Author Topic: Gurdjieff  (Read 675 times)

Offline Michael

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Gurdjieff
« on: May 12, 2007, 01:53:40 PM »
I have been waiting for an appropriate time to start this area, and now looks good. I want to introduce a lot of ideas and stories from Gurdjieff, as for us who have been influenced by CC's books, Gurdjieff is one of the most similar characters I know.

Just as a background, Gurdjieff came from the Armenia area of Southern Caucasus, and he travelled widely with the sole intent of acquiring knowledge. He was caught up in the political struggles in old Russia, at one time being put forward as a challenger to Rasputin. he of course had his own agenda and wanted none of that, although the story of his political involvements is untold as far as I know - considering he was into everything and anything, it wouldn't surprise me if there is a story there.

He began teaching in Russia, in two separate towns, with two separate groups, with two completely separate approaches, at the same time. One was more intellectual than the other. When the war became critical, he escorted a group of his people out of Russia over the mountains, through many dangerous adventures, till they eventually ended up in Turkey (I think, or close to around there), where he met a famous dancer and took over her classes to teach his Sufi dance methods.

Eventually he settled in France at his now renown Fontainebleau, where he attempted to set up a dynamic of learning, that would operate as a high level energy machine to affect the course of humanity. He failed at this much to his disappointment, and astonishment at the forces that arose to thwart him - I gather he was considerably disturbed by that, although he did succeed partially.

The noticeable thing about Gurdjieff is that he gave only pieces of information to everyone, so that it was only later people put some of those pieces together. Each piece on its own was not fully useful without the pieces he gave to others. This meant that much that you read and hear is partial, and that one day, you come across a snippet that makes some other part you heard, completely change meaning.

We know of him through his books, the books of those who knew and worked with him, plus an ongoing group of people who have a direct link back, and to whom a wholy different set of knowledge was imparted, esp his dance. I have had no experience with that organisation, although I did hear one principle person in Australia speak on the radio once, and I was very impressed indeed - and that does not often happen.

My knowledge of him and his work comes from his own written material, his music, and a wide selection of books by others who were affected by him. There is such a wide and varied array of people who knew him, and were affected by him, and each of their stories is so different. Also I am aware of large volumes of transcripts from his workshops at Fontainebleau, but I haven't studied those either, although someone in my town does have them.

I want to relate teaching stories from or about him, and to bring his considerable force for absolute dedication to spiritual advancement, into this forum, as I have been more impressed with him than almost any other except DJ. But he was a trickster of the highest order, so you have to keep digging to get the bone - that was his whole philosophy, if you don't make effort, you gain nothing.

Offline elliot

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Re: Gurdjieff
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2007, 02:05:04 PM »
This man Gurdjieff I have heard much talk of over the years in these forums.  Yet I have not once come across any of his written work.  Where would you recommend I start.  I have always been deeply interested in the name and the work. 
"O great creator of being, grant us one more hour / to perform our art and perfect our lives."    Jim Morrison

Offline Nick

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Re: Gurdjieff
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2007, 05:11:24 AM »
So, true about making effort. I admit to having been sooo lazy with studying his work. I find my self regularly suprised by snippets I come across. I am in no way an expert, you obviously know more than I, but I love him so much. Now is the time for me to learn more. esp. since you said this:
"Eventually he settled in France at his now renown Fontainebleau, where he attempted to set up a dynamic of learning, that would operate as a high level energy machine to affect the course of humanity. He failed at this much to his disappointment, and astonishment at the forces that arose to thwart him - I gather he was considerably disturbed by that, although he did succeed partially."

I knew of Fontainebleau but I never heard of it described as a high level energy machine designed to affect the course of humanity. This...please don't laugh ;).....has long been my dream. Ever since I started dreaming lofty dreams I thought of creating a school that would bring others to the "light" so to speak. I have even perceived it as you describe it as a "high energy machine".
I know I am no were near where I need to be to create something so great, but I can dream and work my ars off. 

I'm happy you included this section   :-*
"As long as we confuse the myriad forms of the divine lila with reality, without perceiving the unity of Brahman underlying all these forms, we are under the spell of maya..."
 -Fritjof Capra, The Tao of Physics: An Exploration of the Parallels between Modern Physics and Eastern Mysticism

Offline Nick

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Re: Gurdjieff
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2007, 05:15:33 AM »
This man Gurdjieff I have heard much talk of over the years in these forums.  Yet I have not once come across any of his written work.  Where would you recommend I start.  I have always been deeply interested in the name and the work. 

lol, Don't you recall months ago I sent you an e-mail about books you could start with? You said the same thing to me then.

I've gone back to reread one of his books, I will make a post about it and will try to regularly post what I am learning from it, maybe this will help keep me motivated to dig through this weighty material. We'll have to see what I have time for though I don't want to set an unrealistic goal for myself.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2007, 05:22:31 AM by Ian »
"As long as we confuse the myriad forms of the divine lila with reality, without perceiving the unity of Brahman underlying all these forms, we are under the spell of maya..."
 -Fritjof Capra, The Tao of Physics: An Exploration of the Parallels between Modern Physics and Eastern Mysticism

Offline elliot

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Re: Gurdjieff
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2007, 01:02:07 PM »
No I don't.  I don't ever recall recieving an email from you....  Ever.  I'm sorry, do we know each other??
"O great creator of being, grant us one more hour / to perform our art and perfect our lives."    Jim Morrison

Offline Nick

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Re: Gurdjieff
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2007, 10:22:14 PM »
Dude!  :P  artnelso@gmail.com

 ::)  we were going to try and meet up? wow. lol. 

see:

http://restlesssoma.com.au/soma/index.php?topic=1421.msg11832#msg11832

ever watch the movie Memento? maybe you need to tattoo these things to your body.   :-*
« Last Edit: May 13, 2007, 10:24:26 PM by Ian »
"As long as we confuse the myriad forms of the divine lila with reality, without perceiving the unity of Brahman underlying all these forms, we are under the spell of maya..."
 -Fritjof Capra, The Tao of Physics: An Exploration of the Parallels between Modern Physics and Eastern Mysticism

Offline elliot

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Re: Gurdjieff
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2007, 01:44:45 AM »
haahahahahha  got you!!!

lol...
"O great creator of being, grant us one more hour / to perform our art and perfect our lives."    Jim Morrison

Offline Nick

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Re: Gurdjieff
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2007, 03:42:56 AM »
rofl. i thought you were serious  ::)

you never know.
"As long as we confuse the myriad forms of the divine lila with reality, without perceiving the unity of Brahman underlying all these forms, we are under the spell of maya..."
 -Fritjof Capra, The Tao of Physics: An Exploration of the Parallels between Modern Physics and Eastern Mysticism

Offline elliot

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Re: Gurdjieff
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2007, 04:15:24 AM »
yeah, humors a rare commodity in these formats.  i'll work on that
"O great creator of being, grant us one more hour / to perform our art and perfect our lives."    Jim Morrison

Offline Nick

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Re: Gurdjieff
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2007, 10:46:56 AM »
 ;) a good sense of humor the true path to enlightenment.
"As long as we confuse the myriad forms of the divine lila with reality, without perceiving the unity of Brahman underlying all these forms, we are under the spell of maya..."
 -Fritjof Capra, The Tao of Physics: An Exploration of the Parallels between Modern Physics and Eastern Mysticism

Offline Zamurito

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Re: Gurdjieff
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2007, 09:44:49 AM »
Greetings Michael.

Hope you don't mind me chopping up your post. 

Approximately 10 years ago I was shown some information concerning Gurdjieff, but I suppose I wasn't 'ready' at that time to examine it.  I was given two books by Ouspinsky, The Fourth Way, and In Search of the Miraculous.  Started briefly to read one, can't remember which, but nothing came of it.   

Always seems interesting how others may show you material, and it sits until one is ready, then by an omen of some kind, you're drawn back into it.  What's interesting as well, is one of the books, The Fourth Way, I believe, is an original print from 1957.  (I could be wrong on which book it is...I don't have either in front of me.)

Being accepted to this list, and reading in this folder, drew my attention once again back to this information.  Oh, and how interesting it is!

I've completed Meetings with Remarkable Men, and have started on Beezlebub.  I've also performed numerous searches on the Internet for information on Gurdjieff and his Teachings.  Again, I find his 'way' very interesting. 

I have a few more comments interdispursed below.....I'm going to cut out your comments that I'm not referring to, hoping to keep it brief.

He began teaching in Russia, in two separate towns, with two separate groups, with two completely separate approaches, at the same time. One was more intellectual than the other.

This I did not know.  In his book Meetings, I don't recall him mentioning two seperate groups.  I've only read it once, perhaps I've missed it.

When the war became critical, he escorted a group of his people out of Russia over the mountains, through many dangerous adventures, till they eventually ended up in Turkey (I think, or close to around there), where he met a famous dancer and took over her classes to teach his Sufi dance methods.

He failed to mention concerning the 'famous dancer,' or anything concerning Sufi dancing.  Is this is the later books?  I'm on a mission to find all information I can  ;)

The noticeable thing about Gurdjieff is that he gave only pieces of information to everyone, so that it was only later people put some of those pieces together. Each piece on its own was not fully useful without the pieces he gave to others. This meant that much that you read and hear is partial, and that one day, you come across a snippet that makes some other part you heard, completely change meaning.

Interesting.  I'm starting to see that already.  (Concerning pieces of information given to different individuals.) 

Question:  Do you know what the 'trouble' was between the Gurdjieff 'school of thought,' and the Ouspensky 'school of thought?'  Seems some have attempted to make peace, but I sense they are at odds.  Possibly not as much now, but I sense that 50 years ago there 'wasn't much love' between the two schools  ;D 

Also I am aware of large volumes of transcripts from his workshops at Fontainebleau, but I haven't studied those either, although someone in my town does have them.

Now these I'd love to see!  Would you be able to obtain these, or copies of these?  I'd pay to have them shipped, and bandaged up if they're in bad shape. 

Thanks again,

z
"Discipline is, indeed, the supreme joy of feeling reverent awe; of watching, with your mouth open, whatever is behind those secret doors."

Offline Michael

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Re: Gurdjieff
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2007, 01:17:41 PM »
hello Zam, i'll try to give a few responses:

His book Meetings with Remarkable Men is not to be read autobiographically, and so there is an issue about which bits are from his own life and which he has made up to make a point. My guess is that most of it is actual from his life, but he has manipulated it to emphasise specific things.

However, that book has no reference to when he 'went public'. It deals with his own explorational journeys for knowledge. Once that time was complete he returned to Russia. From then on he never discussed much about his actual life in his works. In Beelzebub he did talk about his failure to heal his wife from cancer.

In Life Is Real Only Then, When "I Am", which should be read last, he also gave more details of actual events and relationships, but not much.

You have to read other's accounts, and I can't always recall which bits I got from where. A good book of their escape from Russia is the one written by the musician Thomas deHartmann and his wife, who was very interesting also. There are so many books, I'll take a look in my library sometime to reference some.

Ouspensky is an awkward connection. The Fourth Way is G's ideas which he told O in those early days in Moscow or St Petersburg - I forget which - and O did more work himself to understand. I know nothing of O's following, except that he was quite popular. G kept him at a distance because like many others he failed a crucial test, and O was devastated that he could never regain his intimate connection with G.

The Fourth Way is interesting, and worth reading although I only got through a third of it myself. The commonly held view is that O was never able to actualise this knowledge, which is a reason why G stopped that kind of intellectual teaching, as he saw it was extremely limited in result.

There is one very interesting book by O about this split, and some very psychic experiences he had with G. G apparently told him he had to do something, to break the hold of his 'Chief Feature', which O refused to relate and refused to accept. That is the way of our Chief Feature - G said you could destroy someone by presenting them with it before they are ready.

Sufi (? - everything with G is an admix) dancing was his main thing - he even said of himself that he was a dance teacher. I believe you have to join his ongoing organisation to get that line of his knowledge.

I very much doubt I could get you the workshop material, as I haven't seen that man for over 20 years, although I have recently heard he still lives here. I have never seen those volumes anywhere else, but they must be available somewhere.

Offline Zamurito

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Re: Gurdjieff
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2007, 01:40:07 PM »
Thank you Michael for your reply.

z
"Discipline is, indeed, the supreme joy of feeling reverent awe; of watching, with your mouth open, whatever is behind those secret doors."

Offline Michael

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Re: Gurdjieff
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2007, 09:06:54 PM »
thanks for the question - i love gurdjieff

Offline Michael

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Re: Gurdjieff
« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2009, 09:39:14 PM »
G was escaping from Russia during the revolution troubles - he was guided his group over the mountains and through close encounters to the southern areas of safety.

It was highly dangerous, and in the middle, the musician, Thomas de Hartmann, fell ill.

They had to find help for the man, so G and the de Hartmann's wife Olga, travelled in an old cart to somewhere for treatment, then returned. It was a long and tiring journey. Olga stayed beside her husband the whole way, helping him in any way she could.

On the return journey, G looked around and looked at Olga - she later said this was the first time he really noticed her. She was completely exhausted - G reached out and touched her forehead with his finger. She immediately felt a wave of new energy flood into her, so she could keep going and tend to Thomas.

What happened, was that G realised for the first time that Olga was a person of 'substance'. A very rare thing. It was the degree of pushing herself way beyond her limitations that caught his attention.

G fell in love with Olga, but this is little known. It was only at their last meeting, years later in France, that she recounted something. G used her extensively, even after Thomas died, as one of the main people in his establishment. She was part of the main frame of his activities, always doing the books or whatever her tasks.

G wanted to sleep with her at the last - he was keen on sex - but she refused. They said good bye at the train station, and Olga saw something very unusual in G's eyes. He said something to her, and she never saw him again.

Very very few people possess the ability to do their tasks no matter what, and push themselves beyond their known boundaries, into the that world of deep power that all have but never find.

<span data-s9e-mediaembed="youtube" style="display:inline-block;width:100%;max-width:640px"><span style="display:block;overflow:hidden;position:relative;padding-bottom:56.25%"><iframe allowfullscreen="" loading="lazy" scrolling="no" style="background:url(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/GnaaXk9OxA0/hqdefault.jpg) 50% 50% / cover;border:0;height:100%;left:0;position:absolute;width:100%" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/GnaaXk9OxA0"></iframe></span></span><br /><a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/GnaaXk9OxA0&amp;hl=en&amp;fs=1" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/GnaaXk9OxA0&amp;hl=en&amp;fs=1</a>
« Last Edit: March 19, 2009, 09:43:53 PM by Michael »

 

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