Author Topic: David Bohm on reality  (Read 1679 times)

Jahn

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Re: David Bohm on reality
« Reply #45 on: July 20, 2014, 08:52:34 PM »
following the philosophy of Toltecs, the one where you discard reason as bad, made me alienated with the people around me and the reality in which I live. I look around me and what I see is that everything I touch, perceive and do is enhanced and made better if I apply reason and critical thinking.

Of course we should use reason and critical thinking. No Toltec would discard reason as bad. That is a silly idea and I have never heard about it.

It is rather so that Toltecs put reason and critical thinking were it should be, dealing with Tonal. To deal properly with Tonal is an essential part of the warrior life. Kris Raphael had a mantra back at the Toltec Nagual Forum:
One must clean, clear, strengthen and heal the Tonal.

Myself being very tired of Nagual experiences in the early 2000's once asked Kris if we couldn't have a Toltec Tonal Forum  :)

Reason and critical thinking is very good but takes us only that far. On our way to infinity, or the stars (or whatever path we travel) we need more senses than reason, senses that require other centra than the mental brain calculator.



Jahn, your statements presuppose that assemblage points exists. They might to you, but I have seen no evidence for it.

When Carlos Castaneda wrote his books in the late 1960's and early 1970's it was time for everybody to take part of concepts that had been secret for many thousand years.

One trick Don Juan used when Carlos arrived was to kick Carlos into 2nd attention. Don Juan made this transition possible with a firm hit on the location of the assemblage point.

One problem with being in the 2nd attention - is btw the same problem when being high on a psychoactive drug - is that it is difficult to remember all experiences when one is returning to 1st attention.

This difficulty comes from the different set of senses in the 2nd versus the 1st attention. It is like we talk english in the 1st attention but everything is said in Chinese (a language that we are not familiar with) in the 2nd attention.


Offline Muffin

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Re: David Bohm on reality
« Reply #46 on: July 21, 2014, 12:52:46 AM »
From where came that? That I should say that you're a coward and so on.


The most used painkiller and anesthetize in health care today is obtained from nature, and well known for before modern science. Morphine with the name from the god of dreams Morpheus.

"Opium contains approximately 12% morphine, an alkaloid, which is frequently processed chemically to produce heroin for the illegal drug trade and for legal medicinal use in some countries. The latex also includes the alkaloid codeine and its similarly structured cousin thebaine. It also contains non-analgesic alkaloids such as papaverine and noscapine." Wiki



Another painkiller used by the old Greek and the Cherokee is Salicyclic acid, found in the tree Salix alba



The Cherokee and other Native Americans used an infusion of the bark for fever and other medicinal purposes for centuries.[12] The medicinal part of the plant is the inner bark and was used as a pain reliever for a variety of ailments. Wiki

The native indians in the Amazona went out in the bush and asked the plants what they could be used for. The number of useful herbs in the Amazonas is to me unknown, but everyone knows about the Curare which is a mix, mainly from the family Loganiaceae.

Ah the famous Salicylic acid, that the Cherokee discovered after they went out and talked to the plants! Are you serious?

Of course they knew about the beneficial effects of the plants, but they didn't know why it was beneficial. We humans are great to antropomorfize everything we don't understand. Back then it was because a being imbued these plants with his essence. Now we know it's the Salicylic acid, we don't need to reference any god anymore to explain it.

Speaking of the Amazon, there are also countless plants that are poisonous. The primitive people learnt which are beneficial and which you should avoid by living between them for thousands of years, through trial and error and by teaching their kids "don't eat this plants because you'll die". They didn't understand it but they had to explain it somehow. This powerful organ called our brain, specifically the neocortex, craves explanayion for everything, that's what separates us from other species. We needed and explanation and that was the best we could come up with. See the trend? The plants spoke to us. Every time we don't understand something we stick human properties to them. They made them behave as humans, because that is what they "understood".

Now we know exactly what substance causes hallucinations, we don't need spirits and talking plants to explain them.

Every time the 2nd attention or seeing is mentioned, I get the feeling that we're talking about something we don't know yet and we are pulling mythical stories out of our asses yo explain them.
Our brains evolved to do just that, and the more we learn about the world the less stories we need to invent.

Fo me this reality, this universe, is much more exciting than anything described in the toltec tradition (the famous 2nd and 3rd attention).
"The result of the manifestation is in exact proportion to the force of striving received from the shock." -Gurdjieff, Belzebub's Tales to his grandson

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Offline Muffin

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Re: David Bohm on reality
« Reply #47 on: July 21, 2014, 12:57:49 AM »
Ig nok pengal itfal insuggafirt!
You are just one big bully. I'm still unimpressed.
"The result of the manifestation is in exact proportion to the force of striving received from the shock." -Gurdjieff, Belzebub's Tales to his grandson

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Offline Nick

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Re: David Bohm on reality
« Reply #48 on: July 21, 2014, 02:25:58 AM »
I love philosophy, and science, and I still explore mystical experience. I don't see how or why it matters what science can or can not do. I look forward to the day when science has a rigorous explanation for how mystical experience works.

Let me ask you rudi. When science can explain the mystical what would that change about my mystical exploration? Would I stop meditating, would I stop dreaming and stalking myself? Even if they said that everything I was doing was all an excersize of the imagination, I would say, it is an excersize that has still brought me greater joy and meaning than anything else in my life. If this exploration doesn't bring you that meaning and joy then perhaps it isn't for you. If science could use machines to create these experiences for me, I might try out from time to time, doubt it would give me what I'm looking for, since what I need is to be able to self-generate these experiences, but perhaps science would show me how to make that easier. How ever I look at it, sciences exploration of these issues is welcome in my book, but it would change little to nothing for me.

At the end of the day the question is; what brings your heart a depth of meaning and joy unrivaled by anything else, nothing matters more in a world divided into moment of time.
"As long as we confuse the myriad forms of the divine lila with reality, without perceiving the unity of Brahman underlying all these forms, we are under the spell of maya..."
 -Fritjof Capra, The Tao of Physics: An Exploration of the Parallels between Modern Physics and Eastern Mysticism

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Re: David Bohm on reality
« Reply #49 on: July 21, 2014, 04:25:11 AM »
rudi there is probably a lot i believe that you dont. i have practiced astrology for fiteen years, and i have even debated some atheists on it, quite civilally, and pretty much how i explained it, is astrology is an art, not a science. i took astronomy in college and if i read about something with the stars, i will look at it from both angles. so for spirituality i would say the same thing. it is an art not  a science. i know there are many who put the spiritual first above science, but many do not. the dalai lama even made the comment if science disproves an aspect of buddhism, then buddhism will change. but many things science isnt going to explain. it has explained a great deal, and many have walked away from various religions because of it. creation stories fall apart, no evidence of great flood, etc. but science is still learning. the tests you were showing which may have caused some dreams, doesnt explain why we dream. science hasnt explained my encounters with ghosts. science has not been able to explain how my mother communicated with me on the day she died. there is still a lot it cannot explain for me which is personal.
"A warrior doesn't seek anything for his solace, nor can he possibly leave anything to chance. A warrior actually affects the outcome of events by the force of his awareness and his unbending intent." - don Juan

Offline Muffin

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Re: David Bohm on reality
« Reply #50 on: July 21, 2014, 05:05:52 AM »
rudi there is probably a lot i believe that you dont. i have practiced astrology for fiteen years, and i have even debated some atheists on it, quite civilally, and pretty much how i explained it, is astrology is an art, not a science. i took astronomy in college and if i read about something with the stars, i will look at it from both angles. so for spirituality i would say the same thing. it is an art not  a science. i know there are many who put the spiritual first above science, but many do not. the dalai lama even made the comment if science disproves an aspect of buddhism, then buddhism will change. but many things science isnt going to explain. it has explained a great deal, and many have walked away from various religions because of it. creation stories fall apart, no evidence of great flood, etc. but science is still learning. the tests you were showing which may have caused some dreams, doesnt explain why we dream. science hasnt explained my encounters with ghosts. science has not been able to explain how my mother communicated with me on the day she died. there is still a lot it cannot explain for me which is personal.

Umm, about why we dream. Actually neuroscientists have some pretty good hypotheses about the why too. I won't go into it, but the "why" science is proposing is more awesome than the fantasy world of the double.

You fall in the fallacy of believing that only because today we can't explain something, we'll never be able to. Our history shows that it is always a hasty and unfounded conclusion.

And, please, give me a break with the dalai lama, ghosts and dead people. All we have is anecdotes about them that are not verifiable.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2014, 05:08:54 AM by Muffin »
"The result of the manifestation is in exact proportion to the force of striving received from the shock." -Gurdjieff, Belzebub's Tales to his grandson

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Re: David Bohm on reality
« Reply #51 on: July 21, 2014, 05:09:07 AM »
why are you so upset with everyone here?
"A warrior doesn't seek anything for his solace, nor can he possibly leave anything to chance. A warrior actually affects the outcome of events by the force of his awareness and his unbending intent." - don Juan

Offline Muffin

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Re: David Bohm on reality
« Reply #52 on: July 21, 2014, 05:15:16 AM »
why are you so upset with everyone here?

What makes you think I am upset?
"The result of the manifestation is in exact proportion to the force of striving received from the shock." -Gurdjieff, Belzebub's Tales to his grandson

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Re: David Bohm on reality
« Reply #53 on: July 21, 2014, 05:30:58 AM »
you seem angry with yourself you originally believed in the toltec, now you dont -like not believing in the double and assemblage point anymore. and when you see us here still discussing it, you seem angry we still believe in it. its just the impression i am getting from the tone of posts.
"A warrior doesn't seek anything for his solace, nor can he possibly leave anything to chance. A warrior actually affects the outcome of events by the force of his awareness and his unbending intent." - don Juan

Jahn

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Re: David Bohm on reality
« Reply #54 on: July 21, 2014, 05:35:19 AM »
Ah the famous Salicylic acid, that the Cherokee discovered after they went out and talked to the plants! Are you serious?

Yes, but it was not the Cherokee that was out asking the plants. If you read my post carefully (as you should read any scientific paper or serious post here) you can see that I mentioned the native indians in the Amazonas together with "asking the plants". Is this approach (to talk with plants) alien to you?

You could read more about this "asking the plants" from Alberto Villoldo, a scientist that went deep into the Amazonas.

He has also been a co-writer of the very interesting book:

Power Up Your Brain: The Neuroscience of Enlightenment (hardcover) written together with with David Perlmutter; ISBN 978-1-4019-2817-9

In that book Villodo says that there are several substances that may inhibit dementia, among these substances he mention curcurmin. But he also says that there are plants in the Amazonas that have beneficial effects on brain degeneration, however these substances cannot be available until these substances have undergone the traditional refinement and medical tests.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2014, 06:10:11 AM by Jahn »

Jahn

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Re: David Bohm on reality
« Reply #55 on: July 21, 2014, 05:43:17 AM »
The primitive people learnt which are beneficial and which you should avoid by living between them for thousands of years, through trial and error and by teaching their kids "don't eat this plants because you'll die". They didn't understand it but they had to explain it somehow.

I got the feeling that you use "primitive" in a negative association. To be honest, I think our ancestors were more advanced in their relation to nature than the modern man ever will be.

There are kids in London that never have seen a cow in real life.
There are politicians that deny global warming.
There are entertainment on TV all the time, just so people do not react and argue, etc.

Our ancestors had a real close relation to the environment they lived in (the unpolluted nature). The Indian natives honored the animal that they hunted, by wearing their skin and take their names.

When did we honor the hen or the cow for all the food they bring us?

Of course some knowledge came from trial and error, not all people or tribes have had the ability to talk with plants. But to be honest, how much time would a native indian have? If there are 500 species out there and you need one, should you start 500 trials? On your tribe population of 50 people? Imagine instead a situation when a family member has a serious infection and are about to die before your eyes. You run out in the bush with the aim to find something that might cure the disease and spirit leads you to a plants that might help. So you return with that plant and mother prepares it for the patient.

Now the Vikings for instance knew to carry dried lingonberries when they sailed across the world. The sailors of the 16th century did not, so the later sailors got Scurvy (Scurvy is a disease resulting from a deficiency of vitamin C). The dried lingonberries contain vitamin C, and the Vikings in the 900th century and later, avoided that disease.

Wiki on Scurvy:
History
 
Scurvy was documented as a disease by Hippocrates,[16][17] and Egyptians have recorded its symptoms as early as 1550 BC.[18] The knowledge that consuming foods containing vitamin C is a cure for scurvy has been repeatedly rediscovered and forgotten into the early 20th century.[19]
 
Early modern era
 
"In the 13th century, the Crusaders frequently suffered from scurvy. In the 1497 expedition of Vasco de Gama, the curative effects of citrus fruit were known.[19] In 1536, the French explorer Jacques Cartier, exploring the St. Lawrence River, used the local natives' knowledge to save his men who were dying of scurvy. He boiled the needles of the arbor vitae tree (Eastern White Cedar) to make a tea that was later shown to contain 50 mg of vitamin C per 100 grams.[20][21] Such treatments were not available aboard ship, where the disease was most common.
 
Between 1500 and 1800, it has been estimated that scurvy killed at least two million sailors.[22] Jonathan Lamb wrote: "In 1499, Vasco da Gama lost 116 of his crew of 170; In 1520, Magellan lost 208 out of 230;...all mainly to scurvy."[23]"
« Last Edit: July 21, 2014, 06:53:45 AM by Jahn »

Offline Nichi

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Re: David Bohm on reality
« Reply #56 on: July 21, 2014, 06:23:42 AM »
And, please, give me a break with ..... ghosts and dead people. All we have is anecdotes about them that are not verifiable.


But they are verifiable: they are Ellen's experiences.


Not here, not there, but everywhere - always right before your eyes.
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Re: David Bohm on reality
« Reply #57 on: July 21, 2014, 07:12:27 AM »
Umm, about why we dream. Actually neuroscientists have some pretty good hypotheses about the why too. I won't go into it, but the "why" science is proposing is more awesome than the fantasy world of the double.

You fall in the fallacy of believing that only because today we can't explain something, we'll never be able to. Our history shows that it is always a hasty and unfounded conclusion.

And, please, give me a break with the dalai lama, ghosts and dead people. All we have is anecdotes about them that are not verifiable.

My experiences with ghosts are this. One when a child and I played with a ouija board with a friend. We actually made a homemade ouija board on the back of a gameboard and used a mayonaise jar. The jar moved to the letters and numbers. And things moved in the room, like my toys. And we also experiences hot and cold spots in the room.

The other was at nanas. When I was grown and had my son. I was in the bedroom and heard the tv on. I was sure I had turned off the tv in the den. I began to hear the rocking chair rocking back and forth. Then the tv turned off. I ran out of the room to wake up nana and get her. When we went into the room, the tv was turned back on.

The experience with my mother I just recently wrote about. Before she died when she was sick, I spoke of getting a pager. I told her she could punch in the number and then put *5 cause that was her birthday. I never did get the pager. On the day she died, my ex had his pager, he was with me. We woke up after taking a nap. He got a page right when we woke up, it only said *5. I got a jolt, I knew it was her. I told my ex the story what I told her, and he said when he had been laying there, he felt something 'rush through him' when he was laying down, right before we both had gotten up.

Science cannot explain those experiences to me, and they are personal. And I can never prove they were ghosts, or my mother. But for myself, I 'know' what they were. And this of course doesnt explain dreams which have come true, or other ones.

This does not mean in anyway I shun science. I just got done reading The Quantum and the Lotus, which is about Buddhism and Science. So I do look to science for answers, as well as to spiritual explanations too. But you have to understand we in here have had experiences which can be very powerful, and we're not complete doofises, we do have an inner knowing what they are. When the hair stands up on the back of neck, you get that odd feeling in the pit of stomach. Its all spirit, in the end.
"A warrior doesn't seek anything for his solace, nor can he possibly leave anything to chance. A warrior actually affects the outcome of events by the force of his awareness and his unbending intent." - don Juan

Offline Nick

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Re: David Bohm on reality
« Reply #58 on: July 21, 2014, 01:39:19 PM »
What I don't get is why Rudi came back to a place like this, to try and debunk things. It leads me to the thought that perhaps he didn't pay much attention to the type of people who are on this forum. That he has no idea what this place is, that he never understood the material in those "cleverly worded books".

Are you seeking something Rudi? Cause what your doing in this thread isn't going to make anyone here convert to a science based outlook on life. Your efforts in this line would be entirely fruitless.

Catch my plane tomarow, unlikely I will be on again, for a week. In the mean time I'll contemplate the best way to explain my answer to Michael's beak of the Eagle question. Funny I catch a plane tomarow and today we went to the Pittsburgh Aviary. Sweet dreams.
"As long as we confuse the myriad forms of the divine lila with reality, without perceiving the unity of Brahman underlying all these forms, we are under the spell of maya..."
 -Fritjof Capra, The Tao of Physics: An Exploration of the Parallels between Modern Physics and Eastern Mysticism

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Re: David Bohm on reality
« Reply #59 on: July 21, 2014, 03:42:54 PM »
 :)

its silly

 

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