Author Topic: WE'RE STUFFED!!!  (Read 32083 times)

Offline Michael

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Re: WE'RE STUFFED!!!
« Reply #1875 on: August 16, 2013, 08:46:24 AM »
I can only assume the muted response from Western countries to the massacre in Egypt, is that they are more terrified by Egypt becoming another powerful radical Islamic country. It may be horrific, but if the Army can't stem the tide of Islamicisation in Egypt, then it will go the way of Turkey, and that is a far more serious worry for the democratic West.

But two things get in the way. Turkey is still a democracy, and the Muslim Brotherhood was democratically elected, although what has happened in Turkey is a worry - democracy is not that compatible with Islam, or leaders who want to retain power by riding off the religious support.

The other problem, is that what the Egyptian army has done is likely to make the situation worse rather than better.

erik

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Egypt
« Reply #1876 on: August 16, 2013, 09:32:52 PM »
A few thoughts:

1) Some of Egypt’s problems as well as those of other ‘Arab Spring’ countries have a long and complicated cultural-economic-political history. Cordesman has outlined them quite well here.

2) When writing about ‘Arab Spring’ and democracy in the Middle East, one inevitably clashes with the problem of consequences of free choice. By an objective measure, it is obvious the West does not like the outcomes of all/most free elections in Arab societies – e.g. HAMAS in Gaza and Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. It is not sure that what Iraqi Shia majority are doing is any more acceptable, but the choices of intervention and influence over that society have been greatly depleted by a failed war.

3) Manipulation of political lives of Muslim countries and double standards is what the US and a few other countries are continuously accused of in the Middle East.

4) From such a perspective, the quiet in the West is understandable. There was a tacit hope that democrats would by some miracle come out winners. In my mind, it is not obvious at all that democrats (if people who carried out a coup against Morsi could be called so) exist in Egypt.

5) Army in Egypt is in  charge of up to 10% of state’s economy (e.g. Army is the owner of Sharm el Sheikh resort, etc.) and it has been desperate to stay unaccountable with regard to Morsi’s emerging civilian oversight (in Mubarak’s time, military budget was handled separately from the rest of money, etc.).

6) Hence, the men in uniform seized the moment and moved against Morsi as soon as feasible. Democrats, if there were any at all, stood beside and had nothing to say about it. In a sense, we might be witnessing a counter revolution of pro-Mubarak military leadership (which West seemingly thought could be a second coming of democrats). Generals were smart enough not to resist the first revolution and sacrificed Mubarak, but they fight tooth-and-nail to maintain their own military-economic complex/fiefdom under any rule. They only had to wait - Egypt faces problems that cannot be solved any time soon.

7) The sum of these events is that Egypt is spiralling in chaos. Muslim Brotherhood has up to 20 million supporters – 25% of the population – which means they can strike back with immense force. Moreover, they have backers in Qatar and Turkey.

8) In sum, I would say that we live in times when West should rather learn to live with the changes in the Muslim societies than try to push them in desired directions. In a globalised and open society, the backlash from failed manipulations could be enormous.

Offline Michael

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Re: WE'RE STUFFED!!!
« Reply #1877 on: August 23, 2013, 07:45:13 AM »
This is pretty bloody good:
Sir Tom Stoppard's original drama, written for the 40th anniversary of Dark Side of the Moon, gets a very modern trailer.

http://www.theage.com.au/entertainment/music/pink-floyd-radio-play-gets-an-animated-trailer-20130822-2sdga.html

Offline Michael

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Re: WE'RE STUFFED!!!
« Reply #1878 on: August 25, 2013, 11:49:23 PM »
Well Juhani, what the game in Syria now? Will the US risk another deployment?

erik

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Syria's endgame is looming
« Reply #1879 on: August 26, 2013, 01:39:37 AM »
Well Juhani, what the game in Syria now? Will the US risk another deployment?

It seems that we are, slowly but steadily, approaching an endgame in Syria. Previous news about the preparations and use of chemical weapons poured in at a time when al-Assad had lost nearly 50% of his 60,000-70,000 strong mobile forces. It was December 2012. Regime was under pressure, al-Assad stayed out of public eye and we heard 5-6 times that chemical weapons were deployed causing in average 10-25 fatalities and 50-100 casualties. The use was intended as a punishment, deterrence and compensation for the lack of conventional strength.

In May-June, al-Assad's reconstituted troops launced a counter offensive in central Syria and captured Qusayr, and later - some areas in Homs. However, Saudis and Qataris responded with increased flow of weapons to rebels which led to growing rebel pressure in Damascus, north and west of the country.
By June, the country was divided like this (source: The Guardian):


On 24 July 2013, rebels launched an attack in three areas of Damascus: Jobar, Qaboun and Barzeh. Al-Assad's forces counter attacked two days later, but failed to stop rebels. The latter made, for the first time, advances within Damascus proper. Al-Qaeda-led rebels also invaded Alawite lands near Latakia and increased pressure in the north. A few weeks later we heard the news about a massive chemical attack in Damascus (near Jobar area) that took 300-1,200 lives and injured some 3,000 people.

Syrian economy is in tatters. 60% of arable land is located on rebel-held territory. Syrian currency is at 10-12% of its pre-war value. Industrial centres like Aleppo and Homs have been largely turned into ruins. Tourism has fallen by 95% (with many historical sights literally wiped out), foreign trade has dropped by 97% and is allowed only in Russian, Chinese and Iranian currencies. Unemployment level is over 50%. 4.5 million people of the population of 22 million have been displaced internally, over 100,000 killed, and 2 million have escaped to neighbouring countries.

Al-Assad seems to be on the ropes now. He can defend, but he cannot counterattack everywhere the need is as he faces nearly 100,000-strong insurgent force. Of the latter 10,000 are al-Qaeda (AQ) and 25,000-30,000 Syrian salafist battle group called Ahrar al-Sham (AS). These are the toughest, most disciplined and best equipped troops on the rebel side. They want to build Islamic state of Syria and they would likely turn their (increasingly sophisticated) weapons against the Western troops if these  ever appeared on the theatre. Nor would they be too interested in Western air strikes against al-Assad. All they want is more weapons and ammunition to push through their solution. Consequently, Western powers deal mostly with the shrinking pool of secular rebels many of whom are switching to Islamist units. Thus, the possible Western intervention seems increasingly like a questionable proposition.

What can the US and others do? There are no good options on the table:
1) decaptitation strike against al-Assad's leadership
2) puhishing strikes against the units that deployed chemical weapons
3) supplying rebels with chemical weapons detection and protections kit
4) no-fly zone (cost of establishing - US$ 0.5 bn and maintaining - US$ 1bn a month)
5) arming rebels - chances are that these weapons end up in the hands of Islamists
6) intervention - it would be a repetition of Iraq and Afghanistan

The most likely option seems to be punishing strikes with a hint of possibility of decapitation to al-Assad.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2013, 02:38:40 AM by erik »

Offline Michael

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Re: WE'RE STUFFED!!!
« Reply #1880 on: August 26, 2013, 06:39:52 PM »
Thanks Juhani. The whole thing is a worry. I think at this point we can kiss the nation of Syria goodbye. There's no way that place can be put back together.

I could say it's a vision of the future, except, I also get the feeling that this recent phase of radical Islam is reaching a closing point. Islam has worn a face of 'outsider', defiance against the march of time against the fantasy of some past glory. Essentially it has been fighting a rear-guard action against change, but new generations will find it harder to feel allegiance to this self-image of the angry man outside the fence, as they identify more and more with the global interacted world. It should all fall apart just about the time the world begins to take Climate Change seriously - about 20 years or less.

erik

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Syria
« Reply #1881 on: August 30, 2013, 08:01:14 PM »
Brits bailed out. French would like to have a UN mandate to smack Syria.
Will Obama go it alone? Traditionally, the US has valued its "freedom of action" more than legitimacy provided through UN. Now the US seems to be left alone. What next?

Offline Nichi

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Re: WE'RE STUFFED!!!
« Reply #1882 on: August 30, 2013, 08:27:46 PM »
Obama is getting strong feedback left and right to abstain ... but there's a madness afoot and I fear he won't listen. I have the same feeling I had before Bush didn't listen.
Not here, not there, but everywhere - always right before your eyes.
~Hsin Hsin Ming

Offline Michael

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Re: WE'RE STUFFED!!!
« Reply #1883 on: August 30, 2013, 09:33:33 PM »
There is a moral case, but not a legal case. The legal framework is not accepted by many in any country - it means the international agreements, but when it comes to self-preservation of nations, the international agreements are meaningless.

Obama is faced with a view that the use of mass destructive weapons by anyone on this planet must be hit on the head immediately. Nations and people must know there are severe consequences to using these weapons, otherwise their use will escalate, and that will come back to affect the US. That is the view.

I think there is much truth in that view, but I'm also aware of the truth in the Russian view of asking what did anyone gain from the interventions in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya? They also have a good point, although of course, like everyone else, they have vested interests.

So should the moral case override the legal case, simply because Russia and China will veto the legal case?

Emotionally, I feel Obama has to act. Rationally I wonder what the consequences will be. This is not the same as the Iraq situation, but the stupidity of that is still affecting international behaviour.

Russian war ships are also on the move.

Offline Nichi

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Not here, not there, but everywhere - always right before your eyes.
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erik

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Syria
« Reply #1885 on: September 03, 2013, 05:23:22 PM »
It is one of the largest humanitarian crises of all time, i.e. since 1946 when the UN was established.
Population: 22 million
7 million displaced
2 million have left the country

Offline Nichi

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Re: WE'RE STUFFED!!!
« Reply #1886 on: September 08, 2013, 11:42:59 AM »
Not here, not there, but everywhere - always right before your eyes.
~Hsin Hsin Ming

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Re: WE'RE STUFFED!!!
« Reply #1887 on: September 08, 2013, 01:06:20 PM »
"A warrior doesn't seek anything for his solace, nor can he possibly leave anything to chance. A warrior actually affects the outcome of events by the force of his awareness and his unbending intent." - don Juan

Offline Michael

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Re: WE'RE STUFFED!!!
« Reply #1888 on: September 08, 2013, 03:30:04 PM »
It is surprising that France has backed out after crowing so loudly. The Russians are posturing, but it's pretty serious posturing. Not sure what their troops are doing there - no one will be putting boots on the ground.

So it does appear to be an escalation of concern. I'd put money of the US doing something, but what I have not a clue.

Don't see any worry for the citizens of the US or Russia - they are not going to attack each other's country over Syria.

erik

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Re: WE'RE STUFFED!!!
« Reply #1889 on: September 09, 2013, 06:52:01 AM »
Just posturing with some practical considerations. Russians are, in fact, preparing to evacuate their personnel if the US decides to shift the military balance in favour of rebels. Of 100,000 rebels, some 30,000-40,000 are hardcore Islamists and would show no mercy to Russians nor to anybody supporting al-Assad.
 
Warships are the fastest (and safest) way to get one's compatriots out of harm's way.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2013, 02:50:39 PM by erik »

 

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