Topic: Joseph Campbell

[Firestarter]

[Michael]

I do find these very hard to read when rasterized. But in this case, for how many who have died did the darkest moment mean suffering unto death? I suppose that is transformation, of a kind ... so long as we accept that.

[Firestarter]

I do find these very hard to read when rasterized. But in this case, for how many who have died did the darkest moment mean suffering unto death? I suppose that is transformation, of a kind ... so long as we accept that.

It means per death eventually we all get some relief.

[Nichi]

"The unconscious sends all sorts of vapors, odd beings, terrors, and deluding images up into the mind – whether in dream, broad daylight, or insanity; for the human kingdom, beneath the floor of the comparatively neat little dwelling that we call our consciousness, goes down into unsuspected Aladdin caves. There not only jewels but also dangerous jinn abide: the inconvenient or resisted psychological powers that we have not thought or dared integrate into our lives."

Joseph Campbell, The Hero with a Thousand Faces

[Nichi]

"The hero adventures out of the land we know into darkness; there accomplishes his adventure or again is simply lost to us, imprisoned, or in danger; and his return is described as a coming back out of that yonder. Nevertheless—and here is a great key to the understanding of myth and symbol—the two kingdoms are actually one. The realm of the gods is a forgotten dimension of the world we know. And the exploration of that dimension, either willingly or unwillingly, is the whole sense of the deed of the hero."

Joseph Campbell, The Hero with a Thousand Faces, (3rd. edition), p. 188

[Nichi]

“Nietzsche was the one who did the job for me. At a certain moment in his life, the idea came to him of what he called 'the love of your fate.' Whatever your fate is, whatever the hell happens, you say, 'This is what I need.' It may look like a wreck, but go at it as though it were an opportunity, a challenge. If you bring love to that moment—not discouragement—you will find the strength is there. Any disaster you can survive is an improvement in your character, your stature, and your life. What a privilege! This is when the spontaneity of your own nature will have a chance to flow.

"Then, when looking back at your life, you will see that the moments which seemed to be great failures followed by wreckage were the incidents that shaped the life you have now. You’ll see that this is really true. Nothing can happen to you that is not positive. Even though it looks and feels at the moment like a negative crisis, it is not. The crisis throws you back, and when you are required to exhibit strength, it comes.”

Joseph Campbell, A Joseph Campbell Companion: Reflections on the Art of Living.

[Michael]

I didn't know Nietzsche was into that, although when you think about it, he was into everything.

[Nichi]

"That which does not kill us makes us stronger."

~Nietzsche

[Michael]

Yes, good point, but I wasn't aware he coined that out of a deeper theme of 'the love or your fate'.

[Nichi]

Yes, good point, but I wasn't aware he coined that out of a deeper theme of 'the love or your fate'.

From Wiki:

Amor fati is a Latin phrase loosely translating to "love of fate" or "love of one's fate". It is used to describe an attitude in which one sees everything that happens in one's life, including suffering and loss, as good. Moreover, it is characterized by an acceptance of the events or situations that occur in one's life.

The phrase has been linked to the writings of Marcus Aurelius, who did not himself use the words (he wrote in Greek, not Latin).

The phrase is used repeatedly in Friedrich Nietzsche's writings and is representative of the general outlook on life he articulates in section 276 of The Gay Science, which reads:

    "I want to learn more and more to see as beautiful what is necessary in things; then I shall be one of those who make things beautiful. Amor fati: let that be my love henceforth! I do not want to wage war against what is ugly. I do not want to accuse; I do not even want to accuse those who accuse. Looking away shall be my only negation. And all in all and on the whole: some day I wish to be only a Yes-sayer."

It is important to note that Nietzsche in this context refers to "Yes-sayer", not in a political or social sense, but to the uncompromising acceptance of reality per se.

Quotation from "Why I Am So Clever" in Ecce Homo, section 10:

    "My formula for greatness in a human being is amor fati: that one wants nothing to be different, not forward, not backward, not in all eternity. Not merely bear what is necessary, still less conceal it—all idealism is mendacity in the face of what is necessary—but love it."

[Nichi]

Another applicable quote from Nietzsche --

"The greater the suffering, the greater the potential for joy. How little you know of human happiness, you comfortable and benevolent people. For happiness and unhappiness are sisters and even twins that either grow up together or remain small together. Those who wish to experience the fullness of life must also suffer deeply, for it is in recovery from a crippling disease that life is most fully affirmed."

--Nietzsche

This was culled from the following article, embracing Amor Fati:
http://www.anonymousone.com/faq58.htm

[Michael]

Yes, thanks for those quotes Nichi. Nietzsche is a fascinating character. I have only read The Twilight of the Gods, and Thus Spake Zarathustra, the latter I preferred by far.

I feel you have to give him the poetic licence to follow a thought through to it's surprising connections, without criticising pedantically any particular point. We don't have to agree with every point, because it's the whole ride that holds the wisdom. I always want to go back and nit-pick, but realised that would cripple his poetic vision, which was really something to celebrate.

[Nichi]

Yes, thanks for those quotes Nichi. Nietzsche is a fascinating character. I have only read The Twilight of the Gods, and Thus Spake Zarathustra, the latter I preferred by far.

I feel you have to give him the poetic licence to follow a thought through to it's surprising connections, without criticising pedantically any particular point. We don't have to agree with every point, because it's the whole ride that holds the wisdom. I always want to go back and nit-pick, but realised that would cripple his poetic vision, which was really something to celebrate.

Well, I'm not advocating for him, please don't misunderstand. I was actually surprised that Joseph Campbell was so admiring of him.

Western philosophy is one of those fields whose breadth requires knowledge of the whole in order to draw conclusions. And not just "the whole" of a given philosopher's work, but the whole of philosophy in general, going way back to the monists and working forward. The reason for the necessity for knowledge of the whole is that each philosopher's work is responding to the previous eminent thinker's. They all build on one another, in a linear fashion. Some branch into specific points of focus: some epistemological, some ontological, some aesthetic, some ethical, etc. etc. etc. To fully appreciate one and to see the "new" creation, there must be an understanding of the departure points from the previous works.

I absolutely do not have that understanding. I did take many philosophy courses in college, which is how I can make the bold claim: I do not understand. It's an ambitious undertaking, and a scholarly one, to take that linear path. My hat is off to anyone who can get through all the works of all the philosophers. If I was to endeavor that study, that is what I would demand of myself, to start at the beginning.

Where I enter in with Nietzsche is via a course I had to drop, for personal reasons. It featured one of his later works, on Dionysius vs. Apollo. It was extremely fascinating, and did not deal with the ubermensch. I'm not so familiar with Nietzsche's work, which seems to have been taken by the Third Reich as justification. (Were they on the right track in usurping his concepts? That seems to be greatly debated.)  All I know is that his works continue to be controversial and misunderstood, as a cursory scan of this article will reveal:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influence_and_reception_of_Friedrich_Nietzsche

[Nichi]

All of the above, of course, calls to mind the folly of quotes. We do this thing, taking quotes, but I wonder sometimes if we should. Do I really understand the context of the quote, do I really understand the speaker's intent and meaning?  Sometimes yes, sometimes no. I tend to take a quote for its dazzling, heuristic value, or for an appreciation of the speaker's deft use of language. For the image, for the metaphor. But I always think about it: am I lazy to do so. Shouldn't I be explaining the whole.

~Ongoing consideration.

[Nichi]

I thought that this was an interesting take on 'demons'.

"A deity is the personification of a spiritual power, and deities who are not recognized become demonic and are really dangerous. One has been out of communication: their messages have not been heard, or if heard, not heeded. And when they do break through, in the end, there is literally hell to pay."

Joseph Campbell, Thou Art That: Transforming Religious Metaphor