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Author Topic: When we love somebody...  (Read 30900 times)

littlefeather

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Re: When we love somebody...
« Reply #60 on: January 02, 2009, 12:37:58 PM »

Thank you for the subject, and thank you for not backing down away from the subject into the petty cynacism regarding love.  

Interesting, the way things get twisted around here. 

Erik:

Quote from: RedOne
Because I am absolutely certain that most people here (me included) would find it difficult to say 'I love you' to, e.g., person torturing us

This, to me is cynical. 

Zenandnow
Red, (is it Erik?), I have been following this thread for a few days . . . you make some fine points about love and are asking (what I feel) are good and deep questions . .. . that I have greatly enjoyed asking myself (so thank you).


These points include his hypothesis (opinion)  that it is impossible to love someone who has tortured you.  Also analogies of legs being sawn off etc.    How that has anything to do with love is beyond me, I admit.   However, obviously Erik felt it had some merit, so I'll assume he understands his own reasoning. 



What is love?  There are no words I have learned for that . . . I could only point at things and say, "here, it is like that." 

 


As I said before:
"Don't try to find the answer, when there ain't no question here.
Brother let your heart be wounded and give no mercy to your fear."


Love isn't something we talk about or (try to) explain, it isn't something we 'do'.  It simply is.

Love is. 





« Last Edit: January 02, 2009, 01:10:10 PM by Valle »

Offline zenandnow

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Re: When we love somebody...
« Reply #61 on: January 02, 2009, 05:01:37 PM »
That's a good description of it. I would add that there is an immense feeling of equanimity where no being is more precious than any other - they ALL are precious. I'd guess it is an aspect of Power that is present in the universe; that is within the reach, but a constant staying there requires very deep changes in self.
Ah...yes *warm smiles*...or the constant staying there simply changes self.  :)

This last year I spent trying to just DO whatever it was that kept me in that (what made my heart sing)...and as a result underwent many changes, none expected.  For instance, my whole goal in life morphed in ways I never would have thought I cared about...but realized I cared a great deal about.  Like starting a path and at each turn more is revealed...it has been quite an exciting ride.

My experience agrees with you...there is a certain sense of indescribable "at-rightness" with being in that state...as though it is familiar, or something that I recognize from who knows where...like that is the way I used to be before I was human (not to sound too out-there). 

I desire that "at-rightness" and as it is a feeling or sense like no others...I made that feeling my guide and teacher and follow it where it goes.  In doing that, though, and my absolute devotion to it, sort of took me outside the usual routine "path-following" those around me were doing...and that I used to do.  I wish it was clear cut, but it is not...a part of it had to do with my relinquishing any hope for a teacher or guide that had been anywhere I wanted to go before...it was an acceptance on a different (non-word) level that...well...these feelings or senses were my guide...and a real relinquishment to accept following them blindly. 

My path in this life circles around "love"...and I do not believe even one fraction of my life does not involve this matter of "love"...so my "at-rightness" has a lot to do with achieving the higher frequencies of awareness where there is more and more love flowing out and less and less anything else.

I don't care for the cynacism...I am deeply sorry for those who's life experience only knows the lower levels of imitation love and thus their cynacism is a natural outgrowth...but their closedness precludes it...I see only their hunger...and then, after, their words (spoken or written) inform me that they are in denial pretending they are not hungry...but still I see only their hunger and emptiness.  I can do nothing in those realms...their closedness precludes any experience outside their lack.

I think you are right Red, 99.99999...% of people would find it very hard to genuinely love someone torturing them...and harder still to forgive them. I don't know how others experience it, but I have a visceral reaction and sort of shudder when people say that they don't or wouldn't want to forgive or come to love...and I wonder do they know what they are saying...and IF they knew would they still say?  And I know they would still say...but not because they understand...because they don't.  The prospect of it not occuring as a choice carries with it implications that are hard to bear...but that we have no choice but to bear.  Then again, no one said expanded awareness is easy or leads to peace...but the joy born of "at-rightness" with one's self is a reward eases the matter.

You know...there is something in that...genuinely loving the person torturing your physical form.  It runs counter to those who turn on the evening news and get upset.  If we were to effect a scale of beginner path to highly advanced path I would think that having one's life, designing our life, to include being tortured so that one could have the opportunity to love one's torturer constitutes a more highly advanced life path.  That is just the way it seems to me.  No, it is not easy to love one's torturer...especially in the midst of being tortured...but that is exactly why one should do it.  To me, that is what stood out in the death of Jesus story...but I have yet to hear or see anyone emphasize that aspect...could one BE tortured and NOT lose themselves in their physical form, but instead rise above form and expand awareness and flow love out in perfect understanding of why it was this way?  Could you?  I wonder if I could...

Love is a vital essence...life without time in the frequency of awareness known as love (not emotion) does not seem nearly as full of life or verve or just "aliveness."  While I may not have words to describe what I see in that...life lived in the higher frequencies just seems to call one powerfully into being, do you know what I mean?
"When you were a wandering desire in the mist, I too was there, a wandering desire.  Then we sought one another, and out of our eagerness dreams were born.  And when you were a silent word upon life's quivering lips, I too was there, another silent word.  Then life uttered us and...-Kahlil Gibran

Red one

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Re: When we love somebody...
« Reply #62 on: January 02, 2009, 05:05:42 PM »

Quote from: Red one
Because I am absolutely certain that most people here (me included) would find it difficult to say 'I love you' to, e.g., person torturing us
This, to me is cynical.

Well, one can reason as follows:
1) domestic violence leads to psychosis and false beliefs about love; these people say easily that they love their torturers
2) people not living in unconditional love and not yet driven into psychosis and belief that they love their torturer, would definitely not tell their torturer that they love them

Where's the cynicism here? Only medically and statistically established facts.

littlefeather

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Re: When we love somebody...
« Reply #63 on: January 02, 2009, 05:11:15 PM »

to highly advanced path I would think that having one's life, designing our life, to include being tortured so that one could have the opportunity to love one's torturer constitutes a more highly advanced life path.  That is just the way it seems to me.  No, it is not easy to love one's torturer...especially in the midst of being tortured...but that is exactly why one should do it. 

 do you know what I mean?

Yes, I do know what you mean, this is exactly what I was/am talking about here:
The point I am heading towards is that it may be necessary to give our torturers love.   Not for them, but for us, for me, for my own growth. I need to let go of any negative feelings and energies I had toward them (and hence myself) and love them.  Is it easy?  I think there is no other choice.

And here:

   If you are asking me have I ever loved someone while they were torturing me, I can tell you that on one occasion in particular, that very thing saved my life.    It's not unheard of.




littlefeather

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Re: When we love somebody...
« Reply #64 on: January 02, 2009, 05:15:12 PM »
This, to me is cynical.

Well, one can reason as follows:
1) domestic violence leads to psychosis and false beliefs about love; these people say easily that they love their torturers 

2) people not living in unconditional love and not yet driven into psychosis and belief that they love their torturer, would definitely not tell their torturer that they love them

Where's the cynicism here? Only medically and statistically established facts.

It is cynical to say that one cannot love their torturer.  This is clear, no?

Again, where you get the idea that I am talking about a situation of domestic vilence is curious, especially when I have told you this is not my point of reference. 

Many things happenen when in a near death or faced with death situation.  Shifts happen and perceptions change, it then becomes easy to send or give love to those you would otherwise fear or resent. 

Though, Erik, since you are not interested in learning any way besides yours, go ahead and reason to your hearts content.  I hope it brings you closer to what you seek.

Red one

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Re: When we love somebody...
« Reply #65 on: January 02, 2009, 05:18:45 PM »
You know...there is something in that...genuinely loving the person torturing your physical form.  It runs counter to those who turn on the evening news and get upset.  If we were to effect a scale of beginner path to highly advanced path I would think that having one's life, designing our life, to include being tortured so that one could have the opportunity to love one's torturer constitutes a more highly advanced life path.  That is just the way it seems to me.  No, it is not easy to love one's torturer...especially in the midst of being tortured...but that is exactly why one should do it.  To me, that is what stood out in the death of Jesus story...but I have yet to hear or see anyone emphasize that aspect...could one BE tortured and NOT lose themselves in their physical form, but instead rise above form and expand awareness and flow love out in perfect understanding of why it was this way?  Could you?  I wonder if I could...

Well, to do what Jesus did and say what he said: "Father, forgive them, because they don't know what they're doing.", while hanging on the cross - that is way beyond my abilities. I'd say one must know the his purpose and must be ready to say also: '"My Father, if this cup cannot go away unless I drink it, let your will be done."

Red one

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Re: When we love somebody...
« Reply #66 on: January 02, 2009, 05:19:49 PM »
It is cynical to say that one cannot love their torturer.  This is clear, no?

Again, where you get the idea that I am talking about a situation of domestic vilence is curious, especially when I have told you this is not my point of reference. 

Many things happenen when in a near death or faced with death situation.  Shifts happen and perceptions change, it then becomes easy to send or give love to those you would otherwise fear or resent. 

Though, Erik, since you are not interested in learning any way besides yours, go ahead and reason to your hearts content.  I hope it brings you closer to what you seek.

So you say you live in unconditional love?

littlefeather

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Re: When we love somebody...
« Reply #67 on: January 02, 2009, 05:20:50 PM »
So you say you live in unconditional love?

Did I say that?

If that is how you read my words, you may wish to re-read the post(s).

Red one

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Re: When we love somebody...
« Reply #68 on: January 02, 2009, 05:22:09 PM »
Did I say that?

No, and that's why I doubt you words.

littlefeather

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Re: When we love somebody...
« Reply #69 on: January 02, 2009, 05:25:03 PM »
No, and that's why I doubt you words.

If I haven't said the words "I live in unconditional love"  you have no words to doubt, only your own.


Red one

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Re: When we love somebody...
« Reply #70 on: January 02, 2009, 05:33:56 PM »
If I haven't said the words "I live in unconditional love"  you have no words to doubt, only your own.

Ok, then :) The circle has closed many a time and it's time to part. We have a bit of belief situation here. You believe sincerely you loved your torturer, I doubt it was love. There's no way you can persuade me and I have little interest to keep discussing this subject. Apparently, there simply is no common language left. Shall we part?

littlefeather

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Re: When we love somebody...
« Reply #71 on: January 02, 2009, 05:37:12 PM »
Ok, then :) The circle has closed many a time and it's time to part. We have a bit of belief situation here. You believe sincerely you loved your torturer, I doubt it was love. There's no way you can persuade me and I have little interest to keep discussing this subject. Apparently, there simply is no common language left. Shall we part?

I have no desire to persuade you or anyone.   You seem to have a need to judge and doubt another's experience, when you have little or no information on which to base your judgements.    You asked a question, I answered it based on my past experience, not based on what ifs and maybes.  Yet, you call my experience into question and doubt my words. I can accept that. 
Do as you will.

« Last Edit: January 03, 2009, 10:10:31 AM by Valle »

Red one

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Re: When we love somebody...
« Reply #72 on: January 02, 2009, 05:38:12 PM »
Cheers!

Jaharkta

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Re: When we love somebody...
« Reply #73 on: January 02, 2009, 05:38:52 PM »
Well, one can reason as follows:
1) domestic violence leads to psychosis and false beliefs about love; these people say easily that they love their torturers

And this is what I was saying earlier -- it's not love, it's fear, in the situation of domestic violence. Psychosis is a good word -- psychosis and damage, and a lack of health and well-being, such that one could not even say that "love" is a possibility anymore. The level of functioning is below "survival".

Quote
From a description of Battered Person's Syndrome.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battered_wife_syndrome

Symptomology

ICD9 code 995.81 [1] shows the syndrome as including "battered person/man/spouse syndrome NEC" and any person presenting with identified physical descriptors rather than psychological descriptors falls under the general heading of "Adult physical abuse", classified under "Injury and Poisoning". In lay terms, this is a reference to any person who, because of constant and severe domestic violence usually involving physical abuse by a partner, becomes depressed and unable to take any independent action that would allow him or her to escape the abuse. The condition explains why abused people often do not seek assistance from others, fight their abuser, or leave the abusive situation. Sufferers have low self-esteem, and often believe that the abuse is their fault. Such persons usually refuse to press criminal charges against their abuser, and refuse all offers of help, often becoming aggressive or abusive to others who attempt to offer assistance. Often sufferers will even seek out their very abuser for comfort shortly after an incident of abuse.

Such a relationship may have begun in love.
Through the repeated abuse, something else gets created.
I'd say that a long path of healing is in store before one can "love" wholly again.

« Last Edit: January 02, 2009, 05:52:46 PM by jaharkta »

littlefeather

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Re: When we love somebody...
« Reply #74 on: January 02, 2009, 05:42:49 PM »
And this is what I was saying earlier -- it's not love, it's fear, in the situation of domestic violence. Psychosis is a good word -- psychosis and damage, and a lack of health and well-being that one could not even say that "love" is a possibility anymore. The level of functioning is below "survival".


Exactly.