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Author Topic: Path of Enlightenment  (Read 14221 times)

Offline daphne

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Re: Path of Enlightenment
« Reply #15 on: October 07, 2008, 08:28:58 AM »
Thanks Daph! :)

I enjoy those, as well ... have you checked out Oprah's Souls Series ... there are a couple of goodies on that:

I have just finished reading Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion... was fascinating!
I haven't watched Oprah in some time. I wonder if she ever had Richard Dawkins on her show... 

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Yes ... there are a few that I try to read and can't get through the first 10 pages ... heh!  But, yes ... diversity is a great thing!  I'm just beginning Star Woman, by Lynn Andrews.  Have you ever read any of her books?

I read some Lynn Andrews some years ago. Had a couple of friends who were keen on her stuff at the time. It was ok, though not really what I was into at the time.

Offline Definitive Journey

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Re: Path of Enlightenment
« Reply #16 on: October 07, 2008, 08:43:04 AM »
~

Sometimes its not semantics. Depends really on whether one 'uses' semantics to make a point, or whether there is a discernable difference in meaning.

Now we're getting somewhere!  (Where that is, I have no idea!)  Agree with ya', and 'twas the point all along, lost somewhere in the sarcasm.  ;)

If it was about the Kalahari Bushman, they do have a concept of time; its just that it is different to our western concept of time. At its most 'basic', 'time' is a sense of movement. They have that, in the seasons that come and go, and the people that birth and die.
For me, the ID is more than just the thoughts we are aware of fleeting through our minds. I sometimes think we have taken the concept of ID as a hindrance too literal. Without some sort of ID, the bushman would not survive.

You know, I can't find that darned link again.  Can you expand on, 'time is a sense of movement?'  I have an inkling on this, but would like to know if we're discussing the same idea's and concepts  ;)

Yea, the ID is a big topic.  Some refer to the mind, some say thought, some say ego, bla, bla, bla  ;)  There's a meaning of each, but won't get into that here.  Concerning the ID as a hindrance, that's tricky.  If one is using the mind as a tool, using it correctly, using it in balance with everything one is do-ing, then no hinderance needed.  What I'm specifically discussing is ego.  ...and one reason I use the words ID and ego interchangably is that what I see is the incorrect use of the mind, and mostly ego.  (Again, myself as well here.  I'm not excluded in any way!) 

Would you expand on "time and the ID are intimately related"?

Like I mentioned above, more specifically the ego as opposed to the internal dialogue.

Time is the fuel for the Ego.  The stronger the ego, the more time runs your life. Most every thought you think is then concerned with past or future, and you sense of self depends on the past for your identity and on the future for its fulfillment.

Now again, this is internal time, not the external time.  We already discussed that somewhere; The New Earth thread, if memory serves me correctly.

z

"Discipline is, indeed, the supreme joy of feeling reverent awe; of watching, with your mouth open, whatever is behind those secret doors."

Offline ≈*≈

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Re: Path of Enlightenment
« Reply #17 on: October 07, 2008, 05:18:47 PM »
I have just finished reading Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion... was fascinating!
I haven't watched Oprah in some time. I wonder if she ever had Richard Dawkins on her show... 

I just watched one of his speeches at Berkeley,CA.  I like his message :) ... I don't know if he's ever been on Oprah, would be interesting to watch her interview him, though.

So what other books have sparked that flame inside you, or fascinated you (or, anyone else if you all would like to share) ? :)
"There is a point at which everything becomes simple and there is no longer any question of choice, because all you have staked will be lost if you look back. Life's point of no return."
- Dag Hammarskjold

littlefeather

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Re: Path of Enlightenment
« Reply #18 on: October 07, 2008, 09:13:52 PM »
I really can't stand Gary Zuckov's 'style' of writing - lol - thank god for diversity eh!?!   :P

For me, Gary Zukav is one of those writers like you mentioned that the first book is good and the rest, not-so-god.    I really liked the first book I read of his, (don't know if it was his actual first book written though)  The Seat of the Soul, came at a perfect time for me, but anything else of his I have read since then, just doesn't seem to have the same ring to it, the same effect.  I feel the same way about the Prophecies as well.  But I do like the movie even though it doesn't nearly compare to the book.

So I'm wondering, is it that the succeeding books aren't as good, or maybe we've changed a bit (spiritually) because of and/or since reading the first one?  Possibly a little of both.



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Personally, I find Tolle too much in the 'feel good' category of 'self-help'.. good psychology there, and it has it's place in the manner of things, though I don't know about it being 'spiritual', but then..


I do kinda agree with you on the Tolle stuff.  It feels as though something is missing to me.  I can't quite put my finger on it, but I find him almost dry, or oversimplifying perhaps.

I have been reading a lot of Ken Wilber lately and while I do find the need to wade thru a lot of extra stuff, he has some good ideas and an interesting way of presenting them, too.

Offline Michael

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Re: Path of Enlightenment
« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2008, 03:04:16 AM »
Unless this first point you mention is addressed, and practiced to a sufficient level, the rest of what you mention concerning The Path just falls on deaf ears.  It becomes an intellectual exercise. 

I will get back to this subject, but just for now:

It's not an issue of semantics for me. I use words to describe some things I do.

It is nice to get the words right for the moment, but the moments keeps changing.

I do not agree with your above statement. That is not how I see the two approaches.

You are speaking about those who choose to only think about spiritual matters. That has nothing to do with what I am talking about. If you only think about these things, then you haven't begun, and you are on no path at all.

Thinking about these practices and their consequences is important. We have arrived at that juncture - we are no longer on the road of our earlier predecessors who engaged directly with the work, and never availed themselves of the 'relief' that accompanies the participation of the mind. I speak of 'relief' in its perspective terminology.

It does have something of value to offer in this whole process.

I will get to this later, but the two methods, are the path of samadhi and the path to samadhi.

Both involve much work, except it would be inappropriate to describe the first one as 'work'.

Just on Presence: I'm unsure to the extent of Tolle's definition of this term., except I know he applies the concept of immediate awareness to it - ie. 'being present'.

It has another meaning. People who realise the implication of their presence. This is beyond 'being present', it means that when one is present in any situation, one brings one's power and one's obligation. When DJ said that CC could be 'shifted' by DJ's mere presence, he was not just speaking about his 'being in the moment', although that is a part of it. He was referring to his personal power - his shakti. But that is too big a topic for this space.

littlefeather

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Re: Path of Enlightenment
« Reply #20 on: October 08, 2008, 06:45:40 AM »

It is nice to get the words right for the moment, but the moments keeps changing.


 :)

Offline daphne

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Re: Path of Enlightenment
« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2008, 07:24:31 AM »
Can you expand on, 'time is a sense of movement?'  I have an inkling on this, but would like to know if we're discussing the same idea's and concepts  ;)


I don't know whether we discussing the same ideas and concepts; can really only discuss from my own perspective, and I have found that 'understanding' of ideas and concepts is very tied up with my own experiences of those same ideas and concepts. When it comes to 'experiences', we tend to interpret them so they have meaning to ourself, though not necessarily to anyone else.. hence all the 'discussions' that often lead to conflict.  :)  In those cases, I have found that the conflict is my own, when different meaning is applied to my previous understanding in the attempt to come to some new understanding.

With 'time is a sense of movement', whether it is 'internal' time, or 'external' time, I find it difficult to differentiate. Having co-opted the "time is an illusion" cliche, I find myself not really understanding that. It sounds nice  :) but what does it really mean, to me? My mental make-up is to take something and explore it to my satisfaction. Right now, 'time' to me is a sense of movement. I am aware of 'time' whether it is within the memory of one thought moving to another, or the digestion of my food and subsequent expulsion of same. Saying "time is an
illusion' doesn't really help me at the moment; maybe after my explorations, it will.

For me, it is a sort of awareness, time. The only time I am not aware of time, I am really not aware of anything. And yet, paradoxically, when I am aware and present, I am also not aware of time; of time 'passing' that is; though I am aware of movement, the rhythm of life.

Offline daphne

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Re: Path of Enlightenment
« Reply #22 on: October 08, 2008, 07:48:02 AM »

What I'm specifically discussing is ego.  ...and one reason I use the words ID and ego interchangably is that what I see is the incorrect use of the mind, and mostly ego.  (Again, myself as well here.  I'm not excluded in any way!) 

Like I mentioned above, more specifically the ego as opposed to the internal dialogue.
There is a problem with talking about 'ego' (and 'mind'). Without 'ego' you would not be able to discuss ego with me! Usually, what we mean when we talk about ego is all the negative stuff attached to ego. And so we spend fruitless time  :D  not to mention semantics  :D  in the distraction of 'ego'.

Perhaps less concern about ego?
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Time is the fuel for the Ego.  The stronger the ego, the more time runs your life. Most every thought you think is then concerned with past or future, and you sense of self depends on the past for your identity and on the future for its fulfillment.

"Time is the fuel for the Ego".. sounds fancy! 
Personally I believe in a strong ego; it is the part (so to speak) of me that interacts. The ego could also be called the self - depends on usage of words and meaning. Now whether that is the real self, or false self or any other particular self, lol, could get very bogged down in all those selfs!! Usually though, what we mean by 'ego' is in the applying of a derogatory term to someone else!   :P

Our sense of identity depends on many things; ego included. Even calling ourselves 'spiritual beings having a human experience' is an identity we have fostered.
Our brain has evolved to allow us a perception of past and future. When we deride that, what we are actually saying is that the human being has devolved and not evolved (and there are a number of theories on that too!!) With our sense of self 'depending on the past for your identity and on the future for its fulfillment.' - what we are actually saying is that our sense of self is linked to memory. Future is as much 'memory' as is past (taking the other thing - 'time is an illusion' into account - heh)
Well yes.. I see sense of self linked to memory - without that I do not see we would have a sense of self. If we were 'reborn' literally every moment - the blinking in and out of existence - there would be no continuity of 'self' (false, real, or otherwise) So.. we need an ego to even be aware of that!

What do you see as the "incorrect use of the mind'?

Offline daphne

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Re: Path of Enlightenment
« Reply #23 on: October 08, 2008, 07:50:53 AM »

So what other books have sparked that flame inside you, or fascinated you (or, anyone else if you all would like to share) ? :)

I've forgotten most of them.. usually its the current book I'm reading.  :)

Offline daphne

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Re: Path of Enlightenment
« Reply #24 on: October 08, 2008, 08:02:56 AM »

So I'm wondering, is it that the succeeding books aren't as good, or maybe we've changed a bit (spiritually) because of and/or since reading the first one?  Possibly a little of both.

I've wondered the same thing. Sometimes I think that it's because the actual 'message'.. if there is one, is often received in the first experience of reading. Thereafter its often repetitious. Some authors manage not to repeat - ie different facets are presented in the different books. Others repeat the same thing. I suppose a lot depends on what one gets out of the reading.

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I do kinda agree with you on the Tolle stuff.  It feels as though something is missing to me.  I can't quite put my finger on it, but I find him almost dry, or oversimplifying perhaps.
Well.. my finger is quite clear; he is dry to me and kind of happy clappy. Not enough 'meat' for me.. so to speak - I like works that make me think and figure out for myself (mea culpa projection me!)  :D
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I have been reading a lot of Ken Wilber lately and while I do find the need to wade thru a lot of extra stuff, he has some good ideas and an interesting way of presenting them, too.
Yes. He's rather 'way out there'! I enjoy that kind of stuff!

Offline Michael

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Re: Path of Enlightenment
« Reply #25 on: October 08, 2008, 09:32:27 AM »
Moving to the details.

The word ‘enlightenment’ now conjures up an area of personal investment - it is a chess piece in the game of thinking about other people. This is a big investment, and thus enlightenment becomes a dispute. To win a point.

Over on the other side, there are two samadhis. The big samadhi and the little samadhi.

Leaving the big one aside as it needs no introduction. Little samadhis are tasters.

The two approaches: the path of samadhi, and the path to samadhi.

In the path of samadhi, we employ these little samadhis. You first have to have one, and recognise it. They are moments of complete inner suspension - no thoughts and no attitude.

They say you either understand this immediately, or you do the path to samadhi.

Stop a moment, and think, is their anyone you dislike?

Yes?
Then your not ready for the 'path of' samadhi. Apply yourself to the ‘path to’.

Actually that’s not really how it works. What happens first is that we don’t have a clue. All we can do in that case is to take the ‘path to’. We have no option. Once we have experienced the first realisation, that by suspending thoughts and attitude, the world changes. This is little samadhi. We know about it, we just have to do it.

At that point we practice both the path of and the path to. We don’t give up the path to, although many do - some don’t need it, and others forget what happened. It’s not recommended. Best to practice both.

The path of: here is an example. At any moment in your day, but best when going for a walk on your own. Switch off your mind and feel the world directly - unfiltered. No thoughts of self or others - use your eyes and ears and take it all in, while being aware that you are alive. That’s pretty much how it goes, except there are forceful or gentle methods to switching off.

The path to: examples. The best example is the practice of acting for no reason. Go into the yard and move stones from one area into a pile, then move them back from the pile to the original area - try to get it back exactly as it was originally. Relax and get into it - watch each stone carefully. Say hello to each of them - feel how heavy each is. Pause often and just gaze at the stones.

Here’s another. Buy a packet of crisps, and crunch them all up into tiny pieces before you open the pack. Then eat one tiny piece at a time.

Another - count down from 1000, slowly, in your own mind.

There are thousands of exercises to be explored on the path to. It really is a lot of fun, and the only reason anyone who knows these exercises doesn’t do them is because they lack spunk - they are lazy and weak.

littlefeather

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Re: Path of Enlightenment
« Reply #26 on: October 08, 2008, 11:33:45 AM »

Well.. my finger is quite clear; he is dry to me and kind of happy clappy. Not enough 'meat' for me.. so to speak - I like works that make me think and figure out for myself (mea culpa projection me!) 

LOL
Dry and happy clappy... that's a hilarious finger you've got there.D  I guess I like that, too.  Rather than tell me how it is, I like a book to force me to figure it out for myself.  One reason I love don Juan so so much!

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:DYes. He's rather 'way out there'! I enjoy that kind of stuff!



Yeah he is way out there isn't he?   Kinda whacky, but I love the way he writes!

I have a good snippet of one of his chapters on the shadow, makes some good points, I even sent it to my mom and she liked it!
 8) :o

Offline ≈*≈

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Re: Path of Enlightenment
« Reply #27 on: December 08, 2008, 01:05:25 AM »
I've been reading Jed McKenna's books and working on an exercise he names Spiritual Autolysis ... it's similar to Recapitulation, but you write, and write, and write ... (I'll post some examples in another thread)  Anyway, I found this article he wrote ... I think it may be in one of the books as well.  He's all about "the truth" ... beliefs are just that, beliefs, not even remotely related to truth.  Most "beliefs" boil down to nothing, zero, nada ....

... imagine how much personal power you could harness, by clearing all that so-called "spiritual" attachment out of your attic, and focusing on really Seeing.  Anyway ....



"Being critical of Buddhism isn’t easy.

Buddhism is the most likable of the major religions, and Buddhists are the perennial good guys of modern spirituality. Beautiful traditions, lovely architecture, inspiring statuary, ancient history, the Dalai Lama — what’s not to like?

Everything about Buddhsim is just so… nice. No fatwahs or jihads, no inquisitions or crusades, no terrorists or pederasts, just nice people being nice. In fact, Buddhism means niceness. Nice-ism.

At least, it should.

Buddha means Awakened One, so Buddhism can be taken to mean Awake-ism. Awakism. It would therefore be natural to think that if you were looking to wake up, then Buddhism, i.e., Awakism, would be the place to look.

::: The Light is Better Over Here

Such thinking, however, would reveal a dangerous lack of respect for the opposition. Maya, goddess of delusion, has been doing her job with supreme mastery since the first spark of self-awareness flickered in some chimp’s noggin, and the idea that the neophyte truth-seeker can just sign up with the Buddhists, read some books, embrace some new concepts and slam her to the mat might be a bit on the naive side.

On the other hand, why not? How’d this get so turned around? It’s just truth. Shouldn’t truth be, like, the simplest thing? Shouldn’t someone who wants to find something as ubiquitous as truth be able to do so? And here’s this venerable organization supposedly dedicated to just that very thing, even named for it, so what’s the problem?

::: Why doesn’t Buddhism produce Buddhas?

The problem arises from the fact that Buddhists, like everyone else, insist on reconciling the irreconcilable. They don’t just want to awaken to the true, they also want to make sense of the untrue. They want to have their cake and eat it too, so they end up with nonsensical theories, divergent schools, sagacious doubletalk, and zero Buddhas.

Typical of Buddhist insistence on reconciling the irreconcilable is the concept of Two Truths, a poignant two-word joke they don’t seem to get, and yet this sort of perversely irrational thinking is at the very heart of the failed search for truth. We don’t want truth, we want a particular truth; one that doesn’t threaten ego, one that doesn’t exist. We insist on a truth that makes sense given what we know, not knowing that we don’t know anything.

Nothing about Buddhism is more revealing than the Four Noble Truths which, not being true, are of pretty dubious nobility. They form the basis of Buddhism, so it’s clear from the outset that the Buddhists have whipped up a proprietary version of truth shaped more by market forces than any particular concern for the less consumer-friendly, albeit true, truth.

Yes, Buddhism may be spiritually filling, even nourishing, but insofar as truth is concerned, it’s junkfood. You can eat it every day of your life and die exactly as Awakened as the day you signed up.

::: Bait & Switch

Buddhism is a classic bait-and-switch operation. We’re attracted by the enlightenment in the window, but as soon as we’re in the door they start steering us over to the compassion aisle. Buddhists could be honest and change their name to Compassionism, but who wants that?

There’s the rub. They can’t sell compassion and they can’t deliver enlightenment.

This untruth-in-advertising is the kind of game you have to play if you want to stay successful in a business where the customer is always wrong. You can either go out of business honestly, or thrive by giving the people what they want. What they say they want and what they really want, though, are two very different things.

::: Me Me Me

To the outside observer, much of Buddhist knowledge and practice seems focused on spiritual self-improvement. This, too, is hard to speak against… except within the context of awakening from delusion. Then it’s easy.

There is no such thing as true self, so any pursuit geared toward its aggrandizement, betterment, upliftment, elevation, evolution, glorification, salvation, etc, is utter folly. How much more so any endeavor undertaken merely to increase one’s own happiness or contentment or, I’m embarrassed to even say it, bliss?

Self is ego and ego is the realm of the dreamstate. If you want to break free of the dreamstate, you must break free of self, not stroke it to make it purr or groom it for some imagined brighter future.

::: Maya’s House of Enlightenment

The trick with being critical of so esteemed and beloved an institution is not to get dragged down into the morass of details and debate. It’s very simple: If Buddhism is about enlightenment, people should be getting enlightened. If it’s not about enlightenment, they should change the sign.

Of course, Buddhism isn’t completely unique in its survival tactics. This same gulf between promise and performance is found in all systems of human spirituality. We’re looking at it in Buddhism because that’s where it’s most pronounced. No disrespect to the Buddha is intended. If there was a Buddha and he was enlightened, then it’s Buddhism that insults his memory, not healthy skepticism. Blame the naked emperor’s retinue of tailors and lickspittles, not the boy who merely states the obvious.

Buddhism is arguably the most elevated of man’s great belief systems. If you want to enjoy the many valuable benefits it has to offer, then I wouldn’t presume to utter a syllable against it. But if you want to escape from the clutches of Maya, then I suggest you take a very close look at the serene face on all those golden statues to see if it isn’t really hers."

-Jed McKenna
"There is a point at which everything becomes simple and there is no longer any question of choice, because all you have staked will be lost if you look back. Life's point of no return."
- Dag Hammarskjold

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Re: Path of Enlightenment
« Reply #28 on: December 12, 2008, 02:33:58 PM »
People tend to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Buddism is about awakening.  Christianity is about becoming Christ Consciousness.

This is not what peopl talk about though.  Itis not what people write books on either.  It is not what they talk about in church.  It doesn't even matter if we have in our own personal inventory ALL that the churches/Buddhists talked about, what it meant, and what they called it...because none of it matters to the end goal. 

"Getting" what Buddha did..."getting" Jesus did...*that* is what it is about.  To do that people need to look beyond the words and NOT make it mean something it doesn't mean.

Buddha was a guy describing his experience as it occured for him.  Jesus was a guy describing his experience as it occurred for him. 

I am infinitely more attracted, by nature, to people describing their actually experience as it occurs for them rather than the words they use...and rather than all the people describing the people describing their actual experience...or describing how another described their experience.  It is just too removed...loses life...loses that *umphf* that makes it alive.   

The more removed things get...the less "aliveness" we feel.  Just an observation.  Bringing it forward...saying notice.


If you can't see past all the BS of the church and "get" what Jesus is saying... or past the Buddhism to "get" what Buddha did...then ya ain't going to get it through ANY subsequent books, methods, or ways.  McKenna got it...not because he read other's books...he got it because he looked at what occured.  You can't get it from Mckenna's book if you can't get it directly.  The universe is right here, touching you at literally every point of contact...and it is telling you everything you ever needed to know. 

Love you.

This has always fired up my questioning nature ... has anyone here, anywhere, read any books by Jesus or Buddha?   Or are we to just "have faith", or "believe" that all of those disciples and monks were channeling these "great" beings?  Just something we might want to toss around.
 
"There is a point at which everything becomes simple and there is no longer any question of choice, because all you have staked will be lost if you look back. Life's point of no return."
- Dag Hammarskjold

littlefeather

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Re: Path of Enlightenment
« Reply #29 on: December 12, 2008, 02:46:56 PM »
This has always fired up my questioning nature ... has anyone here, anywhere, read any books by Jesus or Buddha?  

Nope, haven't read a word by either one of them.  I have, though had a few convos with JC, in dreaming and visions.   Enlightening, as you may expect.    ;)