Author Topic: US Elections 2008  (Read 1914 times)

Offline Quantum Shaman

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Re: US Elections 2008
« Reply #195 on: November 07, 2008, 04:22:23 AM »
Della, I'll repeat --- where I'm currently at is finding a balance between rose-colored glasses and constant nihilism, viewing both stances askance.
I've pretty much addressed my approach to "hope" as well. I haven't really gone on a "love" spiel, so not sure how that is lumped in for ya.

So our mileages vary on this matter, apparently --- no biggie!

Like I said at the beginning of my post, I only appended it to your post 'cuz yours was the most succinct.   The terms "love" and "hope" were both used in the thread, so none of it was intended "personally" toward you.  :)

As for mileage... I'm just asking the question.  How do we transform our "hope" into action?  The question isn't meant to offend.
"You have to be immortal before you will know how to become immortal."
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nichi

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Re: US Elections 2008
« Reply #196 on: November 07, 2008, 05:05:33 AM »
You know, I hate talking politics -- and I rarely do. It's extremely rare that I have anything positive to say about it. This might be a once-in-a lifetime event for me, since JFK, anyway --- but then I was a child and it doesn't really count.
 
The day my participation in this thread began came from a weariness I had of all the fear-mongering that goes on in this forum at times.  That was my point to begin with --- my question was, 'What now?' The world sucks, it's going to hell in a handbasket -- now what? Obviously, we attend to our own lives and paths, our own development of our awareness, but when the fear-mongering material keeps coming up again and again and again, then we're off the subject of our respective paths and awareness anyway.

So you ask about "hope". I'll just give you what I already have said about it:

Quote
The importance of aspects like "belief", "hope", "pessimism", "optimism", and the like -- whatever floats yer boat there -- is that those aspects spurn Action. In other words, a would-be voter believes, for instance, that a vote makes a difference: therefore, s/he votes. Likewise, a would-be voter believes that a vote makes no difference at all: therefore, s/he doesn't vote.  (There are other reasons to vote-or-not-vote: this is just a for-instance.)

Concomitantly, one may or may not subscribe to or value "hope". However, the act of "hoping" brought millions more out to the voting booths. (That, and some reportedly just wanted to be part of the history, which in and of itself was an act of optimism.) "Hope" was central to Obama's platform. Clever man.

So what I'm saying here is that whether or not one subscribes to the power of hope in one's own path, one can't deny that it is a powerful catalyst for action out there in the mainstream, as disappointingly predictable as that might be to us 'sophisticated', duly-jaded or ostensibly-"detached" warrior types.


Part of me is definitely "digging" it. It reminds me of the late 60's/early 70's, when many of us were trying to "give peace a chance". We subversives!

Of course, that ended badly, and my personal "aha" moment there was, 3 assassinations later, the Kent State shootings, the heels of which were followed quickly by Watergate. The messages were "We'll kill you if you keep it up," and "You can count on absolutely nothing - nothing is sacred, and democracy is a lie."

I know I'm not alone in the subsequent apprehension of the zeitgeist of discouragement.

So am I happy that many stepped into the dream of democracy and peace again? Yes.
Will it last? I fear not -- no, it won't last, but likewise, I'm keeping my projections and disappointment out of it. You just never know what can happen.

Did I advocate its use for us "warriors"? No -- if I seemed to, I didn't make myself clear.  My point was that it was used in the mainstream. It was used to win the election, and it was used to activate voters into action. I'm pleased about that outcome -- mostly because of Sarah Palin. And also pleased for the US that it elected an African-American.  I've described all of that as well.

I don't know how to answer your question, how should we use "hope"? Because I didn't say that to start with.

I look back on my life, and I do see that there have been moments of it, for sure, in my own walk. Those moments lent courage to keep on in some dark times. But they were fleeting moments. I did not intend to sit here and tell anyone that they should use it.

That's the best I can do in clarifying, D.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2008, 05:22:25 AM by nichi »

Jahn

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Re: US Elections 2008
« Reply #197 on: November 07, 2008, 05:06:36 AM »
what do I click on when I get to that page - it's all in gobbledygook.

You do not need to click on anything M, just sit back and let the evening go, The video Tv program starts automatic but you have to wait 40 sec. until the interviews in English start. And as I wrote; to get Full screen mode you just hit the "Fullskärm" button to the right below the video.

Right On with K-G Bergström, three Interviews before the US election, oct. 2008
« Last Edit: November 07, 2008, 05:09:42 AM by Jamir »

Jahn

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Re: US Elections 2008
« Reply #198 on: November 07, 2008, 05:28:12 AM »
You know, I hate talking politics -- and I rarely do.

It is very spiritual to make money and talk politics. Some might think the opposite so that will be the truth for them.

Dear US is now under the gallow and of the two candidates that was available a majority, both in the US and abroad, thought that Obama was the best choice to be the captain on the sinking ship. Faith move mountains, so some billion people across the world now put some true faith in Obamas presidency. And many millions will add him to the evening prayer.

We got the best outcome in the election,  but we do not expect miracles. He will not be able to deliver all, not even half of what he has talked about but each evening when I close my eyes I will feel confident that the US has a president that is as close to be impeccable as he can be. That is what counts on a energy level. Nes't pas?

   ~.~
                       ~.~

« Last Edit: November 07, 2008, 06:26:58 AM by Jamir »

Jahn

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Re: US Elections 2008
« Reply #199 on: November 07, 2008, 06:32:25 AM »

So, ultimately, my caution here is not to get too caught up in the IDEAS of "love" or "hope".  They're great motivators - but being a stalker, I am compelled to ask the next question:  how does that translate to ACTION in the real world? 

Action yes, very much required. A man younger than me may do more action than a man significant older thanme. How about to choose Colin Powell to minister of defence? Kerry as a minister of foreign affairs? And why not Al Gore as a minister of climate change. There is of course no such minister but now we are talking about "change". Take Al Gore to a position where he can make a difference. So obama may build a team, a team that can work in the "right" direction on its own. Then it is no longer a one man show, or a one man agenda as the Bush administration, but a teamworking for improvement of the state affairs.

To invite the opponents to unconditional discussions, to build up a "team" that function with self responsibility, to make resolutions for the future that was agreed by all leading parties, that is a few leading *Stars* that made success in Sweden and created change from deficit to abundance.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2008, 06:44:06 AM by Jamir »

Offline Jennifer-

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Re: US Elections 2008
« Reply #200 on: November 07, 2008, 07:28:17 AM »
Hi, Vicki... Jen... and everyone else in this thread...

Vicki, I'm just attaching this to your post because it's the most succinct.  "Every little scrap of good will counts."  That seems to be the sentiment of many in this thread, however I would like to ask a simple question:  How?

Don't get me wrong.  I don't necessarily disagree.  I'm just trying to understand how hope or good will is going to change anything on a national or global level.  Seriously.  What is the process by which that change may occur?  We talk about love and good will, but even if you, me, Jen, Lori and the rest of us Somans were to go out and "spread the joy", I'm not really sure how I see that it is going to matter except to those of us who are do-ing it.  We cannot save the world. We can only effect change within ourselves.  And while I see that those of us here are do-ing that, it is clear that "the world" at large isn't much interested.  Just what is.

And that brings me to a point that's been kicked around over at TSW on and off for years.  Basically, it has really started to appear to me that there are at least two different species of humans on the planet (probably more, but for the sake of argument, let's jut talk about two).  There are "the humans" and there are "the seekers" (sorry, don't have a better word for it).  They look the same externally, but their inner mechanisms function on extremely different frequencies - so they are largely unable to understand one another.  Ever tried talking to a fundy preacher, for example?  NOT on the same frequency.  Not even in the same world.  Ever tried talking to a born-again bliss-ninnie?  Same problem - whether perceiving himself to be saved by Jesus or enlightened by virtue of having become a vegetarian, still not in the same world.

So... my point here is that I think we are attempting to communicate with a species that may not be CAPABLE of communicating.  It's not just that our "language" is different.  The concepts themselves are so at opposite ends of the spectrum that what I am calling a tree, the humans are calling a missile, and vice versa.  Communication break-down.  No common language.

So we talk about love and hope (both of which I am quite fond of), but at what level of reality can we really APPLY that?  And, to be perfectly Toltec about it - is it even our "problem" beyond a certain point?  I didn't see don Juan out trying to save the planet by spreading good cheer.  *LOL*  Not that he would have anything against it, but he focused his energies on those he COULD help - other warriors, people who were making at least some effort toward their own evolution.

So, again forgive me if I'm appearing "negative," but I'm trying to understand HOW hope and love are really going to make any difference, except within OURSELVES.  Absolutely - "Love is the reason" - no argument, total agreeement.  But trying to communicate "love" to a species that speaks in terms of war and bigotry and hate-mongering and fear-mongering... er... isn't that rather like trying to teach a pig to sing?  After awhile, it wastes YOUR time and annoys the pig.  So... what is really gained?

Now, with that said, I'm not a nihilist.  But I DO think there comes a time when we need to focus on what we CAN do rather than what we WISH were true.  I'm old enough to have lived through the 60s - that turbulent era of peace, love, dope, war, etc.  We marched for peace and wore flowers in our hair and ate a lot of tofu, but ultimately the "world" still went to hell around us.  Ugly truth.  So - my question is simply this:  what is an EFFICIENT use of energy in a world where we are essentially not the "dominat" species?  Sorry to be brutal here, but do we try to "save the apes" or do we focus our energy on evolution?

Ugly questions.  Very ugly.  Not my intent to rain on anyone's parade, but I think these are questions that must be asked if we are going to be honest with ourselves.  It's perfectly reasonable and rational to have that hope and love within ourselves, and even spread it around to others - but my experience has shown that if we think it's going to make a difference in "the world", we are sadly mistaken. 

What it all boils down to? I have come to see "hope" and "love" as positions of the assemblage point - very positive and potentially powerful.  But I also clearly *see* that love and hope alone are not going to be enough, simply because they can potentially blind us to the need for action - the responsibility of the Self in the equation of evolution.  So, if love and hope are positions of the assemblage point (mindsets), what is the best possible use of that energy in our day to day lives?  Are we trying to "save the world", or do we "save the world" by saving ourselves?

I keep going back to the analogy of the plane.  If the oxygen masks drop, your FIRST responsibility is to yourself.  If you're being altruistic and trying to put everyone else's mask on for them, you run the risk of passing out and then you're useless to all, including yourself.

So, ultimately, my caution here is not to get too caught up in the IDEAS of "love" or "hope".  They're great motivators - but being a stalker, I am compelled to ask the next question:  how does that translate to ACTION in the real world?  I honestly don't think it's as simple as saying "We have to set a good example." That's just too easy, and too much of an abdication of responsibility. 

Just some rambling thoughts which probably won't set well with some.  Apologies for the intrusion, but at the same time, I feel it is a necessary question if we are committed to the path with heart. 

Im pleased youve dove in Della, its always a pleasure to have you within a thread of any kind.

Quote
I'm just trying to understand how hope or good will is going to change anything on a national or global level.


I agree with what youve written, and I understand what you are saying as I have from experience felt as if Im a stranger in a way stranger land.. I have often in social situation found myself either wanting to fall asleep or bash my head off the wall... but.. from this Ive learned to accept that they are on a different path then what I choose to live and explore that with them.. of course slipping in a tad of my forien logic here and there.

What I often notice is struggle.. and how dearly they love to uphold and admire that.. if its not something that happened today.. ya know what happened 20 years ago! They dont know any better ( fwiw.. I really dislike sepperating myself and using 'they' but for the sake of sharing) it brings passion and energy to them in a strange way... oddly they rather enjoy being misrible and dont even realize it!

Lately what Ive been hearing is how much everything costs.. how are we going to heat our house this winter, if gas prices dont go down Im not going to be able to feed my family.. etc.

Im getting off track here.. Hope and Love.

Well the way I see it.. is many have just simply lost hope.. there is nothing good going for them.. so it drains the life right out of them.. people dont even notice a beautiful day any more.. or a sunset.. or the precious first snow fall as being any thing more then.. more 'work' Its like the people are all depressed and sickly....tired...lost.

My heart says with a bit of hope they may pull their heads out of their ass and notice what they DO have.. little by little they get feeling better.. huh..

I just left a very dear friend of mine who was paralized in an accident 2 years ago.. he has been struggling in healing ever since.

You know what pulls him out of his depression.. hope and love.

I see it as a side issue for a warrior, perhaps falling into the line of controlled folly.. to be concerned with the world and peace.. and yes, the people. Im not saying for all warriors.. Im saying for me at the time being. (Tomorrow I may not give a shit)

When my friend's daughter comes to see him tonight.. he's going to feel good.. because I reminded him of something.. life, love. She is going to feel good because her father does.. she's going to go home and share that with her mother.. ripples.

Its not distracting or frustrating to my path.. Its not my path.. its what I choose to do at times. Hell for that matter who is this "I" its doubtful anyone knows.

Hope and Love..

If one part of the world finds acceptance for one another, they start really understanding what love is. If one part of the world finds love.. again.. ripples.

The understanding of love, could even (and this is where Im still hopeful!) open their eyes to the earth and what we've done to her.. then the real world wide stuff starts rolling.

Eh.. Im young, little with experience as well. :)

Bit of a ramble...

Tis good to see you!










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Offline daphne

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Re: US Elections 2008
« Reply #201 on: November 07, 2008, 07:47:18 AM »

My heart says with a bit of hope they may pull their heads out of their ass and notice what they DO have.. little by little they get feeling better.. huh..


I like that!   :)

In my experience, I have also found that "mainstream", a little 'hope' does do wonders. There seems to be a fine line there.. just enough 'hope' to see the possibilities in one's own actions and being able to actualize that. It is just a first step, which can gather individual momentum, but like anything else, the individual needs to actualize it themself. Too much hope - especially when invested in another, and people then do not act, as if waiting for someone else to actualize their hope for them.  I just hope (lol - there's that hope again!) that the level of hope seen in these elections does not end with waiting for Obama to "make it all better" and people do realize that hope also needs momentum from themselves.

I must admit though that I am still stumped with the results of the same-sex marriage ban. It seems that the same people that voted for change sort of stopped short in their thinking. Without being too 'negative'.. it makes me wonder what exactly their 'hope' for change meant. It's like giving with the one hand, and then taking it back with the other.
"The compulsion to possess and hold on to things is not unique. Everyone who wants to follow the warrior's path has to rid himself of this fixation in order not to focus our dreaming body on the weak face of the second attention." - The Eagle's Gift

tangerine dream

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Re: US Elections 2008
« Reply #202 on: November 07, 2008, 07:58:35 AM »
Like I said at the beginning of my post, I only appended it to your post 'cuz yours was the most succinct.   The terms "love" and "hope" were both used in the thread, so none of it was intended "personally" toward you.  :)

As for mileage... I'm just asking the question.  How do we transform our "hope" into action?  The question isn't meant to offend.

Some factors that definitely come into play here are also personal power and intent.
You can add hope and love to a cherry pie and get a great result.   

And you can add hope and love and some personal power and intent, to the object of your focus, well that's something altogether different (and great).



I see hope like a spark....
Without any kindling or firewood, a spark is nice, but doesn't do much of anything, but look kinda neat for  a little while.   With the right kind of kindling and wood, though a spark can create one helluva fire!




I just left a very dear friend of mine who was paralized in an accident 2 years ago.. he has been struggling in healing ever since.

You know what pulls him out of his depression.. hope and love.

I see it as a side issue for a warrior, perhaps falling into the line of controlled folly.. to be concerned with the world and peace.. and yes, the people. Im not saying for all warriors.. Im saying for me at the time being. (Tomorrow I may not give a shit)

When my friend's daughter comes to see him tonight.. he's going to feel good.. because I reminded him of something.. life, love. She is going to feel good because her father does.. she's going to go home and share that with her mother.. ripples.

Its not distracting or frustrating to my path.. Its not my path.. its what I choose to do at times. Hell for that matter who is this "I" its doubtful anyone knows.

Hope and Love..

If one part of the world finds acceptance for one another, they start really understanding what love is. If one part of the world finds love.. again.. ripples.

The understanding of love, could even (and this is where Im still hopeful!) open their eyes to the earth and what we've done to her.. then the real world wide stuff starts rolling.


 :-*
« Last Edit: November 07, 2008, 08:20:25 AM by dust »

Jahn

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Nelson Mandela comment
« Reply #203 on: November 07, 2008, 08:20:17 AM »
South Africa's previous president 90-year old Nelson Mandela, announced that he add to Barack Obama the congratulations from the people in your land and from the whole world that you have been elected to the next president of the United States.

"Your victory has shown that no pupil anywhere in the world can't dream about to make this world to a better place" in a letter where Mandela perhaps refer to himself as "we."
"We have noted, and we applause, your engagement for peace- and security work all across the world. We are also convinced that during your presidency you will take on the task to address poverty and the curse of illness in the across the world." (My translation).
 

"Er seger har visat att ingen människa någonstans i världen inte ska våga drömma om att vilja göra världen till en bättre plats", fortsätter Nelson Mandela i ett brev där legenden Mandela hänvisar till sig själv i vi-form.
"Vi har noterat, och vi applåderar, ert engagemang för freds- och säkerhetsarbetet runt om i världen. Vi är också övertygade om att ni under er presidenttid tar er an uppgiften att bekämpa fattigdomens och sjukdomens gissel världen över".

« Last Edit: November 08, 2008, 05:17:03 AM by Jamir »

nichi

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Re: US Elections 2008
« Reply #204 on: November 07, 2008, 08:27:56 AM »
That's very cool, Jamir!

Offline TIOTIT

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Re: US Elections 2008
« Reply #205 on: November 07, 2008, 10:02:44 AM »
Hi all who read this
I was inspired by Quantum Shamans offering a few post back to contribute to
this thread.Quite often I prepare something to post and by the time I have
finished I once again realize it's just my limited perspective on whatever the
subject may be....QS said "there are at least two different species of humans on
the planet (probably more, but for the sake of argument, let's jut talk about two)"
I concure,1.Those who Know...2. Those who don't.....like all here I have invested
much time in acquiring information on topics and practices that catch my attention
one area which I have spent some time investigating is the way in which our
societies are created,controlled and maintained...So I will offer some info on a
man called Edward Louis Bernays who lived to be 103 was a nephew of
Sigmund Freud and was one of the clever men who helped shape consumer
culture and politics in the 20th century.When this guy threw a party it was a who's
who of the ruling class elite Presidents,Generals,Bankers they were all there....
This guy got women to smoke with a propaganda campaign equating freedom
and womens rights symbolized with cigarettes calling them "Torches For Liberty"
the rest is history....it's an ongoing industry that's all about making you think
the choices you make are your own....it's a vast topic so I'll keep short...some
info below on Bernays.




EDWARD L. BERNAYS   1928
Edward Louis Bernays (November 22, 1891 – March 9, 1995) is considered one
of the fathers of the field of public relations along with Ivy Lee. Combining the
ideas of Gustave Le Bon and Wilfred Trotter on crowd psychology with the
psychoanalytical ideas of his uncle, Sigmund Freud, Bernays was one of the first
to attempt to manipulate public opinion using the psychology of the
subconscious.
Tye writes that "Bernays' papers . . . provide illuminating and sometimes
disturbing background on some of the most interesting episodes of
twentieth-century history, from the way American tobacco tycoons made it
socially acceptable for women to smoke to the way other titans of industry
persuaded us to pave over our landscape and switch to beer as the 'beverage of
moderation.' The companies involved aren't likely to release their records of
those campaigns, assuming they still exist. But Bernays saved every scrap of
paper he sent out or took in. . . . In so doing, he let us see just how policies were
made and how, in many cases, they were founded on deception."
He felt this manipulation was necessary in society, which he regarded as
irrational and dangerous as a result of the 'herd instinct' that Trotter had
described. Adam Curtis's award-winning 2002 documentary for the BBC,
The Century of the Self, pinpoints Bernays as the originator of modern public
relations, and Bernays was named one of the 100 most influential Americans of
the 20th century by Life magazine
As civilization has become more complex, and as
the need for invisible government has been increasingly
demonstrated, the technical means have been
invented and developed by which opinion may be regimented.

From Bernays 1928 publication Propaganda

ORGANIZING CHAOS
THE conscious and intelligent manipulation of the
organized habits and opinions of the masses is an
important element in democratic society. Those who
manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute
an invisible government which is the true ruling
power of our country.
We are governed, our minds are molded, our
tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men
we have never heard of. This is a logical result of
the way in which our democratic society is organized.
Vast numbers of human beings must cooperate in
this manner if they are to live together as a smoothly
functioning society.
Our invisible governors are, in many cases, unaware
of the identity of their fellow members in the
inner cabinet.
They govern us by their qualities of natural leadership,
their ability to supply needed ideas and by their
key position in the social structure. Whatever attitude
one chooses to take toward this condition, it
remains a fact that in almost every act of our daily
lives, whether in the sphere of politics or business,
in our social conduct or our ethical thinking, we are
dominated by the relatively small number of persons—
a trifling fraction of our hundred and twenty
million—who understand the mental processes and
social patterns of the masses. It is they who pull the
wires which control the public mind, who harness old
social forces and contrive new ways to bind and guide
the world.
It is not usually realized how necessary these invisible
governors are to the orderly functioning of
our group life. In theory, every citizen may vote
for whom he pleases. Our Constitution does not
envisage political parties as part of the mechanism
of government, and its framers seem not to have
pictured to themselves the existence in our national
politics of anything like the modern political machine.
But the American voters soon found that
without organization and direction their individual
votes, cast, perhaps, for dozens or hundreds of candidates,
would produce nothing but confusion. Invisible
government, in the shape of rudimentary
political parties, arose almost overnight. Ever since
then we have agreed, for the sake of simplicity and
practicality, that party machines should narrow down
the field of choice to two candidates, or at most three
or four.


Offline Muffin

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Re: US Elections 2008
« Reply #206 on: November 07, 2008, 10:34:36 AM »
As for mileage... I'm just asking the question.  How do we transform our "hope" into action?  The question isn't meant to offend.
The answer is controlled folly. In other words, we don't.
"The result of the manifestation is in exact proportion to the force of striving received from the shock." -Gurdjieff, Belzebub's Tales to his grandson

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tangerine dream

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Re: US Elections 2008
« Reply #207 on: November 07, 2008, 11:18:27 AM »
  How do we transform our "hope" into action?  The question isn't meant to offend.

Wait a second...
Something just occurred to me.   The way I see it, hope IS action.

I'm thinking here...
It is a noun, sure (the hope) but it is also something that we do, (we hope, we are hoping) so therefore an action word, a verb.
 :)


Offline Quantum Shaman

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Re: US Elections 2008
« Reply #208 on: November 07, 2008, 02:47:21 PM »
Wait a second...
Something just occurred to me.   The way I see it, hope IS action.

I'm thinking here...
It is a noun, sure (the hope) but it is also something that we do, (we hope, we are hoping) so therefore an action word, a verb.
 :)



No offense, Lori, but that doesn't work for me in the bigger picture.  I can "hope" for a new car, or to be healed of some ailment, but unless I put some additional effort into it, hope alone normally doesn't yield results. 

It can't hurt, but I'm not sure how much it "helps" either.  OTOH, if it helps someone feel better about themselves or their situation, that's a good thing.  :)
"You have to be immortal before you will know how to become immortal."
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Offline daphne

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Re: US Elections 2008
« Reply #209 on: November 07, 2008, 03:11:25 PM »


....it's an ongoing industry that's all about making you think
the choices you make are your own....



"The compulsion to possess and hold on to things is not unique. Everyone who wants to follow the warrior's path has to rid himself of this fixation in order not to focus our dreaming body on the weak face of the second attention." - The Eagle's Gift

 

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