Topic: WE'RE STUFFED!!!

[Jahn]

To know history, one has to know Astrology.

The ages are divided in sub-ages.

When Jesus was born the age of the Pisces started.
The Pisces has a very dark and deep part that manifested in the dark "religious" age.

The Ages is counter clock wise, therefore the Age of the Pisces is followed by the Aquarius Age, which is an Age about enligthment for the masses, and the humanity as a whole.

[Michael]

The Ages is counter clock wise, therefore the Age of the Pisces is followed by the Aquarius Age, which is an Age about enligthment for the masses, and the humanity as a whole.

I don't quite think that spiritual development of mankind necessarily walks hand in hand with the improvements of its material well-being.

This is a very interesting point. Often missed. The word 'enlightenment' has different meanings. When used in a social/historical context:

(the Enlightenment) a European intellectual movement of the late 17th and 18th centuries emphasizing reason and individualism rather than tradition.

It tends to refer to an explosion of cultural enrichment especially characterised by emancipation from superstition and ignorance.

This is very similar to the individual - when a person 'wakes up' and realises the potential of their situation.

But is this 'spiritual development'? Unfortunately reflection on history indicates it does not necessarily relate to true spiritual enlightenment for individuals. Too often the enhanced cultural environment acts as a buffer to spiritual enlightenment. DJ himself spoke of this to CC, when he questioned the value of US culture to the goal of achieving the state of a Man of Knowledge.

A good example is middle-period Tibet. We certainly could not call their society 'enlightened' in the 17th century European way - they were deeply mired in mud from a rational-humanist perspective. And yet from all I have gleaned from all religions, they produced the greatest number of spiritually enlightened individuals of any land/religion. This is because that despite their material depression and ignorance, they upheld an extremely high belief in the primacy of personal spiritual achievement. Their entire culture was dedicated to this in it's focus. Everything I am reading about Buddhist/Bon period is redolent with a wide social acceptance of the ultimate goal of personal enlightenment. Thus quite a few made it, and they are highly venerated.

But I am not personally happy with this - I would like to believe that spiritual development can find greater emphasis where cultural enlightenment exists. There are many examples of this in India (possibly - if we only knew more about those kingdoms) - surely we can have both?

[Builder]

But I am not personally happy with this - I would like to believe that spiritual development can find greater emphasis where cultural enlightenment exists. There are many examples of this in India (possibly - if we only knew more about those kingdoms) - surely we can have both?

"Old school" says that suffering is the best teacher.
What wakes us up in the first place? Pain, suffering.
You have said that on the "long path" we tend to get lost and distracted along the way, and the stairway lacks the last steps. We need the "bird".

Darkness is inevitability - again, you (and many others) have said that the whole game of life on this planet is essentially pointless. It goes like waves - up and down- exploring various aspects of mind/consciousness/awareness manifesting through human bodies in various conditions and states of development.

Being "stuffed" is a normal condition in this infinite game. However we progress, we must end up "stuffed" for the evolution of awareness not to stop.

The extent of being "stuffed" in any particular set of conditions depends on the strength of obstacles to be broken...you have described what Islam is all about as well...

We can ask: what do the people in North Africa and Middle East want?
Welfare? Consumer societies allowing for democratic participation? Is Islam an obstacle on that road? What kind of "stuffing" does it warrant?

Once they reach it, would the consumer society itself (as we see it in the West) be an obstacle on the road of spiritual development? What kind of "stuffing" does it warrant?

[Angela]

And yet from all I have gleaned from all religions, they produced the greatest number of spiritually enlightened individuals of any land/religion. This is because that despite their material depression and ignorance, they upheld an extremely high belief in the primacy of personal spiritual achievement. Their entire culture was dedicated to this in it's focus. Everything I am reading about Buddhist/Bon period is redolent with a wide social acceptance of the ultimate goal of personal enlightenment. Thus quite a few made it, and they are highly venerated.

Michael, who exactly are you referring to in these statements?

[Builder]

Michael, who exactly are you referring to in these statements?

Not that I am Michael.
The statement concerns Tibetan buddhist monks, lamas, naljorpas as well as various bon-buddhists, and possibly bonpas.

[Jahn]

But I am not personally happy with this - I would like to believe that spiritual development can find greater emphasis where cultural enlightenment exists. There are many examples of this in India (possibly - if we only knew more about those kingdoms) - surely we can have both?

Neither am I.

Theocracy is not that common anymore, and I do not count Iran as a theocracy. The Toltec could run such a society, but that is not going to happen the next hundred years. Maybe to late.

[Michael]

Michael, who exactly are you referring to in these statements?

Obviously there isn't hard research data on spiritual achievement rates, but in all the reading I have done across all cultures, Tibet stands out for the volume of accounts of people passing a critical threshold on the spiritual seekers path. India would be next in volume, and I only put Tibet first due to smallness of the base population.

There are some good reasons behind this. Tibet is an extremely harsh climate. It is not a supportive environment for charlatans.

Buddhism had two nifty theoretical inclusions which caused a big shift in the way it was practiced. Mahayana Buddhism introduced the concept of the ultimate emptiness of everything, and also the concept of the reality of both absolute and relative truth. These two tenants allowed for an explosion and tolerance of different practice styles. It meant you didn't have to follow the orthodox monastic path.

Bon is essentially Buddhism, and absorbed much of the practices and theory of these out-ranger Buddhist yogins who wandered into and around Tibet from India and Afghanistan.

The end result was that Tibet's history is littered with accounts of yogins living in caves and far-flung tiny monasteries or retreats. They still do this today. And it's not easy - you try living in a cave without any heating and little food, meditating all day and night through the freezing temperatures.

It is true that the vast bulk of monks know almost nothing about the path and techniques of Buddhist attainment, that is only natural. But even in the main monasteries, there are constant and numerous accounts of 'achieved' lamas. And these come from not just Tibetans, but westerners who have travelled or still travel in Tibet.

The point is, their whole system is geared and focused on personal spiritual attainment. There is little to the side of this, as there is in so many milder and richer climates. There is definitely the side-track of supernatural support for the local population - the priestly role - but that doesn't take much time and is a pleasant pastime for them.

Even when I was in Manali I met a man who was on a trip to the town for supplies - he lived way up in the mountains in a cave doing his practices. He just sat silently watching the crowd behind a small counter with some friends of his, who were the ones who told me about him.

It has become an easy call for Westerners who know nothing of the lives of sadhus, yogins and lamas in India and Tibet, to say they are all charlatans, and that those religions were useless for what they promised. But believe me, you don't need to penetrate very far into them to come across extraordinary individuals, of deeply serious intent and obvious attainment. The main reason Westerners dismiss these avenues of attainment, is that they are too hard, and people are usually seeking an easier path - much like the 'billion'. The US and many other countries found it too hard to get there, so they lopped off a few zeros and bingo! a billion was now much easier to reach. Simple.

[Michael]

How about a possibility of centuries of darkness in impoverished environment, natural disasters, shrinking resources and demographic explosion?

As I said, within the time period before a total meltdown, I doubt this will occur. Primarily due to the fact that forces producing the current upheaval will not go away, and were not around after Luther.

However, beware, watch for the backlash of the power elite in the world. No chance they will walk away from their hard-gained privileges without a fight-to-the-death struggle. Across the globe, their class is under direct threat, and make no mistake, they know this perfectly well.

The first to go will be Al Jazeera, then the open Web and open Mobile communications - for 'good reasons' these will attempt to become 'controlled'. Personally I don't think they can win - it's too late - but I know they will do anything to stall the inevitable. Pity they don't have the power to stall climate change.

What is at stake is vast beyond our comprehension. The entire hierarchy of cards, containing trillions and trillions of dollars is in jeopardy. There is no chance Julian Assange won't be put away for life, along with all who follow him.

Assuming they do not succeed, it is mind-boggling to speculate on what kind of world we are entering. The biggest trap is that this new open world is a gold mine for business - at least those who can adjust to exploit it. And yet it will pull down the old monoliths of business, who profit from control of the status-quo, or rather what I see as the status-quo-ante. So the battle is not just in the popular sphere, but in the very halls of finance itself.

And while we squabble within our tiny human shack, the monster from the deep we have released is rising from the ocean.

We, who value spiritual aspirations, should be watching these movements intensely. Why? Because we need two things:

1. Time. The most precious thing - this path requires sufficient time to mature, and thus to throw it over for some emotional allegiance or sense of injustice, or out of head-in-the-sand ignorance, is insanity.

2. Goad-task. Without a powerful task relevant to our current life-world situation, we stagnate in our own juices. The current upheavals in all areas of our world are exactly what we need to push us over the final line.

Be in the world but not of it.

[Angela]

Michael, who exactly are you referring to in these statements?

Thanks Juhani and Michael. I was actually inquiring about names of specific individuals, for reference.

[Michael]

Thanks Juhani and Michael. I was actually inquiring about names of specific individuals, for reference.

Oh that's easy - obviously I can't give you the names of the hundreds, but can certainly give you some names you can look into... when I get to it.

[Builder]

Having been born into a state that was made in revolution and perished in one, I can only repeat the common wisdom: "Revolutions eat their children".

Copts and Muslims clash in Cairo: 13 dead
Clashes continue in Cairo

[Builder]

...it looks as if Gaddafi is going to have pretty free hands to quell the uprising. He has the qualitative edge - armour, attack aircraft, artillery, navy (and estimated 10-14 tons of mustard gas/Yperite).

The US and Germany do not want to enforce no-fly zone (eventually they'd have to attack ground installations and kill Libyans). France and the UK are eager, but do not want to commit. African and Arab states ought to do the job, but they are reluctant.

Gaddafi is pushing westward relying on his firepower and air assets. Rebels have a fuel for a less than a week, food is running out (Libya imported 70-80% of food anyway) and Libyan air force is keeping ships with food away from the rebel coast.

Gaddafi is sending envoys all over the place - Egypt, EU, Greece, etc.

Looks like another quelled uprising (just to mention the one in Iraq after the First Gulf War in 1990s).

If successful, Gaddafi will certainly be an exmple to follow for the authoritarian regimes in other Arab states.

[Michael]

yep, it's looking very nasty in Libya.

but just to keep the anti high, we now have this massive tidal wave in Japan, and possibly elsewhere.

[Jahn]

If successful, Gaddafi will certainly be an exmple to follow for the authoritarian regimes in other Arab states.

My bet is that Gaddafi will be overthrown , sooner than you'll know.

[Michael]

My bet is that Gaddafi will be overthrown , sooner than you'll know.

Hear we go again, Bosnia revisited.

I do hope you are right Jahn, but it is certainly not looking like that.

Now we have the moral question. What will the free world do as it watches another nation's struggle for freedom?

The USA has been hobbled by George Bush. First they are broke, and secondly the last thing America needs now is to intervene in another Middle East country, or any country for that matter, but definitely not an Arab or Muslim country - for Christ sake, not even the Republicans are that stupid.

Then we have the mighty EU, who can't even tie their shoe laces without falling about in disagreement. So far I've heard the Dutch and the Germans have opted for cowardice. I know the Germans would be worried about money, but not sure why the Dutch are so limp-willied.

The UN won't do anything because Russia and China reserve the right to do exactly the same as Qaddafi.

So we all just sit back and watch a massacre unfold. Libyans are completely on their own in this, while the world wrings its hands in futile mock-anguish.