Topic: The nature of the double?

[Quantum Shaman]

"What is the nature of the double that would give it the ability to survive with cohesion following the death of the human body?  If it's a projection of the self - and both you & Orlando have maintained at the mortal human is the source of the double, not the other way around - then what remains to project the double when the mortal human dies?"

At a recent get-together, that question was posed by a good friend and advanced warrior who has been on the path for many years.  My intent for posing the question here is to generate some discussion on the subject.  I know how *I* would answer that question (and will do so later) but that's not important.  I'd like to know how others here at Soma would answer it - because ultimately, for anyone who subscribes to the notion of the double at all - it is what I would consider to be THE most important question one could ask.

And, in my opinion, understanding the double's workings is the first step toward awakening inside the double.

What do you think?

D

[Firestarter]

One of the things which came to mind, D, was that where we're going after we die, is that duality, (I and Other) wouldnt be an issue. There we would be in a nondual state so there would be no need to project the double anymore. Course, my mind has tried to resolve this. "What then?" Seems kinda lonely. But all I know is, I work on the work with the double now, and I learn along the way what that entails, to keep the double strong enough to survive the journey.

But yes, duality wouldnt be an issue. I would say in one capacity we are One, in that realm.

[daphne]

Strangely enough, I have been thinking on the very same topic myself. Last night, I couldn't fall asleep, so I let my mind wonder around the topic. Can't say I have any answers for myself, though it seems to me that while the mortal self does project the double, and consciousness is of the mortal self, the double being "out of time", also projects the mortal self through a different level of consciousnessto that of the mortal self.
I wondered what it would be like to retain cohesion after death. That led me to wondering about dreams and dreaming; they are all so intertwined.
During the day, I constantly review the idea that I am dreaming, and look around to try and establish what may be 'different' here from my night dreams. Sometimes I remember my dreams clearly, at other times I do not. It's a matter of where my focal awareness is, I suppose. Waking up from dreams, it seems as if no time passed at all, and yet, in waking life, I am aware of time, or what I describe as 'time passing'.  I remember waking up from dreams that were so cool, I wanted to get back into them, and I wonder if this is what I feel about this life. There are elements of this dream that I do not want to forget, and yet, who knows?

I sometimes wonder if having children is some sort of impediment to my 'type' of spiritual path. In many paths it's not, yet sometimes I feel this attachment to my dream elements may hinder me in some way. Then I think about the me that was over the years, That me is still here in me, and yet has moved on in expereince; not lost, rather integrated.

The main point of my ramble here is that I began to see the paradox of consciousness as an evolutionary trend, and yet also an aspect of the double. a mirror to what we call physicality.

The other thing I was thinking on was the Dreamer. I see my double as the individual Dreamer, and so this back and forth connection of consciousness.

[Firestarter]

The main point of my ramble here  is that I began to see the paradox of consciousness as an evolutionary trend, and yet also an aspect of the double. a mirror to what we call physicality.

Thats a good observation Daph. I see it the same way. Its part of the evolution of consciousness itself. And the double evolves from the dreaming mind. We, work in our lives, to strengthen that dreaming ability, so we can cross thru. Many folks who say, dont meditate, dont shut off the 'noise,' and arent clear, havent developed solid astrals say at the second attn, wont be able to do squat with the double. Its our secret way out, but not a 'bulletproof' way either tho. We've still got to give rise to spirit to pull it thru.

[Quantum Shaman]

"What is the nature of the double that would give it the ability to survive with cohesion following the death of the human body?  If it's a projection of the self - and both you & Orlando have maintained at the mortal human is the source of the double, not the other way around - then what remains to project the double when the mortal human dies?"

As I see it...  it comes down to what amounts to fields of energy that become "independent" of their original source. 

"The self dreams the double. Once it has learned to dream the double, the self arrives at this weird crossroad and a moment comes when one realizes that it is the double who dreams the self. Your double is dreaming you. No one knows how it happens. We only know that it does happen. That's the mystery of us as luminous beings. You can awaken in either one. "  (don Juan, TALES OF POWER)

When CC wrote these words, I think he was hinting at something for which language didn't really exist at the time to adequately explain.  With the coming of quantum, it's now possible to translate some of this into more "scientific" terms.

The self dreams the double - i.e., the mortal human projects an energetic/electromagnetic field outside herself.

Once it has learned to dream the double, the self arrives at this weird crossroad and a moment comes when one realizes that it is the double who dreams the self = Quantumly speaking, it is possible for one field to create another, and for those two fields to separate like a cell dividing.  They are identical in construct, yet their experiences will be different.  To say the double is dreaming the self is to say that the double takes on "sentience" and begins to instruct or teach the mortal self HOW to evolve beyond its mortal existence.

"You can awaken in either one."  That's the trick - learning to open our eyes inside the immortal double rather than just getting perpetually stuck inside the mortal self.  OTOH, the mortal self is rather like a luminous cocoon in which we gestate while we are in the process of evolving.  That gestation is called "life" - and how we live it (whether we grow or stagnate) is going to determine how we will face the eagle.

So when my friend asked the question(s) above, my seeing is that the self projects the double initially, and then the two become (seemingly, but not really) "independent" of one another.  Through gnosis, the double may instruct/guide the mortal self, and since the two are an energetic match (ergo: double), it stands to reason that the mortal self, in creating an independent electromagnetic (energetic) field, has also created what may amount to a receptacle of consciousness for when death comes to the body. 

We are a duality which is, ultimately, a singularity.  When we leave this life, it is altogether possible that that singularity may project an aspect of itself into the NEXT evolution... and so the cycle continues.

That's just how I've come to see it.

[Firestarter]

We are a duality which is, ultimately, a singularity.  When we leave this life, it is altogether possible that that singularity may project an aspect of itself into the NEXT evolution... and so the cycle continues.

Della, hopefully this doesnt sound like a stupid question, cause I do see we would eventually arrive at a nondual state - esp during the crossover point - make that threshhold. Now say, once we've made it past the eagle, are you saying for next evolution, we go back to nondual again?

This could be an endless dance on the endless knot of existence 

[Quantum Shaman]

Della, hopefully this doesnt sound like a stupid question, cause I do see we would eventually arrive at a nondual state - esp during the crossover point - make that threshhold. Now say, once we've made it past the eagle, are you saying for next evolution, we go back to nondual again?

This could be an endless dance on the endless knot of existence 

Good point - and I don't have any pat answer.  My personal "feeling" on the matter is that if we DO enter into the next phase of evolution and become "non-dual" again, it will be at a higher level than what we can wrap our minds around while still here in mortal form.  Orlando has insisted from day one that - for as far into eternity/infinity as he can see - there is no "stopping point" of our evolution.  Each step is leading to the next.  We don't really appear to reach that "ultimate nirvana" place where we float around in/on a cloud.  *heh*  Or, more precisely, we CAN experience that state of utter bliss/nirvana, but it isn't the end.

When I go into meditation on it, it all seems to come down to the everlasting journey.  Not a journey through which we become tired or bored, but a journey of eternal adventure, new love, higher and higher states of awareness.

The nature of eternity & infinity is that they don't end.  I think that's been Orlando's point - we don't die and go to heaven to sit on our butts for the rest of eternity (as if there could be a "rest of").  *LOL*  Inhabiting our totality, we move "onward" - wherever or whatever that might be.  No way to know.  And so the journey goes...

[Firestarter]

Yeah thats pretty much been my seeing as well, that this journey is an endless one, which can lead to a final resting stop (nirvana), like the buddha, he became One with the Source, and now its about leading others to nirvana (which can be achieved in a lifetime), but course if its achieved, the journey can end. Unless one chooses to return. But what about those who want to go on to something different? There must be - as far as I can see - an infinite amount of choices laid out for us. But of course, I think its gonna have to do with how much effort we put into this life, as each life is determined by the last one.

But I could see it happening, going from dual to nondual to dual to nondual to prepare for each step over and over. It wouldnt surprise me, a joy those wacky doubles must have to lead us along like that! (dont they just piss you off sometimes)?

[Quantum Shaman]

Yeah thats pretty much been my seeing as well, that this journey is an endless one, which can lead to a final resting stop (nirvana), like the buddha, he became One with the Source, and now its about leading others to nirvana (which can be achieved in a lifetime), but course if its achieved, the journey can end. Unless one chooses to return. But what about those who want to go on to something different? There must be - as far as I can see - an infinite amount of choices laid out for us. But of course, I think its gonna have to do with how much effort we put into this life, as each life is determined by the last one.

But I could see it happening, going from dual to nondual to dual to nondual to prepare for each step over and over. It wouldnt surprise me, a joy those wacky doubles must have to lead us along like that! (dont they just piss you off sometimes)?

I think you're right that we can go on to something different - Orlando has said so since I first began working with him, and my own experiences have pointed in that direction as well. When we think in terms of "nirvana" or "heaven", I think that's our humanform selves trying to wrap their minds around the infinite - it's as far as we can go from this side of the bridge, but once on the other side, I think we will be able to see further... and on to the next bridge... and so on. 

From the assemblage point of our totality (the super-position of the assemblage point), it seems reasonable to consider that we will be able to experience All Things or No Thing - simultaneously, through as many or as few lenses (selves) as we might choose.  In fact, there's some strong evidence to suggest that's what we're doing right now - experiencing a humanform lifetime while the double is dreaming the self.

[Firestarter]

I think you're right that we can go on to something different - Orlando has said so since I first began working with him, and my own experiences have pointed in that direction as well. When we think in terms of "nirvana" or "heaven", I think that's our humanform selves trying to wrap their minds around the infinite - it's as far as we can go from this side of the bridge, but once on the other side, I think we will be able to see further... and on to the next bridge... and so on. 

From the assemblage point of our totality (the super-position of the assemblage point), it seems reasonable to consider that we will be able to experience All Things or No Thing - simultaneously, through as many or as few lenses (selves) as we might choose.  In fact, there's some strong evidence to suggest that's what we're doing right now - experiencing a humanform lifetime while the double is dreaming the self.

Right, quantum theory and the holographic universe. One of my favorite books as well. I think that we do have the ability to also, experience multiple 'selves,' and its very closely tied to the Hindu version of Indras net. The dreamer is dreaming, yet there's multiple, parallel worlds we can wake up into, and experience,

the trick is to be able to shift into them at a given time. Thats the magic, a sorcerer's trick I could probably go on about parallel realities on this topic as well. Something has always fascinated me about that paradigm, that we could be existing - even past lives - simultaneously. And I wonder if possible that we can even move 'backward' in our lives if we chose to. Since all lives could be potentially going on at once, say I exit this life, but I want to 'relive' another life. If all lives are simultaneously happening, at once, why couldnt I? This also gives a lot of room for the double to emerge, as well, from another life to guide us in some mysterious way.

[Quantum Shaman]

Right, quantum theory and the holographic universe. One of my favorite books as well. I think that we do have the ability to also, experience multiple 'selves,' and its very closely tied to the Hindu version of Indras net. The dreamer is dreaming, yet there's multiple, parallel worlds we can wake up into, and experience,

the trick is to be able to shift into them at a given time. Thats the magic, a sorcerer's trick I could probably go on about parallel realities on this topic as well. Something has always fascinated me about that paradigm, that we could be existing - even past lives - simultaneously. And I wonder if possible that we can even move 'backward' in our lives if we chose to. Since all lives could be potentially going on at once, say I exit this life, but I want to 'relive' another life. If all lives are simultaneously happening, at once, why couldnt I? This also gives a lot of room for the double to emerge, as well, from another life to guide us in some mysterious way.

Well, my own experience based on years of research & Dreaming, has more or less proven (to me) that "past lives" would be more accurately described as "parallel lives" - i.e., movements of the double within the Now.  Recently, somebody asked said, "Yeah, but WTF does that mean, Della? - movements of the double within the now?"

The way I have experienced it (both through Dreaming and through working with Orlando to better understand the experiences themselves) is that the double is not confined by the idea of linear time - and, in fact, the quantum universe itself isn't either.  Linear time is largely a humanform concept that enables us to have "filters" which provide us with a (seemingly) 1,2,3 experience (day one, day two, day three).  But in the quantum universe, there is no separation of 1,2,3 - they all exist simultaneously within the realm of all possibility - where one of the first laws of quantum physics arises:  "All things exist within the realm of possibility, but only some things will be forced to go through the motions of actually occurring."

So, as I've experienced it & Orlando has explained it, what this boils down to in practicality is that your double is entirely free - right now - to to *be* in any manifestation which might have value to your current life situation.  To give a personal example, I have had extremely powerful Dreamings regarding a parallel life in which myself and a companion were some manner of Templars, who later ended up being betrayed from within the order, lured under false pretenses into a large church somewhere in England, and executed.  For several years, this Dreaming made no sense to me as Della, because I've never had any connection to, nor any particular interest in that entire aspect of history.  Just not on my wavelength.  But over time, I've come to see that this parallel life was a huge lesson in *seeing* - because throughout the Dreaming, the character I was playing (a male, high ranking in the Templar organization) KNEW he was being set up, but refused to believe it, up until that last moment when the doors of the church slammed & locked, and he found himself face to face with his would-be executioners. 

Now... I do not think for a moment that this event occurred in linear time.  It occurred OUTSIDE of time - and that's the beauty of the double.  It can select scenarios that teach tremendous life lessons without ever having to place our mortal/human life in jeopardy.  And, not to mention, since the double is not confined by the limits of time, it can also choose dozens, hundreds, even thousands of these experiences - which we linear-bound humans have traditionally thought of as "past lives", but which are more likely the quantum machinations of our own double operating as our guide/teacher in the eternal Now.

So... point is simply that as we develop greater communication with our doubles, they are able to provide us with an infinitude of experience, but it's up to us to decipher it through gnosis, dreaming, meditation, etc.  It's what is literally meant by "The double is dreaming you."  While we are sitting at our desks and trudging through our ordinary lives, our doubles are off on grand adventures or sifting through vast libraries of experience in order to provide us with the Knowledge we need to evolve.

Of course, the sorcerer's trick is learning how to access that Knowledge and bring it into sufficient awareness to at least implement it in our daily lives.  What I've found is that gnosis (silent knowing) is the best tool for that purpose, but also learning to "let go and allow the impossible."  As long as we are clinging to what we THINK we know, we leave no room for any expansion of awareness.

Over at TSW, you mentioned spirit and what it is.  I replied that I think it is at least partially what George Lucas referred to as "The Force" in the STAR WARS movies.  Not surprisingly, that also ties in to this conversation - since spirit is "the force" through which gnosis occurs.  And, more precisely, spirit is the vehicle through which we channel "the force" in our daily lives - it's what tells us to turn or stop or jump sideways or simply keep walking in a straight line... and in hindsight, we turn and realize that without that connection to "the force" we never would have made it through childhood.

Live in spirit.  Allow the impossible.  Use the force.  Transcend the matrix.  Open yourself to the assemblage point of the double.

All of these things are saying the same thing, and these are really the only things that matter.  The rest - all this fluff and angst and suffering - is nothing more than an illusion within the dream of the mortal self.

Rising above it (quite literally) is the goal of a wo/man of Knowledge.  Be the dreamer, not the dream. 

Loveyou,
D

[Firestarter]

Well, my own experience based on years of research & Dreaming, has more or less proven (to me) that "past lives" would be more accurately described as "parallel lives" - i.e., movements of the double within the Now.  Recently, somebody asked said, "Yeah, but WTF does that mean, Della? - movements of the double within the now?"

The way I have experienced it (both through Dreaming and through working with Orlando to better understand the experiences themselves) is that the double is not confined by the idea of linear time - and, in fact, the quantum universe itself isn't either.  Linear time is largely a humanform concept that enables us to have "filters" which provide us with a (seemingly) 1,2,3 experience (day one, day two, day three).  But in the quantum universe, there is no separation of 1,2,3 - they all exist simultaneously within the realm of all possibility - where one of the first laws of quantum physics arises:  "All things exist within the realm of possibility, but only some things will be forced to go through the motions of actually occurring."

Right, and this is my conclusion of past life experiences. The other thing, we may not necessarily 'own' the past life entirely. What I mean by that is, if we did get 'snuffed out' by the eagle each life, in some manner, what we could be experiencing is a mishmash of consciousness. For example, Joe X who was Joe X in a life, I have 'pieces' or fragments of his consciousness in me. At least I believe it to be that way, if all is correct, and consciousness - as broad and difficult to define as this is - goes drops into the ocean of it. I dont really worry about past lives myself either, unless like you said, double has value in showing me something which will help me along the way.

So, as I've experienced it & Orlando has explained it, what this boils down to in practicality is that your double is entirely free - right now - to to *be* in any manifestation which might have value to your current life situation.  To give a personal example, I have had extremely powerful Dreamings regarding a parallel life in which myself and a companion were some manner of Templars, who later ended up being betrayed from within the order, lured under false pretenses into a large church somewhere in England, and executed.  For several years, this Dreaming made no sense to me as Della, because I've never had any connection to, nor any particular interest in that entire aspect of history.  Just not on my wavelength.  But over time, I've come to see that this parallel life was a huge lesson in *seeing* - because throughout the Dreaming, the character I was playing (a male, high ranking in the Templar organization) KNEW he was being set up, but refused to believe it, up until that last moment when the doors of the church slammed & locked, and he found himself face to face with his would-be executioners. 

Thats a scary past life one too. Esp the level of betrayal. Maybe Orlando showed it to show that, but also the 'program' too cause, the Templars had quite a handle on some true things and were silenced for it.

Now... I do not think for a moment that this event occurred in linear time.  It occurred OUTSIDE of time - and that's the beauty of the double.  It can select scenarios that teach tremendous life lessons without ever having to place our mortal/human life in jeopardy.  And, not to mention, since the double is not confined by the limits of time, it can also choose dozens, hundreds, even thousands of these experiences - which we linear-bound humans have traditionally thought of as "past lives", but which are more likely the quantum machinations of our own double operating as our guide/teacher in the eternal Now.

I have to admit though, while I know quantum theory supports going out of the boundaries of time, or writes the whole 'concept' of time on a whole different map in itself, it is very difficult for my mind to wrap around, the concept of being outside the boundary. I know the double can do this. Ive seen it done. It is just a very difficult thing still for my mind to grasp, but that program of time is a difficult one cause its so rooted in me, I gather.

So... point is simply that as we develop greater communication with our doubles, they are able to provide us with an infinitude of experience, but it's up to us to decipher it through gnosis, dreaming, meditation, etc.  It's what is literally meant by "The double is dreaming you."  While we are sitting at our desks and trudging through our ordinary lives, our doubles are off on grand adventures or sifting through vast libraries of experience in order to provide us with the Knowledge we need to evolve.

Of course, the sorcerer's trick is learning how to access that Knowledge and bring it into sufficient awareness to at least implement it in our daily lives.  What I've found is that gnosis (silent knowing) is the best tool for that purpose, but also learning to "let go and allow the impossible."  As long as we are clinging to what we THINK we know, we leave no room for any expansion of awareness.

Over at TSW, you mentioned spirit and what it is.  I replied that I think it is at least partially what George Lucas referred to as "The Force" in the STAR WARS movies.  Not surprisingly, that also ties in to this conversation - since spirit is "the force" through which gnosis occurs.  And, more precisely, spirit is the vehicle through which we channel "the force" in our daily lives - it's what tells us to turn or stop or jump sideways or simply keep walking in a straight line... and in hindsight, we turn and realize that without that connection to "the force" we never would have made it through childhood.

Live in spirit.  Allow the impossible.  Use the force.  Transcend the matrix.  Open yourself to the assemblage point of the double.

All of these things are saying the same thing, and these are really the only things that matter.  The rest - all this fluff and angst and suffering - is nothing more than an illusion within the dream of the mortal self.

Rising above it (quite literally) is the goal of a wo/man of Knowledge.  Be the dreamer, not the dream. 

Loveyou,
D

Thats some good advise, be the dreamer, not the dreamed. Dont just be carried like a leaf on the wind. Thats one thing, the double, once created, doesnt allow for that. Course they have a stake in the survival game, but its up to us to learn from them and pay attn to what they say.

Good topic D, thanks!

[Firestarter]

It is a great fortune to have you here amongst us Della. Especially for me that do not participate in any other forum where you also might make excellent posts about your experiences, insights and wisdom.

Thank you.

  j.m.r
   .~.

 

[Quantum Shaman]

It is a great fortune to have you here amongst us Della. Especially for me that do not participate in any other forum where you also might make excellent posts about your experiences, insights and wisdom.

Thank you.

  j.m.r
   .~.

Thanks, Jahn! 

[erik]

To give a personal example, I have had extremely powerful Dreamings regarding a parallel life in which myself and a companion were some manner of Templars, who later ended up being betrayed from within the order, lured under false pretenses into a large church somewhere in England, and executed.  For several years, this Dreaming made no sense to me as Della, because I've never had any connection to, nor any particular interest in that entire aspect of history.  Just not on my wavelength.  But over time, I've come to see that this parallel life was a huge lesson in *seeing* - because throughout the Dreaming, the character I was playing (a male, high ranking in the Templar organization) KNEW he was being set up, but refused to believe it, up until that last moment when the doors of the church slammed & locked, and he found himself face to face with his would-be executioners.

Templars...interesting that they popped up - a while ago somebody even offered me a membership in their Order. There have been interesting developments regarding them: http://restlesssoma.com.au/soma/index.php?topic=2407.0