Topic: Neale Donald Walsch

[daphne]

I think we "stumble" into the message we most need when the time is right, in the peccadilloes of our own travels.

That is so true, and has happened to me so often, that it almost makes me a believer! 

[Jahn]

We have an obligation to seek out the teachings of the Short Path, but also an obligation to recognise and understand the teachings of the Long Path. This, because we have to survive in the world, but more because we have to play a role in the world and the wisdoms of the Short Path are not applicable to those who come under the command of the Long Path.

Absolutely, we have been talking about this before. When I contemplated my post I found out that what I was about to recognize about different approaches was that in the tradition that is built on Christ there are two paths. One is impersonal and perhaps what you would call the long path approach while the other has drama and is more focused on the true teachings of Jesus.

He actually said "I am the path". But that is not really my point, even if it has a core element. The point is the surrender that he manifest. (Now this IE refuse to show what i write so I drop it here).

[Jahn]

In the impersonal way you rely on the dogma and try to be a good guy. That is nice, but much without a vein.

The complete opposite is to live the transformation and the crucification and the drama it all was when Jesus took on our sins. For warriors the way to God and alignment through the experiences of Jesus Christ is not what we seek in the first place but it is a part of our history and social context to deal with the task. Tommy2F for instance found peace in the connection with JC.

I see more but am not able to structure these seeings into words. In our core we have the unlimited connection in time and space to everything that has happened and will happen. My ideas comes from a visit in the core ... 

[Michael]

Tommy2F for instance found peace in the connection with JC. 

Did he? That's what he was determined to convince everyone of, but not what I see.

the other has drama and is more focused on the true teachings of Jesus.

On my long walk upon this road, I have come to recognise three salient things about the path of bhakti: exclusivity, context and pride. This has been on my mind recently, so I'll use this thread to pop these thought down - some may agree and some not.

Exclusivity.
It appears to me that the pure devotional path has exclusivity unavoidably embedded into it. Tommy was a classic example of this: he began gradually, with a high degree of tolerance and acceptance of the 'many paths', but soon there was only one - his - and all the rest were wrong (evil in fact).

That to me is inevitable, because if you are going to commit your desire engine to one object with the intensity and absoluteness that bhakti demands, then finally there can be only one correct way. Tolerance of alternatives becomes unacceptable, and due to the intensely personal nature of bhakti, other people become right or wrong in alignment with that 'correct way'.

Context.
This never ceases to amaze me. Despite what bhakti devotees loudly proclaim, that their relationship with their god is unique, individual and personal, nonetheless they demonstrate blatantly their relationship is populated by all the items of their social context.

The Christian variety say for example that their soul is in a one-to-one relationship with Jesus, exclusive to and uninfluenced by anything else whatsoever: they are 'alone with Jesus'. But then you see them loudly upholding all the beliefs and attitudes of every other evangelical Christian - anti-drug, anti-abortion, anti-government, anti-sharmanic, anti-liberal views and on and on.

Again I have come to see this as a natural consequence of the intensely personal nature of bhakti, that without their realising it, devotionals absorb all the 'value' judgements of their identified social group-context. It is a consequence of shifting the centre of gravity to the emotions - the doors open to every intense emotion, especially 'belonging'.

Pride
Most (not all) bhakti followers are actually simply projecting their self-importance onto the personage of their devotion. Where once if you insulted them, they would be offended, now if you insult their god they will be even more offended. They have simply succeeded in transferring an exaggerated version of their pride to a deity, which you will note is their 'personal saviour' and then hopefully the world's 'personal saviour'.

The result I have noticed is that once the flames of excitation exhaust themselves, and the person feels a little silly for having told everyone 'you are wrong and I am right', for having made such fuss and drama - once real life in all it's mundanity returns to the fore in buckets - they can't pull out. Because their pride is invested.

They can't return to all their old friends and say, 'sorry guys, I just had a little flip out', because from the start it was a matter of pride, and they will go to their grave defending that against humiliation.


Having said all that, I should add that any path without passion is a dead path.

And let me stress - not all bhakti devotees fall into the traps I sketched above.

I recall one friend of Ram Dass - he studied advanced Hindu techniques of breathing and meditation with Dass. Eventually he went to a small cave in the desert somewhere in the US, and took LSD while focusing all his love and attention on Jesus Christ, who was his personal beloved. Employing all these techniques, he stayed there and died there. When Dass asked his guru, Neem Kaoli Baba if this man was alright, Neem went into meditation for a little while. Then he began to cry. He told Dass that his friend had made it - he was one with his beloved.

Just a little story to indicate that bhakti followers come in all shapes and sizes.

[daphne]

I'm not a bhakti devotee, of any kind. I have sought at times on my journey to be one. Nothing happens. I think I am too mental for Bhakti. I do recall though a dream in which Jesus gave me a passport to cross the border to another land. Always wondered about that dream.

I quite enjoyed the first Conversations with God. I read the book, and then also listened to the audio of the book. I found it interesting that there were parts of the book I did not recall reading, though I heard them on the audio. And vice-versa. I found that I enjoyed the audio more than the visual book. I don't usually do audio. The rest of the books, I started reading and then left. Was pretty much a repition of what went before and did not have the same impact on me. It sometimes seems that authors who suddenly find there book receptive (like the Celestine series, and the Kryon books and many other, too), then seem to have a need to go on and on with more books. There's a pattern. Once the "spiritual" aspect has been introduced, they all go on then to solve the social and political problems of the world.

[Nichi]

Interesting discussion of bhakti devotees. I always think of Lalla and Mirabai, wondering if they could have fit this motif of "pride". If they didn't, could it be that they didn't because there wasn't an evangelical component in their beliefs?

[Michael]

could it be that they didn't because there wasn't am evangelical component in their beliefs?

That's interesting - hadn't thought about that. You could be right.

[Michael]

I do recall though a dream in which Jesus gave me a passport to cross the border to another land.

I like that.

Once the "spiritual" aspect has been introduced, they all go on then to solve the social and political problems of the world.

 

[Taimyr]

This maybe a little offtopic, but still...

I've always found a little funny all this talk about Ravens. I mean, ravens are birds.

Why should someone with knowledge identify themselves with ravens? Do i have to be a "Raven" to be interested in the core?

It's just wierd to hear this kind of talk from a man who is supposed to have kownledge (as you claim to be). Anyway, it just interests me if you can explain this emphasis on ravens. 

Right. But do not mix what can be useful with what is clean and straight.

Ravens go for the core in energy and if they do not recognize that core it is of little interest.

Very often, the softed versions that attract the masses have very little core. The core is not only love, peace and understanding. God is not a nice uncle sitting in a chair he is more like one-eyed Odin driving a Harley Davidsson and being an expert on computers. Heh, pressing the belief system.

Jesus did the right thing, trying to bring love to this world, and I have met him. But on the other hand he was close to be a fool too. Really testing the limits of what that could be done back then.
Do they (Walsh, the church, the Pope etc.) know Jesus, the crucified man that challenged the Jews? No. The Son of God then, how big are the chances that they know him? Of course not they do not know him as we might do, the Son of God is impossible to manifest, that is their misperception. They will never give him the credit he claimed.

- But the Raven knows, every tiny detail that is worth to know he or she knows about "Messiah". How come? Because the Raven search the core.

 ~.~

[Nichi]

That's interesting - hadn't thought about that. You could be right.

Then again, who knows how they were received by their contemporaries...
I imagine they were considered "prideful" in their time, each of them rebuking their husbands.

[Jahn]

Exclusivity.
It appears to me that the pure devotional path has exclusivity unavoidably embedded into it. Tommy was a classic example of this: he began gradually, with a high degree of tolerance and acceptance of the 'many paths', but soon there was only one - his - and all the rest were wrong (evil in fact).

The result I have noticed is that once the flames of excitation exhaust themselves, and the person feels a little silly for having told everyone 'you are wrong and I am right', for having made such fuss and drama - once real life in all it's mundanity returns to the fore in buckets - they can't pull out. Because their pride is invested.

You are absolutely right Michael but I am not into cases or how this way of JC has been distorted by mankind. I only saw two different approaches which of one path to alignment was through JC.

[Jahn]

This maybe a little offtopic, but still...

I've always found a little funny all this talk about Ravens. I mean, ravens are birds.

Why should someone with knowledge identify themselves with ravens? Do i have to be a "Raven" to be interested in the core?

It's just wierd to hear this kind of talk from a man who is supposed to have kownledge (as you claim to be). Anyway, it just interests me if you can explain this emphasis on ravens. 

Splendid that you bring this topic up Taimyr.

For you the Raven might be just another bird but in the world of the Shaman the Raven hold the mystic. The Raven is a reflection of mans deepest connection to himself.

- “Ask the Raven” was a piece written by Edgar Allan Poe and that piece of art is only a reflection of the energy of the Raven. Odin had two Ravens, Hugin and Munin, as an extension of his seeing of what was going on in the world.

The names Hugin and Munin is best translated to Mind and Memory or to Spirit and Memory. It is a pair that each day flew out from Odin’s nest and then returned in the evening to report to him what they had seen. 

The Core on the other hand is your spine alignment to life. In the Core lies the alignment to the Ravens and the infinity. The Ravens as a label or identity only serve a purpose to describe our frequency or dimension of knowledge, or rather knowingness, since knowledge is what you can read about. From the concept of understanding the nature of the Ravens and knowingness beyond, the label of Ravens is not necessary, but still today they are a good metaphor for us in this life and context to grasp the mystic and magic of life.