Topic: David Bohm on reality

[Jahn]

What he doesn't know, is that his mystical side has never left him, and even now sits beside him, except he can't see it. But that won't last long, because the dam will burst, and the world will collapse in such a dramatic way he will be swept into the chasm. Then he will struggle to recall all the navigational advice he read on this forum. The only question, is when?

More astute observations, actually beyond my own.

I am happy to have met Rudi.

[Muffin]

Jahn, I'm not sure you aware of, but there were experiments done where scientists managed to erase mories of rats without cutting parts out of the brain, simply by electrically resetting parts of it - parts that they suspected that are where memories are stored.

They did it by teaching certain tricks to the rats and then resetting the brain. The memories didn't come back, the rats had to learn the tricks again.

There is also evidence that the brain is capable of restructuring itself in case of damage. In many cases if the center of hearing is damaged another part of the brain will take over its function.

Are you familiar with the Human Brain project? It is a project initiated this year, with funds over 2 billion euros, to map the connections of the human brain. Much like the DNA project.

Our still limited understanding of the DNA told us much more about human body and gave us much better tools to treat diseases, for example. Had we followed the mystical knowledge of our ancestors, we would still be bleeding people for any number of diseases or cast demons out of people.

I think it's a bit facetious to say that we understand everything about our brain, when we haven't even taken a good look at it.
Religion and mystical tradition already knows what emotions, thoughts, feelings are. My stance is that we simply don't know, and now, thanks to advances in technology, we can start looking into it.

As one would expect, once scientists make the discoveries you will find every kind of ways to fit them to your narrative of energetic body, astral, double, soul etc.

As for your remark about the brain being hologram I don't see how it is relevant. There is a similar theory that the universe could be a hologram, but scientist don't use it in the sense you would use it. They are not implying that a universe is not real, or that we create the universe trough our perception.

[Jahn]

Our still limited understanding of the DNA told us much more about human body and gave us much better tools to treat diseases, for example. Had we followed the mystical knowledge of our ancestors, we would still be bleeding people for any number of diseases or cast demons out of people.

I think it's a bit facetious to say that we understand everything about our brain, when we haven't even taken a good look at it.
Religion and mystical tradition already knows what emotions, thoughts, feelings are. My stance is that we simply don't know, and now, thanks to advances in technology, we can start looking into it.

As one would expect, once scientists make the discoveries you will find every kind of ways to fit them to your narrative of energetic body, astral, double, soul etc.

As for your remark about the brain being hologram I don't see how it is relevant. There is a similar theory that the universe could be a hologram, but scientist don't use it in the sense you would use it. They are not implying that a universe is not real, or that we create the universe trough our perception.

Read this dear Rudi, and contemplate it.

"Last, they realized that the old seers had aligned themselves with an upward shift of the assemblage point and to a position of ration.  Everything, so the old seers taught, should be understood, written and rationalized.  Everything was to be justified by ration.   And in the extreme case, ration actually split off from the assemblage point to dominate it.  This was the dark side of the predator that evolved a way to control humans through instilling its mind and mythologies into the human band through ration."

[Muffin]

More astute observations, actually beyond my own.

I am happy to have met Rudi.

Astute? Michael's statements are vague and interspred with some vague references from my past to make it sound credible. The fact is that he could have wrote this very same thing years ago and it would have "resonated". He could have wrote the same thing to another person, change the few bits personal about me and it would have resonated. Pretty much like a horoscope does.

Today's horoscope:

Some enlightening conversations could occur today with a partner, Libra, possibly romantic, possibly career-related. New methods of operation could come to your attention, perhaps involving modern technology that could speed up the process and increase your income. Bear in mind that some of what you hear may not be feasible for a while. Other ideas may never be practicable. Remember to remain objective and check out the facts.

I'm surprised at how you seem to know more about me, my life and  my "path", than I do. It is also somewhat embarrasing to know that you regard me as coward and somebody who just can't "see" things.

[Muffin]

Read this dear Rudi, and contemplate it.

"Last, they realized that the old seers had aligned themselves with an upward shift of the assemblage point and to a position of ration.  Everything, so the old seers taught, should be understood, written and rationalized.  Everything was to be justified by ration.   And in the extreme case, ration actually split off from the assemblage point to dominate it.  This was the dark side of the predator that evolved a way to control humans through instilling its mind and mythologies into the human band through ration."

Jahn, your statements presuppose that assemblage points exists. They might to you, but I have seen no evidence for it.
As a scientist yourself, wouldn't you agree that I should accept only things that have evidence before drawing conclusions? All I have is a few books and people telling me anecdotes about it.

Gravity I can test, many theories I can go out and see their concrete effects on our lives. Until now, following the philosophy of Toltecs, the one where you discard reason as bad, made me alienated with the people around me and the reality in which I live. I look around me and what I see is that everything I touch, perceive and do is enhanced and made better if I apply reason and critical thinking.

Something I was not doing before, and yes, I was feeling lost and miserable.

[Nichi]

Gravity I can test, many theories I can go out and see their concrete effects on our lives. Until now, following the philosophy of Toltecs, the one where you discard reason as bad, made me alienated with the people around me and the reality in which I live. I look around me and what I see is that everything I touch, perceive and do is enhanced and made better if I apply reason and critical thinking.

In the lore of the Toltecs, one walks in both worlds -- the Toltec's world and the world of reason, the nagual and the tonal. I'm remembering a passage of how pleased Don Juan was to look so good in a suit. Of how well he could navigate the 'ordinary' world of the tonal.

You're mastering the tonal - what's wrong with that? (Nothing!) I would take that pressure of seeking the 'mystical' off myself, and if the experience or awareness of the nagual returns, it returns, as a natural part of your path. If it doesn't, it doesn't.

[Firestarter]

rudi nothing wrong with not falling for bullshit. science can ground us yes. however, it cant reach areas which are mysterious. it might one day and then it might not. but just like say proving god or spirit. aint ever going to happen but doesnt mean spirit doesnt exist. i dont think youre a coward. just trying to stay grounded. but dont lose a foot in the spiritual completely cause science is not going to satisfy everything as you may believe.

[Nichi]

In the lore of the Toltecs, one walks in both worlds -- the Toltec's world and the world of reason, the nagual and the tonal. I'm remembering a passage of how pleased Don Juan was to look so good in a suit. Of how well he could navigate the 'ordinary' world of the tonal.

You're mastering the tonal - what's wrong with that? (Nothing!) I would take that pressure of seeking the 'mystical' off myself, and if the experience or awareness of the nagual returns, it returns, as a natural part of your path. If it doesn't, it doesn't.

Edited to add: My presumption in saying this is my impression all these years that you would not have been the stunning dreamer we have known you to be if the nagual wasn't with you strongly. That which is yours is yours. If you gave yourself the time to not be pressured by it, then it will surely make itself known to you again. That's my belief, anyway.

If you do get that glimmer, then it will be a matter of your Intent how you do or don't implement your findings.

As for "science", I don't believe you will be able to duplicate or replicate or even falsify the experiences of others, any more than one could yours. So therein probably lies a clash of methodologies.

[runningstream]

"The reason why science is much better suited at discovering how the world works is not because things are what "we think".
Scientists make discoveries, they make a hypothesis based on said discovery, then they actually go and try to disprove it as hard as they can. If the additional evidence contradicts the initial theory, they adjust it and start over from there. It us a process where we follow the evidence to a conclusion, through analysis and trial and error.

I'm sure you know this.

Faith based "sciences" however take a theory and try to make the evidence fit their theory. They say "this is what consciousness is", then they set out to prove it, using a process of manipulating, discarding or simply ignoring evidence.
"

Muffin



this method requires focussing in on data specifically to exclusion actually

probably

the opposite of direct awareness required for seeing

therefore the subject is not up for grabs

[runningstream]

i will tell you about dreaming then

once i woke up behind a refrigerator in a house

upon becoming aware that i was dreaming and even aware itself

i found myself staring at a sticker which i think said something like

"Achtung!  Attention !" the words were very hard to work out in that state .

if you have ever awoken behind a refrigerator captured in the details of such

an exquisite narrowing of focus then you will see what i mean



the dreamer is an inquisitive little bugger yet must continue to flow on

[Muffin]

As for "science", I don't believe you will be able to duplicate or replicate or even falsify the experiences of others, any more than one could yours. So therein probably lies a clash of methodologies.

False. I can tell you with great confidence what will happen when you stick your hand in fire. Not everything we experience is up for interpretation.
The only experiences that science can not predict are the mystical, spiritual, divine. Because we don't know yet what actually goes on. Yet.

In Japan a group of scientist were able to record dreams of test subjects and extract images from it. If they can do that, nothing prevents them to stimulate your brain to make you dream of certain things.
This suggests yo me that being a stunning dreamer is not such a big accomplishment you believe to be.
I'm more than my dreams, stop calling me a spiritual just because I had a few extraordinary dreams.

The same thing with feelings. Neuroscientists linked emotions to particular areas of the brain. They could trigger certain emotions just by applying electrical current to your brain. Facebook can do that without even opening your brain. :p
Emotions are becoming not so mystical after all.

 Just like 400 years ago we thought that the planets orbit around the Sun thanks to some mystical force governed by an unknowable entity (God).
We don't need God anymore to explain the orbit of the planets because we figured it out and proof of that is that you can call a person on the other side of the planet.

We are bringing the nagual, the unknowable into the realm of things that we know. It is called learning.

[runningstream]

what matters in duality is how what and why

that means

spiritually heart journey and awareness of those

expansion is not the same as contraction

and being able to hold both simultaneously is a path

yet im not sure science has what it takes

as empirical data is heavy

the reason Carlos was mocked by Don Juan

and the reason reason can't float the boat without the water

i guess it depends which side you would like to prove

yet it will probably left with a void in reasoning

[Nichi]

The only experiences that science can not predict are the mystical, spiritual, divine.

Those were the experiences to which I referred.

[Michael]

Ig nok pengal itfal insuggafirt!

[Jahn]

I'm surprised at how you seem to know more about me, my life and  my "path", than I do. It is also somewhat embarrasing to know that you regard me as coward and somebody who just can't "see" things.

From where came that? That I should say that you're a coward and so on.

Our still limited understanding of the DNA told us much more about human body and gave us much better tools to treat diseases, for example. Had we followed the mystical knowledge of our ancestors, we would still be bleeding people for any number of diseases or cast demons out of people.

The most used painkiller and anesthetize in health care today is obtained from nature, and well known for before modern science. Morphine with the name from the god of dreams Morpheus.

"Opium contains approximately 12% morphine, an alkaloid, which is frequently processed chemically to produce heroin for the illegal drug trade and for legal medicinal use in some countries. The latex also includes the alkaloid codeine and its similarly structured cousin thebaine. It also contains non-analgesic alkaloids such as papaverine and noscapine." Wiki



Another painkiller used by the old Greek and the Cherokee is Salicyclic acid, found in the tree Salix alba



The Cherokee and other Native Americans used an infusion of the bark for fever and other medicinal purposes for centuries.[12] The medicinal part of the plant is the inner bark and was used as a pain reliever for a variety of ailments. Wiki

The native indians in the Amazona went out in the bush and asked the plants what they could be used for. The number of useful herbs in the Amazonas is to me unknown, but everyone knows about the Curare which is a mix, mainly from the family Loganiaceae.