Topic: Joseph Campbell

[Nichi]

His books were the first of mine to go.

[Firestarter]

Vicki I totally agree with you. I have seen so many over the years who got into Crowley and GD, or other forms of CM and got mentally unstable. I just removed a young kid who was heavy under the influence. Getting worse and worse. But I'm glad I read up on it years ago myself. It prepared me in meeting others. Nick ill surmise. Its a quick path. But the risk is absolute madness. If she has depression, absolutely not!

[Michael]

Crowley attracted many low-life spirits, which come through in his later works more and more. It is in him the danger lies. If you want to be somewhat informed about him, read a biographical text, not his own writings.

[Nick]

Given that your spouse is prone to depression, I definitely would not recommend her studying him. As a matter of fact, I had 2 friends who ended up in psych hospital for long periods of time after following C's motifs. And I know of a 3rd. Michael has a good policy there of not getting involved with him here in this place.

Crowley attracted many low-life spirits, which come through in his later works more and more. It is in him the danger lies. If you want to be somewhat informed about him, read a biographical text, not his own writings.

Michael's last statement (as well as his previous) here kind of relates to my thinking. In a sense I was wondering the appropriate distance if you will... Michael said you have to use what works for dramatizations. Still the Graphic Novel writer Alan Moore (I love the Watchmen!) delved into these subjects quite a bit, and it led to him taken them up as a practice in his daily life. Much like me making sculptures and turning down the request for the demon statue, because I would connect to the energy in creating it. In my mind a good artist goes quite deep into the energy they are trying to put into their creations. That said, perhaps I would create a story using some of Crowley's ideas and take the appropriate precautions to not delve to deep, but even with me working by my wife's side, I don't know that she wouldn't take a deeper interest. BUT like with a biographical text, I can imagine looking at what other artists have done with Crowley's ideas, and playing with those ideas to make them your own. I get a very different feel from say, Alan Moore or Lovecraft, than Crowley.

For instance no one can really say for sure that Lovecraft drew from Crowley, but even I with only a cursory knowledge of Crowley can see the many parallels, as well as the unique differences. And Lovecraft had a huge effect on the genre, everyone uses his work, and yet when they do it well it can still make for an awesome story without being cliche. A lot of the greats drew from the world of actual practice to give there works a more lasting deeper felt appeal. To me it just makes good sense.
 

[Nichi]

I'm reminded of an anecdote one of my teachers used to tell. She was from Scotland, where the prohibitions, being part of Great Britain, on witchcraft loosened considerably during WWII. It was known that there was a network of spiritualists and witches working against Hitler, and their efforts were secretly applauded.

I have absolutely no proof of this -- these are the stories I heard in the 70's and 80's. Underground stories, if you will. Gerald Gardner might have been one of the ones who wrote about it, but I got rid of his books too.

I've been watching a lot of British drama lately, and very recently I watched a reference to this underground occult movement-to-bring-down-Hitler. It was part and parcel to an unrelated story. But what did the writers do - they attributed the movement to Crowley. I just know that this is inaccurate. It seems as if he's the only idea which survived the blood, sweat, and tears of those actually involved in that Work. On the one hand, a gross injustice of "history" -- on the other, as Michael intimated, the ones involved in the work of the shaman do not take credit, and prefer to work in obscurity, anonymity, eschewing "glory". They aren't famous writers describing their process.

So did Lovecraft have Crowley as a model? I don't know, because there's a lot which is attributed to Crowley which is not accurate. (That, and I don't know Lovecraft's work.)

[Firestarter]

Vicki. Do you think its ok to use the Thoth deck? I have no problems using it. But I admit it took me years to work with it. What's your take on it?

[Nichi]

Vicki. Do you think its ok to use the Thoth deck? I have no problems using it. But I admit it took me years to work with it. What's your take on it?

I used the Thoth deck when I taught a Tarot class. I used it in comparison to the Ryder, to show the progression. But use it for readings, no - it made folks too nervous.

[Firestarter]

Right. I normally use gilded or spiral for my reads. But on occasion I feel called to use it

[Firestarter]

"All societies are evil, sorrowful, inequitable; and so they will always be. So if you really want to help this world, what you will have to teach is how to live in it. And that no one can do who has not himself learned how to live in it in the joyful sorrow and sorrowful joy of the knowledge of life as it is."

Joseph Campbell

I really love Joseph Campbell. But If I accept this as true, then society will never change. I have got to believe in the potential for a new age.

[Firestarter]

As a general rule, I am against discussions about Crowley, because I know where they lead, and the energy they introduce - an energy I don't want in Soma. Like most western people interested in a spiritual path, I investigated western magic - Golden Dawn, The Golden Bough, Alchemy, Masons etc - there was quite a lot happening in 18 and 19th centuries, with a lot of violence intermixed by church and societal reactions. They coalesced in a particular small country in Europe (whose name I forget - I think it no longer exists under that name anyway) where the rulers welcomed them in as a kind of refugee. My understanding is that the consequence for that country was quite beneficial, although I have little proof of that.

In general, the stream that followed the Golden Dawn and Crowley got mired in a king of suprasensible landscape that was a spiritual dead-end, which is why I adopt Gurdjieff's attitude when Crowley visited him - acknowledged him but studiously ignoring him until he went away. I do not advise anyone to study his works. The dealing with the shadow side of human desire in Europe has had a very bad name and the constant wars are a consequence of this poor handling. Europeans by nature seem to have an excess of self-righteousness and puritanical poopiness, to say the least - just look at their cathedrals.

But anyone who does want to study up on western magic, I suggest The White Goddess, all the writings of Dion Fortune, Rudolf Steiner (esp his material on the Rosicrucians), Carl Jung, as well as books on Avalon and Merlin (they have a good vibe). There are others, but the principle is to identify the colour of the energy that streams from them.

Releasing the pressure from the shadow does not mean indulging in it. It has to be handled with care. The important thing is to acknowledge it - not to be so self-satisfied with your positive or negative opinions. "Humility is a great thing, Arjuna, much greater than archery." [The Mahabharata]

I wont go into a big huge thing on Crowley to honor wishes but...he was on the Sgt Pepper's album. I work with the Thoth deck. Now I avoided the deck like the plague for a long, long time cause of Crowley. But then I got the nod to use the deck. I guess I felt I needed to face the deck and...I have found it very accurate. I have coined the Thoth deck "The deck that does not care if it hurts your feelings." Now it has a lot of Egyptian elements in it. But my working with it for some years now, I dont have any negative Crowley vibe from it. It has taken on a magic of its own. Now I dont care for him as a person he was not a good person per se. But all magical circles agree on one thing: Crowley knew his magic. He was brilliant in decoding some things. I would never ever walk a Thelema path of course myself. But he was a master with magical systems.

Maybe thats why The Beatles had him on the cover. He still contributed to some spiritual "stuff" which had some value. BUT a huge caveat - you have to know what to extract, and what to discard. Thats my opinion on that.

Interesting thread I was called to read it.