Restless Soma
Death (the tumbling force, public) => Decrease => Topic started by: goggle-eyed dandelion on June 13, 2007, 12:29:43 AM
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Art of Dying
George Harrison
There'll come a time when all of us must leave here
Then nothing sister Mary can do
Will keep me here with you
As nothing in this life that I've been trying
Could equal or surpass the art of dying
Do you believe me?
There'll come a time when all your hopes are fading
When things that seemed so very plain
Become an awful pain
Searching for the truth among the lying
And answered when you've learned the art of dying
But you're still with me
But if you want it
Then you must find it
But when you have it
There'll be no need for it
There'll come a time when most of us return here
Brought back by our desire to be
A perfect entity
Living through a million years of crying
Until you've realized the art of dying
Do you believe me?
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This is nice, but I slightly disagree that nothing in life can equal the art of dying. In fact, I submit that everything in how we live our lives will determine our art of dying, and that it all inter-relates.
I do agree, however that nothing we do in life surpasses the art of dying.
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What equals art of dying?
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What equals art of dying?
ah, the art of living?
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ah, the art of living?
Is living as inevitable as dying? Subjecting oneself to change is dying as well. The physical death is the ultimate purifcation of oneself from the delusions and stupidities carried out in life.
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Is living as inevitable as dying? Subjecting oneself to change is dying as well. The physical death is the ultimate purifcation of oneself from the delusions and stupidities carried out in life.
you asked what equals it. there is no art of dying if one isn't first practicing the art of living. but your right, no one has to live fully.
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Is living as inevitable as dying? Subjecting oneself to change is dying as well. The physical death is the ultimate purifcation of oneself from the delusions and stupidities carried out in life.
If reincarnation or rebirth is; then yes living is as inevitable as dying. Subjecting oneself to change is not an option, for change is inevitable, although the direction of change would maybe be quite alterable.. The last statement about death being ultimate purification again holds not true if rebirth or reincarnation come about. Also, what is wrong with working on ridding oneself of delusions and stupidities whilst alive?
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Yes, rebirth, Samsara, endless cycle. It is all good and sound at mental level.
What I'm concerned, however, is not the big theory, but the death moving towards me and what and how could I accomplish in this very life, in time I have been given.
Really, what is the importance of Buddhist truths or anything else in the face of imminent death?
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you asked what equals it. there is no art of dying if one isn't first practicing the art of living. but your right, no one has to live fully.
Change is also the art of dying. Life is a long process of dying ending with departure. How about that?
In such context 'being-OK-and-living-fully' sounds a bit hollow, don't you agree?
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Change is also the art of dying. Life is a long process of dying ending with departure. How about that?
the art of change is the art of dying along with the art of embracing the unknown. dying involves looking back. embracing the unknown involves looking forward. which way are you looking at it erik?
In such context 'being-OK-and-living-fully' sounds a bit hollow, don't you agree?
that could take us some time to explore erik. i don't know why things sound the way they do to you. why is it that you find mayflow trying to be ok with himself a "hollow" task?
my guess is that you find living fully "hollow" because you have made assumptions about the author...am i right? if we erase those assumptions as if they were never there and proceed...to suggest that fully living is a hollow task indicates that you havent devoted yourself to the effort yet. iow it doesnt seem that you know what it entails.
accepting change (ergo death) iow accepting the loss of something you once had is part of having it. iow dealing with the death is not actually walking through to the next part. embracing life (ergo living fully) is walking into the next part. dealing with your loss is important. but so too is moving on. neither task is "hollow."
tell me erik, since you have taken this position, what is it about living fully that seems so "hollow" to you? do you not love life? have you never seen something so beautiful that you wept in joy? have you ever tasted food so marvelous that you had to stop and fully enjoy the moment it was in your mouth? do you think that you have enough moments to spare that you can waste opportunities to express the love within you? is life not profound? because erik, life to me is so full that your comment about living it in its fullness being "hollow" just doesnt track. ???
if you dont have a clue what it is you are giving up, how can you call it "the art of dying"? are not both necessary?
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the art of change is the art of dying along with the art of embracing the unknown. dying involves looking back. embracing the unknown involves looking forward. which way are you looking at it erik?
Death means looking forward to me.
why is it that you find mayflow trying to be ok with himself a "hollow" task?
Notice, when I want to say something to mayflow, I say it to him. Speaking about somebody present in third person is common on many forums where squabbling substitutes the discussion. Think about it for a while, Zenandnow, and decide if you want to continue this line of reasoning.
tell me erik, since you have taken this position, what is it about living fully that seems so "hollow" to you? do you not love life? have you never seen something so beautiful that you wept in joy? have you ever tasted food so marvelous that you had to stop and fully enjoy the moment it was in your mouth? do you think that you have enough moments to spare that you can waste opportunities to express the love within you? is life not profound? because erik, life to me is so full that your comment about living it in its fullness being "hollow" just doesnt track. ???
Yes, I have experienced various beautiful things and continue to experience. They won't last. Part of my beingness knows it perfectly well and I have played shifting my mind in an instant from utter enjoying of something to full realisation of the minuteness of it. Behind the joy there's awareness of minuteness of it. Don't make mistake lining them up in linear fashion - first we live, then we die. We are dying while living. The last breath is passing the gate at the end of the road that has always taken us only in one direction.
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The last breath is passing the gate at the end of the road that has always taken us only in one direction.
(http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g20/mysticaldaf/Photo_a_Day_847.jpg)
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Yet there's sadness and lack of sadness as well. :)
We treasure beauty in its minuteness, but there is no other way for beauty to be.
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Yet there's sadness and lack of sadness as well. :)
We treasure beauty in its minuteness, but there is no other way for beauty to be.
Therein lies the mystery of our being. :)
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The Dharma-Kāya of thine own mind thou shalt see; and seeing That, thou shalt have seen the All -- The Vision Infinite, the Round of Death and Birth and the State of Freedom.' -- Milarepa.
Jetsün Kahbum, xii (Lāma Kazi Dawa-Samdup's Translation.)
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(http://www.k2news.com/dimages/view.jpg)
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(http://digitalartist.com.my/img_collection/tunisia/2973-Tataouine-Small.jpg)
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The Dharma-Kāya of thine own mind thou shalt see; and seeing That, thou shalt have seen the All -- The Vision Infinite, the Round of Death and Birth and the State of Freedom.' -- Milarepa.
Jetsün Kahbum, xii (Lāma Kazi Dawa-Samdup's Translation.)
Maybe, Milarepa shoud have called it the "art" of Freedom?
- for what art could possibly be higher than the art of freedom? ;D
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Maybe, Milarepa shoud have called it the "art" of Freedom?
- for what art could possibly be higher than the art of freedom? ;D
Perhaps death is our door to freedom... so to speak :)
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the ultimate death
in my opinion
is to not los anything..
and retain
everything
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Perhaps death is our door to freedom... so to speak :)
This may be true as like in Buddha's case, his death was called by many the
para-nirvana. The ultimate release. I think it can only be that if you have
already found nirvana in your life before you die, though.
I just wrote a little about this in Ellen's form too, where I don't think you can
call death a complete demarkation point, or a complete transformer. It seems
to me that as you respond to other situations in life, so you will respond to
death. It all works and integrates together.
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It seems to me that as you respond to other situations in life, so you will respond to
death. It all works and integrates together.
That's precisely why it is so hard to accomplish what nakashi said - 'retain everything' or retain awareness. To do that, one must fundamentally transform one's way of living, one's very beingness.
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It seems to me that as you respond to other situations in life, so you will respond to
death. It all works and integrates together.
Perhaps, Mayflow, yes. In responding to different situations in life, for myself, it has been rather dependent on the situation. For me, I recognize that some situations have brought forth a response, and others a reaction. My work has been to turn that reaction into a response, so that it will be my natural state. I find that in response there appears to be - to me - an infinitesimal moment, that in some ways feels like a membrane between 2 spaces. In that moment, if I am aware, I am able to respond; and if I am not, I find myself reacting. I have explored this in great detail ;)
Like both Nakashi and Erik have just stated, the key for me is awareness. So I work on becoming more aware. I have found that in situations of 'crisis', my awareness is heightened. When I had my car accident, I found myself in the same state of heightened awareness. I like to think that when death finds me, I will be in that state too. I have also found it strangely different to "fear" states - in fear states I feel a bodily response, like an adrenalin jerk, an immediate reaction. The heightened state I experienced in my car accident was void of that - perhaps that was the body's "shock" reaction? I don't know.
I think I will only know as the event occurs :) until then I practice awareness.
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Traffic and driving - it all happens so fast there...no time to marinade in fear. :)
I was driving yesterday on a motorway and passed relatively steep curve at 60-65 mph when one car, instead of letting me go by, took off from the side of the road and blocked half of my lane. It was maybe 20-30 yards in front of me. Simultaneously two cars appeared from behind the curve in the opposite direction at a distance of maybe 70-80 yards. I automatically aimed my car into the narrow gap between the car in front of me and two cars coming toward me, and accelerated.
I managed to squeeze in and take over before car in front of me managed to reach the center of lane. There were maybe two feet between me and cars coming toward me, and me and the car blocking my way.
No adrenalin rush, nothing unusual followed. I analyzed the whole event later and found that had I tried to break, it probably would not had worked - I had no space. Apparently, the thing I did was a correct course of action, but I registered only that my mind quickly touched the thought of breaking and thought of accelerating without any deeper analysis. Decision was made in an instant and action followed without delay.
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...no time to marinade in fear. :)
Love that! :D
Decision was made in an instant and action followed without delay.
Yes.. I have experienced that myself - very different from other types of "decision making" that I have been rather ambivalent over. I used to have great difficulty in making decisions - would spend copious amounts of energy (both thought and emotional) over avoiding them.
I sourced that to a fear of "making a mistake" - in itself related to not wanting to take responsibility for a perceived potential or past "mistake". I have worked (and am working) long on that. And yet in certain situations - which were far more "critical". I could instantly decide and take action. It's as if there was no place for "mistakes" and hence there was no dithering around about responsibility - there was just straight forward response-ability.
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And yet in certain situations - which were far more "critical". I could instantly decide and take action. It's as if there was no place for "mistakes" and hence there was no dithering around about responsibility - there was just straight forward response-ability.
Strong stuff! :)
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Another example of such a emotionless and all-encompassing awareness I could draw from shooting (a pistol).
When I was inexperienced, I tended to expect a shot - narrowed my eyes, focused excessively on pulling the trigger, and was a bit of confused by the bang.
Yet with growing experience it all changed until one moment I caught myself shooting so that my both eyes were wide open, and at the moment of shot they registered slide moving back, and bullet hitting the target. The bang of shot became totally unimportant as became all other previous sources of tension.
I'd guess such an 'unblinking' awareness at the moment of passing the gate of death is one of preconditions for retaining awareness.
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Perhaps death is our door to freedom... so to speak :)
No it isn't and you are one of the few to know why.
The path to freedom is created while alive. Indeed. Even in the moment of Death, the warrior is alive. That is thanks to his or hers increased awareness. Not expanded awareness or spiritual connection, alive simply due to the increased awareness.
Simple, but difficult to obtain as long as the mitote continues.
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I don't think you can
call death a complete demarkation point, or a complete transformer.
Of course death is the final, most complete and ultimate transformation.
I suppose You still "think" too much May. How about to enter reality some day?
Reality for you means too meet the pain that you shuffled under the carpet long ago and to get in touch with your heart.
.~.
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Like both Nakashi and Erik have just stated, the key for me is awareness. So I work on becoming more aware. I have found that in situations of 'crisis', my awareness is heightened. When I had my car accident, I found myself in the same state of heightened awareness. I like to think that when death finds me, I will be in that state too.
See!
You are close.
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No it isn't and you are one of the few to know why.
The path to freedom is created while alive. Indeed. Even in the moment of Death, the warrior is alive. That is thanks to his or hers increased awareness. Not expanded awareness or spiritual connection, alive simply due to the increased awareness.
Simple, but difficult to obtain as long as the mitote continues.
That hit quite a punch! Thanks!
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That hit quite a punch! Thanks!
I agree, very well said!Another example of such a emotionless and all-encompassing awareness I could draw from shooting (a pistol).
When I was inexperienced, I tended to expect a shot - narrowed my eyes, focused excessively on pulling the trigger, and was a bit of confused by the bang.
Yet with growing experience it all changed until one moment I caught myself shooting so that my both eyes were wide open, and at the moment of shot they registered slide moving back, and bullet hitting the target. The bang of shot became totally unimportant as became all other previous sources of tension.
I'd guess such an 'unblinking' awareness at the moment of passing the gate of death is one of preconditions for retaining awareness.
Also very well said... thanks for sharing!
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That's precisely why it is so hard to accomplish what nakashi said - 'retain verything' or retain awareness. To do that, one must fundamentally transform one's way of living, one's very beingness.
Maybe for you it means this fundamental change, but as I have said elsewhere, something Anekee impressed upon me when we first started corresponding is that what is spiritual food for one at some certain point in time, may be complete poison for another.
Now, as for retaining 'everything', I either don't know what that means or it makes no sense to me. There is no everything to retain as far as I can see. This body comes and goes, these thoughts come and go - even these memry's too. When you switch it to say "maintaining awareness" or maybe
even to "developing Greater awareness" now! You have garnered my attention! ;D
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Now, as for retaining 'everything', I either don't know what that means or it makes no sense to me. There is no everything to retain as far as I can see. This body comes and goes, these thoughts come and go - even these memry's too. When you switch it to say "maintaining awareness" or maybe
even to "developing Greater awareness" now! You have garnered my attention! ;D
What is "awareness" to you, Mayflow? To me, it is "everything".