and longing in the older person.

This is generally called rasa in the Indian theory, but actually, I think rasa is more closely tied to a spiritual response - when the artist successfully attracts the divine presence intended by the expression, and the listener is then 'transported' to a supra-mundane state, which could be of a number of moods. I don't think rasa is associated with mundane emotions, but that could be because traditionally all Indian art was of a spiritual nature - secular art didn't appear in India till only recently.

Apparently, due to the influence of Islamic poetic sentiment, North Indian classical music moved more into a technical appreciation and away from focus on rasa, but that may be only one person's view - not sure.

So when I view that picture above, it's not anything specifically in the painting that I can identify as to why I like it - it is the suggestive feeling which creates something of a pure and simple mood in me. Personally, I think it's impossible to classify feelings with words - emotions are easier to speak of, but feelings are fine and nebulous.

Offline Nichi

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Re: Indian Paintings
« Reply #246 on: December 11, 2011, 03:32:28 PM »
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Offline Nichi

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Re: Indian Paintings
« Reply #247 on: December 11, 2011, 03:55:58 PM »
How does one explain?
Yesterday we were reading about rasa in Indian music. It became quite complex, this whole issue of how and why we feel about artistic expression.

First you have the artist's primary expression. This is split into two: one is the obvious, stated expression, which is what the artist does - the technical details and the intended mood. The second is the suggested expression, which is what is implied behind or above the obvious - a feeling that is not depicted anywhere, but transmits out. This is especially noticeable in poetry, but applies to all artistic works.

When the stated expression is more potent than the suggested, the work is considered of a poorer nature, and when the suggested is greater than the stated, it is considered high quality. This is why some music which I don't like so much, is technically complex but leaves little 'after-glow' or carries no implied message of feeling. I also feel this is what happened to American films, where the technical aspect is so extraordinary and dramatic, it carries you along while watching but when you walk out, it is over - there is little room left for the internal processes to turn on, as everything was brought to the front in an over-obvious way. Nothing is left for the imagination.

I gather all this is called bhava in Indian theory. It forms the aspect of what the artist delivers or intends to deliver.

The second part is the audience response. What feelings and moods the recipient gets from the artistic expression. This is usually different but similar. So for example, a love scene, expressing romantic love, may engender erotic love in the audience, although no actual sexuality is present in the expression.

But sometimes it could be quite different. An older person hearing some children singing nursery rhymes, which is eliciting joy in the children, could elicit sadness and longing in the older person.

This is generally called rasa in the Indian theory, but actually, I think rasa is more closely tied to a spiritual response - when the artist successfully attracts the divine presence intended by the expression, and the listener is then 'transported' to a supra-mundane state, which could be of a number of moods. I don't think rasa is associated with mundane emotions, but that could be because traditionally all Indian art was of a spiritual nature - secular art didn't appear in India till only recently.

Apparently, due to the influence of Islamic poetic sentiment, North Indian classical music moved more into a technical appreciation and away from focus on rasa, but that may be only one person's view - not sure.

So when I view that picture above, it's not anything specifically in the painting that I can identify as to why I like it - it is the suggestive feeling which creates something of a pure and simple mood in me. Personally, I think it's impossible to classify feelings with words - emotions are easier to speak of, but feelings are fine and nebulous.

This was a noble and interesting effort to answer the question, Michael. I'm sure I could never have done so well trying to explain the ineffable. There are so many levels on which the 'recipient' may respond, from the technical to the emotional to the mystical. Sometimes the wisest answer is "I don't know why."

As for the above painting, it is certainly one of the finer paintings in the court-genre. The style is Mughal, and the artistic finesse was one of the best influences of the Mughal emperors: they sometimes painted themselves, but most certainly contracted competent artists. The art was valued.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2011, 04:01:46 PM by Nichi »
Not here, not there, but everywhere - always right before your eyes.
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Offline Nichi

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Re: Indian Paintings
« Reply #248 on: December 11, 2011, 06:27:58 PM »
I gather all this is called bhava in Indian theory. It forms the aspect of what the artist delivers or intends to deliver.

(I shall be reading up on "bhava"...)

There's an interesting aspect to the artist's intent which I come up against frequently while viewing these paintings. Most of the paintings posted were done in the 17th-19th centuries, before British influence. I believe that viewing them now and viewing them then are probably two very different experiences. Viewing them "then" might very well have been a scandalous thing.

There isn't quite enough information available. Why was the artist painting seems a crucial question: that is, was the artist hired by a wealthy ruler to paint a certain subject, probably for the ruler's palace or for the ruler's private viewing? For example, I feel certain that the painting-in-question was a portrait of the wife of some wealthy benefactor. The artist took no liberties with her allegorically, and did not bring in the nayika and ragini themes. I'll wager that the fabric and whole costume depicted indeed looked like that...

There is a whole dimension socially/sociologically with the paintings, in terms of how they depict the relationships between the men and women. Even the ones which have echoes of eroticism reveal something about how women were viewed then. In so few of them do the women seem to be the poets -- rather, they are the objects, with clear expectations placed upon them. I have mostly omitted the ones I found blatantly offensive, though some of them are in this thread. I'm not talking about nudity: I'm talking about an overbearing dominance of the men.

The reality of the matter, as I understand it, is that respectable women in the culture of 17th-19th century India would never have made themselves available to be painted thusly. In fact, I've seen it written that most all of the paintings are completely the product of the artists' imaginations --- that an artist would never have been permitted to view the women of the court at all. Except in the case of formalized portraits.
Not here, not there, but everywhere - always right before your eyes.
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Offline Nichi

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Re: Indian Paintings
« Reply #249 on: December 11, 2011, 06:37:19 PM »
Ultimately, today, we come down to aesthetics. Is the costume appealing - is the fabric appealing? Does it evoke a particular feeling? To me the fabric, for example, is very pretty, but such liking is entirely a subjective matter.
Not here, not there, but everywhere - always right before your eyes.
~Hsin Hsin Ming

Offline Nichi

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Re: Indian Paintings
« Reply #250 on: December 11, 2011, 06:49:07 PM »
Not here, not there, but everywhere - always right before your eyes.
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Offline Michael

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Re: Indian Paintings
« Reply #251 on: December 11, 2011, 09:36:51 PM »
I think it would be wrong to presume too much about sexual mores in pre-Islamic India, because, as I understand, it varied considerably across the sub-continent. Take for example the Chandela dynasty, which built the Khajuraho temples. I'm not sure how much is known about them from direct sources, but they certainly displayed a very open celebration of feminine sexuality, and sexuality in general.

The problem is that India today is extremely puritanical, and has been for some time, such that Indian historians would never admit to anything other than their own morals existing at any previous time. When it comes to court ladies being seen by outsiders, I suspect the same rules would apply as did everywhere else in the world. But the women of the upper classes in general, that I'm reluctant to be too convinced about, as India had such diversity.

It often fascinates me, when considering the puritanical cultures attitudes to women, that the men even knew where to put their willy when it came to close encounters.

Offline Nichi

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Re: Indian Paintings
« Reply #252 on: December 12, 2011, 05:19:57 AM »
Well, I was just reporting what I've seen written many times, about the women of the court not being seen. Who knows if it is true. This is the culture who brought us the Kama Sutra, after all. Someone knew something about sex....  :)
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Offline Nichi

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Re: Indian Paintings
« Reply #253 on: December 14, 2011, 06:17:28 AM »
Not here, not there, but everywhere - always right before your eyes.
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Offline Nichi

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Re: Indian Paintings
« Reply #254 on: December 28, 2011, 03:34:06 PM »
Not here, not there, but everywhere - always right before your eyes.
~Hsin Hsin Ming

 

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