Author Topic: WE'RE STUFFED!!!  (Read 30841 times)

Offline Michael

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Re: WE'RE STUFFED!!!
« Reply #1800 on: October 25, 2012, 08:01:50 AM »
I have been following this vaguely, and although there is a case that the scientists were irresponsibly sanguine about the risks, nonetheless it appears way over the top to accuse them of manslaughter.

It did however occur to me, that this could be a wake-up call to climate-change scientists, to resist the pressure to water down their forecasts (which some have been doing). Because it is the scientists who will wear the opprobrium for disasters, not the politicians.

Offline Muffin

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Re: WE'RE STUFFED!!!
« Reply #1801 on: October 25, 2012, 10:52:10 AM »
I have been following this vaguely, and although there is a case that the scientists were irresponsibly sanguine about the risks, nonetheless it appears way over the top to accuse them of manslaughter.

There was a man who "predicted" the earthquake using measurements of argon gas emissions, a method which he says he invented, but in reality not used anymore in the mainstream seismology because it's not precise. He was discredited and label as fearmonger. Apparently he also predicted a possible earthquake a few months earlier which didn't happen. The area is a very active seismic area.

It did however occur to me, that this could be a wake-up call to climate-change scientists, to resist the pressure to water down their forecasts (which some have been doing). Because it is the scientists who will wear the opprobrium for disasters, not the politicians.

Or maybe a wake-up call for scientists to think twice before publishing information and estimates, and in general stay away from (italian) politics. Regardless of what the scientists say, politicians will never be taken responsible so for them the safest choice atm is stay out of it.

If I was a seismologist or climate-change scientist, or any natural disaster related field really, I would simply stop publishing papers.
"The result of the manifestation is in exact proportion to the force of striving received from the shock." -Gurdjieff, Belzebub's Tales to his grandson

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Offline Michael

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Re: WE'RE STUFFED!!!
« Reply #1802 on: October 25, 2012, 02:43:18 PM »
If I was a seismologist or climate-change scientist, or any natural disaster related field really, I would simply stop publishing papers.

Most likely in the minds of many scientists.

erik

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Re: WE'RE STUFFED!!!
« Reply #1803 on: October 25, 2012, 03:00:14 PM »
Japanese have been working for decades to find a reliable method for predicting earthquakes. Their desired approach to managing the quakes was to find a reliable method for predicting them and to warn the population as early as possible.

Well, after all the years of study, it turned out that it is impossible to predict an earthquake with a high degree of certainty. These things might occur out of the blue.

It makes the court sentence all the more ridiculous, and brings to my mind Julius Caesar who ordered his men to cut long sticks and to beat up the stormy sea that would not allow them to invade Britain.

Offline Muffin

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Re: WE'RE STUFFED!!!
« Reply #1804 on: October 25, 2012, 07:58:41 PM »
The other side of the coin.

http://www.6aprile.it/featured/2012/10/23/laquila-its-not-a-verdict-for-not-having-foreseen-the-earthquake.html


Quote
But there is a subtext here that brings us back to the role of scientists as communicators and educators, particularly scientists with expertise about issues involving risk. Indeed, this trial sends a message to them all. As much as we need experts to help predict and plan for risk to society in general, we also need experts to help us understand what we need to know to protect ourselves as individuals.

Scientific experts are among the most highly trusted sources of information in society, and as much as they share their expertise about risk with governments, they should also communicate with and educate individuals looking for the same kind of guidance. Small wonder then that the people of l’Aquila are celebrating what is essentially their revenge against those they hoped would help them make informed choices about how to stay safe, experts who – quite innocently, to be sure – let those people down.

Rings true, but then scientists are at the whim of politicians and public opinion. So why we are not angry at the politicians and ourselves for creating and allowing such a system to exist? I feel that most of the indignation around the world is just posturing, it will all fade away.

Besides probably they will never go to jail, due to the Italian judicial system. The whole trial was/is a farce, and the world is falling for it.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2012, 08:01:07 PM by Muffin »
"The result of the manifestation is in exact proportion to the force of striving received from the shock." -Gurdjieff, Belzebub's Tales to his grandson

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Offline Nichi

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Re: WE'RE STUFFED!!!
« Reply #1805 on: October 25, 2012, 10:22:06 PM »
It's one of those damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't scenarios. In the US, the rightist media swoops right down on those who predict disaster (from earthquakes to hurricanes) as "climate extremists" and "conspiracists".
Not here, not there, but everywhere - always right before your eyes.
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erik

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Re: WE'RE STUFFED!!!
« Reply #1806 on: November 13, 2012, 06:03:24 PM »
Poles apart: satellites reveal why Antarctic sea ice grows as Arctic melts

US military satellite data exposes complexity of climate change and impact of changing wind patterns on polar regions

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2012/nov/11/poles-scientists-antarctic-sea-ice

The mystery of the expansion of sea ice around Antarctica, at the same time as global warming is melting swaths of Arctic sea ice, has been solved using data from US military satellites.

Two decades of measurements show that changing wind patterns around Antarctica have caused a small increase in sea ice, the result of cold winds off the continent blowing ice away from the coastline.

"Until now these changes in ice drift were only speculated upon using computer models," said Paul Holland at the British Antarctic Survey. "Our study of direct satellite observations shows the complexity of climate change.

"The Arctic is losing sea ice five times faster than the Antarctic is gaining it, so, on average, the Earth is losing sea ice very quickly. There is no inconsistency between our results and global warming."

The extent of sea ice is of global importance because the bright ice reflects sunlight far more than the ocean that melting uncovers, meaning temperature rises still further.

This summer saw a record low in Arctic sea ice since satellite measurements began 30 years ago. Holland said the changing pattern of sea ice at both poles would also affect global ocean circulation, with unknown effects. He noted that while Antarctic sea ice was growing, the Antarctic ice cap – the glacier and snow pack on the continent – was losing mass, with the fresh water flowing into the ocean.

The research on Antarctic sea ice, published in Nature Geoscience, revealed large regional variations. In places where warm winds blowing from the tropics towards Antarctica had become stronger, sea ice was being lost rapidly. "In some areas, such as the Bellingshausen Sea, the sea ice is being lost as fast as in the Arctic," said Holland.

But in other areas, sea ice was being added as sea water left behind ice being blown away from the coast froze. The net effect is that there has been an extra 17,000 sq km of sea ice each year since 1978 – about a tenth of a percent of the maximum sea ice cover.

Antarctica is a continent surrounded by an ocean, whereas the Arctic is an ocean surrounded by a continent. For that reason, said Holland, sea ice was not able to expand by the same mechanism in the Arctic as at the southern pole, because if winds pushed the ice away from the pole it quickly hit land.

Holland did the research with Ron Kwok at Nasa's jet propulsion laboratory in California, where maps of sea ice movements were created from more than 5m individual daily measurements collected over 19 years. The maps showed, for the first time, the long-term changes in sea ice drift around Antarctica.

Kwok said: "The Antarctic sea ice cover interacts with the global climate system very differently than that of the Arctic, and these results highlight the sensitivity of the Antarctic ice coverage to changes in the strength of the winds around the continent."

Offline Michael

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Re: WE'RE STUFFED!!!
« Reply #1807 on: November 18, 2012, 09:26:58 AM »
A little bit of an update, for those who only get their news here.

"Am I the only person in the world who could not care less if David Petraeus was shagging his biographer?" says Annabel Crabb of the smh, who finished with "Give me the rooters over the rorters, every time."

But a very interesting take by Julia Baird (smh):
"Devoted wife Holly Petraeus has, disgracefully, been blamed for forcing her husband to stray because she committed the worst crime of all: she let herself go....

But the real villain has been the muscular, A-type, "alpha dog" Paula Broadwell, who has been widely cast as a "slut"....

Funny though, no one seems to be asking: Is General Petraeus a slut?...

Broadwell has been tarred as a sexually predatory lunatic who "got her claws into him". The Washington Post said Petraeus had just "let his guard down"."

I gather the rest of the world is shaking their collective head as to why a man, who has been singularly effective in some of the most outrageously difficult wars, should resign from his job just because he had an affair on the side? Surely the US needs men of his calibre at the helm. American morality continues to baffle - it's fine to cause thousands of deaths around the world for financial gain, and murder people left and right in their own country, but woe betide anyone married who has a little sex on the side.


Rash Israel lights Arab Spring powder keg, a great article again by Paul McGeough.

In summary, it goes like this: Lebanon and Jordan are teetering on the brink of meltdown, Syria is in meltdown, Iran is confused about where and who are their buddies. Then the Arab Spring countries are reformatting the political landscape of the whole Islamic world. Turkey is getting caught up in the Syrian catastrophe. Read: the whole Middle East is a complicated and unpredictable tinderbox. So what does Israel do? Will this be seen belatedly as a gigantic mistake.

Gaza: Hamas is in conflict internally. Mishal, their leader in exile - in Doha, is talking of moving on from Hamas, while the leadership in Gaza is ramping up the fight against Israel. But Hamas is in support transition: being Sunni - Iran and Syria, Hamas' traditional supporters, are Shia, and have been murdering Sunnis. But Hamas is receiving top level visits from their new friends, Turkey, Qatar and Egypt.

Israel: elections coming up (surely they wouldn't light this tinderbox for internal partisan political purposes?!), treaty with Egypt thrown into a 'hot' test, intelligence knew of Hamas deploying superior rockets which is why they did the pre-emptive strike on the popular Hamas military leader, Jabari.

Egypt: the new president is talking to the Islamic world publicly about defending Gaza, but privately phoning everyone of significance to find a peaceful resolution. What will Egypt do? No one knows yet, but one thing is certain, Palestine's world political situation has shifted.

US: latest we hear is that Obama is asking Turkey and Egypt to do the negotiation with Hamas to cool things down.

Meanwhile, the battle is escalating daily. And we haven't even said anything about Syria's chemical weapons which are now being eyed by Hezbollah among others. The US military say they would need 75,000 troops on the ground to protect these stockpiles.

Offline Nichi

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Re: WE'RE STUFFED!!!
« Reply #1808 on: November 18, 2012, 06:27:38 PM »
My take on the Broadwell thing is that it's a highly-engineered distractor issue. Distraction from what is the question, of course - could be all the serious matters which you reported in the second half of your post.

I've seen the conspiracy-theorists speculate that Petraeus is being severely discredited (for America does like to be aghast over a sex scandal) in order to dissuade attention from the events in Libya - to which Petraeus was allegedly privy beforehand.

I don't get anything on that, but I do smell a rat with the whole thing. A man in power has an affair - how is that shocking, and who in the hell cares? I refuse to see it as "news". What-is-it-masking is more interesting a question.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2012, 06:32:15 PM by Nichi »
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erik

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Re: WE'RE STUFFED!!!
« Reply #1809 on: November 18, 2012, 07:46:33 PM »
Taliban's comment on Petraeus affair: 'We had a good laugh!'

When the 'War on Terror' was launched the neocons liked to portray themselves/the US as 'Rome'. Disciplined, powerful, determined, ferocious - all from Mars. Europeans were 'whimps from Venus'.

I think, neocons hit the sweet spot with their statement about 'Rome'. But not Rome on the ascent, but of the period of decadent, internally rotting, but still powerful empire. Its main trait was self-infatuation and self-indulgence. Its political elite thought so much more about grabbing power or stopping rivals from usurping the power that they became gradually irrelevant and inadequate with regard to powers outside.

That's the US of today - mind trapped by many spirits and increasingly withdrawn into itself. A bit of 'old seers'of the political world.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2012, 08:32:14 PM by erik »

erik

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Re: WE'RE STUFFED!!!
« Reply #1810 on: November 18, 2012, 07:57:39 PM »
Israel: elections coming up (surely they wouldn't light this tinderbox for internal partisan political purposes?!), treaty with Egypt thrown into a 'hot' test, intelligence knew of Hamas deploying superior rockets which is why they did the pre-emptive strike on the popular Hamas military leader, Jabari.

Fajr-5 rockets can fly up to 75 km and they have been launched at Tel Aviv, Jerusalem and Dimona (Israel's nuclear installation) for the first time. That puts Israel into an unprecedented situation. At the same time, one must remember, that this year Israel endured 800 rockets and missiles before killing Jabari. It is more than half of 1,400 launched from Gaza since January 2009. Thus, Israel's retaliation  was a matter of time.

Besides, Sunni-orientation brings frequently along undesired side-effects.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2012, 08:31:46 PM by erik »

erik

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Re: WE'RE STUFFED!!!
« Reply #1811 on: November 18, 2012, 08:29:43 PM »
One more rock in the direction of 'Romans' of the US origin (and their absolutely incredible lack of understanding of external world):

Israeli flag:

Flag that was seriously considered for Iraq in 2004:

How about that? Such a flag for an Arab, Shia-dominated country next to Iran? Flags of the Middle-East
« Last Edit: November 18, 2012, 09:13:18 PM by erik »

erik

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Re: WE'RE STUFFED!!!
« Reply #1812 on: December 03, 2012, 04:50:39 PM »
Greenland and Antarctica 'have lost four trillion tonnes of ice' in 20 years

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2012/nov/29/greenland-antarctica-4-trillion-tonnes-ice

• Landmark study by global team of scientists published
• Finds melting polar ice has led to 11mm rise in sea level
• Greenland losing ice five times faster than early 1990s

More than 4 trillon tonnes of ice from Greenland and Antarctica has melted in the past 20 years and flowed into the oceans, pushing up sea levels, according to a study that provides the best measure to date of the effect climate change is having on the earth's biggest ice sheets.

The research involved dozens of scientists and 10 satellite missions and presents a disturbing picture of the impact of recent warming at the poles.

The scientists claim the study, published in the journal Science, ends a long-running debate over whether the vast ice sheet covering the Antarctic continent is losing or gaining mass. East Antarctica is gaining some ice, the satellite data shows, but west Antarctica and the Antarctic peninsula is losing twice as much, meaning overall the sheet is melting.

"The estimates are the most reliable to date, and end 20 years of uncertainty of ice mass changes in Antarctica and Greenland," said study leader, Andrew Shepherd, of Leeds University. "There have been 30 different estimates of the sea level rise contribution of Greenland and Antarctica, ranging from an annual 2mm rise to a 0.4mm fall.

"We can state definitively that both Greenland and Antarctica are losing mass, and as [the] temperature goes up we are going to lose more ice."

The study shows the melting of the two giant ice sheets has caused the seas to rise by more than 11mm in 20 years. It also found Greenland is losing ice mass at five times the rate of the early 1990s.

The uncertainties over ice cap melting have made it difficult for scientists to predict sea level rise. But Prof Richard Alley, of Penn State University, US, who was not involved in the study, said: "This project is a spectacular achievement. The data will support essential testing of predictive models, and will lead to a better understanding of how sea level change may depend on the human decisions that influence global temperatures." Rising sea level is one of the greatest long-term threats posed by climate change, threatening low-lying cities and increasing the damage wrought by hurricanes and typhoons.

The study combined satellite measurements of the ice caps' heights from laser and radar instruments with measurements of the small changes in gravity caused by ice loss. The data was analysed ensuring the same regions and time periods were compared, as well as using the consistent estimates of the rebound that land experiences when heavy ice sheets start to melt.

The 11mm sea level rise caused by melting in Greenland and Antarctica makes up about a fifth of the total rise in the oceans since 1992, but the increasing rate of melting means the ice caps' contribution today is about two-fifths. The other contributions to rising seas are the expansion of water as it warms and a smaller contribution from the melting of ice caps and glaciers outside the poles. A study in February found that, over the past decade at least, the Himalayas had on average lost no ice.

Another recent study showed the changes to winds caused by global warming meant that sea ice – whose melting does not add to sea level rise – was very slightly increasing around Antarctica, at the same time as rapidly vanishing in the Arctic.

Ian Joughin, another member of the team, of University of Washington, Seattle, said: "Climate change is likely to accelerate ice loss greatly." He added significant challenges remained in predicting ice melting, due to the complexity of the interactions between the warming air and oceans and the great ice sheets and glaciers. "In Greenland, we are seeing really dramatic losses in ice, but it is still uncertain if it will slow, stay the same or accelerate further."

• One of the summary paragraphs introducing this article mistakenly stated the melting of Greenland and Antarctic has caused 11m of sea level rise. This has been corrected to 11mm.

erik

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Re: WE'RE STUFFED!!!
« Reply #1813 on: December 03, 2012, 04:57:32 PM »
Turkey requested Nato missile defences over Syria chemical weapons fears

Turkish officials say they have evidence Assad regime could resort to ballistic missiles if air campaign against rebels fails

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/dec/02/turkey-syria-chemical-weapons-fears

A request by Turkey for Nato Patriot missile defences to be deployed on its territory followed intelligence that the Syrian government was contemplating the use of missiles, possibly with chemical warheads, Turkish officials have told the Guardian.

The officials said they had credible evidence that if the Syrian government's aerial bombardment against opposition-held areas failed to hold the rebels back, Bashar al-Assad's regime might resort to missiles and chemical weapons in a desperate last effort to survive.

The Turks believe that the regime's Soviet-era Scuds and North Korean SS-21 missiles would be aimed principally at opposition areas but could easily stray across the border, as Syrian army artillery shells and mortars have done.

A missile, especially with a chemical warhead, would represent a far greater threat to Turkish border communities, so Ankara decided last month to ask Nato to supply Patriot missile defence systems, which can spot an incoming missile and intercept it.

"We have intelligence from different sources that the Syrians will use ballistic missiles and chemical warheads," a senior Turkish official said. "First they sent the infantry in against the rebels and they lost a lot of men, and many changed sides. Then they sent in the tanks, and they were taken out by anti-tank missiles. So now it's air power. If that fails it will be missiles, perhaps with chemical warheads. That is why we asked Nato for protection."

The New York Times reported that western intelligence officials had spotted new signs of activity around Syrian military sites where chemical weapons are stored. A senior US official was quoted as saying: "[T]hey're doing some things that suggest they intend to use the weapons. It's not just moving stuff around. These are different kind of activities."

The Syrian regime is believed to have stocks of mustard gas, sarin nerve gas and possibly VX, another nerve agent. Western governments have warned Assad that any use of these weapons would trigger direct military intervention against him. So far, western officials say there are no signs of the regime taking the final steps of preparing chemical artillery shells, missiles or aircraft bombs for use. The deployment of Dutch and German Patriot systems is due to be voted on by those countries' parliaments this week, and Turkish diplomats expect it to be approved. The same two countries supplied the launchers and missiles the last time Patriots were deployed in Turkey, in 2003 during the Iraq war.

In recent days the rebel Free Syrian Army has succeeded in shooting down Syrian government aircraft with shoulder-launched anti-aircraft missiles, in a potential turning point, but Turkey still expects a protracted struggle for the upper hand in the bloody civil war, in which it estimates 50,000 people have died.

Turkish officials still believe the best chance of a breakthrough that would cut short the conflict would be for Russia to withdraw its backing for Assad, forcing the Syrian president, his family and immediate entourage into exile, and thereby removing the most serious obstacle to talks between the opposition and the government.

Russia has blocked any punitive UN security council measures and has supplied the Syrian regime with arms and economic support. In recent weeks it is reported to have flown in tonnes of freshly printed banknotes to allow Damascus to pay its soldiers. But Turkish officials believe Russian backing for the Syrian leader is finally fading. "Privately they have been telling us that they accept he is going to go," a senior official said.

The Russian president, Vladimir Putin, is expected to fly to Turkey on Monday for bilateral talks with the Turkish prime minister, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, in which Erdogan will keep up the pressure for the Russians to pull the plug on their closest Middle East ally. "We are asking the Russians whether or not they want to help build a stable Syria after Assad," a Turkish official said.

A regional peace initiative launched by Egypt's president, Mohamed Morsi, in August, involving Egypt, Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Iran, foundered on Saudi objections to Iranian involvement. Both Egypt and Turkey, however, believe that Iran has to be engaged in the search for a peace deal as it is Assad's only regional ally and an important source of weapons.

Turkey has sustained the effort by organising three sets of trilateral talks: Turkey, Iran and Egypt, whose leaders met in Islamabad late last month to discuss the Syrian crisis; Turkey, Iran and Russia; and Turkey, Egypt and Saudi Arabia. Ankara believes that all those relationships will be vital in rebuilding Syria after the conflict, but that Russia's role will be decisive in bringing it to an end.

erik

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Re: WE'RE STUFFED!!!
« Reply #1814 on: December 06, 2012, 07:36:51 PM »
'Syrian army prepared to use chemical weapons'
By JPOST.COM STAFF, REUTERS
12/06/2012 04:05

http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=294801

US officials tell NBC News Syrian army have loaded deadly nerve gas onto aerial bombs, are awaiting Assad's orders to drop them.

The Syrian military is prepared to use chemical weapons against its own people and is awaiting final orders from Syrian president Bashar Assad, NBC News reported Wednesday, citing US officials.

The officials told NBC News that "the army had loaded precursor chemicals for sarin, a deadly nerve gas, onto aerial bombs that could be dropped onto the Syrian people from dozens of fighter-bombers."
According to the report, the officials added that the sarin bombs hadn't yet been loaded onto planed, but if Assad gives the green light, "there's little the outside world can do to stop it."

On Tuesday the head of NATO, asked about possible use of chemical weapons by the Syrian government, said that any such act would provoke an immediate international response.

"The possible use of chemical weapons would be completely unacceptable for the whole international community," NATO Secretary-General Anders Fogh Rasmussen told reporters. "If anybody resorts to these terrible weapons, then I would expect an immediate reaction from the international community," he said.

Rasmussen's statement followed a similar warning by US President Barack Obama to Assad on Monday not to use chemical weapons against Syrian opposition forces, saying there would be consequences if he were to do so.

"I want to make it absolutely clear to Assad and those under his command: The world is watching," Obama said in a speech to a gathering of biological, chemical and nuclear weapons proliferation experts. "The use of chemical weapons is and would be totally unacceptable and if you make the tragic mistake of using these weapons, there will be consequences and you will be held accountable," Obama said.

He did not say how the United States might respond, but White House spokesman Jay Carney said earlier that "contingency planning" was under way when asked whether the use of military force was an option. As Assad's government has shown signs of increasing strain in response to recent advances made by the rebels, Carney said the United States has grown concerned that the Syrian president might be considering the use of chemical weapons. This would, Carney said, "cross a red line for the United States."

Some US Republicans have been critical of the Obama administration's response to the Syrian crisis as thousands of people have been killed during the country's civil war. During the presidential campaign, Obama's Republican challenger, Mitt Romney, said the United States should facilitate the arming of Syrian rebels, a step Obama has not taken. Obama said in his speech on Monday that the United States would continue to support the legitimate aspirations of the Syrian people, engaging with the opposition and providing them with humanitarian aid. He said his goal is a transition in Syria to a country that is free of Assad.

The Atlantic reported Monday that Israel asked Jordan on a number of occasions for "permission" to bomb Syrian chemical weapons sites, citing intelligence sources in both countries.

According to the report, Jordan turned down requests a number of times in the past two months, saying "the time was not right." Jordan is reportedly wary of allowing Israel to bomb the sites in Syria, fearing a military response on Jordanian territory. "A number of sites are not far from the border," the report quoted a foreign source as saying.

 

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