Topic: David Bohm on reality

[Muffin]

But they are verifiable: they are Ellen's experiences.

As for "science", I don't believe you will be able to duplicate or replicate or even falsify the experiences of others, any more than one could yours. So therein probably lies a clash of methodologies.

Now you are just contradicting yourself. They are either verifiable or not. Speaking of clash of methodologies, what is your methodology anyway? How did you verify the validity of Ellen's, or Michael's or your own experiences?
For me the statement that it's "Ellen's experiences" does not validate her "experiences". The only verifiable thing is that she had those experiences, because I trust that she is not lying, but that says nothing about their validity.

If I would come one day and tell you that I saw an alien, you would say: "ok, that is your experience and I respect that, but show me some proof". You would not start to believe that there are aliens. My stance towards the whole toltec tradition, and spiritual movements in general, is the same. You have your experiences that I personally cannot verify (and also billions of other humans), and all of my experiences point me to the exact opposite conclusions.

[Muffin]

What I don't get is why Rudi came back to a place like this, to try and debunk things. It leads me to the thought that perhaps he didn't pay much attention to the type of people who are on this forum. That he has no idea what this place is, that he never understood the material in those "cleverly worded books".

Are you seeking something Rudi? Cause what your doing in this thread isn't going to make anyone here convert to a science based outlook on life. Your efforts in this line would be entirely fruitless.

Catch my plane tomarow, unlikely I will be on again, for a week. In the mean time I'll contemplate the best way to explain my answer to Michael's beak of the Eagle question. Funny I catch a plane tomarow and today we went to the Pittsburgh Aviary. Sweet dreams.

Nick, all I can do is to repeat the thing I said to Michael. Probably you missed it, so here it is for your convenience.

All I hear is: something something something sometimes somewhere will happen. Vague like like all prophecies. Not real knowledge.

You are a smart man Michael, you know that there must be a reason why I returned after such a long absence. You also probably suspect that I am not merely here to discuss the merits of reason vs. Mysticism.

Do you know what I am up to? No.

If you can read between the lines or the bold text, whichever you prefer, you would understand that I did not come back to this forum to discuss the merits of reason vs. mysticism or to debunk things. It just happened because I didn't get around to formulate what I came here to say yet.

Heck, your seeing should have told you that. I mean, Michael's did. His seeing told him that something somewhen will happen.
With this additional information I shared now, your seeing should be able to tell you what I came here to say. Or just take an educated guess, connect the dots.

In the mean time I'll contemplate the best way to explain my answer to Michael's beak of the Eagle question.

To be honest, I don't know what you are talking about because I didn't read neither Michael's question nor your answer. This and the "my path" thread is the only threads I read since I "came back". There, an extra bit of information for you.

[Nichi]

Now you are just contradicting yourself. They are either verifiable or not. Speaking of clash of methodologies, what is your methodology anyway? How did you verify the validity of Ellen's, or Michael's or your own experiences?
For me the statement that it's "Ellen's experiences" does not validate her "experiences". The only verifiable thing is that she had those experiences, because I trust that she is not lying, but that says nothing about their validity.

If I would come one day and tell you that I saw an alien, you would say: "ok, that is your experience and I respect that, but show me some proof". You would not start to believe that there are aliens. My stance towards the whole toltec tradition, and spiritual movements in general, is the same. You have your experiences that I personally cannot verify (and also billions of other humans), and all of my experiences point me to the exact opposite conclusions.

Debate and argument are pretty useless endeavors to me. I don't have the desire to engage in them, even to be polite.

You have made your point, if I understand it correctly. And that would seem to be that you do not experience thus-and-so, therefore, thus-and-so does not exist. And if someone tells you that it exists, someone will have to prove it to you. What if someone didn't sign that contract with you, though? What if someone felt no need at all to 'prove' anything to you?

It doesn't really matter to me what you believe or accept, except inasmuch as you might expect that I comply. Then we have a problem -- just as much a problem as if some proselytizer of christianity came to the door. The anvil of "jesus", the anvil of "science", the anvil of "atheism": they're all the same thing to me. Someone insists that I adopt their worldview.

No one is shoving "toltec" or "shamanism" or "spiritism" down your throat. However, I could see how a disbelief in those things would make being in this forum difficult. You're surrounded by dreamers, and even the most scientific ones are dreamers. Indeed, apply critical thinking. That is wise. Only you can decide for yourself what you accept or don't accept.  What next, though? Do you expect or wish that we all argue with you, like hordes of sorcerors and magicians piling down the hills to your house? With torches?  <<--Rhetorical questions. In any case, it's not my cuppa to do so.

[Nichi]

It just happened because I didn't get around to formulate what I came here to say yet.

Please do, Rudi.  Say what you came to say.

[Jahn]

Catch my plane tomarow, unlikely I will be on again, for a week. In the mean time I'll contemplate the best way to explain my answer to Michael's beak of the Eagle question. Funny I catch a plane tomarow and today we went to the Pittsburgh Aviary. Sweet dreams.

You are living a nice dream Nick.
You are living your life.

[Jahn]

No one is shoving "toltec" or "shamanism" or "spiritism" down your throat.

Yes, that is how it works here, everyone is welcome with their ideas and opinions, we may argue about them, but all members are equally welcome.

 However, I could see how a disbelief in those things would make being in this forum difficult. You're surrounded by dreamers, and even the most scientific ones are dreamers. Indeed, apply critical thinking. That is wise.

Surrounded by Toltec warriors, what can a man do?

[Jahn]

"What we perceive as reality is only a canvas waiting for us to draw upon it any picture we want. Anything is possible, from bending spoons with the power of the mind to the phantasmagoric events experienced by Castaneda during his encounters with the Yaqui brujo don Juan, for magic is our birthright, no more or less miraculous than our ability to compute the reality we want when we are in our dreams.
Indeed, even our most fundamental notions about reality become suspect, for in a holographic universe, as Pribram has pointed out, even random events would have to be seen as based on holographic principles and therefore determined. Synchronicities or meaningful coincidences suddenly makes sense, and everything in reality would have to be seen as a metaphor, for even the most haphazard events would express some underlying symmetry. "

[Firestarter]

Hey rudi I can only share experiences and that is that. I cannot say and would not say "believe cause my experience says this is so.' Like say with ghosts, if I had never had an experience, then I would be skeptical of other peoples claims. I am still skeptical when people make a claim. They might be lying, they might have imagined something which is a ghost, or perhaps they really encountered one. The only experiences I can validate is my own cause I was in the thick of it. And like the communcation from my mother, could someone have paged a five, right when I woke up, on the day she died? I find this very hard to believe, thus I believe it was her, somehow, someway. Also because of what my ex experienced right before the page came in.

it does seem you went to some lengths to have your own experiences, and they did not come to fruition. I can understand having doubts on things. I do all the time. Like what you said about assemblage point. I have never 'seen or felt' it so I dont know if it exists myself. Someone however may have a different experience with this. I have had dreams of the double, and for myself I feel this validated. The only thing I can think of, for you, if you are looking for experience and validation, is to gesture spirit. Ask to get some validation. I dont see why it would not happen for you. But that is what I would do to see if something could manifest for you.

[Muffin]

How about Iran, Juhani?

It's funny how, out of 5+ reasons I left Estonia, you singled out one that fits your narrative and conveniently ignored the others.
Also interesting that you did not mention the fact that the biggest reason I left Brazil and came back to Europe was because i had serious health problems. You conveniently forgot that, because it does not fit your narrative.

If you decide to gossip about me, at least have the courtesy of presenting the whole story, not just bits and pieces taken out of context.
Or at least don't present your speculations as facts.

[Nichi]

How about Iran, Juhani?

It's funny how, out of 5+ reasons I left Estonia, you singled out one that fits your narrative and conveniently ignored the others.
Also interesting that you did not mention the fact that the biggest reason I left Brazil and came back to Europe was because i had serious health problems. You conveniently forgot that, because it does not fit your narrative.

If you decide to gossip about me, at least have the courtesy of presenting the whole story, not just bits and pieces taken out of context.
Or at least don't present your speculations as facts.

Rudi, tell us what happened.

[Firestarter]

How about Iran, Juhani?

It's funny how, out of 5+ reasons I left Estonia, you singled out one that fits your narrative and conveniently ignored the others.
Also interesting that you did not mention the fact that the biggest reason I left Brazil and came back to Europe was because i had serious health problems. You conveniently forgot that, because it does not fit your narrative.

If you decide to gossip about me, at least have the courtesy of presenting the whole story, not just bits and pieces taken out of context.
Or at least don't present your speculations as facts.

Rudi, definitely if this is not your experience what Juhani says we welcome you to clear it up. It certainly is easy to misunderstand anothers experience. You will always be welcome here regardless to any doubts you have on anything, just so you know.

[Nichi]

I haven't said this here because I know that Rudi already knows that I've missed him here, and want to hear what he has been through. I've told him so, a while back. I've been happy to see him posting, and have hopes that maybe he's ready to share the events since he almost joined the ayahuasca ceremony. (I only note that because that's where he left off in his "Path" thread.) And yes, of course, he is welcome.  In my mind, he's part of everything here, even in his absence.

[erik]

How about Iran, Juhani?

It's funny how, out of 5+ reasons I left Estonia, you singled out one that fits your narrative and conveniently ignored the others.
Also interesting that you did not mention the fact that the biggest reason I left Brazil and came back to Europe was because i had serious health problems. You conveniently forgot that, because it does not fit your narrative.

If you decide to gossip about me, at least have the courtesy of presenting the whole story, not just bits and pieces taken out of context.
Or at least don't present your speculations as facts.

Let us hear the whole story. I don't remember you mentioning any health problems and neither does Tiina. Upon return, you had dropped quite few kilos, demonstrated your machete and told how much your physical performance had improved.

However, I do remember you complaining quite a bit about Estonia and how people do business here and how that is not quite like what you are used to. Similarly, people in Barzil who you thought were "green" and/or "spiritual" did not turn out to be what you expected.

[Muffin]

Rudi, definitely if this is not your experience what Juhani says we welcome you to clear it up. It certainly is easy to misunderstand anothers experience.

Why would I? Obviously Juhani remembers things differently than I do. He has no evidence to his claim and I don't have evidence to mine.
 Why would you accept my experience (my word) over Juhani's? And if it's not a matter of "accepting," then why should I bother "clearing up" things?
Just to engage in a "I said, you said, he said" arguments?

We already established that everybody's experience is valid and sacred.

Just as you said, it's easy to misunderstand another's experiences, and that's why I see it as posturing (at best) when others try to "fill in" (Juhani) or post vague, ominous prophecies based on a few distorted and/or false facts (Michael).

[Firestarter]

if you say Juhanis ccounting is incorrect i accept tht as true and that your experience is different than he said.