Author Topic: WE'RE STUFFED!!!  (Read 31211 times)

Offline TIOTIT

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Re: WE'RE STUFFED!!!
« Reply #825 on: December 05, 2008, 12:44:53 AM »
There is already a lot of info on this event
this is a longish article with some curious
insights......

Mumbai attacks more complicated than corporate press reports
By Wayne Madsen
Online Journal Contributing Writer

Dec 3, 2008, 00:24

(WMR) -- As first reported by WMR while the corporate press was uttering the “Al Qaeda” bogeyman as likely behind the terror attacks on Mumbai, the Press Trust of India (PTI) is now confirming WMR’s initial report that Pakistan- and Dubai-based criminal syndicate boss Dawood Ibrahim’s gangsters handed over the weapons and explosive material to Lashkar-e-Taiba (LET) terrorists to carry out the assault on targets in Mumbai.

According to PTI, one LET terrorist captured by India, Ajmal Qasab, said he and his fellow terrorists sailed from Karachi and entered Mumbai’s port area with the help of Ibrahim’s agents who run several customs facilities in Mumbai. However, there are some questions being raised about Qasab and his claims. The so-called security camera shot of Qasab, who is being billed by the media as the “lone surviving gunman,” at Chatrapathi Sivaji train terminal in Mumbai, appears fake. The angle is too narrow for a train station which would have a wider angle and be shot from higher up than the photo being shopped by the Indian police. However, according to Asian intelligence sources, Qasab may have been trained by Hindu militants and was rushed to the scene of the attack for a photo opportunity hastily arranged by the Hindu right-wing Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) propaganda team. One Asian intelligence source who has spent a great deal of time in Pakistan reports that he has “never seen a haircut like his [Qasab’s] in Pakistan or on either side of Line of Control in Kashmir.” He also pointed out that Qasab is a bit overweight for an average “mujad” who slim down in training by exercising and eating a sparse diet of lentils and flat bread.

An abandoned Indian fishing boat, the Kuber, discovered off the coast of Mumbai, was found to contain satellite phones and global positioning system (GPS) equipment pre-programmed with a return route to Karachi, Pakistan. The Ibrahim gangsters and LET terrorists had hijacked the Kuber and killed its crew.

It has also been revealed that the Trident-Oberoi Hotel had been chosen by the terrorists because a large number of Israeli businessmen were staying there while attending a diamond exhibition. WMR has learned from our Asian intelligence sources that a large number of Mossad officers used the Trident-Oberoii as a base of operations, along with the ultra-Orthodox Jewish Chabad House, which was also targeted by the terrorist-gangster alliance.

The Oberoi hostages were shot in the back of their heads, a typical gangland execution method preferred by Ibrahim and not the firing squad method used by LET. The outbreak of fires in rooms at the Oberoi also point to the possibility that the hotel was being used by British, American (possibly Defense Intelligence Agency), Australian, and Israeli non-official cover (NOC) agents as a base and documents were being destroyed before the hotel was fully secured by the Ibrahim-LET assailants. There was an initial report that a number of bodies of white males brought out of the Oberoi were Australians.

A report in Kashmir Times, since removed from its website, claimed that the terrorists that entered the Taj Mahal Palace hotel had identified two senior U.S. intelligence officers in the crowd. The fact that the two CIA agents were singled out lends more proof to WMR’s original report that Ibrahim was retaliating against his old CIA friends because he suspected them of working with India’s Research and Analysis Wing (RAW) and Pakistan’s Inter-Service Intelligence (ISI) agency to extradite him from his sanctuary in Quetta, Pakistan, to India. Ibrahim is a veteran of CIA “off-the-books” operations during the mujahedin war against the Soviets in Afghanistan and currently in CIA drug and weapons smuggling and money laundering activities in South Asia, particularly in facilitating the shipment of a bumper crop of opium from U.S.-occupied Afghanistan to enrich the coffers of CIA slush funds.

Ibrahim was also involved in supplying nuclear materials to Pakistan’s father of the nuclear bomb, Dr. Abdul Qadeer Khan. Khan has made no secret that the CIA was well aware of his activities and Ibrahim may be in a position to know much more about the secret networks that supplied Pakistan with proscribed materials, including nuclear-related and missile items, networks that may involve CIA channels and Turkish and Israeli criminal intermediaries.

The fate of the two CIA agents at the Taj, which was apparently being used by the CIA as an operational base, is unknown. Ibrahim’s targeting of Britons was a message sent to British MI-6 assets in ISI not to cooperate with the Americans and Indians in double-crossing Ibrahim by arranging a quick extradition “flight” from Pakistan to India.

However, Ibrahim, before he became a target for the United States, was keenly avoided by U.S. officials in connection with terrorist acts. On July 11, 2006, when Mumbai was struck by a series of deadly train bombings that killed over 200 people (the so-called “7/11” bombings), Assistant Secretary of State for Central and South Asian Affairs Richard Boucher was careful not to assign blame to Ibrahim. Boucher said, “Dawood Ibrahim is indeed on our list. We do think he was responsible for some of the previous crimes. I don’t know personally if he is responsible for this one or not . . .”

India is trying to boost the LET’s involvement in the Mumbai attacks while downplaying the role of Ibrahim. However, WMR has learned that LET was a mere subcontractor to Ibrahim’s criminal syndicate in order to send a message to Delhi, Washington, and London that he will not be bartered away in a side deal with Pakistan’s president, Asif Ali Zardari, Benazir Bhutto’s tainted widower, who is a business rival of Ibrahim in Pakistan. Zardari has made no secret of his dislike of Ibrahim, especially since the Indian expat son of a Mumbai Criminal Branch police constable is so powerful in Pakistan he is known as the “King of Karachi.”

The Indian government realizes that Ibrahim has catered for some time to India’s wealthy elite, including the nouveau riche of “Bollywood,” India’s movie-making mecca. He has served as pimp, drug dealer, moneylender at casinos (including the casinos in Kathmandu Ibrahim runs jointly with CIA assets), hitman, extortionist, import and export fixer, cop briber at amazingly reasonable fees via deals disguised as legitimate business contracts. In 1997, Ibrahim was accused of the contract murder of well-known Bollywood filmmaker Gulshan Kumar. One of Kumar’s Bollywood rivals was accused of ordering the hit on Kumar.

Ibrahim’s network in Bihar facilitates lucrative gold smuggling in and out of neighboring Nepal, a gold smuggling network that ultimately leads to Ibrahim’s gold smuggling operations in Dubai. Ibrahim also runs a lucrative gold and weapons smuggling operation in Gujarat. The Ibrahim gold smuggling operations in Dubai also mask British intelligence money laundering operations in the Caribbean and Isle of Man -- and this intelligence has been captured by National Security Agency (NSA) surveillance of both financial transactions and the reported compromise of encrypted British TOP SECRET UK EYES ONLY communications by NSA.

Ibrahim sent a lesson to Britain based on history. The weapons smuggled by Ibrahim’s men and the LET into Mumbai came through the customs house on Sassoon Dock and transferred to fast inflatable boats that landed at the Gate of India, the old British East India Company’s trade passage into India. The lucrative Indian drug trade conducted through Mumbai has been divided between Ibrahim’s Muslim gangs and the relatively new arrivals, the Russian-Israeli Mafia. The Indian drug business is largely run out of London and there has even been some cooperation between the Russian-Israeli mob and Ibrahim’s gangsters by divvying up stolen Nokia mobile phones --hijacked during the shipment process -- that are used to coordinate the drug and weapons smuggling trade.

However, WMR has learned from Asian intelligence sources that the Russian-Israeli gangsters operating out of Chabad House tried to take over Mumbai’s drug trade with the help of local Jewish mobsters so Ibrahim, while settling scores with India, the CIA, and Britain, decided to have his subcontractor LET terrorists pay a visit to Chabad House and “collect on a debt with high interest.” Ibrahim has always been careful to kill more criminals than he employs and after his attacks on Hindu and Israeli mobsters in Mumbai, the ratio has reportedly gotten better. Ibrahim eliminated practically every one of his criminal rivals in Mumbai during the 1980s and he is not about to see Hindu and Israeli crime syndicates replace him in his fiercely fought-for turf in Mumbai and other parts of India. Ibrahim’s drug and other smuggling operations in Thailand, Malaysia, Singapore, Africa, and Sri Lanka have also faced new and increased competition from Russian-Israeli gangsters operating in the same regions.

In March 1993, Ibrahim launched a deadly series of car bombings in Mumbai that, like the recent attacks, were dual purpose: Ibrahim got his revenge for a Hindu massacre of Muslims in India and he wiped out Karim Lala’s criminal network in central Mumbai, one of his last rivals in the city. Lala was once Ibrahim’s boss before Ibrahim broke away to form his own crime syndicate. The perpetrators of the attacks, possessing Indian passports, arrived in Mumbai via Pakistan with valid Pakistani visas obtained from the Pakistani consulate in Dubai. The Pakistani visas showed no Pakistan entry or exit stamps, courtesy of the ISI.

The 1993 terrorists arrived in India, like their more recent colleagues, by boat from Pakistan. Indian police found an unused detonator and timing device with an unexploded bomb used by the terrorists. The FBI confirmed that the timer was of U.S. origin and part if a CIA shipment to the ISI during the 1980s Afghan war.

Due to pressure from India and INTERPOL, Dubai pressured Ibrahim into leaving the emirate in 1994. He took up residence in Karachi and often traveled to Nepal. In 2003, Iqbal Kaskar, Ibrahim’s brother, and Ibrahim’s lieutenant, Ejaz Pathan, were extradited by the United Arab Emirates to India for their roles in the 1993 Mumbai attacks.

There is also evidence that right-wing Hindu elements of the RAW were aware of Ibrahim’s hit on Mumbai beforehand but allowed it to play out in order to carry out a “soft coup” by right-wing Hindu nationalists against the Indian Congress government of Prime Minister Manmohan Singh. The Hindu nationalists are allied through lucrative business ties with prospective U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton. The Hindu nationalists are hoping for a showdown with Pakistan and a confrontation with China. The Hindu right-wingers are also supported by the Israeli criminal and intelligence network in India.

Ibrahim and his friends in ISI may have been sending a clear message to the billionaire Tata family that owns the Taj Mahal Palace hotel. The Tatas stand to make a handsome profit from the recent U.S.-nuclear deal and the fact that the Tatas are Parsees -- fire worshippers -- prompted Ibrahim to order his men to burn down the Taj Mahal hotel.

The first police official who uncovered the soft coup in New Delhi by the Hindu right-wingers was Hemant Karkare, the anti-terrorism chief of the Mumbai police. Karkare was the first target when the attacks in Mumbai began, but it is certain that his knowledge of ties between Hindu terrorists and Indian RAW intelligence in carrying out “false flag” attacks later blamed on Muslims likely earned Karkare a death sentence from the Hindus and their RAW friends. One of the terrorists caught on CCTV at the Mumbai train station was seen wearing an orange wristband, which is commonly worn by Hindu fundamentalists.

And Ibrahim has his own connections with India’s extremist Hindus. Ibrahim’s influence over and fascination with Bollywood has resulted in a friendly relationship between the “King of Karachi” and the actor-turned-Hindu extremist, Hindu Shiv Sena leader Bal Thackeray, who has been accused of involvement in terrorist violence against Indian Muslims. Shiv Sena is connected to a gangland rival of Ibrahim’s, one of Ibrahim’s former aides, Chotta Rajan. Rajan split with Ibrahim after the 1993 Mumbai attacks.

Previously published in the Wayne Madsen Report.

Copyright © 2008 WayneMadenReport.com
Wayne Madsen is a Washington, DC-based investigative journalist and nationally-distributed columnist. He is the editor and publisher of the Wayne Madsen Report (subscription required).

Offline Michael

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Re: WE'RE STUFFED!!!
« Reply #826 on: December 05, 2008, 10:05:31 PM »
I'd just be a little cautious with Wayne Madsen. While perhaps not a member of the 'conspiracy within conspiracies' plot, nonetheless he skirts the border with his blurring the lines between investigative journalism and conspiracy.

I gather he does not hold the pro-Nazi nor the US Christian Loony-Right views of most die-hard conspiracy theorists, yet he seems a little sloppy with his methods:

"The angle is too narrow for a train station which would have a wider angle and be shot from higher up than the photo being shopped by the Indian police."

"according to Asian intelligence sources"

"Qasab may have been trained by Hindu militants and was rushed to the scene of the attack for a photo opportunity hastily arranged by the Hindu right-wing Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) propaganda team"

"One Asian intelligence source who has spent a great deal of time in Pakistan reports that he has “never seen a haircut like his [Qasab’s] in Pakistan or on either side of Line of Control in Kashmir.” He also pointed out that Qasab is a bit overweight for an average “mujad” who slim down in training by exercising and eating a sparse diet of lentils and flat bread."

These types of comments really roll my eyes. I have trouble reading on after that beginning.

Nonetheless the Dawood connection does need some clarification, so I suppose he is pushing for that, even if he does his reporting no credit with such a lot of silly and unsubstantiated inclusions.

Offline Michael

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Re: WE'RE STUFFED!!!
« Reply #827 on: December 05, 2008, 11:52:26 PM »
I have this feeling creeping up on me:

The focus of world instability has shifted from the Middle East to Pakistan.

I don't think Zardari has any real power to fix this, and his Government has power over only a portion of the country - physically they have no control of great areas of Pakistan, but worse, his secular philosophy is followed by the majority, but there is still a huge minority who are violently diametrically opposed to that.

I sense a civil war is close in Pak.

erik

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Re: WE'RE STUFFED!!!
« Reply #828 on: December 06, 2008, 07:59:14 PM »
Quote
2008 will be coolest year of the decade

James Randerson
guardian.co.uk, Friday December 5 2008

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/dec/05/climate-change-weather

Global average for 2008 should come in close to 14.3C, but cooler temperature is not evidence that global warming is slowing, say climate scientists



This year is set to be the coolest since 2000, according to a preliminary estimate of global average temperature that is due to be released next week by the Met Office. The global average for 2008 should come in close to 14.3C, which is 0.14C below the average temperature for 2001-07.

The relatively chilly temperatures compared with recent years are not evidence that global warming is slowing however, say climate scientists at the Met Office. "Absolutely not," said Dr Peter Stott, the manager of understanding and attributing climate change at the Met Office's Hadley Centre. "If we are going to understand climate change we need to look at long-term trends."

Prof Myles Allen at Oxford University who runs the climateprediction.net website, said he feared climate sceptics would overinterpret the figure. "You can bet your life there will be a lot of fuss about what a cold year it is. Actually no, its not been that cold a year, but the human memory is not very long, we are used to warm years," he said, "Even in the 80s [this year] would have felt like a warm year."

And 2008 would have been a scorcher in Charles Dickens's time - without human-induced warming there would have been a one in a hundred chance of getting a year this hot. "For Dickens this would have been an extremely warm year," he said. On the flip side, in the current climate there is a roughly one in 10chance of having a year this cool.

The Met Office predicted at the beginning of the year that 2008 would be cooler than recent years because of a La Niña event - characterised by unusually cold ocean temperatures in the equatorial Pacific Ocean. It is the mirror image of the El Niño climate cycle. The Met Office had forecast an annual global average of 14.37C.

Allen was presenting the data on this year's global average temperature at the Appleton Space Conference at Rutherford Appleton Laboratory, near Didcot yesterday. The 14.3C figure is based on data from January to October. When the Met Office makes its formal announcement next week they will incorporate data from November. "[The figure] will differ from it, but it won't differ massively," said Stott, "We would expect the number to go up rather than down because the early parts of the year were still under the La Niña conditions."

Assuming the final figure is close to 14.3C then 2008 will be the tenth hottest year on record. The hottest was 1998 - which included a very strong El Niño event - followed by 2005, 2003 and 2002. The data are a combination of measurements from satellites, ground weather stations and buoys which are compiled jointly by the Hadley Centre and the Climate Research Unit at the University of East Anglia.

In March, a team of climate scientists at Kiel University predicted that natural variation would mask the 0.3C warming predicted by the Intergovernment Panel on Climate Change over the next decade. They said that global temperatures would remain constant until 2015 but would then begin to accelerate.

Offline Michael

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Re: WE'RE STUFFED!!!
« Reply #829 on: December 06, 2008, 08:45:21 PM »
One Asian intelligence source who has spent a great deal of time in Pakistan reports that he has “never seen a haircut like his [Qasab’s] in Pakistan or on either side of Line of Control in Kashmir.” He also pointed out that Qasab is a bit overweight for an average “mujad” who slim down in training by exercising and eating a sparse diet of lentils and flat bread.

This snippet is actually more sensible than he has presented it. It is not just a haircut style. These guys were not your Afghan Taliban types, not the typical poor classes of Pakistan, nourished on madrassas education. They were smart, dedicated, put up a stunningly clever fight, wore jeans and Nike shoes, tourist style backpacks, Kasab wore a Versace T-shirt - ie they were angry well-educated, middle-class kids. What Pak/Indians call chikna cool, wealthy, smooth looking guys.

This, along with targeting Israeli, British, and US citizens, suggests they are fired by gross injustice.

erik

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Re: WE'RE STUFFED!!!
« Reply #830 on: December 06, 2008, 10:07:21 PM »
This snippet is actually more sensible than he has presented it. It is not just a haircut style. These guys were not your Afghan Taliban types, not the typical poor classes of Pakistan, nourished on madrassas education. They were smart, dedicated, put up a stunningly clever fight, wore jeans and Nike shoes, tourist style backpacks, Kasab wore a Versace T-shirt - ie they were angry well-educated, middle-class kids. What Pak/Indians call chikna cool, wealthy, smooth looking guys.

This, along with targeting Israeli, British, and US citizens, suggests they are fired by gross injustice.

Gross injustice or gross grievance - there seems to be a trend of various people getting raging mad in one way:

http://restlesssoma.com.au/soma/index.php?topic=460.msg32478#msg32478

or another:

Quote
Is the Financial Crisis Increasing Family Suicide Rates?

http://www.65degreesnorth.com/content/view/876/92/

By Tunji Toriola   
Monday, 10 November 2008

Medical doctor and researcher Tunji Toriola looks at the recent family tragedies.

As the shock from the family suicide/murder in Oulu three weeks ago still resonates, the country is shocked to read about more family killings within a space of one week in other parts of Finland. A middle aged man shot his wife and then killed himself in Herttoniemi in Helsinki and another couple committed suicide in Porvoo. While motives are still being sought, since none of them left suicide notes, the police have tried to assure the nation that these are random acts and are not driven by the recent economic problems. According to released figures, there is usually an average of seven incidents of family murder/suicide in a year in Finland since the 1950s regardless of economic situation. Hopefully the recent trends will stop, if not, that figure may be exceeded this year.

The USA has been the country most affected initially by the recent economic troubles and health officials are on alert because they have witnessed an increasing number of suicides as a result of the financial crisis, especially since September. A financial manager who was recently laid off and lost a fortune in the stock market killed his entire family (wife and 5 kids) in a murder/suicide, an elderly widow shot herself when she was about to be evicted from her house as a result of mortgage default, a housewife whose family was about to be evicted from their house because of mortgage default left a note for the mortgage company "by the time you foreclose on my house, I’ll be dead" and truly she shot herself. The list goes on. And it is not only in the USA. A few incidents have been reported in the United Kingdom in the last 2 months. Most memorable was a man who shot his wife, their daughter, 3 horses and dogs and then set their £1.2 million house on fire because of mounting debts.

As the financial crisis worsens, the World Health Organization (WHO) has warned of a surge in the rate of mental illness and suicide because of the physical, emotional and mental stress involved when people lose their homes and livelihood. But does the buck stop with the financial crisis? Opinions on this differ. Studies in Europe reveal little annual change in suicide rates despite different economic changes between 1989 and 2002 but a different picture may emerge if the suicide rates in the various countries are analyzed separately especially in the Baltic countries. In Japan, however, the financial crisis of 1998 resulted in a 40% increase in suicide rates and the country is preparing for an increase in suicide rates with the present crisis.

Suicide is a maladaptive way of coping with stress and many things may initiate stress; right now, it is the financial crisis. The underlying factor may be a lack of care for people who really need help in time of need such as in the present financial crisis. Mental illnesses, especially depression are the main precipitants of suicide or suicidal ideas and according to the WHO, presently, depression is responsible for the highest burden of diseases in industrialized countries.

Also, in the European Union, 58,000 people commit suicide every year and dying from suicide accounts for second highest risk of death among young men. The present economic problems may precipitate suicidal thoughts among vulnerable people by causing chronic anxiety, panic and a feeling of helplessness. Especially among people who already suffer from depression, these feelings may be too much to handle and they may seek suicide as an easier alternative to living.

Unfortunately, in many societies, mental illnesses, including depression are still stigmatized and most people live with the disease without being diagnosed and put on treatment, hence, becoming more vulnerable during this period.

In America, the present crisis has increased the number of calls made to mental health hot-lines with most of them jammed at the moment; demand for counseling services has increased and calls to suicide prevention hot lines has increased by up to 20% in the last couple of months. Right now, people need help on how to deal with the present financial crisis and impending financial doom. Help in the form of counseling, help in the form of getting treatment to those who need it before they succumb to the idea of ending it all, help by health care workers in identifying people with depression and other mental health problems who may be more vulnerable and finally, help from family and friends in dealing with the emotional trauma.

Jahn

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Re: WE'RE STUFFED!!!
« Reply #831 on: December 07, 2008, 06:26:10 AM »

Quote

In America, the present crisis has increased the number of calls made to mental health hot-lines with most of them jammed at the moment; demand for counseling services has increased and calls to suicide prevention hot lines has increased by up to 20% in the last couple of months. Right now, people need help on how to deal with the present financial crisis and impending financial doom. Help in the form of counseling, help in the form of getting treatment to those who need it before they succumb to the idea of ending it all, help by health care workers in identifying people with depression and other mental health problems who may be more vulnerable and finally, help from family and friends in dealing with the emotional trauma.

What would anyone expect?

That is one of my areas of research, economic crisis and public health - and unfortunately we are only in the beginning of a depression. Not a worldwide depression but still the largest crisis since the 1930's.

dc_chance

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Re: WE'RE STUFFED!!!
« Reply #832 on: December 07, 2008, 07:26:02 AM »
What would anyone expect?

That is one of my areas of research, economic crisis and public health - and unfortunately we are only in the beginning of a depression. Not a worldwide depression but still the largest crisis since the 1930's.

Rambling thoughts from this entire thread...

I work for a company making toys... 4 wheelers, personal watercraft, golf cars. and a sort of cross between a Jeep and a 4 wheeler. 3 mfg. plants and 3 large warehouses on our complex. We ship worldwide.

About 1800 people employed there in total. I've been watching our production schedules for the next 3 years changing almost daily... dropping of course.... next year will be about 1/2 what we did last year... as of Friday...  that can and will probably change next week.

Of the 1800 people there... 600 are what we call temps... peopledhired temporarily... through outside firms. We've cut about 200 of those... the latest production numbers indicate we will let the 400 others go soon.. and then it begins on the permanent employees.

I've already had to prepare a plan for layoffs in my dept. Deciding who are the key people to keep working and the less fortunate that I have to turn lose in these frightening times. I can already see all production being done in 1 plant instead of 3.

Job's are very difficult to find now and that will get worse. I am trying to prepare myself for a lowered standard of living... not that I have such a high standard now, but I am trying to prepare myself now and I think that no matter what I might be able to do, it won't be enough.

Not related to production downturns, but indicative of the remainder of my thoughts in this post is that several weeks ago, I had to terminate an employee. He could not get along with co-workers and made threats that ciolated a zero tolerance policy the company has. The guys is very skilled and hard worker, but I think he did have some personal issues... that he needed counseling or perhaps something deeper to help with. anyway... he called me Thanksgiving Day... I answered the phone and he wanted me to call places he had applied to for work and try to get him hired. My company has a no comment requirement.. I can not give references good or bad.. I can only refer a called to our human resources department. I explained that to the guy... He told me he had lost hope of finding a job... it's only been 8 weeks... he said he is sitting in his home... thinking about this for 24 hours a day for the past 2 months... he said if I won't help him, then he only has one choice. He didn't elaborate and I did not ask. I can't give a reference for the man because of company policy and also because I could not have the thought in my mind that I had helped place a man in a place where he might do harm...

The man, Ralph,  had threatened to kill a coworker for "smiling at him".... "every time I see him he smiles at me"... so he told his supervisor that he would "put a gun in the guy's mouth and pull the trigger". The man has quite an arsenal of weapons... assault rifles fitted to be fully automatic, pistols, shotguns... a 50 caliber sniper rifle he purchased earlier this year... cost him about $2,500... long range killing weapon. I had concern he might fixate on someone when he was fired... might do something crazy.... I thought if he had not found a job by the holidays... he would become... dangerous.. to himself or others.. Ralph told me Thanksgiving morning since I would not help him find a job, there was only one thing to do.... so I wonder what that is... perhaps it is to use a weapon on the co-worked who smiled at him... perhaps on the supervisor who told us what he had threatened to do... perhaps he will blame me and the HR lady who fired him... perhaps he will take his own life.. or perhaps it will be something else... the possibilities are endless... the point I am rambling on about and trying to make... is he is desperate and dangerous. I am not worried about this, concerned yes, but I don't live in fear... because there is nothing I can really do about whatever it is he does except report the conversation to HR.

Back on track.... my gut sense is that in this turn of the wheel....  things will continue to get worse for some time... who really knows how long... here in the US we have ridden a high cycle for many years.. and I believe things must find balance..

The wheel turns... things run in cycles... what goes up, must come down.... things will continue to get worse for some time...  ... and I would like to think I can survive one way or another... I can hunt and fish... I can gather things growing wild, I can plant seeds... yet there is always the 1 major concern if things get really bad.

When masses of people are out of work... when fear and desperation have sunk their claws deep into the collective human mind...  many will do things that they would never have dreamed of doing before... and those capable of doing horrible things will feel more freedom to do such things... respect for the life of others for those people will hold little or no value.

Survival is at the root of many fears/actions/reactions that permeate our minds and lives. Desperate people will resort to desperate means to survive. Of course we all know this....

A fleeting thought returns to me fairly often of late. I've read a few books on the Mayan calendar and the purported end date of 2012 and of course I don't know whether it does or it doesn't. The things written about in this long thread... "We're Stuffed"... all seem to point to something happening at some point in the near future, so perhaps 2012 will be a significant year. If 2012 is the end or a moment of explosive change.... and it is connected with the present state of events round the world.... the next 3 years or so could possibly truly be hell on earth.

Anyone have any credible escape plans? Asked with a smile........ cause I don't really at the moment.






erik

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Re: WE'RE STUFFED!!!
« Reply #833 on: December 08, 2008, 03:07:56 AM »
Pak hand in Mumbai events:

Quote
Ex-U.S. Official Cites Pakistani Training for India Attackers

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/04/world/asia/04india.html?_r=2&hp
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/04/world/asia/04india.html?_r=2&hp

WASHINGTON — A former Defense Department official said Wednesday that American intelligence agencies had determined that former officers from Pakistan’s Army and its powerful Inter-Services Intelligence agency helped train the Mumbai attackers.

But the official, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said that no specific links had been uncovered yet between the terrorists and the Pakistani government.

His disclosure came as Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice held meetings with Indian leaders in New Delhi and Adm. Mike Mullen, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, met with their Pakistani counterparts in Islamabad, in a two-pronged effort to pressure Pakistan to cooperate fully in the effort to track down those responsible for the bloody attacks in Mumbai last week.

Also on Wednesday, a “fully functional” bomb was found and defused at a major Mumbai train station that had reopened days earlier, the Mumbai authorities announced. The discovery raised terrifying questions about why the authorities had failed to find it all this time.

Meanwhile, tens of thousands of people marched through Mumbai, both mourning the at least 173 dead and protesting the failures of Indian politicians and security services to protect citizens.

Ms. Rice strove to balance demands on both countries. She said that Pakistan had a “special responsibility” to cooperate with India and help prevent attacks in the future, here and elsewhere. At the same time, she warned India against hasty reaction that would yield what she called “unintended consequences.”

“The response of the Pakistani government should be one of cooperation and of action,” she said at an evening news conference in New Delhi with her Indian counterpart, Pranab Mukherjee. “Any response needs to be judged by its effectiveness in prevention and also by not creating other unintended consequences or difficulties.”

Mr. Mukherjee said his government was convinced that the attackers and their “controllers” came from Pakistan. He said he had conveyed to Ms. Rice “the feeling of anger and deep outrage in India” and said that his government was prepared to act “with all the means at our disposal” to protect Indian territory and citizens.

Both American and Indian authorities have concluded that there was little doubt that the Mumbai attacks were directed by militants inside Pakistan, and Indian officials have said they have identified three or four masterminds of the attack, including a leader of Lashkar-e-Taiba, Yusuf Muzzamil.

But Ms. Rice said it was premature to comment on whether any particular organization was responsible for the attacks on India’s financial and entertainment capital. She described the assault last week as distinct from others that had struck India since it targeted high-profile targets, including those frequented by foreigners, and appeared to be designed to “send a message.”

Ms. Rice said Pakistan had assured her that it would cooperate with India in its search for those responsible for the slaughter in Mumbai. She said President Asif Ali Zardari “has told me he will follow leads wherever they go” but she made clear that Washington expected him to do so wholeheartedly.

“This is a time for everybody to cooperate and to do so transparently, and this is especially a time for Pakistan to do so,” she said.

Lashkar-e-Taiba is officially banned in Pakistan, but it has been linked to the country’s powerful intelligence service and is believed to have moved its militant networks to Pakistan’s tribal areas.

For the moment, Mr. Zardari is playing down any links to Pakistan, including the Indian identification of the surviving attacker as a Pakistani. “We have not been given any tangible proof to say that he is definitely a Pakistani. I very much doubt that he’s a Pakistani,” Mr. Zardari told CNN’s “Larry King Live,” saying that his government would take action if India produced evidence to support the claim.

He also indicated that he would turn down an Indian demand, made on Monday night, to hand over about 20 fugitives, some of them linked to organized crime, said by India to be living in Pakistan. Rather, Mr. Zardari said, they would be tried in Pakistani courts if there were evidence to support a trial.

In Islamabad, Admiral Mullen met with President Zardari; the Pakistani national security adviser, Mahmud Ali Durrani; and several top military officials, including the Army chief of staff, Gen. Ashfaq Pervaiz Kayani, and the new intelligence chief, Lt. Gen. Ahmed Shuja Pasha.

Admiral Mullen pressed the Pakistani leaders to crack down on Lashkar-e-Taiba’s network of training camps, including those in Pakistan-controlled Kashmir, and the organization’s guerrilla recruiting efforts, an American military official said.

In New Delhi, response to a question, Ms. Rice said that the sophistication and choice of targets in Mumbai distinguished it from previous attacks. Earlier in the day, also in response to a question, Ms. Rice was asked about any possible involvement by Al Qaeda. “Whether there is a direct Al Qaeda hand or not, this is clearly the kind of terror in which Al Qaeda participates,” she said.

The bomb was found in a bag the Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus, the old Victoria station, one of the sites singled out for attack last week. It held about 20 pounds of explosives and was rigged with a timer, the Indian authorities said, but it was not clear whether it had not been activated or had malfunctioned.

The bag, apparently left behind by the attackers a week ago, had been collected along with a large pile of luggage that passengers had abandoned as they fled. That is where the police found it on Wednesday.

The station has been open for days, with thousands of passengers streaming through, and the discovery raised new questions about the capability of Indian security services.

There were conflicting accounts about how the bomb were found. Some reports said that the police had been tipped off by the surviving attacker, but others said a sniffer dog found it during a routine sweep of the abandoned luggage ahead of an officials visit. It was rendered neutral on the spot, the authorities said, and then subsequently removed for analysis. Train service was not disrupted for the maneuvers.

Ms. Rice’s diplomatic agenda takes place as Washington is seeking high-level cooperation in different spheres with both India and Pakistan, nuclear-armed neighbors. Washington wants Pakistan to help defeat Al Qaeda and Taliban insurgents along the border with Afghanistan.

But Pakistani security officials have threatened to withdraw troops from the lawless border region to redeploy them if India and Pakistan slide toward their fourth war since independence from Britain in 1947, Reuters reported.

In October, Washington opened a new chapter of cooperation with India when Congress gave final approval to a breakthrough agreement permitting civilian nuclear trade between the two countries for the first time in three decades.

Under the terms of the deal, the United States will now be able to sell nuclear fuel, technology and reactors to India for peaceful energy although New Delhi tested bombs in 1974 and 1998 and never signed the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty. In exchange, India agreed to open up 14 civilian nuclear facilities to international inspection, but would continue to shield eight military reactors from outside scrutiny.

Eric Schmitt reported from Washington and Somini Sengupta from Mumbai, India. Reporting was contributed by Alan Cowell from London, and Jeremy Kahn and Robert F. Worth from Mumbai.

erik

  • Guest
Re: WE'RE STUFFED!!!
« Reply #834 on: December 08, 2008, 03:15:19 AM »
This may become a turning point for Pak:

Quote
200 Pakistani militants torch NATO military vehicles

http://www.welt.de/english-news/article2839776/200-Pakistani-militants-torch-NATO-military-vehicles.html

7.December 2008, 09:24

Hordes of Pakistani militants set on fire 96 trucks carrying military vehicles for western forces in Afghanistan in an attack in the northwestern city of Peshawar on Sunday, police said. Security guards said they were overpowered by more than 200 militants who attacked two terminals on Peshawar’s ring road, where trucks carrying Humvees and other military vehicles were parked.

"It happened at around 2.30 a.m.. They fired rockets, hurled hand grenades and then set ablaze 96 trucks,“ senior police officer, Azeem Khan, told Reuters.

Most supplies, including fuel, for U.S. and NATO forces in landlocked Afghanistan are trucked through Pakistan, much of it through the fabled Khyber Pass that runs through the mountains between Peshawar, capital of North-West Frontier Province and the border town of Torkham.

Khan said one private security guard was killed in an exchange of fire between police and militants.

"They were shouting Allah-o-Akbar (God is Great) and Down With America. They broke into the terminals after snatching guns from us,“ said Mohammad Rafiullah, security guard of a terminal.

Last month, the government closed the main supply route to Western forces in Afghanistan for a week after militants hijacked more than a dozen trucks on the road through Khyber Pass.

There have been worrying signs this year that Islamist militancy has spread to the area from more distant tribal regions where the Taliban and al Qaeda have taken root.

Peshawar city police chief, Safwat Ghayyur, said the government planned to launch an operation against "miscreants“ in near future.

"Certainly, a plan of operation is in place as we have crafted a strategy in which we will have to go after them,“ he said.

The other main land route to Afghanistan runs from the southwestern city of Quetta through the border town of Chaman to the southern Afghan city of Kandahar.

Jahn

  • Guest
Re: WE'RE STUFFED!!!
« Reply #835 on: December 08, 2008, 06:09:36 AM »
Back on track.... my gut sense is that in this turn of the wheel....  things will continue to get worse for some time... who really knows how long... here in the US we have ridden a high cycle for many years.. and I believe things must find balance..

The wheel turns... things run in cycles... what goes up, must come down.... things will continue to get worse for some time...  ... and I would like to think I can survive one way or another... I can hunt and fish... I can gather things growing wild, I can plant seeds... yet there is always the 1 major concern if things get really bad.

When masses of people are out of work... when fear and desperation have sunk their claws deep into the collective human mind...  many will do things that they would never have dreamed of doing before... and those capable of doing horrible things will feel more freedom to do such things... respect for the life of others for those people will hold little or no value.

Survival is at the root of many fears/actions/reactions that permeate our minds and lives. Desperate people will resort to desperate means to survive. Of course we all know this....


Thank you for sharing these analysis of the events at your job. You are in the middle of the recession so to speak while we in Europe are not. To be frank - the citizens in the US has a hard time to face before they have regained the power over their economy. The new presidency is a promising way out of the mess. International soultions will be necessary to secure a total collapse ( e g the US goes bankrupt).

A fleeting thought returns to me fairly often of late. I've read a few books on the Mayan calendar and the purported end date of 2012 and of course I don't know whether it does or it doesn't. The things written about in this long thread... "We're Stuffed"... all seem to point to something happening at some point in the near future, so perhaps 2012 will be a significant year. If 2012 is the end or a moment of explosive change.... and it is connected with the present state of events round the world.... the next 3 years or so could possibly truly be hell on earth.

Anyone have any credible escape plans? Asked with a smile........ cause I don't really at the moment.

There is no such escape option, we stand with the face toward the wind, but as Michael suggested in a previous post, it is good to have a place for retreat. My brothers and me have a cabin in the South woods near a lake where our families and friends can go - places like that will ease up our existence.

The great Bell for our Earth and mankind was 25th December 2004 when the Tsunami hit in the East Asia and took more than 200 000 lives. Ever since then my focus has been here, to engage in this group, and on my spiritual development. To be assisting and to grow and evolve with even more energy as input than ever before. Why I say "Bell" is because Earth sounded as a bell toward the Universe generated by  the earthquake under the ocean. It kept ringing for several days.

According to my Inca friends a date in November this Year was also a significant day for the next three years. Otherwise I am in general sceptic to calender prophecies and similar forecasts. 
Nevertheless many belive in the Sixth Sun theory:

From the Americas to Africa, from Tibet to Australasia, these times are seen as pivotal in the evolution of mankind. Ancient prophecies speak of massive earth changes and of a huge shift in Planetary Consciousness. According to the Mayan Long Count Calendar, the last date recorded is the winter solstice - 21st December 2012.

They call this the time of the Sixth Sun each sun marking the evolutionary steps of human consciousness. They also refer to this time as the end days or the end of time as we know


http://www.timeofthesixthsun.com/
« Last Edit: December 08, 2008, 07:00:38 AM by Jamir »

nichi

  • Guest
Re: WE'RE STUFFED!!!
« Reply #836 on: December 08, 2008, 06:21:25 AM »
Quote
According to my Inca friends a date in November this Year was also a significant day for the next three years.

What do you think that date was, Jamir? The US election? The Mumbai events? Other?

Jahn

  • Guest
Re: WE'RE STUFFED!!!
« Reply #837 on: December 08, 2008, 06:51:39 AM »
What do you think that date was, Jamir? The US election? The Mumbai events? Other?

You are so fast Nichi - i was just about to check it up!

"Thank you to those who joined us in prayer ceremony on 11/11 – The End of the Beginning, welcoming the new 6th day of the Mayan Calendar.

dc_chance

  • Guest
Re: WE'RE STUFFED!!!
« Reply #838 on: December 08, 2008, 07:06:59 AM »

There is no such escape option, we stand with the face toward the wind..

I've thought more than a few times, if I had the funds, I'd buy some land and prepare a place in the least inhabited area I could find, but I don't think there is a place that would really provide safety.... and what is life if we have to live it in constant fear. 

I think... smiling.. was about to write what I think could be in store for mankind, but I really have no clue....


For many years after I got married, I did not want children... I had a knowing that my generation would be the last to know the "good old days" as we say in the US. I didn't want to bring a life into the world that I felt we would be facing.... But, we did make a choice... my daughter's mother and I.... to have a child... she recently turned 25 years old. I wonder what she will face.... I am trying to gently awaken her, but she is not ready to see. There are a few things I could teach her from what I've learned, but it has to be a choice one makes for themself.... to walk the path.... and honestly, I don't know that the things I know will ultimately have any value at all....

Hmm.... what to do for now.. except live in the moment... cherish the sweetness in life where we find it... and life is indeed sweet.... as hard as my life has been at times, I have known heaven on earth.... and perhaps that time is almost past.

 


nichi

  • Guest
Re: WE'RE STUFFED!!!
« Reply #839 on: December 08, 2008, 08:13:40 AM »
11/11 – The End of the Beginning, welcoming the new 6th day of the Mayan Calendar.

Ah! 11-11 -- the awakening!

 

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