Author Topic: WE'RE STUFFED!!!  (Read 30475 times)

Jahn

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Re: WE'RE STUFFED!!!
« Reply #1440 on: October 19, 2010, 03:47:05 AM »
Sorry, chap - any direct answers coming forth? We are not talking about crime. We talk about war and genocide. Do you claim they are drecreasing in the world?

No, they are not.

Despite that, war and genocide belong to the dark ages of humanity and we are moving toward brighter ages.

Genocide is a criminal activity.

Builder

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Re: WE'RE STUFFED!!!
« Reply #1441 on: October 19, 2010, 05:52:37 AM »
And ...?
What changes in the previous discussion.

Presented facts mean that:

1) It was the Soviet Union who armed Germany and let German forces to train
2) Soviet Union provided Germany with chemical weapons and gases used later in concentration camps and allowed Germans to practice the use of these gases
3) Dresden as an example of a country being punished because it asked for war is absolutely equal to all these countless Soviet cities destroyed in war. Soviets asked for war by training their fellow German socialists in modern warfare and mass killing.
4) Germany as a defeated extreme form of a nation-state was mostly purged of nazis after the war
5) Soviet Union as a side equally responsible for unleashing the war and culprit of even bigger atrocities against humanity was never purged of anything
6) Nazi Germany as an example 'death cult' loses validity as Soviet Union trumps it in many areas of atrocites and  Soviet Union did it its best to unleash nazi Germany on Europe. Small wonder it came back to Soviets with vengeance.
7) 'Death cult' as an exceptional human mind-state itself loses meaning in the face of atrocities commited by various nations all over the world - it has been the usual mind-state of very many people who have never heard of nazis.

At this stage I respectfully bow out.
Facts mean something only when there is interest in considering them.
If they do not matter - they do not matter.

Ke-ke wan

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Re: WE'RE STUFFED!!!
« Reply #1442 on: October 19, 2010, 06:21:37 AM »

I won't go into them, but even I can't get them out of my head now.

For a long while I was having what I could only assume were past-life dreams of concentration camps and torture.  Not easy to speak of, or witness.

Jahn

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Re: WE'RE STUFFED!!!
« Reply #1443 on: October 20, 2010, 06:00:58 AM »
Presented facts mean that:

 Soviets asked for war by training their fellow German socialists in modern warfare and mass killing.



That could be a point in the discussion.
But! The Germans broke the non attack pact - and thereby changed the situation.

Now please, provide a stack of shoes from any of your apparently known death camps.
Did the Soviet Gulag imprison and kill children and women instantly?
Wasn't the Gulag most for male dissidents?
« Last Edit: October 20, 2010, 06:03:17 AM by Jamir »

Offline Michael

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Re: WE'RE STUFFED!!!
« Reply #1444 on: October 22, 2010, 11:13:46 PM »
http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2010/10/11/the-values-of-everything/

"By George Monbiot. Published in the Guardian 12th October 2010

So here we are, forming an orderly queue at the slaughterhouse gate. The punishment of the poor for the errors of the rich, the abandonment of universalism, the dismantling of the shelter the state provides: apart from a few small protests, none of this has yet brought us out fighting.

The acceptance of policies which counteract our interests is the pervasive mystery of the 21st Century. In the United States, blue-collar workers angrily demand that they be left without healthcare, and insist that millionaires should pay less tax. In the UK we appear ready to abandon the social progress for which our ancestors risked their lives with barely a mutter of protest. What has happened to us?

The answer, I think, is provided by the most interesting report I have read this year. Common Cause, written by Tom Crompton of the environment group WWF, examines a series of fascinating recent advances in the field of psychology(1). It offers, I believe, a remedy to the blight which now afflicts every good cause from welfare to climate change.

Progressives, he shows, have been suckers for a myth of human cognition he labels the Enlightenment model. This holds that people make rational decisions by assessing facts. All that has to be done to persuade people is to lay out the data: they will then use it to decide which options best support their interests and desires.

A host of psychological experiments demonstrates that it doesn’t work like this. Instead of performing a rational cost-benefit analysis, we accept information which confirms our identity and values, and reject information that conflicts with them. We mould our thinking around our social identity, protecting it from serious challenge. Confronting people with inconvenient facts is likely only to harden their resistance to change.

Our social identity is shaped by values which psychologists classify as either extrinsic or intrinsic. Extrinsic values concern status and self-advancement. People with a strong set of extrinsic values fixate on how others see them. They cherish financial success, image and fame. Intrinsic values concern relationships with friends, family and community, and self-acceptance. Those who have a strong set of intrinsic values are not dependent on praise or rewards from other people. They have beliefs which transcend their self-interest.

Few people are all-extrinsic or all-intrinsic. Our social identity is formed by a mixture of values. But psychological tests in nearly 70 countries show that values cluster together in remarkably consistent patterns. Those who strongly value financial success, for example, have less empathy, stronger manipulative tendencies, a stronger attraction to hierarchy and inequality, stronger prejudices towards strangers and less concern about human rights and the environment. Those who have a strong sense of self-acceptance have more empathy and a greater concern about human rights, social justice and the environment. These values suppress each other: the stronger someone’s extrinsic aspirations, the weaker his or her intrinsic goals.

We are not born with our values. They are shaped by the social environment. By changing our perception of what is normal and acceptable, politics alters our minds as much as our circumstances. Free, universal health provision, for example, tends to reinforce intrinsic values. Shutting the poor out of healthcare normalises inequality, reinforcing extrinsic values. The sharp rightward shift which began with Margaret Thatcher and persisted under Blair and Brown, all of whose governments emphasised the virtues of competition, the market and financial success, has changed our values. The British Social Attitudes survey, for example, shows a sharp fall over this period in public support for policies which redistribute wealth and opportunity(2).

This shift has been reinforced by advertising and the media. The media’s fascination with power politics, its rich lists, its catalogues of the 100 most powerful, influential, intelligent or beautiful people, its obsessive promotion of celebrity, fashion, fast cars, expensive holidays: all these inculcate extrinsic values. By generating feelings of insecurity and inadequacy - which means reducing self-acceptance - they also suppress intrinsic goals.

Advertisers, who employ large numbers of psychologists, are well aware of this. Crompton quotes Guy Murphy, global planning director for the marketing company JWT. Marketers, Murphy says, “should see themselves as trying to manipulate culture; being social engineers, not brand managers; manipulating cultural forces, not brand impressions”(3). The more they foster extrinsic values, the easier it is to sell their products.

Rightwing politicians have also, instinctively, understood the importance of values in changing the political map. Margaret Thatcher famously remarked that “economics are the method; the object is to change the heart and soul.”(4) Conservatives in the United States generally avoid debating facts and figures. Instead they frame issues in ways that both appeal to and reinforce extrinsic values. Every year, through mechanisms that are rarely visible and seldom discussed, the space in which progressive ideas can flourish shrinks a little more. The progressive response to this trend has been disastrous.

Instead of confronting the shift in values, we have sought to adapt to it. Once-progressive political parties have tried to appease altered public attitudes: think of all those New Labour appeals to Middle England, which was often just a code for self-interest. In doing so they endorse and legitimise extrinsic values. Many greens and social justice campaigners have also tried to reach people by appealing to self-interest: explaining how, for example, relieving poverty in the developing world will build a market for British products, or suggesting that, by buying a hybrid car, you can impress your friends and enhance your social status. This tactic also strengthens extrinsic values, making future campaigns even less likely to succeed. Green consumerism has been a catastrophic mistake.

Common Cause proposes a simple remedy: that we stop seeking to bury our values and instead explain and champion them. Progressive campaigners, it suggests, should help to foster an understanding of the psychology which informs political change and show how it has been manipulated. They should also come together to challenge forces – particularly the advertising industry – which make us insecure and selfish.

Ed Miliband appears to understands this need. He told the Labour conference that he “wants to change our society so that it values community and family, not just work” and “wants to change our foreign policy so that it’s always based on values, not just alliances … We must shed old thinking and stand up for those who believe there is more to life than the bottom line.”(5) But there’s a paradox here, which means that we cannot rely on politicians to drive these changes. Those who succeed in politics are, by definition, people who prioritise extrinsic values. Their ambition must supplant peace of mind, family life, friendship - even brotherly love.

So we must lead this shift ourselves. People with strong intrinsic values must cease to be embarrassed by them. We should argue for the policies we want not on the grounds of expediency but on the grounds that they are empathetic and kind; and against others on the grounds that they are selfish and cruel. In asserting our values we become the change we want to see."


Offline Michael

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Re: WE'RE STUFFED!!!
« Reply #1446 on: October 31, 2010, 09:10:56 PM »
Afghanistan.
The debate is raging back and forth across the globe - what to do?

I've heard all the arguments now, and made my decision.
If Western forces pull out of Afghanistan, they will regret it. Under the Taliban the country will revert back to its bad old days of female repression, barbaric practices, become a continual thorn in Pakistan's side, and basically a destabilising influence on the whole region.

Can the Western coalition win in Afghanistan? No way - it's doomed. The alternative to the Taliban is worse than the Taliban, and that's the problem. The people know it. Nation building is a task way beyond the financial stomach of Western nations, beyond the their skills, and beyond the capacity of any military.

What will happen? I predict the Western coalition will have to pull out - perhaps they will find some face-saving excuse, but out they will go. It will be seen as a total failure.


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Re: WE'RE STUFFED!!!
« Reply #1447 on: October 31, 2010, 09:48:45 PM »
Afghanistan.
The debate is raging back and forth across the globe - what to do?

I've heard all the arguments now, and made my decision.
If Western forces pull out of Afghanistan, they will regret it. Under the Taliban the country will revert back to its bad old days of female repression, barbaric practices, become a continual thorn in Pakistan's side, and basically a destabilising influence on the whole region.

Can the Western coalition win in Afghanistan? No way - it's doomed. The alternative to the Taliban is worse than the Taliban, and that's the problem. The people know it. Nation building is a task way beyond the financial stomach of Western nations, beyond the their skills, and beyond the capacity of any military.

What will happen? I predict the Western coalition will have to pull out - perhaps they will find some face-saving excuse, but out they will go. It will be seen as a total failure.

Obama has said that he will not spend US $1 trillion on state building in Afghanistan during the next 10 years. He has decided to start withdrawal in July 2011. Only 3% of americans attribute any importance to that war and it plays no role in Congressional elections (it is not mentioned). There is no public support for that war in the US.

You proably remember how the Vietnam war ended having seen it at the time:

* in 1972-1973 the US tried to get Viet Cong and North Vietnam to sign peace - they bombed North Vietnam cities ferociously during the operation Linebacker II (in Afghanistan they have intensified killing Taliban-Al-Qaeda leadership with drones with the same aim)

*in 1972-1973 the US armed South Vietnamese forces to the teeth and left behind noiminally the strongest force in whole South East Asia (in Afghanistan the try to increase the local armed forces to 170,000 and police to 135,000 by 2014)

*the US ended active combat operations in 1973 and communists took Saigon in...1975. My estimate is that Afghan government will not last even for two years in the face of full-scale Taliban-Al-Qaeda assault.

Following the words of Cohen 'first we take Manhattan and then we take Berlin', the Pak is likely to go under. In 2009 Pak Taliban came within miles of the base in Tarbela where they store Pak nuclear weapons. What's worse - Pak Taliban has many supporters in the Pak army and intelligence services.

For an excellent insight of what is happening in the US administration with regard to war in Afghanistan I recommend Bob Woodward's book 'Obama's Wars'.

Offline Nichi

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Re: WE'RE STUFFED!!!
« Reply #1448 on: November 01, 2010, 07:12:10 AM »
<span data-s9e-mediaembed="youtube" style="display:inline-block;width:100%;max-width:640px"><span style="display:block;overflow:hidden;position:relative;padding-bottom:56.25%"><iframe allowfullscreen="" loading="lazy" scrolling="no" style="background:url(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/nnUfPQVOqpw/hqdefault.jpg) 50% 50% / cover;border:0;height:100%;left:0;position:absolute;width:100%" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/nnUfPQVOqpw"></iframe></span></span><br /><a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/nnUfPQVOqpw?fs=1" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/nnUfPQVOqpw?fs=1</a>
Not here, not there, but everywhere - always right before your eyes.
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Offline Michael

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Re: WE'RE STUFFED!!!
« Reply #1449 on: November 01, 2010, 08:55:58 AM »
This article from last week's Guardian, seems to sum up the problem of those who are disaffected with Obama:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2010/oct/24/obama-never-room-for-radical-change

Offline Michael

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Re: WE'RE STUFFED!!!
« Reply #1450 on: November 15, 2010, 06:27:53 PM »
the collapse of society and the failure of capitalism


http://www.youtube.com/v/YIpiXJW3dYE

Jahn

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Re: WE'RE STUFFED!!!
« Reply #1451 on: November 16, 2010, 05:11:28 AM »

"we deal with a series of very serious problems."
 
"Never a time, never a time like this before."
Wishbone Ash

Offline Nichi

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Re: WE'RE STUFFED!!!
« Reply #1452 on: November 16, 2010, 07:52:47 AM »
This is my limit - this is when I can bear no more.

Quote
None Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest: A World Without Birds
by Kate Ravilious

The Independent/UK Press

Scanning the sky with his binoculars, he searches carefully for any sign of movement: the steady beat of a blackbird's wings, the fluttering of a flock of starlings. It has been a week now since he saw the starlings: just four of them flitting from tree to tree, feasting on the autumn berries.

Birds are a real rarity these days. In his boyhood, he recalls, he would watch the acrobatics of entire flocks as they ducked and dived after insects. But now the skies are silent, barring the hum of the odd airplane. Turning back to his fruit and vegetable patch, he continues the laborious task of pollinating the raspberry plants by hand, gently brushing pollen onto the slender stigmas inside the flowers. In the past, bees, wasps, butterflies and flies would have done this job for him; nowadays such insects are likewise a rarity. Farmers instead resort to robot bees to pollinate their crops: tiny motors, encased in fuzzy fabric, which hover from flower to flower.

Will this bleak outlook be a reality for future generations? It is nearly 50 years since Rachel Carson wrote Silent Spring, the book that warned of environmental damage the pesticide DDT was causing. Today, DDT use is banned except in exceptional circumstances, yet we still don't seem to have taken on board Carson's fundamental message.

According to Henk Tennekes, a researcher at the Experimental Toxicology Services in Zutphen, the Netherlands, the threat of DDT has been superseded by a relatively new class of insecticide, known as the neonicotinoids. In his book The Systemic Insecticides: A Disaster in the Making, published this month, Tennekes draws all the evidence together, to make the case that neonicotinoids are causing a catastrophe in the insect world, which is having a knock-on effect for many of our birds.

Already, in many areas, the skies are much quieter than they used to be. All over Europe, many species of bird have suffered a population crash. Spotting a house sparrow, common swift or a flock of starlings used to be unremarkable, but today they are a more of an unusual sight. Since 1977, Britain's house-sparrow population has shrunk by 68 per cent.

The common swift has suffered a 41 per cent fall in numbers since 1994, and the starling 26 per cent. The story is similar for woodland birds (such as the spotted flycatcher, willow tit and wood warbler), and farmland birds (including the northern lapwing, snipe, curlew, redshank and song thrush).

Ornithologists have been trying desperately to work out what is behind these rapid declines. Urban development, hermetically sealed houses and barns, designer gardens and changing farming practices have all been blamed, but exactly why these birds have fallen from the skies is still largely unexplained.

However, Tennekes thinks there may be a simple reason. "The evidence shows that the bird species suffering massive decline since the 1990s rely on insects for their diet," he says. He believes that the insect world is no longer thriving, and that birds that feed on insects are short on food.

So what has happened to all the insects? In the Nineties, a new class of insecticide – the neonicotinoids – was introduced. Beekeepers were the first people to notice a problem, as their bees began to desert their hives and die, a phenomenon known as Colony Collapse Disorder (CCD).

The first cases were in France in 1994, but the epidemic quickly fanned out across Europe, and by 2006 CCD reached the US too. Between 2006 and 2009 one third of American beekeepers reported cases of colony collapse. Aside from the loss of revenue in honey sales, this is worrying news because honey bees are one of the world's most important pollinators, and 35 per cent of agricultural crops rely on pollinators.

As a service, pollination is worth an estimated £440m a year to the UK economy and a staggering $15bn (£9.3bn) to US farmers. And it isn't just the Western world that is affected: in China the lack of bees has become so serious that farmers in some regions are already resorting to pollinating their crops by hand.

Controversy has swirled around the issue, with everything from mobile phones to GM crops being held to blame. The key contenders include parasites, viral and fungal infections, and insecticides.

Last month the problem appeared to have been cracked, when a group of US scientists published a paper in the online journal PLoS One which indicated that CCD was caused by the interaction between a virus, the invertebrate iridescent virus, and a fungus known as Nosema apis (http://ind.pn/9NKzPD).

But since then it has emerged that the study's lead author, Jerry Bromenshenk, has in recent years received a research grant from Bayer Crop Science (a leading manufacturer of neonicotinoid insecticides) to study bee pollination. Bromenshenk has, however, said that no Bayer funds were used in the earlier study. Jeroen van der Sluijs, of the Netherlands' Utrecht University, doesn't doubt Bromenshenk's findings, but says they don't address the key issue: "Previous research has shown that exposure to neonicotinoids makes colonies more prone to the Nosema fungus and virus infections."

If that is so, then neonicotinoid insecticides could be the root cause of the problem. But why are they so much worse than other insecticides?

"Neonicotinoids are revolutionary because they are put inside seeds and permeate the whole plant because they are water-soluble (which is why they are called systemic insecticides). Any insect that feeds on the crop dies," explains Tennekes.

Even small doses can kill. Recent research, carried out on honey bees in the lab, showed that these insecticides build up in the central nervous system of the insect, so that very small doses over a long time period can have a fatal effect. The reason that neonicotinoids can have such a powerful long-term effect is down to the way they work – binding irreversibly to receptors in the central nervous systems of insects.

"An insect has a limited amount of such receptors. The damage is cumulative: with every exposure, more receptors are blocked, until the damage is so big that the insect cannot function any more and dies," explains van der Sluijs.

And unfortunately the robust nature of neonicotinoids means that they can travel far beyond the crops they were used to treat. "Neonicotinoids are water-soluble and mobile in soil. They can be washed out of soils and into surface and groundwater – as we've seen in the Netherlands since 2004. As a result, neonicotinoids are probably readily taken up by wild plants as well, and in this way spread throughout nature, causing irreversible damage to non-target insects," says Tennekes.

Many scientists now agree that there is strong evidence to suggest that neonicotinoid insecticides are damaging to bees. But what about the other insects? Are they being poisoned in the same way? "It is very difficult to prove, but I believe that most insects will have declined since the introduction of neonicotinoids in the 1990s. The problem is that we are not really interested in insects, apart from bees (because we need them) and butterflies (because they are pretty). However, the few insect species that we monitor closely indicate massive decline," says Tennekes.

A new PhD thesis goes some way to backing up Tennekes's claim. This year, Tessa van Dijk at Utrecht University demonstrated a strong link between increased pollution levels and a reduced presence of insects, and especially flying insects, in regions of the Netherlands where residues of neonicotinoids are high.

Others agree that Tennekes may be onto something. "It is a plausible theory that birds that feed on insects, or that feed their chicks on insects only, will suffer from insect decline. But much more data are needed to understand how big the role of neonicotinoids is," says van der Sluijs.

Nigel Raine, a bee expert from Royal Holloway, University of London, concurs. "There is not yet enough evidence to show that neonicotinoid insecticides are environmentally safe in the longer term. But if it can be proved that they are causing a decline in insects, it is reasonable to assume a link to a decline in the bird species that eat insects."

Some argue, however, that the story is unlikely to be so simple. "Bird decline started before neonicotinoids hit the scene. Like so many things, the decline of bird populations is almost certainly multifactorial, involving pesticides, habitat loss and many other variables," says Gard Otis, an entomologist at the University of Guelph in Ontario, Canada.

Nonetheless, some countries have already begun to take action. In 2008 the German, Italian and Slovenian authorities imposed a ban on the use of two types of neonicotinoid insecticides on maize. Meanwhile France has had a ban in place since 1999, on a neonicotinoid insecticide used to dress sunflower seeds.

But for Tennekes the only solution is a global ban. "Neonicotinoids act like chemical carcinogens, for which there are no safe levels of exposure. The message is that we must act quickly and ban these compounds, to avoid a catastrophe," he says.

www.disasterinthemaking.com

http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2010/11/15-0
Not here, not there, but everywhere - always right before your eyes.
~Hsin Hsin Ming

Offline Michael

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Re: WE'RE STUFFED!!!
« Reply #1453 on: November 17, 2010, 08:07:35 PM »
I have heard of this neonicotinoid insecticide issue from other sources also.
Luckily we have lots of birds around our house, but I'm positive it is nothing like the past.

Offline Michael

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Re: WE'RE STUFFED!!!
« Reply #1454 on: November 17, 2010, 08:11:40 PM »
Good article by Paul McGeough, who is one of those intrepid journalists who risk their lives daily in the worlds danger zones.

His primary thesis is that al-Qaeda is winning and the world is grinding under the weight of its fear, idiotic reactions and overwhelming costs.

http://www.theherald.com.au/news/world/world/general/true-toll-of-terrorism-bleeding-the-west/1989917.aspx?storypage=0


 

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