Topic: Tolle’s “A New Earth”

[Jaharkta]

There's a rather thought provoking little book... The Sunflower, by Simon Wiesenthal - on the possibilities ands limits of forgiveness.

I'll bet that is thought-provoking!
 
Simon Wiesenthal

[Michael]

It seems to me that there would come a point in one's path wherein "forgiveness" simply isn't necessary....

good post and insights

[Michael]

Seems like an act of pure folly to ask this of person C, who has nothing whatever to do with my wrongdoings or negotiations. And yet ... there is this existence of pure, unconditional love, which shone upon the beggar can indeed pull him out of the shitter. Some people have that .. by virtue of their enormous shakti, or sometimes by virtue of their place in our lives. And, if we are lucky, we can be "blessed" by their "forgiveness".  It's a kind of absolution, and probably the thing upon which the Confessional was based, many moons ago. Though it's never as simple as 20 'Hail Mary's'.

To have that unconditional love in one's life is not the end-all solution, though -- it's just a temporary life-saver.  We still must do the work. We have to repair that fence! But, this shakti can save a life .. can give one the temporary balance to walk the tightrope across the abyss in the pitch-black. It has enormous value, in other words. But is it "forgiveness"?  No, it's Love. And a rare, rare thing in this world, even for our best aspirations.   We misunderstand it, most of the time.

Interesting take,
some thoughts which flow for me...

Did God demonstrate his love for Jesus by sending him to crucifixion?

Can love be brutal?

I recall a Sufi story, where a man came to a teacher to join as his student. The teacher asked, why did he leave his previous teacher? The man replied that his previous teacher was too hard, and all he got was abuse.

The teacher then said, yes, you can join as my student and you will find it much easier, but let me warn you, I will never love you as much as your previous teacher.

As this story goes, the man returned to his previous teacher, but me thinks that was a very unusual man.

[Jaharkta]

Can love be brutal?

So it would seem, M, yes: great love and great brutality can abound together!

[littlefeather]

I think forgiveness gets very misunderstood. 

Whether we call it forgiveness, surrender, or acceptance is not important.   What matters is that we let go of anything unhealthy that we are holding  and that may be holding us (back) from reaching toward better things. 

[littlefeather]

Well, I am happy to say that it hasn't been all that complex for me.   I found, once I stopped holding on (to any number of things) and just let it go  I am freer, lighter, happier.
And that, in turn makes many more things possible (for me).

Peace
 

[zenandnow]

Well, I am happy to say that it hasn't been all that complex for me.   I found, once I stopped holding on (to any number of things) and just let it go  I am freer, lighter, happier.
And that, in turn makes many more things possible (for me).

Peace
 

Never said it didn't. 

Is it ok with you if I have views that don't match yours?  Its not personal, I promise you. 

Love you.

[littlefeather]

Never said it didn't. 

 I am not implying that you did say it didn't.   
   I just am  giving my views and experiences on things.   

Is it ok with you if I have views that don't match yours?   

Love you.

That's a silly question.

Its not personal, I promise you

No worries.  I'm not taking anything personally.  Though it does interest me slightly that you made several  attempts at manipulating my words and responses (reactions?) in this post/thread.   Intriguing. 
 

Have a good day

[zenandnow]

Zen&Now said: "Is it ok with you if I have views that don't match yours?"

That's a silly question.

Then maybe I should clarify the question, is it ok (with you) if I have views that don't match yours?

No worries.  I'm not taking anything personally. 

Educate me...what would it matter if you did (or didn't) take things personally???   

Love you.

[Jaharkta]

Zen&Now said: "Is it ok with you if I have views that don't match yours?"Then maybe I should clarify the question, is it ok (with you) if I have views that don't match yours?
Educate me...what would it matter if you did (or didn't) take things personally???   

Love you.

The ships have all sailed, zen --- what are you clinging to?

[≈*≈]

That stuff on grievance is very true

It is ...
"The past has no power to stop you from being present now. Only your
grievance about the past can do that. And what is a grievance? The baggage
of old thought and emotion."

[littlefeather]

It is ...
"The past has no power to stop you from being present now. Only your
grievance about the past can do that. And what is a grievance? The baggage
of old thought and emotion."

Oooh!

Excellent and timely.  Nice work Panthera!

 

[≈*≈]

I posted this elsewhere and I'd like to put it here because it was a morph from Tolle to now ...

I read Tolle's books and now I'm reading Jed McKenna. I keep going 'further', as McKenna calls it, and I run into things like this:

“Look here, there is no present to the structure of the ‘you’; all that is there is the past, which is trying to project itself into the future. You can think about the past, present, and future, but there is no future, there is no present. There is only the past. Your future is only a projection of the past. If there is a present, that present can never be experienced by you, because you experience only your knowledge about the present, and that knowledge is the past.

So what is the point in trying to experience that moment which you call ‘now’? The now can never be experienced by you; whatever you experience is not the now. So the now is a thing which can never become a part of your conscious existence, and which you cannot give expression to. The now does not exist, as far as you are concerned, except as a concept. I don’t talk about the now.

Courage is to brush aside everything that man has experienced and felt before you. You are the only one, greater than all those things. Everything is finished, the whole tradition is finished, however sacred and holy it may be – then only can you be yourself – that is individuality. For the first time you become an individual. As long as you depend on somebody, some authority, you are not an individual. Individual uniqueness cannot express itself as long as there is dependence.”

U.G. Krishnamurti

And this by the same person:

"I am always negating what I am saying. I make a statement, but that statement is not expressing all that is being said, so I negate it. You say that I am contradicting myself. I am not contradictory at all. I negate the first statement, the second statement, and all the other statements - that is why sometimes it sounds very contradictory. I am negating it all the time, not with the idea of arriving at any point; just negating. There is no purpose in my talking."

I've read past posts or journaling and think, Who wrote this - this doesn't sound like "me". Because it's Not ... It's only the 'illusion' that I label 'me'. 

It's a continual dismantling.   No .... It's more like a search and destroy mission! I remember reading cc and what dJ said about "clearing the tonal". It's much more than just 'clearing'. It's the entire annihilation of everything you Know to be True. A Crash and Burn. There's nothing pretty about it. Nothing 'blissful', or 'comforting'. It's the tearing down of everything you are, the 'likes', And the 'dislikes' ... as well as the 'hates', and the 'loves' ... that's the toughy ... the 'loves' - what/who do you "love"? All of it must go - Gut it out entirely. Stripped down to the bone, and then watch as the bones burn to ash.

Working on it.  Kicking my ass ...

 

[Michael]

“You can think about the past, present, and future, but there is no future, there is no present. There is only the past. Your future is only a projection of the past. If there is a present, that present can never be experienced by you, because you experience only your knowledge about the present, and that knowledge is the past.

So what is the point in trying to experience that moment which you call ‘now’? The now can never be experienced by you; whatever you experience is not the now."
U.G. Krishnamurti

This part is correct. Always we interpret. I don't hold that the 'now' is not available to us, seeing as we are registering it constantly, as the base consciousness. Yet a nano-second after, we have 'arranged' it. And everything is built on that arrangement.

Our first journey is to dive to that nano-second. To sneak under.

But it is nonetheless true that everything we know about the world, ourselves and the future, is a predicate of our congealed past. That is why we have to do so much work on our past - dig out the 'sleepers', re-work our 'history, drop our 'history', educate ourselves with the right input, to gain some control over this 'congealed thing' called our past.

We have to do that, because our arrangement is of vital importance.

I am not one who holds up the experience of the 'now' as definitive, sufficient and absolute. There are two sides to our brain. We also have the task of constructing a new world which has value and meaning, and relates all down the line to our primary purpose - plus we need to have a primary purpose.

A purpose that is not just a fig-leaf over our criminal past, where we speak fancy words, but demonstrate to all who have any eyes in the back of their neck, that we remain the same old stupid idiot we have always been. That is what rebuilding our past is all about, and to the extent we succeed or fail in that task, determines our fate.

Plus, unless we reduce the criminality of 'our past' to misdemeanour, it will never allow us free to experience what part of 'now' is available to us. Our past is the Great Mafia in our life - just look at the posts on this forum, and watch as everyone retells who they are over and over.

Also watch the viciousness of people's individual Mafia. Look at those who use deception cloaked in honey. Those are the worst Mafia, for they try to enslave you, like spiders, they invite you into their web, all smiles and grins and love-heart badges. Then there are those who enslave you by fighting against you, where they trap you in their web while pretending to be antagonistic - the more you struggle, the more entangled.

People are only entrapping you in the very web they are caught in themselves - what we witness is the web of the criminal past of each person. Look for those who are only misdemeanour pasts, where a door is always left open, if only you are looking to leave. Look for the non-sticky webs, they are much better associates on this narrow track.

[≈*≈]

Tolle knows well the point he is pointing to...but he may not really "get" the point (yet), unfortunately.

I invite you to consider the whole past, present, future thang in a whole new way. 

Instead of past, present, future...consider we are always ever only in a state of living into our futures.  Where you are today is poised on the edge of your future...ten minutes from now you will still be poised on the edge of your future.

I understand your concept, but even labeling it "the future" reduces it finitely.  It's simply a state of being a part of this whole infinite process that continues indefinitely ... a flow ... a Universal Flow.

We like to think/feel/believe that in our futures anything is possible...but this is not-so.  We tell ourselves we cannot see our futures and thus can keep perpetuating that magical thinking we affectionatly refer to as "someday." 

Now...in order for our future to contain anything (other-than us standing there blinking dumbfoundedly) we have to "create" it.  And we do this, actively (albeit not necessarily consciously), every minute of every day.  Every minute of every day we are actively thinking about what our future holds and what that means to us. 

Now, if you stop a second and consider just what you think about every minute of every day...the litany of stuff you are dialoging to yourself...you can see quite clearly how you "create" the ONLY possibility for your future.  AND...when you stop and consider what you think about, what you are telling yourself, you can see quite clearly how you are actively preparing yourself for the ONLY possible future you can live into. 

Consider that we are NEVER not-in a state of creation...that all we do is "create" our futures to live into.  The moment you think to yourself about some guy at work what a jerk he is...you have "created" the ONLY possible future for you to live into with him.  What you have done, in concluding he is a jerk, is to de-select any other possibility with him...and set the stone foundation for the ONLY possibility with him. 

This is never not-so. 

There is never a now...there is only ever perched on the edge of the future you are creating to live into.

Maybe I'm odd, but, I don't go around all day thinking about what the future holds for me.  All the future is , in our minds, is a projection of the past.  Until surgically removed, burned away, annihilated, the Past continually repeats future, there's no perching, no anticipation ... only Being ... it's like knowing at any particular time what exactly to do.  No thinking, just doing ... hard to explain.  It's not an emotional, passionate thing ... it's more of a "calm" doing.
 

No...oddly enough...it is just a "clearing."

If we consider how we are only ever actively creating our futures, and also consider the hard-wiring of survival mode and how survival mode perpetuates itself...we can begin to "get" the implication of a "clearing."

What we are thinking every minute of every day IS actively creating our futures (that we have no choice but to live into)...in survival mode we are hard-wired to always ever only be listening for threats...and so what are we thinking about?  Yeah, threats...and what is that doing?  That is actively creating the only possible future for you to live into,

Now...if we were to write all the things you are listening for down on say a chalk board...and we were to write all the things you are thinking down on a chalk board...and we were to write all the things you tell yourself down on this chalk board...it is going to get filled up pretty fast. 

And *that*...what would be there on your chalk board IS the only possible future for you...

UNLESS...you pick up the eraser and wipe the board clean...then what would be there??? 

See...that full chalk board is like an old growth forest...nothing new can grow there because there are all these trees that are already there.  All the nutrients can be in the earth, but the sunlight couldn't get to it.  People buy books, go to these seminars, do all these self-help things and wonder why they can't create new futures for themselves. 

Only when we "clear" the old growth away does new growth become possible.  So yes, it is ALL about the "clearing."

And if we go back to the chalk board and all that is written there (the old growth)...and we wipe it away...*what* becomes possible? ? ? ? ? ? ?

Yeah *warm smile,* *winks* that becomes possible.

Love.

For me, it's truly a Burning, an anhiliation of every part of whatever I Think is self.  There is no self.  As you say ... "you made it up" ... and you did.

Now when I only "clear" the forest, I still retain the same nutrients that produced that self initially. I don't want any of that ... the roots are usually the problem areas   Burn them out.  Burn the soil. What I want to do is totally destroy! Burn it all down ... fire cleansing ... let it sit ... nothing, empty.  Think of everything you Dislike, but go further, everything you Love .... throw it in the inferno. But you might say ... how heartless, how unfeeling.  The unfortunate thing is the way that we define all of these concepts ... i.e. I am a mother, I am a designer, I am a sister, I am a friend, I am a student, I am a teacher, I am a master, I am empathetic, I am a dreamer, I am, I am, I am  ...........  and then go further, reflecting these concepts on to others ... He is/She is a master, a student, a friend, a father, a whatever.....  None of this matters ... it's all a perception, a judgment, a program, a belief ... Burn it!  Unless every single strand of attachment is gone and lays in a pile of ash, the forest will have the ability to grow back ... the Old Forest.  It all must go.

The sterile ash fertilizes the new woodland and eventually a new will grow back.  It takes Seasons of winds to breathe, rains of tears that bring moisture, and bright light of warmth, to birth anew.  Maybe a small flower garden, a vegetable garden, select carefully and totally aware.  Now I can begin "flowing".

What becomes possible?  Truth ... but then That is also redefined

Be well ... Ang