Author Topic: US Elections 2008  (Read 1925 times)

nichi

  • Guest
Re: HOORAY
« Reply #180 on: November 06, 2008, 05:34:39 PM »
Overall, I see very little purpose in voting these days.  The elctions here aren't really decided by "the people", but by the lobbyists and the electoral college, and the candidates with the most $$$ to spend on their campaigns.  Voting is just a formality, giving us the illusion that we have "power," when all evidence points sharply in the other direction.

I agreed completely with this, until  this past Tuesday.
The US has a lot of history and good reason to be skeptical about the voting process -- in fact, about the whole campaign process.  For me it starts with Watergate and ends with the stolen election/Florida fiasco of 2000.  There's corruption in the voting technology. And that electoral college thing has always mystified me.

However, with good campaign-planning-for-districts and an overwhelming voter turnout, even the electoral college can't get away with too much funny business. I think we saw the evidence of that on Tuesday. I can't remember the figure I read now, but the comparative turnout this last time was in the millions -- millions more voted this last time than ever have in the 20th century.  Some who voted, voted for the first time in their lives. That's impressive. And consequently, this most improbable candidate won. So, if enough people believe that voting counts for something and actually turn out to vote ... voting will count for something.  About this outcome, I was pleasantly surprised.

Having said all that, though, I'm completely stunned by the results in California. I can hardly believe it: California is about the most liberal of the 50 states. To boot, while I was there this summer, gay marriage was voted in! So how could there be this turnaround? It's a grave day.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2008, 08:06:38 PM by nichi »

Offline daphne

  • Rishi
  • ******
  • Posts: 1560
Re: HOORAY
« Reply #181 on: November 06, 2008, 08:04:09 PM »

Having said that, though, I'm completely stunned by the results in California. I can hardly believe it: California is about the most liberal of the 50 states. To boot, while I was there this summer, gay marriage was voted in! So how could there be this turnaround? It's a grave day.


Because not all those who vote for equality accept that equality for all. Even "liberalism" is selective.
Perhaps now that there has been some progress on the race issue, the gender et al issue may have its turn too.

Same thing happens here in South Africa. Everyone wants equality, but as long as it is their definition of equality, and on their terms.
Really all about fear... same-sex marriage is unChristian, unMoslem and unJewish... people are still rather religious.. after all.. God is on their side. (sigh.. yeah.. being rather facetious here... though.. such is the power of belief)
"The compulsion to possess and hold on to things is not unique. Everyone who wants to follow the warrior's path has to rid himself of this fixation in order not to focus our dreaming body on the weak face of the second attention." - The Eagle's Gift

nichi

  • Guest
Re: US Elections 2008
« Reply #182 on: November 06, 2008, 08:15:33 PM »
The importance of aspects like "belief", "hope", "pessimism", "optimism", and the like -- whatever floats yer boat there -- is that those aspects spur Action. In other words, a would-be voter believes, for instance, that a vote makes a difference: therefore, s/he votes. Likewise, a would-be voter believes that a vote makes no difference at all: therefore, s/he doesn't vote.  (There are other reasons to vote-or-not-vote: this is just a for-instance.)

Concomitantly, one may or may not subscribe to or value "hope". However, the act of "hoping" brought millions more out to the voting booths. (That, and some reportedly just wanted to be part of the history, which in and of itself was an act of optimism.) "Hope" was central to Obama's platform. Clever man.

So what I'm saying here is that whether or not one subscribes to the power of hope in one's own path, one can't deny that it is a powerful catalyst for action out there in the mainstream, as disappointingly predictable as that might be to us 'sophisticated', duly-jaded or ostensibly-"detached" warrior types.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2008, 01:23:59 AM by nichi »

nichi

  • Guest
Re: HOORAY
« Reply #183 on: November 06, 2008, 08:17:53 PM »
Because not all those who vote for equality accept that equality for all. Even "liberalism" is selective.
Perhaps now that there has been some progress on the race issue, the gender et al issue may have its turn too.

Same thing happens here in South Africa. Everyone wants equality, but as long as it is their definition of equality, and on their terms.
Really all about fear... same-sex marriage is unChristian, unMoslem and unJewish... people are still rather religious.. after all.. God is on their side. (sigh.. yeah.. being rather facetious here... though.. such is the power of belief)

You're no doubt right, Daph! The thing I was most ponderous about was that it was voted "in" just months earlier.  Some faction(s) went to a lot of trouble to get it kicked out! 

nichi

  • Guest
Re: US Elections 2008
« Reply #184 on: November 06, 2008, 08:48:09 PM »
The importance of aspects like "belief", "hope", "pessimism", "optimism", and the like -- whatever floats yer boat there -- is that those aspects spurn Action. In other words, a would-be voter believes, for instance, that a vote makes a difference: therefore, s/he votes. Likewise, a would-be voter believes that a vote makes no difference at all: therefore, s/he doesn't vote.  (There are other reasons to vote-or-not-vote: this is just a for-instance.)

Concomitantly, one may or may not subscribe to or value "hope". However, the act of "hoping" brought millions more out to the voting booths. (That, and some reportedly just wanted to be part of the history, which in and of itself was an act of optimism.) "Hope" was central to Obama's platform. Clever man.

So what I'm saying here is that whether or not one subscribes to the power of hope in one's own path, one can't deny that it is a powerful catalyst for action out there in the mainstream, as disappointingly predictable as that might be to us 'sophisticated', duly-jaded or ostensibly-"detached" warrior types.

Part of me is definitely "digging" it. It reminds me of the late 60's/early 70's, when many of us were trying to "give peace a chance". We subversives!

Of course, that ended badly, and my personal "aha" moment there was, 3 assassinations later, the Kent State shootings, the heels of which were followed quickly by Watergate. The messages were "We'll kill you if you keep it up," and "You can count on absolutely nothing - nothing is sacred, and democracy is a lie."

I know I'm not alone in the subsequent apprehension of the zeitgeist of discouragement.

So am I happy that many stepped into the dream of democracy and peace again? Yes.
Will it last? I fear not -- no, it won't last, but likewise, I'm keeping my projections and disappointment out of it. You just never know what can happen.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2008, 11:52:21 PM by nichi »

Offline Jennifer-

  • Rishi
  • ******
  • Posts: 7794
  • Let us dance of freedom~
Re: US Elections 2008
« Reply #185 on: November 06, 2008, 09:59:39 PM »
My thoughts at the moment (which are always given to the winds of change) written for another forum and copied here in light of sharing with this thread and lack of time/interest to rewrite.. lol ;)

Quote
I am pleased to say that the new president of the United States is Barack Obama! Its an interesting and exciting time to be a US citizen, to witness the acceptance and growth as a unit toward peace and change is beautiful. 

Im proud in a humble way to see a glimmer of maturity within a very young culture.. to set aside social conditions and honour an African American man as well as a woman to run in this election for white house is amazing.

I turned the local/national news on yesterday as I went about my house chores.. and saw mass groups of American people standing together and smiling.. yes.. smiling! It matters not the reason.. the smiles, the heart.. the unity.. that matters.

My son is 15 years old, which gives me close up view of the american youth. May they blossem from the waters of the adversities to come. May they have eyes to see and feel the earth calling beneith their heavy footsteps and the heart to follow what they find is truth.

Peace be with you, Jennifer

Quote
Im getting a feeling of fear as well.. fear that he cant make a change for the better.. what I find interesting is what people consider better and the passing of a torch they themselves should carry.

In my humble opinion which is very small and very much just a slight passing of wind through the trees, things arnt going to just get better.. what has been done is done and the results of that will come to front as all things do..  say things do dive into the depths of what is considered hell on earth to most Americans, perhaps this is a turning of the universal wheel where all things must die to be reborn anew.

No man alone can stop that wheel from turning from the momentum of the past rolling heavy on the earth.. but.. as a leader he can keep the hearts alive and shift the eyes to a new horizon giving them a land to fly towards and a reason to strengthen their will toward healing.

Obama has the shine to lift the hearts.. we saw that in millions of people yesterday. If shit hits the fan as my mother would say.. I think the United States will/could embrace this stance.. and that is what will unite the people to stand through it.

Awareness comes on the wings of heart.. when people take a stance of survival, when they embrace and grab onto the strings of life and take action.. all things are possible. This is experienced alone on a individual level and united as a whole when discovered that in our own aloneness we are infact the same as everthing thing else.


I agree with you XXX, its a historic change.

Change is a step into the unknown..

It takes some guts to do that..

I like it.

:) Jennifer

What Im saying is.. a change has already happened. The US elected both a African American and a Woman into the standings for Whitehouse!

My grandfather would roll in his grave if such was possible.. lol

Ive seen this acceptance in my own family when my step sister married an African a few years ago. My father out of ignorance (he has never even known an African) grew up with a fear or dislike of other race..due to social conditioning. Now I see him embrace his beautiful being from Africa right in his living room during holidays!

Its wonderful.

Its a small step I know.. but I see it as a step in a good direction so I honor it for what it is..

Unless people are forced to seek within due to economic crisis or other I dont see other changes the people think will magicaly appear due to a new president... man, woman, black, green, purple or orange.

Without constant complete silence meditation - samadi - we lose ourselves in the game.  MM

tangerine dream

  • Guest
Re: US Elections 2008
« Reply #186 on: November 06, 2008, 10:03:53 PM »
My thoughts at the moment (which are always given to the winds of change) written for another forum and copied here in light of sharing with this thread and lack of time/interest to rewrite.. lol ;)

What Im saying is.. a change has already happened. The US elected both a African American and a Woman into the standings for Whitehouse!

My grandfather would roll in his grave if such was possible.. lol

Ive seen this acceptance in my own family when my step sister married an African a few years ago. My father out of ignorance (he has never even known an African) grew up with a fear or dislike of other race..due to social conditioning. Now I see him embrace his beautiful being from Africa right in his living room during holidays!

Its wonderful.

Its a small step I know.. but I see it as a step in a good direction so I honor it for what it is..

Unless people are forced to seek within due to economic crisis or other I dont see other changes the people think will magicaly appear due to a new president... man, woman, black, green, purple or orange.



You said it sister! :-*

Offline Jennifer-

  • Rishi
  • ******
  • Posts: 7794
  • Let us dance of freedom~
Re: US Elections 2008
« Reply #187 on: November 06, 2008, 10:12:00 PM »
Quote
Any "change" has to come at the level of spirit - and, sadly, most of the people I encounter these days aren't much interested in spirit.  They want their MTV, their fast food wrapped in six layers of packaging, and their comforting little belief systems that come through the rhetoric of their fear-based religion.  Not much room for spirit in any of that.

I agree Della, and this change isnt going to come easy if it does.. its going to come under the footsteps of a giant that stomps out all the indulging and ignorance.. it could come as the economic world crashes and people are forced into survival mode.. or many other forms of crisis.

Where I do slip on the rose colored glasses and delight in just a bit of hope is that a small number of people will set aside their hate and be filled with love instead.. with love all things are possible.. just maybe a few of them will take a good look within...

Which could indeed create a healthier parental stance and in the future.. the children of today.. could.. could... see things much differently.
Without constant complete silence meditation - samadi - we lose ourselves in the game.  MM

tangerine dream

  • Guest
Re: US Elections 2008
« Reply #188 on: November 06, 2008, 10:16:49 PM »
I agree Della, and this change isnt going to come easy if it does.. its going to come under the footsteps of a giant that stomps out all the indulging and ignorance.. it could come as the economic world crashes and people are forced into survival mode.. or many other forms of crisis.

Where I do slip on the rose colored glasses and delight in just a bit of hope is that a small number of people will set aside their hate and be filled with love instead.. with love all things are possible.. just maybe a few of them will take a good look within...

Which could indeed create a healthier parental stance and in the future.. the children of today.. could.. could... see things much differently.


Jen,
You are speaking my mind this morning.  Thank you!

Love you
 :-*

Offline Jennifer-

  • Rishi
  • ******
  • Posts: 7794
  • Let us dance of freedom~
Re: US Elections 2008
« Reply #189 on: November 06, 2008, 10:22:49 PM »
Quote
Vicki-So what I'm saying here is that whether or not one subscribes to the power of hope in one's own path, one can't deny that it is a powerful catalyst for action out there in the mainstream

Mainstream needs a little bit of hope imo.. without it.. we can clearly see the 'flower it' attitude of many people.. with a little bit of hope.. perhaps if they can see they can do just a little bit in their own life it makes a huge difference.

Even if its accepting the black man next door and sharing a smile.. it changes..

Perception.
Without constant complete silence meditation - samadi - we lose ourselves in the game.  MM

Offline Jennifer-

  • Rishi
  • ******
  • Posts: 7794
  • Let us dance of freedom~
Re: US Elections 2008
« Reply #190 on: November 06, 2008, 10:23:40 PM »
Jen,
You are speaking my mind this morning.  Thank you!

Love you
 :-*

Namaste' Lori Ann

Love you!  :-*
Without constant complete silence meditation - samadi - we lose ourselves in the game.  MM

Offline Michael

  • Administrator
  • Rishi
  • ******
  • Posts: 18284
    • Michael's Music Page
Re: US Elections 2008
« Reply #191 on: November 06, 2008, 10:51:29 PM »
good to see you guys trying to make sense of this.

nichi

  • Guest
Re: US Elections 2008
« Reply #192 on: November 06, 2008, 11:43:31 PM »
Mainstream needs a little bit of hope imo.. without it.. we can clearly see the 'flower it' attitude of many people.. with a little bit of hope.. perhaps if they can see they can do just a little bit in their own life it makes a huge difference.

Even if its accepting the black man next door and sharing a smile.. it changes..

Perception.

Yes, yes! Every little scrap of good will counts!

Offline Quantum Shaman

  • Pir
  • ****
  • Posts: 510
  • Destruction of faith is the beginning of evolution
    • Quantum Shaman
Re: US Elections 2008
« Reply #193 on: November 07, 2008, 03:17:02 AM »
Yes, yes! Every little scrap of good will counts!

Hi, Vicki... Jen... and everyone else in this thread...

Vicki, I'm just attaching this to your post because it's the most succinct.  "Every little scrap of good will counts."  That seems to be the sentiment of many in this thread, however I would like to ask a simple question:  How?

Don't get me wrong.  I don't necessarily disagree.  I'm just trying to understand how hope or good will is going to change anything on a national or global level.  Seriously.  What is the process by which that change may occur?  We talk about love and good will, but even if you, me, Jen, Lori and the rest of us Somans were to go out and "spread the joy", I'm not really sure how I see that it is going to matter except to those of us who are do-ing it.  We cannot save the world. We can only effect change within ourselves.  And while I see that those of us here are do-ing that, it is clear that "the world" at large isn't much interested.  Just what is.

And that brings me to a point that's been kicked around over at TSW on and off for years.  Basically, it has really started to appear to me that there are at least two different species of humans on the planet (probably more, but for the sake of argument, let's jut talk about two).  There are "the humans" and there are "the seekers" (sorry, don't have a better word for it).  They look the same externally, but their inner mechanisms function on extremely different frequencies - so they are largely unable to understand one another.  Ever tried talking to a fundy preacher, for example?  NOT on the same frequency.  Not even in the same world.  Ever tried talking to a born-again bliss-ninnie?  Same problem - whether perceiving himself to be saved by Jesus or enlightened by virtue of having become a vegetarian, still not in the same world.

So... my point here is that I think we are attempting to communicate with a species that may not be CAPABLE of communicating.  It's not just that our "language" is different.  The concepts themselves are so at opposite ends of the spectrum that what I am calling a tree, the humans are calling a missile, and vice versa.  Communication break-down.  No common language.

So we talk about love and hope (both of which I am quite fond of), but at what level of reality can we really APPLY that?  And, to be perfectly Toltec about it - is it even our "problem" beyond a certain point?  I didn't see don Juan out trying to save the planet by spreading good cheer.  *LOL*  Not that he would have anything against it, but he focused his energies on those he COULD help - other warriors, people who were making at least some effort toward their own evolution.

So, again forgive me if I'm appearing "negative," but I'm trying to understand HOW hope and love are really going to make any difference, except within OURSELVES.  Absolutely - "Love is the reason" - no argument, total agreeement.  But trying to communicate "love" to a species that speaks in terms of war and bigotry and hate-mongering and fear-mongering... er... isn't that rather like trying to teach a pig to sing?  After awhile, it wastes YOUR time and annoys the pig.  So... what is really gained?

Now, with that said, I'm not a nihilist.  But I DO think there comes a time when we need to focus on what we CAN do rather than what we WISH were true.  I'm old enough to have lived through the 60s - that turbulent era of peace, love, dope, war, etc.  We marched for peace and wore flowers in our hair and ate a lot of tofu, but ultimately the "world" still went to hell around us.  Ugly truth.  So - my question is simply this:  what is an EFFICIENT use of energy in a world where we are essentially not the "dominat" species?  Sorry to be brutal here, but do we try to "save the apes" or do we focus our energy on evolution?

Ugly questions.  Very ugly.  Not my intent to rain on anyone's parade, but I think these are questions that must be asked if we are going to be honest with ourselves.  It's perfectly reasonable and rational to have that hope and love within ourselves, and even spread it around to others - but my experience has shown that if we think it's going to make a difference in "the world", we are sadly mistaken. 

What it all boils down to? I have come to see "hope" and "love" as positions of the assemblage point - very positive and potentially powerful.  But I also clearly *see* that love and hope alone are not going to be enough, simply because they can potentially blind us to the need for action - the responsibility of the Self in the equation of evolution.  So, if love and hope are positions of the assemblage point (mindsets), what is the best possible use of that energy in our day to day lives?  Are we trying to "save the world", or do we "save the world" by saving ourselves?

I keep going back to the analogy of the plane.  If the oxygen masks drop, your FIRST responsibility is to yourself.  If you're being altruistic and trying to put everyone else's mask on for them, you run the risk of passing out and then you're useless to all, including yourself.

So, ultimately, my caution here is not to get too caught up in the IDEAS of "love" or "hope".  They're great motivators - but being a stalker, I am compelled to ask the next question:  how does that translate to ACTION in the real world?  I honestly don't think it's as simple as saying "We have to set a good example." That's just too easy, and too much of an abdication of responsibility. 

Just some rambling thoughts which probably won't set well with some.  Apologies for the intrusion, but at the same time, I feel it is a necessary question if we are committed to the path with heart. 
"You have to be immortal before you will know how to become immortal."
Quantum Shaman  | Quantum Shaman on Facebook

nichi

  • Guest
Re: US Elections 2008
« Reply #194 on: November 07, 2008, 03:57:56 AM »
Della, I'll repeat --- where I'm currently at is finding a balance between rose-colored glasses and constant nihilism, viewing both stances askance.
I've pretty much addressed my approach to "hope" as well. I haven't really gone on a "love" spiel, so not sure how that is lumped in for ya.

So our mileages vary on this matter, apparently --- no biggie!

 

SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk