Author Topic: Destiny, Fate, and Accidents  (Read 1101 times)

Offline Nick

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Re: Destiny, Fate, and Accidents
« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2007, 05:04:46 AM »

Okay, this makes sense.  It's a far cry from the piece at the top of the thread.   I've read much of this 4th way stuff way back in the spaces between.  Before I found my will and intent.  It didn't make sense then, either.  It seemed then, and seems now, that it was intended to destroy the mind, to make it malleable to others' influence.  It does not cleanse the  mind to make it more efficient and supple, as say, Don Juan's techniques in "The Teachings of don Juan, A Yaqui Way of Knowledge".

I have heard the same thing be said of Don Juan's teachings but we know this not to be true. To the contrary it is quite the opposite where some believe that Don Juan's teachings make us more malleable others you and I believe they cleanse the mind to make it more efficient and supple.

In this case it is the same phenomenon. You because of your beliefs see Gurdjieff's techniques one way those who understand see it differently.

These types of misunderstandings happen in all areas were there is a specialized type of knowledge that others have not fully made themselves familiar with.

Others for example have considered me to be selfish because I make my self a priority, because I care for myself very much. Others see this as selfish and consider me to be more self important than others when in fact caring for  myself the way I do is a different kind of self-importance that is empowering to me and others who meet me. Unlike egotistic self-importance that is harmful to others in its neglect of others. I know that to truly care for myself I must care for those around me.


As far as Gurdjieff's logic, using the same way of looking at it, Gurdjieff's logic is more holistic. The reason I am drawn to Gurdjieff is that I discovered the enneagram on my own as a child just by personal inspiration. I had never read a book about it it just came to me when I was thinking about opposites and balance. Logic as I'm sure you know is all about opposites and this is what makes the enneagram so logically complete. But, like raja has said no it is not "conventional" logic. I would compare it to the "logic" that nature fallows itself. Mankind may create it's own system but nature has a system already that we can not help but fallow often quite unconsciously, the enneagram simply reflects the logic of the patterns of nature itself.

In here though I am using the word logic in a different way. Not the logic man made but the logic of why the nature is the way it is. Why planets are round, why the earth rotates around the sun, why things flow in cycles etc etc.
"As long as we confuse the myriad forms of the divine lila with reality, without perceiving the unity of Brahman underlying all these forms, we are under the spell of maya..."
 -Fritjof Capra, The Tao of Physics: An Exploration of the Parallels between Modern Physics and Eastern Mysticism

Gunslinger

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Re: Destiny, Fate, and Accidents
« Reply #16 on: March 05, 2007, 06:56:24 AM »
Just to emphasize my point, and point of view...

Nature is our creation.  There's no such things as accidents.  The universe intentionally acts out every possibility.  Logic of any sort is a sytem of thought organization.  It is not absolute.  Some logical systems tolerate contradiction.  The Aristotelian and Socratic logic that I was trained with does not.  I'll accept that some ways are different than mine, that's okay.  My purpose is self-creation and experience, and translating that experience to others.  Although I don't think opposite philosophies are right or wrong, they don't facillitate my my purpose.

erik

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Re: Destiny, Fate, and Accidents
« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2007, 07:05:44 AM »
Nature is our creation.

Is it?
Maybe description of it is, but not the nature itself.

Can you create Earth? Sentient being as it is?
Or can you create Moon?
Or Sun - Eagle as it is?

Offline tommy2

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Re: Destiny, Fate, and Accidents
« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2007, 07:39:19 AM »
Maybe a more vivid description of what you call "nature" would be in order here, G-slinger.

t
t2f

Gunslinger

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Re: Destiny, Fate, and Accidents
« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2007, 08:02:41 AM »
Is it?
Maybe description of it is, but not the nature itself.
Can you create Earth? Sentient being as it is?
Or can you create Moon?
Or Sun - Eagle as it is?

I said "OUR" creation, for one thing, and that's not to slide the issue.  My reality is created by me with my perception, sun and moon and stars, included.  We agree, all of us, constantly, to be creating this universe.  If we didn't, it wouldn't be here in an instant.  It would just be the energy that it is, perhaps configured by consciousness some other way.  As a matter of fact, it is that, too.

We do not exist outside of nature, we are it, and it is us (part of us, anyway.)  The Earth may be sentient, I don't know.  I do know it is consciousness, as is everything (if I want to concede for the moment that there's really "things".)  We are so much more than we think we are; thinking we are these puny consciousnesses stuck in human bodies is very discounting of us.

Gunslinger

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Re: Destiny, Fate, and Accidents
« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2007, 08:03:55 AM »
Maybe a more vivid description of what you call "nature" would be in order here, G-slinger.
t

Okay, I promised I would.  Be back in a bit with a new thread.  :-)

erik

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Re: Destiny, Fate, and Accidents
« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2007, 08:32:29 AM »
We are so much more than we think we are; thinking we are these puny consciousnesses stuck in human bodies is very discounting of us.

Just remember - we are 'made' and 'eaten' by Eagle.
Greatness and creating anything ends there.

When we are at our peak power - we are fully aligned with Eagle's command.
At our hour of glory and magnificence we create what Eagle creates and wants us to create.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2007, 08:34:40 AM by Sundance Kid »

Gunslinger

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Re: Destiny, Fate, and Accidents
« Reply #22 on: March 05, 2007, 08:41:51 AM »
You know, Eric, you are entitled to believe that.  It's neither right or wrong.  Your belief is the reality of it.  However, it is a real test of my acceptance to not rip that to shreds.

I create my own reality, and I don't create yours.  If you want to believe that you are a slave to a feathered form of the Form of Man, then so be it.  Quetzlcoatl, perhaps?   ;D

You are not wrong to believe that.  You are not right either.  Either way, it matters not.  Thank you for the lesson in acceptance.

Peace and letting this be.

Todd

erik

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Re: Destiny, Fate, and Accidents
« Reply #23 on: March 05, 2007, 08:46:31 AM »
I was aming at one, and one thing only - all theories are to be tested in practice.
Claim regarding creating 'nature' needs to be tested.

I took an easier option - I put forward statements tested by generations of Toltecs.

erik

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Re: Destiny, Fate, and Accidents
« Reply #24 on: March 05, 2007, 09:06:31 AM »
The test on creating Sun=Eagle would be actually quite interesting one. :)

If you went to Eagle in dreaming, it ought to be quite an effort to avoid being crushed by its sheer power (according to Toltecs)

Moreover, after death that being - Sun/Eagle - ought to still be there to assimilate your consciousness.

Hence the test would be twofold - in dreaming while being alive and after death. :)

Gunslinger

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Re: Destiny, Fate, and Accidents
« Reply #25 on: March 05, 2007, 12:53:15 PM »
If there's one thing that science has taught us it is that each experience is unique.  There will be none other like it.  What has been experienced in the past is not an absolute. Neither the Toltecs nor anyone else is special nor priviledged to be an exception in that regard.

To one extent or another, the results of a test or an experiment are determined by the set up of the experiment or test, the beliefs of the experimenter, and the perception of the test grader.

I appreciate your comedown from the absolute statements of before.

erik

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Re: Destiny, Fate, and Accidents
« Reply #26 on: March 05, 2007, 03:25:26 PM »
Don't get me wrong. :)
Science is focused on experience and experiments that can be repeated and tested many times over so that laws and regularities can be formulated (in this context there is strong argument whether social science is science at all)
So are Toltecs. They work in groups so that perception of one is always tested by others.
My point is - there is reality beyond our wishes and desires and will.
Sun/Eagle is the best example - it creates us and not the other way round.
We would never have enough energy to create and sustain life in Solar system.
There's nothing we can do about it - Eagle consumes our awareness (life experience with awareness, to be precise) after death regardless.
We cannot get rid of it even by killing ourselves.
That was my point - we gonna test this thing regardless of our beliefs.
Our lives are set up this way.

So what could be the practical test of your beliefs regarding creating nature?
What can you actually physically create?
« Last Edit: March 05, 2007, 06:29:58 PM by Sundance Kid »

Offline daphne

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Re: Destiny, Fate, and Accidents
« Reply #27 on: March 05, 2007, 08:05:47 PM »
I create my own reality, and I don't create yours.  If you want to believe that you are a slave to a feathered form of the Form of Man, then so be it.  Quetzlcoatl, perhaps?   ;D 

Perhaps I'm being picky here.. I see it rather as I am the creator of my own expereince - reality? hmm.. I don't know much about that!! Still trying to understand this whole thing around "reality"!   :)

You are not wrong to believe that.  You are not right either.  Either way, it matters not.  Thank you for the lesson in acceptance.


"Not wrong, not right".. heh.. you did mention you were into law!!   :D

I am beginning to understand your "it matters not". For myself, when something "matters not" I don't exchange at all in it. As you can see, this whole 'thing' around "reality" does matter to me, hence my correspondence!  ;)
"The compulsion to possess and hold on to things is not unique. Everyone who wants to follow the warrior's path has to rid himself of this fixation in order not to focus our dreaming body on the weak face of the second attention." - The Eagle's Gift

Gunslinger

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Re: Destiny, Fate, and Accidents
« Reply #28 on: March 06, 2007, 01:44:54 AM »
My point is - there is reality beyond our wishes and desires and will.

yes, but if we don't want to incorporate it, we won't.

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Sun/Eagle is the best example - it creates us and not the other way round.
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It is acceptable if you want to name your god YHWH, the Sun, Queztlcoatle, or The Eagle.  :-)

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We would never have enough energy to create and sustain life in Solar system.

There's enough energy to create whatever we want.  We are not closed systems, and there are no closed systems in the universe.

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There's nothing we can do about it - Eagle consumes our awareness (life experience with awareness, to be precise) after death regardless.

Really?  Okay.

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That was my point - we gonna test this thing regardless of our beliefs.
Our lives are set up this way.

Acknowledged.  I would say our lives are set up "this" way, BY US.

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So what could be the practical test of your beliefs regarding creating nature?
What can you actually physically create?

Life IS the practical test.  Your life is your practicum.  My life is mine.  I'm not responsible for yours.  It's all an experiment in experience and creation.  It's not my responsiblity to assure you or convince you.  I do know that practical creation happens, whether we are paying attention or not, to ourselves, to our beliefs, to our automatic responses, to what we are focusing on, to what we are doing, thinking, and feeling.  We can keep our power, or we can give it away to others and to our beliefs.  Either way, we create our own reality on purpose or by default.

Fear is not the first enemy of the warrior.  Self-doubt is.

Gunslinger

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Re: Destiny, Fate, and Accidents
« Reply #29 on: March 06, 2007, 01:52:54 AM »
Perhaps I'm being picky here.. I see it rather as I am the creator of my own expereince - reality? hmm.. I don't know much about that!! Still trying to understand this whole thing around "reality"!   :)

What is your experience?  Your reality?  *smiles*

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"Not wrong, not right".. heh.. you did mention you were into law!!   :D

*smiles* Yes I did!!  It's a game.  It's a giant belief system in which I play.  It is remunerative.  It's a "practice" in acceptance and a demonstration of most of the ways the belief system of duplicity is applied.

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I am beginning to understand your "it matters not". For myself, when something "matters not" I don't exchange at all in it. As you can see, this whole 'thing' around "reality" does matter to me, hence my correspondence!  ;)

I'm acknowledging and appreciating your interest.  :-)  Reality matters.  Experience matters.  Beliefs do not, unless we want them to.

 

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