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Author Topic: Death as Advisor  (Read 22165 times)

goggle-eyed dandelion

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Re: Death as Advisor
« Reply #45 on: February 04, 2007, 03:11:28 PM »
No wonder.
That contemplation is part of the hardest Buddhist meditation - on realisation of emptiness and superior seeing.

First contemplation
The emptiness of I

Identifying the object of negation
Although we grasp at an inherently existent I all the time, even during sleep, it is not easy to identify how it appears to our mind. To identify it clearly we must begin by allowing it to manifest strongly by contemplating situations in which we have an exaggerated sense of I, such as when we are embarrassed , ashamed, afraid, or indignant. We recall or imagine such a situation and then, without any comment or analysis try to attain a clear mental image of how the I naturally appears at such times. We have to be patient at this stage because it may take many sessions before we attain a clear image. Eventually we shall see that the I appears to be completely solid and real, existing from its own side without depending upon the body or the mind. This vividly appearing I is the inherently existent I that we cherish so strongly. It is the I that we defend when we are criticised, and that we are so proud of when we are praised.

Once we have an image of how the I appears in these extreme circumstances, we should try to identify how it appears normally, in less extreme situations. For example, we can observe the I that is presently meditating and try to discover how it appears to our mind. Eventually we shall see that although in this case there is not such an inflated sense of I, nevertheless the I still appears to be inherently existent, existing from its own side without depending upon the body or the mind.

Once we have ans image of the inherently existent I, we focus on it for a while with single-pointed concentration, and the proceed to the second stage.

Refuting the object of negation
If the I exists in the way it appears, it must exist in one of the four ways: as the body, as the mind, as the collection of the body and mind, or as something separate from the body and mind. There's no other possibility. We contemplate this carefully until we become convinced that this is the case and then we proceed to examine each of the four possibilities:

1. If I is the body, there is no sense saying 'my body', because the possessor and possessed are identical. If I is the body, there is no rebirth because the I ceases to when the body dies. If I and the body are identical, then since we are capable of developing faith, dreaming, solving mathematical puzzles, and so on, it follows that flesh, blood, and bones can do the same. Since none of this is true, it follows that the I is not the body.

2. If the I is the mind, there is no sense in saying 'my mind', because the possessor and possessed are identical; but usually when we focus on our mind we say 'my mind'. This clearly indicates that the I is not the mind. If the I is the mind, then since each person has many types of mind, such as six consciousnesses, conceptual minds, and non-conceptual minds, it follows that each person has just as many I's. Since this is absurd, it follows that I is not the mind.

3. Since body is not the I and the mind is not the I, the collection of the body and mind cannot be I. The collection of body and mind is a collection of things that are not the I, so how can the collection itself be I? For example, in a herd of cows none of the animals is a sheep, therefore the herd itself is not the sheep. In the same way, in the collection of the body and mind, neither the body and mind is the I, therefore the collection itself is not the I.

You may find this point difficult to understand, but if you think about it for a long time with calm and positive mind, and discuss it with more experienced practitioners, it will gradually become clear to you.

4. If the I is not the body, not the mind, and not the collection of body and mind, the only possibility that remains is that it is something separate form the body and mind. If this is the case, we must be able to apprehend the I without either the body or mind appearing, but if we imagine our body and our mind were completely to disappear there would be nothing remaining that could be called I. Therefore it follows that the I is not separate from the body and mind.

We should imagine that our body gradually dissolves into thin air, and then our mind dissolves, our thoughts scatter with the wind, our feelings, wishes, and awareness melt into nothingness. Is there anything left that is the I? There is nothing. Clearly the I is not something separate from the body and mind.

We have now examined all four possibilities and have failed to find the I. Since we have already decided that there is no fifth possibility, we must conclude that the truly existent, or inherently existent I that normally appears so vividly does not exist at all. Where there previously appeared an inherently existent I, there now appears an absence of that I. This absence of an inherently existent I is emptiness, ultimate truth.

Meditation
We contemplate in this way until there appears to our mind a generic image of the absence of inherently existent I. This image is our object of placement meditation. We try to become completely familiar with it by concentrating on it single-pointedly for as long as possible. Because we have grasped at an inherently existent I since beginningless time, and have cherished it more dearly than anything else, the experience of failing to find the I in meditation can be quite shocking at first. Some people develop fear, thinking that they have become completely non-existent. Others feel great joy, as if the source of all their problems is vanishing. Both reactions are good signs and indicate correct meditation. After a while, these initial reactions will subside and our mind will settle into a more balanced state. Then we shall be able to meditate on emptiness in a calm, controlled manner. We should allow our mind to become absorbed in space-like emptiness for as long as possible. It is important to remember that our object is emptiness, the absence of inherently existent I, not mere nothingness. Occasionally we should check our meditation with alertness. If our mind has wandered to another object, or if we have lost the meaning of emptiness and are focusing on nothingness, we should return to the contemplations to bring emptiness clearly to mind once again.

We must keep in mind that the I that exists is mere concept and designation imputed by conceptual mind to the collection of body and mind. As long as we are aware that the I is mere concept and imputation, we can be sure that the inherently existent I created by  the self-grasping mind will not dominate our awareness.

Offline Definitive Journey

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Re: Death as Advisor
« Reply #46 on: April 11, 2009, 12:42:55 PM »
~

Browsing, again looking for something else, I found this bit:

Now take the question of death which is an immense problem to most people. You know death, there it is walking every day by your side. Is it possible to meet it so completely that you do not make a problem of it at all? In order to meet it in such a way all belief, all hope, all fear about it must come to an end, otherwise you are meeting this extraordinary thing with a conclusion, an image, with a premeditated anxiety, and therefore you are meeting it with time.

Time is the interval between the observer and the observed. That is, the observer, you, is afraid to meet this thing called death. You don't know what it means; you have all kinds of hopes and theories about it; you believe in reincarnation or resurrection, or in something called the soul, the atman, a spiritual entity which is timeless and which you call by different names. Now have you found out for yourself whether there is a soul? Or is it an idea that has been handed down to you? Is there something permanent, continuous, which is beyond thought? If thought can think about it, it is within the field of thought and therefore it cannot be permanent because there is nothing permanent within the field of thought. To discover that nothing is permanent is of tremendous importance for only then is the mind free, then you can look, and in that there is great joy.

You cannot be frightened of the unknown because you do not know what the unknown is and so there is nothing to be frightened of. Death is a word, and it is the word, the image, that creates fear. So can you look at death without the image of death? As long as the image exists from which springs thought, thought must always create fear. Then you either rationalize your fear of death and build a resistance against the inevitable or you invent innumerable beliefs to protect you from the fear of death. Hence there is a gap between you and the thing of which you are afraid. In this time-space interval there must be conflict which is fear, anxiety and self-pity. Thought, which breeds the fear of death, says, `Let's postpone it, let's avoid it, keep it as far away as possible, let's not think about it' - but you are thinking about it. When you say, `I won't think about it', you have already thought out how to avoid it. You are frightened of death because you have postponed it.

We have separated living from dying, and the interval between the living and the dying is fear. That interval, that time, is created by fear. Living is our daily torture, daily insult, sorrow and confusion, with occasional opening of a window over enchanted seas. That is what we call living, and we are afraid to die, which is to end this misery. We would rather cling to the known than face the unknown - the known being our house, our furniture, our family, our character, our work, our knowledge, our fame, our loneliness, our gods - that little thing that moves around incessantly within itself with its own limited pattern of embittered existence.

We think that living is always in the present and that dying is something that awaits us at a distant time. But we have never questioned whether this battle of everyday life is living at all. We want to know the truth about reincarnation, we want proof of the survival of the soul, we listen to the assertion of clairvoyants and to the conclusions of psychical research, but we never ask, never, how to live - to live with delight, with enchantment, with beauty every day. We have accepted life as it is with all its agony and despair and have got used to it, and think of death as some- thing to be carefully avoided. But death is extraordinarily like life when we know how to live. You cannot live without dying. You cannot live if you do not die psychologically every minute. This is not an intellectual paradox. To live completely, wholly, every day as if it were a new loveliness, there must be dying to everything of yesterday, otherwise you live mechanically, and a mechanical mind can never know what love is or what freedom is.

Most of us are frightened of dying because we don't know what it means to live. We don't know how to live, therefore we don't know how to die. As long as we are frightened of life we shall be frightened of death. The man who is not frightened of life is not frightened of being completely insecure for he understands that inwardly, psychologically, there is no security. When there is no security there is an endless movement and then life and death are the same. The man who lives without conflict, who lives with beauty and love, is not frightened of death because to love is to die.

If you die to everything you know, including your family, your memory, everything you have felt, then death is a purification, a rejuvenating process; then death brings innocence and it is only the innocent who are passionate, not the people who believe or who want to find out what happens after death.

To find out actually what takes place when you die you must die. This isn't a joke. You must die - not physically but psychologically, inwardly, die to the things you have cherished and to the things you are bitter about. If you have died to one of your pleasures, the smallest or the greatest, naturally, without any enforcement or argument, then you will know what it means to die. To die is to have a mind that is completely empty of itself, empty of its daily longing, pleasure; and agonies. Death is a renewal, a mutation, in which thought does not function at all because thought is old. When there is death there is something totally new. Freedom from the known is death, and then you are living.

FWIW...Looks very similiar to that Toltec dude in regards to Losing Personal History and Death as an Advisor  ;)

Freedom From The Known
Krishnamurti

"Discipline is, indeed, the supreme joy of feeling reverent awe; of watching, with your mouth open, whatever is behind those secret doors."

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Re: Death as Advisor
« Reply #47 on: April 12, 2009, 03:42:25 PM »
~

Perhaps the deepest reason why we are afraid of death is because we do not know who we are.  We believe in a personal, unique, and seperate identity - but if we dare to examine it, we find that this identiy depends entirely on an endless collection of things to prop it up:  our name, our "biography," our partners, family, home, job, friends, credit cards...It is on their fragile and transient support that we rely for our security.  So when they are all taken away, will we have any idea of who we really are?

Without our familiar props, we are faced with just ourselves, a person we do not know, an unnerving stranger with whom we have been living all the time but we never really wanted to meet.  Isn't that why we have tried to fill every moment of time with noise and activity, however boring or trivial, to ensure that we are never left in slience with this stranger on our own?

Sogyal Rinpoche



"Discipline is, indeed, the supreme joy of feeling reverent awe; of watching, with your mouth open, whatever is behind those secret doors."

lady.urania

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Re: Death as Advisor
« Reply #48 on: April 12, 2009, 04:15:56 PM »
Certainly, but we deny this and say we do know who we are, because then we can also fantasize we're permanent beings who will never really lose that peremanency.

Permanency, there is a shot, but it wont be from the *I* or the physical body, we dont take any of this with us, and lucid dreaming say, shows how difficult it is, and how much work it will take.

Like right about Good friday, I had my lucid dream trying to wake up my physical body, touching my head yelling 'wake up!' at the thing. Over and over, lol. Lucid dreaming proves to me, we have something going on, but we're attached for now to that body - and its impermanent, but we still call it 'ours,' when really our bodies are on loan, for a little while.

Id like to talk to the savings and loan that gave me my body, heh.

lady.urania

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Re: Death as Advisor
« Reply #49 on: April 12, 2009, 10:05:09 PM »
Even death is not to be feared by one who has lived wisely.

~Buddha

lady.urania

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Re: Death as Advisor
« Reply #50 on: April 12, 2009, 10:09:11 PM »
Death is a Dialogue between
The Spirit and the Dust.
"Dissolve" says Death—The Spirit "Sir
I have another Trust"—

Death doubts it—Argues from the Ground—
The Spirit turns away
Just laying off for evidence
An Overcoat of Clay.

~Emily Dickenson

lady.urania

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Re: Death as Advisor
« Reply #51 on: April 12, 2009, 10:09:50 PM »
All but Death, can be Adjusted—
Dynasties repaired—
Systems—settled in their Sockets—
Citadels—dissolved—

Wastes of Lives—resown with Colors
By Succeeding Springs—
Death—unto itself—Exception—
Is exempt from Change—

~Emily Dickenson

lady.urania

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Re: Death as Advisor
« Reply #52 on: April 13, 2009, 02:52:00 PM »
A warrior thinks of his death when things become unclear. The idea of death is the only thing that tempers our spirit.

Death is everywhere. It may be the headlights of a car on a hilltop in the distance behind. They may remain visible for a while, and disappear into the darkness as if they had been scooped away; only to appear on another hilltop, and then disappear again.

Those are the lights on the head of death. Death puts them on like a hat and then shoots off on a gallop, gaining on us, getting closer and closer. Sometimes it turns off its lights. But death never stops.

~CC
« Last Edit: April 13, 2009, 02:53:41 PM by Lady Urania »

Offline Definitive Journey

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Re: Death as Advisor
« Reply #53 on: April 13, 2009, 02:57:16 PM »
"Discipline is, indeed, the supreme joy of feeling reverent awe; of watching, with your mouth open, whatever is behind those secret doors."

lady.urania

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Re: Death as Advisor
« Reply #54 on: April 13, 2009, 03:28:30 PM »
Never?



Is there an infinite?

How could there be an infinite without death?

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Re: Death as Advisor
« Reply #55 on: April 13, 2009, 03:44:27 PM »
Is there an infinite?

How could there be an infinite without death?

Ok, now you've got my attention  ;)

Could you explain this a bit further?

"Discipline is, indeed, the supreme joy of feeling reverent awe; of watching, with your mouth open, whatever is behind those secret doors."

lady.urania

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Re: Death as Advisor
« Reply #56 on: April 13, 2009, 08:07:10 PM »
Ok, now you've got my attention  ;)

Could you explain this a bit further?



Look at your avatar - its moving.

If there was no death all would be stasis, then thered be no infinite, just stasis, no movement, no life.

Life and Death are as inseparable as yin and yang.

The finite, and the infinite. How could we know the infinite without knowing what is finite?

lady.urania

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Re: Death as Advisor
« Reply #57 on: April 13, 2009, 09:54:40 PM »
Keep 'in mind' too Kris, from A Separate Reality DJ said: "Your problem is that you want to understand everything, and that is not possible. If you insist on understanding you're not considering your entire life as a human being. Your stumbling block is intact... you are chained to reason."

Offline Definitive Journey

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Re: Death as Advisor
« Reply #58 on: April 14, 2009, 12:15:09 PM »
~

Hi Ellen.

You've brought a lot to the table here and I'd love to discuss this with you.  You'll have to bear with my slow responses though.  A tremendous experience came my way last night and I'm still reeling from it.  As Angela wiped tears from my face last night telling me what a bitch Maya is, it's becomming a bit more clear.  Another big chunk of 'me' fell away and I'm feeling a bit vulnerable at the moment, as well as having a tough time piecing anything together that 'makes sense.'

This 'experience' I label 'me' is still on a roller coaster ride.

K

"Discipline is, indeed, the supreme joy of feeling reverent awe; of watching, with your mouth open, whatever is behind those secret doors."

lady.urania

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Re: Death as Advisor
« Reply #59 on: April 14, 2009, 12:23:40 PM »
~

Hi Ellen.

You've brought a lot to the table here and I'd love to discuss this with you.  You'll have to bear with my slow responses though.  A tremendous experience came my way last night and I'm still reeling from it.  As Angela wiped tears from my face last night telling me what a bitch Maya is, it's becomming a bit more clear.  Another big chunk of 'me' fell away and I'm feeling a bit vulnerable at the moment, as well as having a tough time piecing anything together that 'makes sense.'

This 'experience' I label 'me' is still on a roller coaster ride.

K



There is a private section and you can pm me if you wanna talk about it you know?