Topic: Folly

[Jennifer-]

Once a man learns to see he finds himself alone in the world with nothing but folly. Your acts, as well as the acts of your fellow men in general, appear to be important to you because you have learned to think they are important.

ASR DJ

[erik]

I am still pondering the "inevitable march..." that Michael posted.

What makes the existence at the human plain a folly? Seeing? Or is it rather a realisation that regardless of what we do, the life is a finite experience that inevitably will be over in its own good time? Realisation that our society spends so much time on rather meaningless things and forces us to do it as well?

Folly seems to be self-reinforcing. Realisation that something is folly tends to drive some people deeper and deeper into it in vain hope that the nagging sensation of pointlessness would go away. Folly is not liberating experience - one liberates self through realisations that enable sustaining the folly. Folly is frequently used as a self-deception: when something becomes emotionally overwhelming, one defines it as a folly and manages to keep doing it with somewhat lesser emotional involvement.

And yet, there is a folly. The activity, thoughts and feelings that mask a vast emptiness behind them.

[Taimyr]

It is "folly" because it is all temporary, only in this physical existence. When a person lives only for the temporary, then life is meaningless. When a person lives also for that what is more than human existence, then this life can be used as tool.

But I don't think the feeling of pointlesness really goes away while living here, because that is what most of the human population deals with and the minority have to live among this crap. Which is probably the reason we are here in the first place, but still...

What I have understood, is that the feeling of emptiness is kind of a middle phase, after emptiness there is more.

For me I think I would distinguish two things. One is simply physical life on Earth and the second thing is the stupidity of human race. I know that physical life ends at some point and it is temporary, but it could be different in many ways if humans in general weren't so stupid and wouldn't have brought all this into what it is.

[Michael]

Apropos this theme, it might be of interest to know that a recent study in the USA discovered that political and religious affiliations filtered out, somewhere around a third or more of US citizens do not want to do anything about Global Warming even if it is true, because they believe doing so is futile. Why? Because the Second Coming is so close there is no point in bothering about the earth's climate situation.

[erik]

The Second Coming is so close there is no point in bothering about the earth's climate situation.

Wonderful news!

[Michael]

I said to Julie, "Thank god for that - no need to worry about the future anymore."

[Jahn]

I get support for my theory all the time. While the masses increase (we are about 7 billion souls) stupidity increase as a significant factor as well among humanity. Deforestation is one such stupid thing. Consuming large amounts of soda and sugar is another significant phenomena.

I suppose this is some kind of adverse logic regading the mass of a poulation. But who really knows? One thing that is sure is that it was even worse regarding stupidity and darkness in the dark ages, but that stupidity did not affect that many. People in common could live in harmony with their land and surroundings, without being affected. Now we share the actions of mankind in a more direct way.

[erik]

Stupidity? It is a point that needs a closer look. Nick pointed somewhere that the average IQ of humanity keeps going up, and I tend to concur. For instance, here's Einstein's puzzle:

Let us assume that there are five houses of different colors next to each other on the same road. In each house lives a man of a different nationality. Every man has his favorite drink, his favorite brand of cigarettes, and keeps pets of a particular kind.

The Englishman lives in the red house.
The Swede keeps dogs.
The Dane drinks tea.
The green house is just to the left of the white one.
The owner of the green house drinks coffee.
The Pall Mall smoker keeps birds.
The owner of the yellow house smokes Dunhills.
The man in the center house drinks milk.
The Norwegian lives in the first house.
The Blend smoker has a neighbor who keeps cats.
The man who smokes Blue Masters drinks bier.
The man who keeps horses lives next to the Dunhill smoker.
The German smokes Prince.
The Norwegian lives next to the blue house.
The Blend smoker has a neighbor who drinks water.

The question to be answered is: Who keeps fish?

It has been claimed that 98% of people were unable to solve it in Einstein's times. I showed it to some of my friends and heard correct answers in no time. None of us belongs to Mensa club.

Hence, the problem is not in the intellect. The mind does what it is supposed to, and does it as well as ever - just look at all the gadgets we keep developing.

It's the basis of mind's logic that is flawed. The values, the meaning of being a human seem to be amiss.

History knows quite a few highly intelligent pyscho-/sociopaths, doesn't it?

[Michael]

Stupidity is not limited to low IQ. In fact, those with intelligence, in the common sense of that word, demonstrate more stupidity than those without, because they have no excuse. I have often ponded why this is so.

Our world is currently the recipient of so much that comes from intelligent action, and yet so far from the essentials of a meaningful life. We have more clever gadgets, and more clever education, than at any time in known history, and yet we are further from our 'higher selves', as you put it Juhani, than at any time, from my estimation. There is no doubt an inverse relationship at play in this. Just like youth are more connected and more lonely than ever before.

[erik]

We have more clever gadgets, and more clever education, than at any time in known history, and yet we are further from our 'higher selves', as you put it Juhani, than at any time, from my estimation. There is no doubt an inverse relationship at play in this.

Inverse relationship. Very precise again. It brings to my mind famous statements in Bible (Genesis 1 26-27):
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Instead of thinking that we have a potential of creator, instead of believing that there is much to discover within ourselves to fully exploit the potential our physical and non-physical bodies, we have done the opposite. We have reduced the creator to the level of a usual fleshy human being and tried to find happiness through bringing everything down instead of striving higher. It is so comforting and relaxing to say that we have already reached our full potential, that 'this is it' and 'it is as good as it gets'.

And there is no way to show a person hellbent on sitting in a pile of dang that he/she could be so much more.

Yet, DJ never stopped trying. A true master of folly!

[Taimyr]

The reason is that humans haven't grown further from being the slaves of their instincts. "We" are basically same as all other animals, where the survival and reproduction instincts rule. So all this intelligence is in the service of instincts.

[erik]

The reason is that humans haven't grown further from being the slaves of their instincts. "We" are basically same as all other animals, where the survival and reproduction instincts rule. So all this intelligence is in the service of instincts.

Nope. No instinct makes person greedy, stubborn, selfish, stupid to the extent he/she is ready to destroy the surrounding world. It is the parasite, the installation, the "I", the ego - something that says within a person that "I" am the wisest smartass in the world, and "I" don't need anybody's advice on what is right, what is wrong, what to do, and how to proceed.

Instincts are not to blame.

[Nichi]

Apropos this theme, it might be of interest to know that a recent study in the USA discovered that political and religious affiliations filtered out, somewhere around a third or more of US citizens do not want to do anything about Global Warming even if it is true, because they believe doing so is futile. Why? Because the Second Coming is so close there is no point in bothering about the earth's climate situation.

There might be that apocalyptic undertone afoot, but there is also an ecumenical passivity connected with Christian religions, wherein activism is not encouraged. To quote one of the songs I just posted:

Pastor tells the lady it'll be alright
Just pray so you can see the pearly gates so white
The lady prays and prays and prays and prays
and prays and prays and prays and prays...it's everlasting
"There's nothing wrong with praying ?" It's what she's asking
She's asking the Lord to let her cope
so one day she can see the golden ropes
What you pray for God will give
to be able to cope in this world we live
The word "cope" and the word "change"
are directly opposite, not the same
She should have been praying to change her woes
but pastor said "Pray to cope with those"
The government is happy with most baptist churches
coz they don't do a damn thing to try to nurture
brothers and sisters on a revolution
Baptist teaches dying is the only solution
Passiveness causes others to pass us by
I throw my line till I've made my decision
until then, I'm still fishin' 4 religion

~Arrested Development

[Taimyr]

It is precicely instincts that makes a person greedy and selfish. Because greed means that one wants to have more and more because it makes him feel secure. Owning things or money is the same as storing food for the future - feeling secure about future - feeling like their existence will continue. The same thing as animal survival instinct. What makes an animal want to live and not to die.
Look at the animal world, there are always the ones that lead the pact, who are stronger and smarter. It is also the survival instinct, the constant fighting and wanting to have the power. And reproduction instinct to be the best and strongest to carry on the species (of course for humans it has gone a bit out of hands, the constant need for sex, without getting descendants, is a bit weird when you think about it...)

When we are ruled by instincts, then we are simply too blinded to see that we are destroying our surrounding world. I suppose we wouldn't even care because "we only live once" anyway.

Of course there are other beings that are interested of how these things work, it is food for them, but people still have the freedom to take responsiblity of where they are and how they can change themself.

Nope. No instinct makes person greedy, stubborn, selfish, stupid to the extent he/she is ready to destroy the surrounding world. It is the parasite, the installation, the "I", the ego - something that says within a person that "I" am the wisest smartass in the world, and "I" don't need anybody's advice on what is right, what is wrong, what to do, and how to proceed.

Instincts are not to blame.

[erik]

It is precicely instincts that makes a person greedy and selfish. Because greed means that one wants to have more and more because it makes him feel secure. Owning things or money is the same as storing food for the future - feeling secure about future - feeling like their existence will continue. The same thing as animal survival instinct. What makes an animal want to live and not to die.
Look at the animal world, there are always the ones that lead the pact, who are stronger and smarter. It is also the survival instinct, the constant fighting and wanting to have the power. And reproduction instinct to be the best and strongest to carry on the species (of course for humans it has gone a bit out of hands, the constant need for sex, without getting descendants, is a bit weird when you think about it...)

When we are ruled by instincts, then we are simply too blinded to see that we are destroying our surrounding world. I suppose we wouldn't even care because "we only live once" anyway.

Of course there are other beings that are interested of how these things work, it is food for them, but people still have the freedom to take responsiblity of where they are and how they can change themself.

You are missing the point that humans are not ruled by instincts. Humans are ruled by their interpretation of their instincts. If we listened to our instincts we would not do what we are doing.

You say reproduction? Now how do you explain dropping birth rates of population of welfare states? Lots of sex and entertainment - no children. Instinct tells us to have children.

Greed and survival are different things. No animal takes more than it needs. None. Humans live in fear. Fear that they generate themselves. Why do rich people need more and more? Why do only so few feel comfortable at where they are? Moreover, what you call our survival instinct is destroying our planet. It is not an instinct. Instinct tells us that we are destroying our planet and that we should stop and change our ways.

It is all social conditioning and ego. "I" at its worst. It likes to blame everything else, the world for its doings. It is always the world that is wrong, never the person who does things.