Author Topic: Ghosts, Entities, Allies  (Read 704 times)

niamhspark

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Re: Ghosts, Entities, Allies
« Reply #30 on: November 26, 2006, 03:57:44 AM »
P.S. Daphne, that image reminds me of the chesire cat :)

nichi

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Re: Ghosts, Entities, Allies
« Reply #31 on: November 26, 2006, 04:22:00 AM »
Ellen, far be it from me to defend Kris to you -- I don't even know him.

But I will say this --- I'd probably question you or him if "rules" were drawn up about the realm of spirit. The hierarchies are what made me disenchanted with spiritualism. No matter how many angelic bands and levels one wants to identify in one's path, it still will come down to the healing of the heart, the clearing of the clutter. The cleansing of the channel.

Everyone has their particular focus or specialty --- the gift that will come with them up the mountain.

It just seems to me that the point of the piece was to not become so dazzled, and even deceived, by the beings we might meet, that we stop work on self. That seems fair, eh?

Offline daphne

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Re: Ghosts, Entities, Allies
« Reply #32 on: November 26, 2006, 04:31:27 AM »
P.S. Daphne, that image reminds me of the chesire cat :)

heh..   :D
"The compulsion to possess and hold on to things is not unique. Everyone who wants to follow the warrior's path has to rid himself of this fixation in order not to focus our dreaming body on the weak face of the second attention." - The Eagle's Gift

Offline daphne

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Re: Ghosts, Entities, Allies
« Reply #33 on: November 26, 2006, 04:42:50 AM »
It just seems to me that the point of the piece was to not become so dazzled, and even deceived, by the beings we might meet, that we stop work on self.

Yes, pretty much what I got from it too. There was a time in my journey when I explored what "spiritually evolved" meant for me - couldn't help it really.. it's a term that one comes across all the time in so many paths..  also what frequency/vibration/hierarchies.. etc etc all meant - was a good exploration. On the one hand was keeping self-importance in check, and on the other being careful to not go too much the other way (self-depreciation) - kind of like a tightrope walk to the merging of the mystic and occultist within me. I found the "toltec" ways rather resonant, with a pinch of zen and a dash of humour!
"The compulsion to possess and hold on to things is not unique. Everyone who wants to follow the warrior's path has to rid himself of this fixation in order not to focus our dreaming body on the weak face of the second attention." - The Eagle's Gift

Offline Nick

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Re: Ghosts, Entities, Allies
« Reply #34 on: November 26, 2006, 05:38:45 AM »
Just because I see it as I do doesn't mean I cannot see. That's rude and
presumptuous. I can see, and have seen, plenty. I'm not saying I've seen enough, but seen plenty.

Quote

I understand there are things I will question, like I said, it keeps me sane to do so. To insinuate I lack the ability to see, because I do operate this way, is wrong.

Course, I don't expect anyone to see that, anytime soon.

I'll keep questioning testimonies, and teachers, and others, regardless.

Let me clear up my own motivations in asking you, by stating that I have no intention of steering you away from questioning. I love the questioning path. Some seem to see the path of questioning, and further my interest in scientific spirituality as a kind of detour or something. I listen to their concerns as they are valuable to me. But in my own work this path of questioning and scrutiny too keeps me sane.

For me one of the most useful things I can do is question, use my reason, and abide by what I am coming to call my spiritual common sense.

We each walk our own path and hopefully we all respect that. I would hate to see you stop questioning, as I see the value in doing so.

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I'm very leery of these hierarchial beliefs of raising frequencies and being above others as it is. There is a certain 'self-importance,' even to fall into believing *I*, me and my *Self* are on a higher frequency than others.

It is funny how we can see the idea of being above someone or something as a self important thing. Yet, natural laws show that one thing can be higher than another without being more important. Is Kris really talking about being more important than others or is he just talking about being a high frequency than some? My computer may have certain parts in it that electrically vibrate at a higher frequency, but are they more valuable than the rest of the machine, no of course not. One theory even dictates that for one thing to go up in frequency another must go down, a kind of equivalent exchange.
What is valuable to one is not to another, it is subjective in that sense and what is truly valuable goes beyond the subjective. My frequency of vibration maybe higher than someone else’s and this is just a meta-physical fact, like gravity or kinetic energy. It has nothing to do with being more or less important.

Still, maybe there is more to this than meets the eye. Maybe there is some underlying propaganda about some people being more important than others. It wouldn't be unusual for such propaganda to exist.

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Once you put the thought of being more spiritually 'evolved' somehow you are duping yourself. Even in Kris's post, he did say (regardless to the entity factor), his stagnation - when we remove the entity thing from it - became apparent when he realized some of this was due to the fact he thought he was 'spiritually evolved.'

So I yield on this, 'why' is important, to spiritually evolve. If it is for reasons to be better than others, or even see better than others, is this a trap too? There has to be another reason than that.


I'm not such a big fan of the evolution thing either. Well, I should say not of the more common views, I like Gurdjieff's view. Still when you get down to it these things should have nothing to do with ego valuation. In science it is often viewed as being about the species with the greatest potential of survival, so if we equate it to our world. Then, it would be about the people with the greatest potential to survive spiritually.

I may have a higher frequency but it does not mean I am more valuable. Heck, maybe those of higher frequency are less valuable because we wont be food for the Eagle, the earth, or the moon, if we make it that is. Personally, like I always say, I think it balances out in the end. Death being the great equalizer and all.

(there fixed that quote thingy)
« Last Edit: November 26, 2006, 05:55:12 AM by Ian »
"As long as we confuse the myriad forms of the divine lila with reality, without perceiving the unity of Brahman underlying all these forms, we are under the spell of maya..."
 -Fritjof Capra, The Tao of Physics: An Exploration of the Parallels between Modern Physics and Eastern Mysticism

erik

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Re: Ghosts, Entities, Allies
« Reply #35 on: November 26, 2006, 06:51:09 AM »
So I yield on this, 'why' is important, to spiritually evolve. If it is for reasons to be better than others, or even see better than others, is this a trap too? There has to be another reason than that.

I understand there are things I will question, like I said, it keeps me sane to do so. To insinuate I lack the ability to see, because I do operate this way, is wrong.

Course, I don't expect anyone to see that, anytime soon.

I'll keep questioning testimonies, and teachers, and others, regardless.

And what exactly will your questions help you to understand? Without raising frequency and seeing for yourself, you'll keep playing with endless amount of mental constructs -'theories' - that won't tell or show you a sh*t. It is about direct knowledge - it is about raising frequency and seeing for ourselves. It is not about talking about raising the bloody frequency. It is about doing the job.

Offline Nick

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Re: Ghosts, Entities, Allies
« Reply #36 on: November 26, 2006, 07:15:26 AM »
What is it with this strick distinction between questioning and doing the job? How are they really two distinctly different things? It is all the questions I ponder and the focus of my awareness related that that I use to raise my frequency, guide me to new experiences through waking and dreaming, and make sure I have the sobriety to not go off in the wrong direction. True that only actual work will lead to direct knowledge, how come questioning isn't a part of that actual work?
True that there is a difference between playing with mental constucts and direct experience, but my analytical meditation leads to direct experience.
"As long as we confuse the myriad forms of the divine lila with reality, without perceiving the unity of Brahman underlying all these forms, we are under the spell of maya..."
 -Fritjof Capra, The Tao of Physics: An Exploration of the Parallels between Modern Physics and Eastern Mysticism

erik

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Re: Ghosts, Entities, Allies
« Reply #37 on: November 26, 2006, 07:27:25 AM »
True that there is a difference between playing with mental constructs and direct experience.

That was the emphasis in previous post. Most people never make it beyond playing with constructs - they remain stuck in their unhealed wounds and bodies of pretense. They live lives in thinking who they are and always try to adapt that mental construct to their experience. They never try to rid themselves of it.

Yet when it comes to questioning people seeing much more - how far can it go and when does the questioning become unreasonable?

If I were to meet Jesus right now - who am I to question his teachings? What in me questions them? What in me is/could be qualified or wise enough to ask even one - one good/relevant question?

You see my point?

The best way to evolve in my experience is to subject myself to implementing his words as fully as I ever can and gain experience. Then I'll know for real. My mental, emotional and physical bodies will experience his teachings. Metaphorically - in addition to knowing traffic regulations I'll know how to drive a car in real life.

Clearly, there is a role for questions - but they must be kept in check in order to avoid indulging into mental.


Offline Nick

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Re: Ghosts, Entities, Allies
« Reply #38 on: November 26, 2006, 08:07:20 AM »

You make some good points, but still I can not stop questioning. My own experience has shown me I have achieved more when I walked the road of questioning then when I tried to do other wise. Maybe I'm just not there yet, not ready to let go, but I was ready for years to stop questioning, and go beyond the mental construct. In the end it didn't take me very far, and only when I started to pick up questioning again, when I decided to use the mental construct did advancement start again.

When we want to do some meditation, but don't know what meditation is we pick up a book and read it, then we do the practice. We practice until the practice is our own and don't need the books any more, and can even improvise our own practices.
I made the mistake of thinking that the mental constructs where useless, and I tried to go beyond them. Instead I suppressed and avoided them in trying to go beyond. I made this mistake because I stopped questioning so I wasn't able to discern the difference anymore. Now I use the mental constructs like reading a book, learn from them what I can, and do the work I glean from them, until I don't need it any more than I can just let go.
Now the approach is what is useful to me, what I see in my own life works. I can't throw anything out now. Now is the time to find a use for everything and let force, and friction created by the work itself push out or exclude what ever has overstayed its welcome. I can no longer try to keep things in check, the honest work itself must provide the primary checks and balances.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2006, 08:17:56 AM by Ian »
"As long as we confuse the myriad forms of the divine lila with reality, without perceiving the unity of Brahman underlying all these forms, we are under the spell of maya..."
 -Fritjof Capra, The Tao of Physics: An Exploration of the Parallels between Modern Physics and Eastern Mysticism

nichi

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Re: Ghosts, Entities, Allies
« Reply #39 on: November 26, 2006, 08:10:59 AM »
I have a different association with the expression, "raising the frequency", or "raising the vibration".  It has nothing to do with a comparison of my evolution to another's. It's a process through which the inner is cleansed so that one can reach the higher self, the dreamer, spirit.
It's what we hope for in meditation, in invocation. The imagery is a matter of one's personal aesthetics.
"Once" is not enough -- it's a habit we develop, hopefully.

Offline Nick

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Re: Ghosts, Entities, Allies
« Reply #40 on: November 26, 2006, 08:33:18 AM »

If I were to meet Jesus right now - who am I to question his teachings? What in me questions them? What in me is/could be qualified or wise enough to ask even one - one good/relevant question?

You see my point?


It isn't about who you are to question his teachings. It isn't about questioning the validity or not. It is that I might not realize something about Jesus’ teaching if I do not question them. True if Jesus was right here right now, I probably would not be thinking. I would be melting...or who knows what. But, with Jesus in front of me and Jesus is teaching something why I should do anything less than question what he says so as to learn. Even the disciples questioned if I remember right. Gurdjieff sat with his students and they asked him questions. Maybe sometimes questions are gateways, doors to be opened, or bridges to be crossed, and when open that door sometimes power comes through. Then a question is more than a question.

what ever happened to ask and though shalt find and all that jazz?
"As long as we confuse the myriad forms of the divine lila with reality, without perceiving the unity of Brahman underlying all these forms, we are under the spell of maya..."
 -Fritjof Capra, The Tao of Physics: An Exploration of the Parallels between Modern Physics and Eastern Mysticism

erik

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Re: Ghosts, Entities, Allies
« Reply #41 on: November 26, 2006, 08:41:16 AM »
what ever happened to ask and though shalt find and all that jazz?

How about - make an effort, seek yourself - and you'll learn 1 000 times more than when somebody tells you an answer?  :D Learn to seek - for the ultimate answers will never be told by anybody.

Well, some explanatory notes - I thought they were sort of self-evident, but OK - here they come.

-yes, questions can be useful and they are useful to a certain extent.
-yes, human communication and learning process usually proceeds through questions and answers

my points were:
-while asking questions, especially regarding the words of more evolved beings, one must keep in mind the paradox that we will understand them only in hindsight and without work hindsight will not be achieved
-the best way to learn, in my mind, is to experiment continuously with one's life.

The very essence of Toltec path is based on practice and gaining experience. Experience is the basis for making all sorts of judgements and concepts. Not other theories and not mental constructs.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2006, 08:57:53 AM by gangster »

Offline Nick

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Re: Ghosts, Entities, Allies
« Reply #42 on: November 26, 2006, 09:22:04 AM »
How about - make an effort, seek yourself - and you'll learn 1 000 times more than when somebody tells you an answer?  :D Learn to seek - for the ultimate answers will never be told by anybody.

Unless the some body who you ask is your Higher Self, this is still seeking, and the answer does not have to be with words it can be direct knowledge. And, often is direct knowledge from the Dreamer. The question and even mental construct is just the catharsis to the deeper experience.
I'm still not sure the contradiction. Or why there should be a point at which questioning becomes unreasonable. The questions eventually break themselves and the minds reality constructs down, thinning things so that direct knowledge comes more easily. Then the imagination can be used to create a construct a form that leads to the dissolving of all forms-constructs. Fighting fire with fire works if you know how to do it right.

You’re still separating the question to a certain sphere only. I admit when I'm out jogging I like to silence my thoughts, then my motions are more fluid and I use less energy making them. When I'm making love I'm not thinking about how to melt into my beloved, I just merge.
But, questions and constructs are for more than just the learning process,  they can be an intricate part of the healing process and much more.
 


« Last Edit: November 26, 2006, 09:23:40 AM by Ian »
"As long as we confuse the myriad forms of the divine lila with reality, without perceiving the unity of Brahman underlying all these forms, we are under the spell of maya..."
 -Fritjof Capra, The Tao of Physics: An Exploration of the Parallels between Modern Physics and Eastern Mysticism

Offline Nick

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Re: Ghosts, Entities, Allies
« Reply #43 on: November 26, 2006, 10:51:45 AM »

my points were:
-while asking questions, especially regarding the words of more evolved beings, one must keep in mind the paradox that we will understand them only in hindsight and without work hindsight will not be achieved
-the best way to learn, in my mind, is to experiment continuously with one's life.

The very essence of Toltec path is based on practice and gaining experience. Experience is the basis for making all sorts of judgements and concepts. Not other theories and not mental constructs.

But, the mental body is the first body of form that the essences of the Dreamer come into. Thoughts are in the mental body, plum to the depth of a thought, and that thought connects to your Dreamer and to everything else. How is theory and mental construct separate from experience from this perspective? The theory is only a construct, but it breaks down into the reality when we fallow it back to its fundamental base in reality. How is experimentation with ones life separate from this?  Seems to me we should want to work on all angles. Why explore experience of one aspect of being, but not another, when all is one.
"As long as we confuse the myriad forms of the divine lila with reality, without perceiving the unity of Brahman underlying all these forms, we are under the spell of maya..."
 -Fritjof Capra, The Tao of Physics: An Exploration of the Parallels between Modern Physics and Eastern Mysticism

niamhspark

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Re: Ghosts, Entities, Allies
« Reply #44 on: November 26, 2006, 12:57:25 PM »
And what exactly will your questions help you to understand? Without raising frequency and seeing for yourself, you'll keep playing with endless amount of mental constructs -'theories' - that won't tell or show you a sh*t. It is about direct knowledge - it is about raising frequency and seeing for ourselves. It is not about talking about raising the bloody frequency. It is about doing the job.

Your own mental construct. Maybe the work doesn't necessarily involve raising the 'frequency.' Going 'higher,' and being 'better' and so forth. I beg to differ with something which appears to create more division. I think it's a dual construct in some form and doesn't sound very Tao to me.

Additional note, that'd be a very nifty system, for someone to purport their 'truth' and admonish the value in questioning, make it 'wrong' in some way. Or a sign of being 'less spiritually evolved.' They should be able to 'see' it's correct, and if they can't agree with the view, well, they lack the ability to 'see.'

Nice system set up with this, isn't it? Of course, perfect for anyone who wishes to be a guru, or believe they're right 99.9% of the time. Nice.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2006, 01:07:29 PM by niamhspark »

 

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