Topic: Destiny, Fate, and Accidents

[Josh]

[In the 4th way, students must understand the knowledge they are given before attempting to practice it or apply it in any way.  Understanding is to replace blind belief or faith. 'Knowing' can only grow from understanding. It does not magically appear out of thin air. We grow in steps that might seem to be leaps, yet they are still steps after all. Concentrate on taking the steps, not where you believe yourself to be going.]

Perhaps some of you remember times when either Kris or I have mentioned the term 'accidents' in regards to the path and life in general. I cannot speak for Kris, but whenever I use this term in this way I am referring to the connotations and usage that G. I. Gurdjieff has placed on it. One of his major contentions was that man cannot 'do'. Every person thinks they can 'do' things because the circumstances of their life have led them to believe that they are somehow the cause of them. In actuality, the situations and circumstances of life are really the only thing in control, and they simply happen to us. These circumstances and happenings of life that are unrelated to manifestations of 'being-willpower' Gurdjieff has called 'accidents'. These happenings are not the result of uninterupted effort on one's part, and therefore they are essentially results of the world in action (at the level of society of man). The world pushes us, we move a little bit, it pushes a little more, we move a little more. We cannot say that it is our intent or actual effort that has placed us in the situations we find ourselves. We are only reacting to outside circumstance and basically floating like a leaf on the wind.

Gurdjieff placed untold importance on a certain diagram known as the enneagram. It is a specific map of how everything works (in all worlds). G. used to say that a man who knew how to use the enneagram correctly could unravel the secrets of the universe with it. He could be alone in the desert, and all he would have to do is trace it in the sand and apply his knowledge of how it works. He could go back to it again and again and learn something completely new each time. Of course, the real knowledge is how to use the enneagram, not the enneagram itself (which consists of nine points laid around a circle with lines connecting each of them together in a specific pattern).

G. contended that everything happened in octaves. Every manifestation, every event - from the ray of creation down to the simple action of a rock dropped in a pond - all of these things follow the same law of manifestation. This law says that there are seven stages of development to everything, with two missing semi-tones in between the 3rd and 4th, and the 7th and 8th stages. These missing semi-tones are where action along that line ceases unless a shock of further energy is applied. So many events at our level of life never reach past the 3rd stage of manifestation. This is how cycles are created. The manifestation begins and reaches a certain point where it can no longer be carried by the intial momentum; at that point a certain energy must be applied or the manifestation will cease. This is why rain stops once it has started, it does not continue to build into a full out world-flood. This is why people must continually eat more food every day, instead of recieving all nourishment at one sitting. Our physical organism is dependant on many laws that apply to our level of life, which is the life of man in general. We are under the influence of our specific nature at this level. It is the nature of earthly life. G. went on to say that most people actually live under the influence of even more laws than are really required of earthly life.  These people are serving the moon and therefore fall under some of the laws that would apply to such a life.  Accidents are manifestations of our level of life and essentially one of the laws that we fall under. They are incomplete manifestations of action - action without conscious influence. These manifestations are never completed by us, they only act upon us and force us to live with the results. This is why man cannot 'do'. He is but a pawn of incomprehensible forces. Man could become accustomed to and perhaps even learn to somehow cooperate with these forces and even bypass many of the laws that we fall under, except for the fact that he believes he already has. He believes he can 'do'. He believes he has 'will'. He believes he 'knows'. He believes he has 'understanding'. Man has none of these qualities and yet it is his unacceptance of this simple fact which will keep him from ever acquiring them - even though they are our birthright as the beings that we are. The only problem is that they are not provided by nature, we must earn them by our own hard work and conscious effort.

This is where I want to get to the actual reason for this post, as the law of accidents might be misinterpreted by some to mean chance coincidence or random occurence or some such thing. This meaning of accident has to do with the incompletion of real action, not some idea of randomness or chance. Everything that happens to anyone anywhere is under a divine plan sent straight from the Absolute. You will never be able to comprehend it, so dont bother trying. Instead, concern yourself with the result of these accidents.

When you incarnate or arise into this earthly life, you have a certain plan or destiny to everything that happens to you from the moment of birth to the moment of death. This plan or destiny is so vast and unimaginably comprehensive in it's scope that an infinitude of occurences can happen within its range. This means that you can benefit immensely from your life or even completely blow your chance to get anything done, and it is all within the range of your destiny. What we need to do is to forge our 'Fate' - a conscious cooperation with this destiny that maximizes all chances for the ultimate evolution and growth as a being.

Fate belongs to very few people. It is serious work. Fate is created by one from the ground up (so to speak), eventually linking with destiny and steering both in a new direction.  Accidents are destiny's way of trying to reach you from the outside. It is the interaction of your infinite impersonal destiny with your personal life. It steers you in certain directions so that you may learn from life. This kind of path is called the 'objective way'. Schools and systems of learning are termed 'subjective ways'. Because the scope of ones destiny is so immeasurably vast, infinite varieties of happenings are possible, (although many people will get stuck in loops of the same few happenings anyway - the lessons they fail to learn will never be repeated in the same way so they become more lost and could quite possibly spiral around this way into an entropic end). So although you cannot ever stray outside your destiny, you must realize that infinite things are possible within that destiny. What you must concern yourself with is the creation of your personal Fate - a personal Fate that has the potential to link you with your impersonal Destiny (at a level that is beyond the personal-impersonal dyad). This is the only way to fulfill the destiny that lies beyond earthly life.

The path of personal development that we have all embarked on has somehow led us here to participate together (somewhat) as a group on this internet message board forum.  As you all most likely know by now, starting upon this path itself has been a great step in terms of our destiny. We are all somewhat given to this destiny, even if we are only involved with the path in the most superficial way. Most of us are actually quite a bit more involved, and we take everything to heart. Those of us who are truly doing our best to further the work on ourselves will inevitably be drawn to help others work on themselves, and we will also be drawn to help further the work itself in general. These three lines of action are essential to our destiny in regards to the path.  They must all be acted on harmoniously, but if we are truly dedicated, our nature will steer us to do this anyway as that is the only way it will work at all. [on a side note: You dont have to be connected with a group to be able to help others work on themselves, and you dont have to be a teacher to help further the work in general]

Our Fate is the linking force that we will use to connect with our Destiny. Fate must be created by us by our own effort.  It obviously begins with the first choice we make to embark upon this path. From then on we must continue to do the work ourselves and be able to increase our efforts without straining ourselves or giving up. This will take supreme dedication, and yet there is always something we can do to take that next step, so there is never any real excuse to not be doing something (even if it is only consciously resting).  The line of action involving work on ourselves personally is what we begin with. It is also the one that our Fate has initially sprung from. So at first, we will be most concerned with the work on ourselves.

Our Destiny is constantly reaching out to us to guide us along. However, as I said earlier, the possibilities involved in ones destiny are literally infinite. That is why we must become involved to truly bring out the best and most beneficial possibilities (in terms of our personal development and evolution). As our destiny reaches out for us, we must reach out to it so that eventually we will make contact and become one with it. It is not anything like shooting in the dark, because our Destiny and Fate are magnetically attracted to each other - they naturally want to link and become one. Although there is a great distance we must cross, a great bridge we must build. The more we are able to help ourselves the more help we will recieve from our destiny. All we really have to do is meet it halfway and we can connect with it. The question is can we make it halfway?  That is the supreme effort I am talking about. We dont have to singlehandedly climb mount everest, but we do have to reach the guide that will lead us to the top. For most of us, this will take a monumental amount of work.

So we need to concentrate on taking each step as they come.  If we are looking ahead of ourselves, admiring the glorious land which we are approaching, we will not see the dark precipice that suddenly looms over the next hill and causes us to stumble and perhaps even fall. We must focus on the step right in front of us if we dont want this to happen. We must always concern ourselves with the present task at hand, because that is the task we must undertake to be able to make any progress towards a NEW task.

Become involved with every choice you make, every thought, every word, every movement, every expression of emotion. If you cant stay relaxed and supple in the face of adversity, how will you ever be able to really relax at all? If you cant think about what you want to think about all the time, how will you ever be able to really think at all? If you cant always make contact with your heart and feel every feeling you have, how will you ever be able to really feel at all? We need to eliminate our dependency on conditions. Conditional circumstances can only take us so far before they dissappear and leave us unsupported again. Today everything might be going our way and making us happy so work on ourselves becomes a pleasent icing on a cake, a joy to perform because we are filled with the vibrant energy of happiness; but tommorow everything may change... will we be able to keep up the effort? Today we might be alone for many hours and find ourselves slipping into deep internal silence very easily; but tommorrow we may be surrounded by people all the time... will we be able to keep up the effort?  Today we might be well fed and healthy, attaining a soothing state of physical balance in perfect relaxation; but tommorrow we might be hit by a car or get food poisoning...  will we be able to keep up the effort?

We cannot simply choose to accept part of our being and reject the unpleasant parts. If we want to work on unpleasant aspects, we must accept them wholeheartedly, not reject or avoid them. Otherwise we will never get close enough to do anything about them. The kind of selective attraction-repulsion impulse that is based on pain and pleasure (of any kind) is a very conditional arrangement.  Here's a piece of advice for everyone: the aspects of yourself you want to avoid working on the most are exactly the aspects you need to be working on the most. That is your indicator. The key for work on oneself is Harmony and Balance. Effort applied wrongly will affect one wrongly.  One-sided and imbalanced effort will result in a one-sided and imbalanced being. That is why the most supreme and highest effort involves ALL aspects of the work; it is the balancing of ALL forces of effort and action across the board - both personally and impersonally. It has been called impeccability by DJ and CC; and it is always within our reach. The more we can remain impeccable, the more chance our Fate has to grow.

The more harmonious effort we put forth, the more harmony we will see coming back to us in our lives. We will begin to see a creative or meaningful pattern to the events of our life. We will begin to see signs and omens reaching out to lead us. Simply heeding their call and acting upon them is not enough. We must make further effort to reach out ourselves and make contact with Spirit. This is where creating our Fate comes down to our presence in the moment. Whatever action we take, no matter how tiny and insignificant it may seem - it actually affects everything that exists, it all adds up. If your actions are always dragging you here and there, up and down, with no sustained momentum in any conscious direction, then you will continue to be at whims of circumstance until you make the effort to steer yourself in some way. Fate is a kind of conscious momentum that has the potential to become infinitely more than a personal effort.

- rajajuju  01/27/01

[Jennifer-]

Excellent sharing Joshua, thank you

[tommy2]

            It all


In just a few moments of extreme reflection I once asked myself, “Self, what ONE thing are you MOST afraid of?”  After a few months of extreme contemplation I could only answer, “My death.  I am afraid to die.”  And then, quite alarmingly, another part of me suddenly asked me, “Why do you think you were born?”  Not thinking for even a moment, ,I quickly answered back, “What?  I don’t understand the question!”

“Why do you think you were born?”, came the repeated question, from somewhere quite newly-found that very moment inside me.  “Isn’t your birth really just something your Dad and Mom told you and you have since taken so much for granted ?”  He continued, this other person inside me, “In childhood did you ever ask where you came from?  And didn’t your parents then tell you that you were born?”

I then thought to myself that this had really happened when I was about 8 or so and I totally accepted what I thought was an obvious answer.  Then this nagging voice, this other person I had not know of inside me ever before, reflected, “How can you have birth without death?”

After more months of meditation upon only this, I began to ask myself if were there two very distinct poles of the same concept, ANY concept?  Have I been alive all along, maybe forever?

When I accepted my folks’ seemingly obvious answer back then, was I automatically entering into an agreement with myself to fear this terrible, terrible thing called death?  i.e., did things, ANY thing, really end at all?  I mean, any THING?




I sat in shock, there on my studio slider, just a year ago.  Was also death something I had agreed with myself to accept as existing, like fear or loneliness or even happiness? Is what I am asking myself to do, is question really just another space-time event that doesn’t actually exist at all, except in my very personal inventory?

Then, laughingly, after much, much more meditation upon this internal conversation that seemed to suddenly enter my life, I asked myself, “Self, is the brute force of death just really a mystery only, at best?” 

Have I, I guess I am asking myself this moment, always been around? 

Is a bigger question more in the nature of, “What is the nature of my existence?”  Is mortality just something which has cast a spell over me, over almost all of  the humankind?  Should I, should WE see through our fears and let them motivate us to examine closer our own “true worth”?  i.e., isn’t “it all” about how I see myself?

Is THIS why I see my “true self” as a divine time-travelor?

Is THIS how I sense the continuity of all things?

And, finally ........ yeh, finally, is “it all” just about waking up, about doing whatever it takes to actually listen to what our existence is trying to tell you and I about you and I?

Or am I still not listening close enough?


Tommy Two Feathers, 030307

[Jennifer-]

Id meditate next on what is "I" perhaps that will bring clarity to all your questions.

  Jennifer

[Gunslinger]

I like where you are going with this, Tommy.  And where you've been.

I promise I'll answer your request about more on my idea of simultaneous lives v. reincarnation.

Take care,
Todd

[erik]

[In the 4th way, students must understand the knowledge they are given before attempting to practice it or apply it in any way.  Understanding is to replace blind belief or faith. 'Knowing' can only grow from understanding. It does not magically appear out of thin air. We grow in steps that might seem to be leaps, yet they are still steps after all. Concentrate on taking the steps, not where you believe yourself to be going.]

What does understanding something prior to experiencing it through practice means?
How is it possible?

For me true understanding of something only comes after experiencing it.
Experience always changes mental concepts existing beforehand and adds the actual depth to the thing understood.

[Gunslinger]

What does understanding something prior to experiencing it through practice means?
How is it possible?

For me true understanding of something only comes after experiencing it.
Experience always changes mental concepts existing beforehand and adds the actual depth to the thing understood.

I have some major issues with this piece, other than the opening paragraph, which isn't phrased very well.  In this, there are some things that need explaining to the student before practice, perhaps music for example, where the practice must be taught before it's actually done.  Otherwise, it's just a bunch of marks on a piece of paper.

You are right, practice must accompany theory in order for understanding to occur, in most instances.

In this piece, it is asserted that man is powerless, he can't do anything.  In so many words, that is patent bullshit.  But, he's entitled to his beliefs and opinion.

For example:

"One of his [Gurdjieff"s] major contentions was that man cannot 'do'."

"In actuality, the situations and circumstances of life are really the only thing in control, and they simply happen to us."

The rest of the piece takes those premises as true and tries to explain how we can "do" things and not be victims of Fate, without openly contradicting these premises.  Since this piece is in the realm of the belief system of logic as an expository essay, I'll stay within that belief system and say that this piece would have flunked out of Logic 101.

Respectully,
Todd

[tommy2]

Id meditate next on what is "I" perhaps that will bring clarity to all your questions.

  Jennifer

Are you asking me if I doubt my "I"?  I can surely doubt my view of it as complete.

Had lotsa snow here again.  Digging out our vehicles a little at a time.  Great stuff to walk in, if one is strolling.  Sounds seem to travel so very far across its' expanses.  Especially at night when the distant traffic here subsides.  Shhhhhhhh.

Saw a giant hawk on the way to work.  We both had something to do before the winds subside.

2F

[Josh]

What does understanding something prior to experiencing it through practice means?
How is it possible?

For me true understanding of something only comes after experiencing it.
Experience always changes mental concepts existing beforehand and adds the actual depth to the thing understood.

No, not understanding the process, understanding the objective of the practice.  For example, someone tells you to "ride your bike down the street".  Understanding the objective means that you would know that riding your bike down the street will allow you to get to the grocery store to buy milk.  It is different than just riding a bike because you were instructed to do so.

Experience is different.  You may not understand exactly how your muscles and bones coordinate in complete harmony to throw a ball at a specific target, but you can become very experienced at doing so regardless of this.

I have some major issues with this piece, other than the opening paragraph, which isn't phrased very well. 

The rest of the piece takes those premises as true and tries to explain how we can "do" things and not be victims of Fate, without openly contradicting these premises.  Since this piece is in the realm of the belief system of logic as an expository essay, I'll stay within that belief system and say that this piece would have flunked out of Logic 101.

Respectully,
Todd

The vast majority of people have "major issues" with the fundamental concepts of the 4th way.  Especially the insinuation that man cannot "do", does not have "will" or even "consciousness", and that he is a mindless robot completely asleep at the wheel. 

Logic 101 has no bearing on 4th way discussions because these discussions are not exoteric enough to use standard definitions.  This is not, as you put it "in the realm of the belief system of logic as an expository essay".  It is in the realm of 4th way teachings, and that is the system you must stay in if you wish to comment on it at that level.  Certain terms and concepts have definitions and meanings that are related only to that particular system, and some are even at odds with their ordinary use.  Of course it flunks out of ordinary "Logic 101" - that is the whole point.  It is at odds with ordinary thought by design.

Respectfully, someone who is not knowledgeable about the 4th way schools and that system of work wont be able to comprehend a discussion about it.  This particular post was addressed to people who were more or less familiar with the fundamentals of that system... as it was written at a time when the Toltec Naugal Forum was full of such people.

Not to insult or deride you in any way, and also Im not even sure I would recommend learning about such a system unless you are really drawn to it in other ways.  Its not relaxing or comforting.  The 4th way has a large number of very specific, complex, and tediously detailed concepts.  Its a great deal of material to go through.  Its alot of work.  Id have to say its not for most people.

[tommy2]

How is the 4th distinct from all other teachings?

Describe more the specialness you are telling  us of.

tom

[Michael]

I like that interpretation of accident, fate and destiny - I haven't studied the 4th way stuff that far, as I tired of O, but I am aware of G's constant reference to 'accidents', and this clarifies that.

I see it as a more subjective interpretation. By that I mean, if someone bumps into you in the street, it may not be an accident from a 'karmic' perspective, but from your own 'intentional' perspective it may well be an 'accident'. If your intention has reached out to 'destiny', and thus the world responds with 'fate', then the man bumping into you may well be your fate.

Correct me if I'm wrong in this, but it would seem then that we live in 'accident' until we set our intention and that calls destiny, which transforms accident into fate. And there is still room for accidents outside this fate.

The meanings are different here than the common understanding. Fate is usually used to describe the force of events that command our life when we have no powerful intent. Thus G's 'accident' equates to the common understanding of 'fate'.

The 'karmic' influences view is that everything has an antecedent somewhere, and the debate is weather a 'true' accident can occur - ie where there is no antecedent anywhere in time and space. The purest karmicist would thus say accidents are impossible, and the only un-anteceded act was the very first explosion of 'action' from 'stillness', at the dawn of time, which was not accidental in some odd way.

G's use of the word accident, from your text, would say that without intent, everything is basically accident, weather there are karmic antecedents or not is irrelevant, because the prime condition is missing, without which we are flotsam whatever world view you hold.

Then destiny stands there as a possibility, or possibilities, once we acquire will and intent. When this happens, the world responds to us, and offers 'meaningful' accidents, which then G calls 'fate', which if we grasp, can assist us towards our destiny. This reminds me of DJ's similar claim about dreams. Once we set our feet on the Path with real intent, then dreams can be interpreted with value, but until then they are meaningless because there is no central thread around which to reference our interpretation. But more than that, our dreams actually rally to supply support for our intent.

I suppose it is semantics, about which G was very particular, lamenting the sloppiness of word meanings. But the critical point that many people, esp on ‘spiritual’ internet forums fly into a rage about, is that without real intent that can only come from real will, which is a very rare thing, we are pissing in the wind when we claim to be able ‘affect’ the world, either physically or psychically. Mostly we are victims of forces beyond our ken or control, and to save face, we rally behind afterwards and claim that’s what we had wanted to do in the first place.

If we have never done something ‘for no reason whatsoever’, then we haven’t even begun to glimpse the meaning of this.

[erik]

No, not understanding the process, understanding the objective of the practice.  For example, someone tells you to "ride your bike down the street".  Understanding the objective means that you would know that riding your bike down the street will allow you to get to the grocery store to buy milk.  It is different than just riding a bike because you were instructed to do so.

Experience is different.  You may not understand exactly how your muscles and bones coordinate in complete harmony to throw a ball at a specific target, but you can become very experienced at doing so regardless of this.

Cheers!
This clarifies it!

[Gunslinger]

I like that interpretation of accident, fate and destiny - I haven't studied the 4th way stuff that far, as I tired of O, but I am aware of G's constant reference to 'accidents', and this clarifies that.

I see it as a more subjective interpretation. By that I mean, if someone bumps into you in the street, it may not be an accident from a 'karmic' perspective, but from your own 'intentional' perspective it may well be an 'accident'. If your intention has reached out to 'destiny', and thus the world responds with 'fate', then the man bumping into you may well be your fate.

Correct me if I'm wrong in this, but it would seem then that we live in 'accident' until we set our intention and that calls destiny, which transforms accident into fate. And there is still room for accidents outside this fate.

The meanings are different here than the common understanding. Fate is usually used to describe the force of events that command our life when we have no powerful intent. Thus G's 'accident' equates to the common understanding of 'fate'.

The 'karmic' influences view is that everything has an antecedent somewhere, and the debate is weather a 'true' accident can occur - ie where there is no antecedent anywhere in time and space. The purest karmicist would thus say accidents are impossible, and the only un-anteceded act was the very first explosion of 'action' from 'stillness', at the dawn of time, which was not accidental in some odd way.

G's use of the word accident, from your text, would say that without intent, everything is basically accident, weather there are karmic antecedents or not is irrelevant, because the prime condition is missing, without which we are flotsam whatever world view you hold.

Then destiny stands there as a possibility, or possibilities, once we acquire will and intent. When this happens, the world responds to us, and offers 'meaningful' accidents, which then G calls 'fate', which if we grasp, can assist us towards our destiny. This reminds me of DJ's similar claim about dreams. Once we set our feet on the Path with real intent, then dreams can be interpreted with value, but until then they are meaningless because there is no central thread around which to reference our interpretation. But more than that, our dreams actually rally to supply support for our intent.

I suppose it is semantics, about which G was very particular, lamenting the sloppiness of word meanings. But the critical point that many people, esp on ‘spiritual’ internet forums fly into a rage about, is that without real intent that can only come from real will, which is a very rare thing, we are pissing in the wind when we claim to be able ‘affect’ the world, either physically or psychically. Mostly we are victims of forces beyond our ken or control, and to save face, we rally behind afterwards and claim that’s what we had wanted to do in the first place.

If we have never done something ‘for no reason whatsoever’, then we haven’t even begun to glimpse the meaning of this.

Okay, this makes sense.  It's a far cry from the piece at the top of the thread.   I've read much of this 4th way stuff way back in the spaces between.  Before I found my will and intent.  It didn't make sense then, either.  It seemed then, and seems now, that it was intended to destroy the mind, to make it malleable to others' influence.  It does not cleanse the  mind to make it more efficient and supple, as say, Don Juan's techniques in "The Teachings of don Juan, A Yaqui Way of Knowledge".

[Jahn]

Most of this 4th way stuff seems ok. Some may be useful, some not. What I have found lately is this with the full cycle related to the missing tangents in the octave that need a push or a leap. In Toltec terms i understand that this means that to continue in a cycle where a single step is not enough to come forward with, then we must do a action of power. That is in other terms a manifestation of our (hopefully) unbending intent.

[daphne]

Concentrate on taking the steps, not where you believe yourself to be going.

I like this.