Restless Soma
Death (the tumbling force, public) => Decrease => Topic started by: ellen on January 22, 2007, 03:37:05 AM
-
Della/Orlando did a really good post over her place on Death as Advisor and morbidity if all wish to check it out: http://forums.delphiforums.com/shamansrattle/messages?msg=2013.1
I dont think death is a morbid deal, its a natural process. However, when unnatural events occur, or even conflict with the will of another(s), then may have to go to death as advisor and say "can't accept this - what can be done." I think if someone's not dead, something can be done, if we probe hard enough. That's probably how death teaches us, too, in such ways. In a way, how death taught me over the last month, dealing with this drama. Have to admit, death is an ultimate teacher. I don't really fear death; I can fear death taking away someone of my own which death has no business of doing. That's not in the plan, and I refuse to accept it.
Anyway, that's the post. Me, sure, if a train is seen a few feet away from me, not much can be done, but then there's the other, if you get a glimpse, see a way, an opening - then you've got time before the train hits, and you can shift things in another direction. I think death can, and does teach, we're not always meant to be helpless to what could manifest. That's how we learn about how the will operates when aligned with spirit.
-
That's not in the plan, and I refuse to accept it.
How would you know?
To refuse, is not to be in alignment - you contradict yourself most of the time.
-
How would you know?
To refuse, is not to be in alignment - you contradict yourself most of the time.
There have been times in my life when I have refused to accept 'whatever'. It rather depends what one is refusing. There are times when refusal brings one into alignment. And one just knows..
-
There have been times in my life when I have refused to accept 'whatever'. It rather depends what one is refusing. There are times when refusal brings one into alignment. And one just knows..
Sorry for you.
-
Sorry for you.
Why?
-
How would you know?
To refuse, is not to be in alignment - you contradict yourself most of the time.
I don't care. Besides, I got an opening anyway, so...
-
There have been times in my life when I have refused to accept 'whatever'. It rather depends what one is refusing. There are times when refusal brings one into alignment. And one just knows..
Sure, that is Wu Wei in action. The appropriate action (or many times - non-action) for the moment. To align with the Spirit, and with the Tao. To have a willingness to change and move and flow with the moment. This brings freshness of mind and thought. To ride a raft over the river is fitting, but to carry it around on dry land becomes a burden.
ONLY that sort of freedom of mind can lead you to the creation of the true double, which is not anything like what I have seen anyone on these forums speak about. ps I have not achieved this either, but RG has introduced me to the idea. In her words, I need to take baby steps in this direction before I can learn to walk, and the path is not at all set, but fluent and in constant change and metamorphosis.
-
Della/Orlando did a really good post over her place on Death as Advisor and morbidity if all wish to check it out: http://forums.delphiforums.com/shamansrattle/messages?msg=2013.1
I dont think death is a morbid deal, its a natural process. However, when unnatural events occur, or even conflict with the will of another(s), then may have to go to death as advisor and say "can't accept this - what can be done." I think if someone's not dead, something can be done, if we probe hard enough. That's probably how death teaches us, too, in such ways. In a way, how death taught me over the last month, dealing with this drama. Have to admit, death is an ultimate teacher. I don't really fear death; I can fear death taking away someone of my own which death has no business of doing. That's not in the plan, and I refuse to accept it.
Anyway, that's the post. Me, sure, if a train is seen a few feet away from me, not much can be done, but then there's the other, if you get a glimpse, see a way, an opening - then you've got time before the train hits, and you can shift things in another direction. I think death can, and does teach, we're not always meant to be helpless to what could manifest. That's how we learn about how the will operates when aligned with spirit.
recently i viewed on the net a beheading in Iraq performed by a fundamentalist group against an american. It was the most gruesome thing that I ever witnessed in my life. The shift that was a result of this incident for me personally is profound. (This is not a recomendation to go out and witness the video). In fact, I would not recommend it at all, to anyone. The disturbing effects of these images are only slightly out weighed by the benefit of seeing this in the context of death as an advisor. What shifted in me as a result, was just what exactly is really important to me in this life. I found an energy inside of me capable of grabbing the moments that I have with loved ones. This I think is part of what it teaches me. It is on the level of intent this occurs. this is how unfortunately I had to learn. Death as an advisor teaches me not on the level of mental, physical, or emotional levels. What it did for me this time was strengthen my values, and gave me the energy to express them accordingly.
what is truely fundamentally shaking about this is that I had my own idea of what a beheading is. that image is shattered now. in fact, allot of ideas have been crushed about what just death is.
-
That's sad Journey. Not only a painful and terrifying way to go, but to think of how psychotic someone must be to do that to someone, and videotape it, all to promote fear, then even claim it to be done for their bloodthirsty god. Makes me want to wretch thinking about things like that. It's sick.
-
yes it is all those things. and it is reality.
their values are like a UFO to me. i quander myself at times wondering if I should invest any time trying to understand just where they are coming from. i cannot justify anything gained from such an endeavor so far.
-
yes it is all those things. and it is reality.
their values are like a UFO to me. i quander myself at times wondering if I should invest any time trying to understand just where they are coming from. i cannot justify anything gained from such an endeavor so far.
Have you thought about the video clips filmed from the warheads of these high-precision weapons slamming into various targets? From the targeting cameras of attack aircraft showing how 500 lb bomb detonates in the midst of a crowd?
It is all the same.
Air is full of such information - beheadings, blowing to pieces, school shootings, etc.
That's what sells - main news stories.
-
yes it is all those things. and it is reality.
their values are like a UFO to me. i quander myself at times wondering if I should invest any time trying to understand just where they are coming from. i cannot justify anything gained from such an endeavor so far.
I think best I can think of, its brainwashing, at its finest. Hate promoting more hatred. You know its madness when human beings can't see themselves in another human being. The divisions of religion, race, country, separate so strongly people cannot see the other as human anymore. Which only makes those who do such things inhuman, no conscious, no remorse. How people can think any god would want such things to be done is injust. Who would want to worship a god like that in the first place.
-
I think best I can think of, its brainwashing, at its finest. Hate promoting more hatred. You know its madness when human beings can't see themselves in another human being. The divisions of religion, race, country, separate so strongly people cannot see the other as human anymore. Which only makes those who do such things inhuman, no conscious, no remorse. How people can think any god would want such things to be done is injust. Who would want to worship a god like that in the first place.
It is but one side of a coin.
Strong beliefs that glorify death and the afterlife have a way of negating life.
Mythology is full of bloodthirsty gods - it is all about perception and how we 'action' that perception.
-
Have you thought about the video clips filmed from the warheads of these high-precision weapons slamming into various targets? From the targeting cameras of attack aircraft showing how 500 lb bomb detonates in the midst of a crowd?
It is all the same.
Air is full of such information - beheadings, blowing to pieces, school shootings, etc.
That's what sells - main news stories.
first of all, yes i have thought of this. but still, there are more humane ways of taking someones head off. this is a sad truth that i learned the other day.
and yes, these videos of beheadings are on DVD's on video store shelves in Iraq are the TOP seller. (did you know that?)
i am not buying any of it. but it is still happening. whether it sells or not. this is not the question. the question is, what is one to do?
-
That's what sells - main news stories.
Unfortunate, though true.
It is also a great medium to project on 'other'...
-
Have you thought about the video clips filmed from the warheads of these high-precision weapons slamming into various targets? From the targeting cameras of attack aircraft showing how 500 lb bomb detonates in the midst of a crowd?
It is all the same.
Air is full of such information - beheadings, blowing to pieces, school shootings, etc.
That's what sells - main news stories.
first of all, yes i have thought of this. but still, there are more humane ways of taking someones head off. this is a sad truth that i learned the other day.
and yes, these videos of beheadings are on DVD's on video store shelves in Iraq are the TOP seller. (did you know that?)
i am not buying any of it. but it is still happening. whether it sells or not. this is not the question. the question is, what is one to do?
You know, from the perspective of the person on the other side, the difference might be not that considerable after all.
Like one military chap from Pentagon put it (after being asked about helping Saddam to produce chemical weapons and use them): 'What's the difference from the perspective of the dead - was it bullet or a gas?'
I'm not being specifically anti-American here, it is just one of the good examples.
There are dozens and dozens more in the history of war.
Endless number of examples.
Yet we live with it.
There is no way over and around it.
I found my way after going through all of it - meditating and sensing and studying what war means.
In its full brutality.
Getting a grasp of what this unlimited violence means.
After that it was not a problem any more.
The way is always directly through the thick of it.
-
first of all, yes i have thought of this. but still, there are more humane ways of taking someones head off. this is a sad truth that i learned the other day.
A more humane way to taking off someone's head? Head's still gone.
the question is, what is one to do?
About what?
-
There is no way over and around it.
I found my way after going through all of it - meditating and sensing what war means.
Getting a grasp of what this unlimited violence means.
After that it was not a problem any more.
The way is always directly through the thick of it.
Yes.
-
You know, from the perspective of the person on the other side, the difference might be not that considerable after all.
Like one military chap from Pentagon put it (after being asked about helping Saddam to produce chemical weapons and use them): 'What's the difference from the perspective of the dead - was it bullet or a gas?'
I suppose that is one way to look at it. The difference from the point of view from the living though would be the combatant and the innocent. my view is subjective since i am part of the living..
-
These are hard things to grasp.
One thing that might facilitate under-standing and coming to terms with it, is meditating on one's own death.
If you want, I can look it up and post it here.
-
These are hard things to grasp.
One thing that might facilitate under-standing and coming to terms with it, is meditating on one's own death.
If you want, I can look it up and post it here.
That'll work
-
I'll post meditation later (I'm at work now).
Take care, man!
-
ok. (and thank you) 8)
-
Tibetan Buddhist meditation on death.
Purpose: to overcome the attachment to worldly activities
Preparation: relax, pacify your mind
Contemplation: We think 'I shall definitely die. There is no way to prevent my body from finally decaying. Day by day, moment by moment, my life is slipping away. I have no idea when I shall die. The time of death is completely uncertain. Many young people die before their parents, some die the moment they are born - there is no certainty in this world. Furthermore, there are so many causes of untimely death. The lives of many strong and healthy people are destroyed by accidents. There is no guarantee that I shall not die today.'
Meditation: After contemplating these points we mentally repeat over and over again: 'I may die today, I may die today', and contentrate on the feeling it evokes. Eventually we shall come to conclusion 'Since I shall soon have to depart from this world, there is no sense in my becoming attached to worldly enjoyments. Instead, I will devote my whole life to practice of Dharma.' We then meditate on this conclusion for as long as we can.
Meditation break: During the meditation break we should try to practice Dharma without laziness. Realizing that worldly pleasures are deceptive and that they distract us from using our life in a meaningful way, we should abandon attachment to them. In this way we can eliminate the main obstacle to pure Dharma practice.
...
Well, that's the 'official' thing.
You can modify it so as to concentrate on the first part - the feeling evoked by realisation that death can come at any moment and take anyone you know - including yourself.
Or if you find any other part useful - use it.
-
Tibetan Buddhist meditation on death.
Purpose: to overcome the attachment to worldly activities
Preparation: relax, pacify your mind
Contemplation: We think 'I shall definitely die. There is no way to prevent my body from finally decaying. Day by day, moment by moment, my life is slipping away. I have no idea when I shall die. The time of death is completely uncertain. Many young people die before their parents, some die the moment they are born - there is no certainty in this world. Furthermore, there are so many causes of untimely death. The lives of many strong and healthy people are destroyed by accidents. There is no guarantee that I shall not die today.'
Meditation: After contemplating these points we mentally repeat over and over again: 'I may die today, I may die today', and contentrate on the feeling it evokes. Eventually we shall come to conclusion 'Since I shall soon have to depart from this world, there is no sense in my becoming attached to worldly enjoyments. Instead, I will devote my whole life to practice of Dharma.' We then meditate on this conclusion for as long as we can.
Meditation break: During the meditation break we should try to practice Dharma without laziness. Realizing that worldly pleasures are deceptive and that they distract us from using our life in a meaningful way, we should abandon attachment to them. In this way we can eliminate the main obstacle to pure Dharma practice.
...
Well, that's the 'official' thing.
You can modify it so as to concentrate on the first part - the feeling evoked by realisation that death can come at any moment and take anyone you know - including yourself.
Or if you find any other part useful - use it.
Just become suicidal , its far easier and the pay off is great
-
Just become suicidal , its far easier and the pay off is great
It's depressing and whilst I respect the Tibetan buddhists, I could never really groove with the death theme, their brand. Best lucid dreaming techniques around. Dalai Lama I respect. But Zen I find more peace with. Tibetan is very concerned with the moment of death, the "Toltec of Buddhism." Mayahana more the metaphysical. Zen is concerned with it, but more practical and simple. Satori. That's it. And be ordinary. Let it go.
Lotus sutra is better. I look at a Lotus, that's zen. That's it. Death meditations - can't always be talking to that particular advisor.
(http://www.lotus.org/images/lg/lt_flower/Lotus.jpg)
-
Just become suicidal , its far easier and the pay off is great
It frequently happens among those who cannot accept a fact that human life is guided by something much larger than wishes, desires and beliefs of little ego. I haven't seen suicidal Tibetan Buddhists. On the contrary, they seem to smile and laugh form the bottom of their hearts much more frequently than 'civilised westerners'. Full realisation and acceptance of the cosmic truth about death makes one free. The meditation merely reflects that truth. If it is not accepted - fear will dominate every moment of existence.
-
It is interesting that meditation on death is closly linked with one's belief's also - otherwise there would be no need to mediate on death. Perhaps that accounts for the smiling Tibetan Buddhists? It kind of forms an alignment. Buddhist thought is on the impermanance of earthly life (simplified for of course there is more to it). Relief always brings smiles.
Having been through both meditations on death and suicidal tendencies, I have found that death is as mysterious to me as life. The value of death as an advisor to me is that I don't know it, and it is there to remind me of that.
Human life may be "guided by more than the wishes, desires, and beliefs of the little ego" - then again it may be not. It is the unknowable for that very reason. "Returning" from meditation, from dreaming, the mind takes over... that which is experienced can never really be expressed -though not through lack of trying. I suppose thats really why 'life' is the experience of all experiences..
One day we'll know.. until then, death is a good advisor to have - the ultimate unknowable.
-
You use the word 'unknowable', but is it the thing you mean?
Death is rather 'unknown' (though experienced many times previously) as is our true nature and the core purpose of our human life.
You wrote yourself:
But if the man sloughs off his tiredness, and lives his fate though, he can then be called a man of knowledge, if only for the brief moment when he succeeds in fighting off his last, invincible enemy. That moment of clarity, power, and knowledge is enough.
Then you'll know.
-
You use the word 'unknowable', but is it the thing you mean?
Death is rather 'unknown' (though experienced many times previously) as is our true nature and the core purpose of our human life.
You wrote yourself:
Then you'll know.
Yes, you have a point there.
Unknowable vs Unknown. I am not sure about that.. sometimes I feel that to the 'me' I know it would be unknowable. To the 'me' that I don't know, it would be an unknown.
Death expresses itself in many different ways - intellectually, and experientially, I can understand having 'died' to many things - but Death, with a capital D is something I have not experienced in it's entirety - though there were times on my path when I have wondered whether the life I am living is not a life in one bardo or another.. and Death a moment that spans infinity, much as life does - for my moment is always the moment and Death implies (to me) the end of a never ending moment. To the "me" that is currently in awareness, that moment is unknowable.
-
At the moment I am trying (rather desperately) to start up my world again... stopping the world is one thing.. how does it start up again, without going back into the same world?
-
Do simple things.
Let go, try not guide the world.
We gain only by letting it all go.
-
Do simple things.
Let go, try not guide the world.
We gain only by letting it all go.
Ok - thanks :)
-
I am not sure about that.. sometimes I feel that to the 'me' I know it would be unknowable. To the 'me' that I don't know, it would be an unknown.
A little Buddhist puzzle for you. :)
Who is the 'I' that feels, who is the 'I' that knows your 'me'?
Who is the 'I' that does not know your 'me'?
Who is 'me'?
-
A little Buddhist puzzle for you. :)
Who is the 'I' that feels, who is the 'I' that knows your 'me'?
Who is the 'I' that does not know your 'me'?
Who is 'me'?
That little puzzle nearly flipped me once.. or perhaps it did!
Seems like it's time to revisit it.. :)
-
:)
-
It is interesting that meditation on death is closly linked with one's belief's also - otherwise there would be no need to mediate on death. Perhaps that accounts for the smiling Tibetan Buddhists? It kind of forms an alignment. Buddhist thought is on the impermanance of earthly life (simplified for of course there is more to it). Relief always brings smiles.
Having been through both meditations on death and suicidal tendencies, I have found that death is as mysterious to me as life. The value of death as an advisor to me is that I don't know it, and it is there to remind me of that.
Human life may be "guided by more than the wishes, desires, and beliefs of the little ego" - then again it may be not. It is the unknowable for that very reason. "Returning" from meditation, from dreaming, the mind takes over... that which is experienced can never really be expressed -though not through lack of trying. I suppose thats really why 'life' is the experience of all experiences..
One day we'll know.. until then, death is a good advisor to have - the ultimate unknowable.
I think though, I wouldn't want an individual who has suicidal tendencies meditating on death. Might be a bit much. Course might need more therapy than meditation. Definitely need something.
I'm sure the smiling has to do with some of these things. There's still a lot of peace on the path. The Dharma will make a Buddhist smile. Usually.
-
A little Buddhist puzzle for you. :)
Who is the 'I' that feels, who is the 'I' that knows your 'me'?
Who is the 'I' that does not know your 'me'?
Who is 'me'?
There is no "I" in Buddhism.
-
That little puzzle nearly flipped me once.. or perhaps it did!
Seems like it's time to revisit it.. :)
No wonder.
That contemplation is part of the hardest Buddhist meditation - on realisation of emptiness and superior seeing.
First contemplation
The emptiness of I
Identifying the object of negation
Although we grasp at an inherently existent I all the time, even during sleep, it is not easy to identify how it appears to our mind. To identify it clearly we must begin by allowing it to manifest strongly by contemplating situations in which we have an exaggerated sense of I, such as when we are embarrassed , ashamed, afraid, or indignant. We recall or imagine such a situation and then, without any comment or analysis try to attain a clear mental image of how the I naturally appears at such times. We have to be patient at this stage because it may take many sessions before we attain a clear image. Eventually we shall see that the I appears to be completely solid and real, existing from its own side without depending upon the body or the mind. This vividly appearing I is the inherently existent I that we cherish so strongly. It is the I that we defend when we are criticised, and that we are so proud of when we are praised.
Once we have an image of how the I appears in these extreme circumstances, we should try to identify how it appears normally, in less extreme situations. For example, we can observe the I that is presently meditating and try to discover how it appears to our mind. Eventually we shall see that although in this case there is not such an inflated sense of I, nevertheless the I still appears to be inherently existent, existing from its own side without depending upon the body or the mind.
Once we have ans image of the inherently existent I, we focus on it for a while with single-pointed concentration, and the proceed to the second stage.
-
Just become suicidal , its far easier and the pay off is great
To become suicidal is no option for a sound being.
Easier than what? Pay off for what?
-
Death expresses itself in many different ways - intellectually, and experientially, I can understand having 'died' to many things - but Death, with a capital D is something I have not experienced in it's entirety -
Then do like this Daphne,
take a glass that u are used to drink from - imagine that the glass is you and your tonal.
Stand before a wall and imagine the whole sequence were you take the glass and throw it in the wall. Where are you? Where is your Tonal when the glass has hit the wall?
That is Death.
For me and anyone else.
-
Additionally, James van Praagh that has worked as a medium on a preofessional basis and written the bestseller "Talking to Heaven" etc. wrote about a special encounter in one of his books.
The story was like this:
One evening he was contacted by a guide to a recently dead soul. The guide were in the form of a beautiful African woman, which has no importance for the story, but it was she who addressed van Praagh. The guy who had died was a middle aged man and the guide wanted van Praagh to convince this guy that he was dead. I mean the astral guide - on the other side - had to "go back" with her client to make assure that he was dead. "You must help me sir, he won't believe that he is dead" appealed the guide. The whole transformation can turn out to be that "funny".
Yes, it does give that strange twist to things.. :)
-
Then do like this Daphne,
take a glass that u are used to drink from - imagine that the glass is you and your tonal.
Stand before a wall and imagine the whole sequence were you take the glass and throw it in the wall. Where are you? Where is your Tonal when the glass has hit the wall?
That is Death.
For me and anyone else.
I've done something similar - with eggs... :)
-
I've done something similar - with eggs... :)
In your imagination?
-
In your imagination?
No. Real eggs.. :)
-
No wonder.
That contemplation is part of the hardest Buddhist meditation - on realisation of emptiness and superior seeing.
First contemplation
The emptiness of I
Identifying the object of negation
Although we grasp at an inherently existent I all the time, even during sleep, it is not easy to identify how it appears to our mind. To identify it clearly we must begin by allowing it to manifest strongly by contemplating situations in which we have an exaggerated sense of I, such as when we are embarrassed , ashamed, afraid, or indignant. We recall or imagine such a situation and then, without any comment or analysis try to attain a clear mental image of how the I naturally appears at such times. We have to be patient at this stage because it may take many sessions before we attain a clear image. Eventually we shall see that the I appears to be completely solid and real, existing from its own side without depending upon the body or the mind. This vividly appearing I is the inherently existent I that we cherish so strongly. It is the I that we defend when we are criticised, and that we are so proud of when we are praised.
Once we have an image of how the I appears in these extreme circumstances, we should try to identify how it appears normally, in less extreme situations. For example, we can observe the I that is presently meditating and try to discover how it appears to our mind. Eventually we shall see that although in this case there is not such an inflated sense of I, nevertheless the I still appears to be inherently existent, existing from its own side without depending upon the body or the mind.
Once we have ans image of the inherently existent I, we focus on it for a while with single-pointed concentration, and the proceed to the second stage.
Refuting the object of negation
If the I exists in the way it appears, it must exist in one of the four ways: as the body, as the mind, as the collection of the body and mind, or as something separate from the body and mind. There's no other possibility. We contemplate this carefully until we become convinced that this is the case and then we proceed to examine each of the four possibilities:
1. If I is the body, there is no sense saying 'my body', because the possessor and possessed are identical. If I is the body, there is no rebirth because the I ceases to when the body dies. If I and the body are identical, then since we are capable of developing faith, dreaming, solving mathematical puzzles, and so on, it follows that flesh, blood, and bones can do the same. Since none of this is true, it follows that the I is not the body.
2. If the I is the mind, there is no sense in saying 'my mind', because the possessor and possessed are identical; but usually when we focus on our mind we say 'my mind'. This clearly indicates that the I is not the mind. If the I is the mind, then since each person has many types of mind, such as six consciousnesses, conceptual minds, and non-conceptual minds, it follows that each person has just as many I's. Since this is absurd, it follows that I is not the mind.
3. Since body is not the I and the mind is not the I, the collection of the body and mind cannot be I. The collection of body and mind is a collection of things that are not the I, so how can the collection itself be I? For example, in a herd of cows none of the animals is a sheep, therefore the herd itself is not the sheep. In the same way, in the collection of the body and mind, neither the body and mind is the I, therefore the collection itself is not the I.
You may find this point difficult to understand, but if you think about it for a long time with calm and positive mind, and discuss it with more experienced practitioners, it will gradually become clear to you.
4. If the I is not the body, not the mind, and not the collection of body and mind, the only possibility that remains is that it is something separate form the body and mind. If this is the case, we must be able to apprehend the I without either the body or mind appearing, but if we imagine our body and our mind were completely to disappear there would be nothing remaining that could be called I. Therefore it follows that the I is not separate from the body and mind.
We should imagine that our body gradually dissolves into thin air, and then our mind dissolves, our thoughts scatter with the wind, our feelings, wishes, and awareness melt into nothingness. Is there anything left that is the I? There is nothing. Clearly the I is not something separate from the body and mind.
We have now examined all four possibilities and have failed to find the I. Since we have already decided that there is no fifth possibility, we must conclude that the truly existent, or inherently existent I that normally appears so vividly does not exist at all. Where there previously appeared an inherently existent I, there now appears an absence of that I. This absence of an inherently existent I is emptiness, ultimate truth.
Meditation
We contemplate in this way until there appears to our mind a generic image of the absence of inherently existent I. This image is our object of placement meditation. We try to become completely familiar with it by concentrating on it single-pointedly for as long as possible. Because we have grasped at an inherently existent I since beginningless time, and have cherished it more dearly than anything else, the experience of failing to find the I in meditation can be quite shocking at first. Some people develop fear, thinking that they have become completely non-existent. Others feel great joy, as if the source of all their problems is vanishing. Both reactions are good signs and indicate correct meditation. After a while, these initial reactions will subside and our mind will settle into a more balanced state. Then we shall be able to meditate on emptiness in a calm, controlled manner. We should allow our mind to become absorbed in space-like emptiness for as long as possible. It is important to remember that our object is emptiness, the absence of inherently existent I, not mere nothingness. Occasionally we should check our meditation with alertness. If our mind has wandered to another object, or if we have lost the meaning of emptiness and are focusing on nothingness, we should return to the contemplations to bring emptiness clearly to mind once again.
We must keep in mind that the I that exists is mere concept and designation imputed by conceptual mind to the collection of body and mind. As long as we are aware that the I is mere concept and imputation, we can be sure that the inherently existent I created by the self-grasping mind will not dominate our awareness.
-
~
Browsing, again looking for something else, I found this bit:
Now take the question of death which is an immense problem to most people. You know death, there it is walking every day by your side. Is it possible to meet it so completely that you do not make a problem of it at all? In order to meet it in such a way all belief, all hope, all fear about it must come to an end, otherwise you are meeting this extraordinary thing with a conclusion, an image, with a premeditated anxiety, and therefore you are meeting it with time.
Time is the interval between the observer and the observed. That is, the observer, you, is afraid to meet this thing called death. You don't know what it means; you have all kinds of hopes and theories about it; you believe in reincarnation or resurrection, or in something called the soul, the atman, a spiritual entity which is timeless and which you call by different names. Now have you found out for yourself whether there is a soul? Or is it an idea that has been handed down to you? Is there something permanent, continuous, which is beyond thought? If thought can think about it, it is within the field of thought and therefore it cannot be permanent because there is nothing permanent within the field of thought. To discover that nothing is permanent is of tremendous importance for only then is the mind free, then you can look, and in that there is great joy.
You cannot be frightened of the unknown because you do not know what the unknown is and so there is nothing to be frightened of. Death is a word, and it is the word, the image, that creates fear. So can you look at death without the image of death? As long as the image exists from which springs thought, thought must always create fear. Then you either rationalize your fear of death and build a resistance against the inevitable or you invent innumerable beliefs to protect you from the fear of death. Hence there is a gap between you and the thing of which you are afraid. In this time-space interval there must be conflict which is fear, anxiety and self-pity. Thought, which breeds the fear of death, says, `Let's postpone it, let's avoid it, keep it as far away as possible, let's not think about it' - but you are thinking about it. When you say, `I won't think about it', you have already thought out how to avoid it. You are frightened of death because you have postponed it.
We have separated living from dying, and the interval between the living and the dying is fear. That interval, that time, is created by fear. Living is our daily torture, daily insult, sorrow and confusion, with occasional opening of a window over enchanted seas. That is what we call living, and we are afraid to die, which is to end this misery. We would rather cling to the known than face the unknown - the known being our house, our furniture, our family, our character, our work, our knowledge, our fame, our loneliness, our gods - that little thing that moves around incessantly within itself with its own limited pattern of embittered existence.
We think that living is always in the present and that dying is something that awaits us at a distant time. But we have never questioned whether this battle of everyday life is living at all. We want to know the truth about reincarnation, we want proof of the survival of the soul, we listen to the assertion of clairvoyants and to the conclusions of psychical research, but we never ask, never, how to live - to live with delight, with enchantment, with beauty every day. We have accepted life as it is with all its agony and despair and have got used to it, and think of death as some- thing to be carefully avoided. But death is extraordinarily like life when we know how to live. You cannot live without dying. You cannot live if you do not die psychologically every minute. This is not an intellectual paradox. To live completely, wholly, every day as if it were a new loveliness, there must be dying to everything of yesterday, otherwise you live mechanically, and a mechanical mind can never know what love is or what freedom is.
Most of us are frightened of dying because we don't know what it means to live. We don't know how to live, therefore we don't know how to die. As long as we are frightened of life we shall be frightened of death. The man who is not frightened of life is not frightened of being completely insecure for he understands that inwardly, psychologically, there is no security. When there is no security there is an endless movement and then life and death are the same. The man who lives without conflict, who lives with beauty and love, is not frightened of death because to love is to die.
If you die to everything you know, including your family, your memory, everything you have felt, then death is a purification, a rejuvenating process; then death brings innocence and it is only the innocent who are passionate, not the people who believe or who want to find out what happens after death.
To find out actually what takes place when you die you must die. This isn't a joke. You must die - not physically but psychologically, inwardly, die to the things you have cherished and to the things you are bitter about. If you have died to one of your pleasures, the smallest or the greatest, naturally, without any enforcement or argument, then you will know what it means to die. To die is to have a mind that is completely empty of itself, empty of its daily longing, pleasure; and agonies. Death is a renewal, a mutation, in which thought does not function at all because thought is old. When there is death there is something totally new. Freedom from the known is death, and then you are living.
FWIW...Looks very similiar to that Toltec dude in regards to Losing Personal History and Death as an Advisor ;)
Freedom From The Known
Krishnamurti
-
~
Perhaps the deepest reason why we are afraid of death is because we do not know who we are. We believe in a personal, unique, and seperate identity - but if we dare to examine it, we find that this identiy depends entirely on an endless collection of things to prop it up: our name, our "biography," our partners, family, home, job, friends, credit cards...It is on their fragile and transient support that we rely for our security. So when they are all taken away, will we have any idea of who we really are?
Without our familiar props, we are faced with just ourselves, a person we do not know, an unnerving stranger with whom we have been living all the time but we never really wanted to meet. Isn't that why we have tried to fill every moment of time with noise and activity, however boring or trivial, to ensure that we are never left in slience with this stranger on our own?
Sogyal Rinpoche
-
Certainly, but we deny this and say we do know who we are, because then we can also fantasize we're permanent beings who will never really lose that peremanency.
Permanency, there is a shot, but it wont be from the *I* or the physical body, we dont take any of this with us, and lucid dreaming say, shows how difficult it is, and how much work it will take.
Like right about Good friday, I had my lucid dream trying to wake up my physical body, touching my head yelling 'wake up!' at the thing. Over and over, lol. Lucid dreaming proves to me, we have something going on, but we're attached for now to that body - and its impermanent, but we still call it 'ours,' when really our bodies are on loan, for a little while.
Id like to talk to the savings and loan that gave me my body, heh.
-
Even death is not to be feared by one who has lived wisely.
~Buddha
-
Death is a Dialogue between
The Spirit and the Dust.
"Dissolve" says Death—The Spirit "Sir
I have another Trust"—
Death doubts it—Argues from the Ground—
The Spirit turns away
Just laying off for evidence
An Overcoat of Clay.
~Emily Dickenson
-
All but Death, can be Adjusted—
Dynasties repaired—
Systems—settled in their Sockets—
Citadels—dissolved—
Wastes of Lives—resown with Colors
By Succeeding Springs—
Death—unto itself—Exception—
Is exempt from Change—
~Emily Dickenson
-
A warrior thinks of his death when things become unclear. The idea of death is the only thing that tempers our spirit.
Death is everywhere. It may be the headlights of a car on a hilltop in the distance behind. They may remain visible for a while, and disappear into the darkness as if they had been scooped away; only to appear on another hilltop, and then disappear again.
Those are the lights on the head of death. Death puts them on like a hat and then shoots off on a gallop, gaining on us, getting closer and closer. Sometimes it turns off its lights. But death never stops.
~CC
-
But death never stops.
~CC
Never?
-
Never?
Is there an infinite?
How could there be an infinite without death?
-
Is there an infinite?
How could there be an infinite without death?
Ok, now you've got my attention ;)
Could you explain this a bit further?
-
Ok, now you've got my attention ;)
Could you explain this a bit further?
Look at your avatar - its moving.
If there was no death all would be stasis, then thered be no infinite, just stasis, no movement, no life.
Life and Death are as inseparable as yin and yang.
The finite, and the infinite. How could we know the infinite without knowing what is finite?
-
Keep 'in mind' too Kris, from A Separate Reality DJ said: "Your problem is that you want to understand everything, and that is not possible. If you insist on understanding you're not considering your entire life as a human being. Your stumbling block is intact... you are chained to reason."
-
~
Hi Ellen.
You've brought a lot to the table here and I'd love to discuss this with you. You'll have to bear with my slow responses though. A tremendous experience came my way last night and I'm still reeling from it. As Angela wiped tears from my face last night telling me what a bitch Maya is, it's becomming a bit more clear. Another big chunk of 'me' fell away and I'm feeling a bit vulnerable at the moment, as well as having a tough time piecing anything together that 'makes sense.'
This 'experience' I label 'me' is still on a roller coaster ride.
K
-
~
Hi Ellen.
You've brought a lot to the table here and I'd love to discuss this with you. You'll have to bear with my slow responses though. A tremendous experience came my way last night and I'm still reeling from it. As Angela wiped tears from my face last night telling me what a bitch Maya is, it's becomming a bit more clear. Another big chunk of 'me' fell away and I'm feeling a bit vulnerable at the moment, as well as having a tough time piecing anything together that 'makes sense.'
This 'experience' I label 'me' is still on a roller coaster ride.
K
There is a private section and you can pm me if you wanna talk about it you know?
-
~
Thank you.
We'll see.
-
Best time to talk is when you're most vulnerable...
http://www.youtube.com/v/9BBDexSzmMM&hl=en&fs=1&color1=0x006699&color2=0x54abd6
-
"When it comes time to die, be not like those whose hearts are filled with the fear of death, so when their time comes they weep and pray for a little more time to live their lives over again in a different way. Sing your death song, and die like a hero going home."
Chief Aupumut, Mohican. 1725