Topic: When we love somebody...

[Red one]

That was your story,   I said that I had experience with torturers. 
If you are asking me have I ever loved someone while they were torturing me, I can tell you that on one occasion in particular, that very thing saved my life.

Oh, so you are suggesting that the love under conditons of domestic violence is close or similar to unconditional love?

Your case sounds like a catch 22 - the regular-cultural kind of love got you together with your torturer in the first place, its role as your life-saver...It all sounds like you are trying to add an aura of magic to a mundane case of domestic violence. Good that you pulled through, but idolizing it...? Think twice even before considering anything like that.

Besides, there are many known cases of violence where the victim has been literally beaten into loving the abuser to the extent where victim has acutally tried to stop law enforcement officers from acting. Terrorists, sexual violence, etc.  Human mind is suscpetible to pressure and violence. Percpetion of reality can be dramatically altered using violence and pain.

Sorry, but I don't buy your case and I suggest you review deeply your own position on it.

[littlefeather]

Oh, so you are suggesting that the love under conditons of domestic violence is close or similar to unconditional love?

No Erik, I am not speaking of domestic violence.  Nor am I speaking of unconditional love.  The analagy you used was one of being tortured, that is what I am speaking to.   Whether or not it is possible to love a person who is torturing you is the question I answered.

Your case sounds like a catch 22 - the regular-cultural kind of love got you together with your torturer in the first place, its role as your life-saver...It all sounds like you are trying to add an aura of magic to a mundane case of domestic violence. Good that you pulled through, but idolizing it...? Think twice even before considering anything like that.

As I said, I am not talking of any domestic violence instances.    Certainly neither am I idolizing them.

Besides, there are many known cases of violence where the victim has been literally beaten into loving the abuser to the extent where victim has acutally tried to stop law enforcement officers from acting. Terrorists, sexual violence, etc.  Human mind is suscpetible to pressure and violence. Percpetion of reality can be dramatically altered using violence and pain.

I can't say I have ever heard of such a case where the 'victim' was beaten into loving the abuser.  Love doesn't work that way E. 

Sorry, but I don't buy your case and I suggest you review deeply your own position on it.

As I said before, it's up to you whether or not you choose to believe it is possible to love someone who harms you.   
What you buy or do not buy, is up to you.  The fact is, that love is the answer, love will lead the way.  Your fear of it however is your personal stumbling block.  I am afraid that is your battle to fight how you, yourself see fit.

[Red one]

I don't think you are adequate.
The fact that you have heard a little and read a little, does not mean that there isn't a huge database of registered cases where the use of violence has induced all sorts of behaviours in victims. Wishful thinking in every word.

[littlefeather]

I don't think you are adequate.

That is an interesting judgement.

[Jaharkta]

been literally beaten into loving the abuser to the extent where victim has acutally tried to stop law enforcement officers from acting

That sounds more like fear than love to me.

Dear jaharkta, I'm well aware that using 'torturer' as an extreme example of 'petty tyrant' was my analogy. You do not have to remind me of that (I'm quite able to keep track of what I am saying).

Now, if you have any serious interest in investigating things over and above expressing some petty emotions - you are welcome (you konw, you can fake your thoughts so that even you yourself believe them, but under no circumstances can you fake emotions/feelings and associated energies). However, if you just want to keep expressing some suppressed emotions and cover them with fake thoughts - it is a waste of time.

You've gone off the deep end, E!

I don't think you are adequate.
The fact that you have heard a little and read a little, does not mean that there isn't a huge database of registered cases where the use of violence has induced all sorts of behaviours in victims. Wishful thinking in every word.

Yes, you have gone over the deep end.

"Compliance" and 'submission' aren't love, E.

[Red one]

Apparently, you know as little, jaharkta.
And could you please stop doing that mother-hen thing?

[littlefeather]

...does it mean there is somebody we don't love?

When we say 'I love you!', does it mean that there is somebody we cold say to: 'I don't love you!'?

Hopefully, that some 'one' is not our self.
 

[Red one]

Don't make love!
Live unconditional love! But that's a thing that only a few know, isn't it?

[Jaharkta]

Apparently, you know as little, jaharkta.
And could you please stop doing that mother-hen thing?

Could you please stop doing that royal-arsehole thing?  

[daphne]

Percpetion of reality can be dramatically altered using violence and pain.

Perception of reality can also be dramatically altered through pain, without even the 'using of'.

[Red one]

Could you please stop doing that royal-arsehole thing?  

Oh well, who came here to give orders...?
At least it became clear that there really is a limit to where you can stretch and what can be discussed with you. What's more important - you can't get over conditional love. No way. Insulted, injured, hurting and still milling.

[Red one]

Perception of reality can also be dramatically altered through pain, without even the 'using of'.

Very true: sleep deprivation, lasting pain, lasting illness - it takes so little to dramatically change a person. It takes much longer and much more energy to recover.

[Jaharkta]

Oh well, who came here to give orders...?
At least it became clear that there really is a limit to where you can stretch and what can be discussed with you. What's more important - you can't get over conditional love. No way. Insulted, injured, hurting and still milling.

I didn't really come here to discuss. Four different people either PM'ed or emailed asking about this thread. Your words are not "hurtful" as you are presuming. It's the spectacle you're making. You've spent a lot of energy spitting insults and attacking, rather than discussing. I will observe to you that your projections are way over the top. Why shouldn't I?

As for your metaphor of someone having limbs amputated, I doubt that the presence of mind in such a situation could include much of anything cogent -- from thought to emotion. Some Master somewhere could no doubt overcome it all, but that's just speculation.

[Red one]

So as to cut the crap - your post was THIRD in the thread.
Date: « Reply #2 on: December 28, 2008, 03:03:34 PM »

So you got 4 PM-s after two posts?

Do you know how long is pike's memory? 5 minutes.

[Jaharkta]

So as to cut the crap - your post was THIRD in the thread.
Date: « Reply #2 on: December 28, 2008, 03:03:34 PM »

So you got 4 PM-s after two posts?

Do you know how long is pike's memory? 5 minutes.

I can't recall the timing of it, to tell you the truth. They may have all been afterward -- one may come before. Is it significant?

As for cutting the crap ... I'm all for it. When will you start the process?