Topic: WE'RE STUFFED!!!

[daphne]

To those who don't live in the US, I'd say this ... you don't know the experience of being on the receiving end energetically of "Die you sucker" -- relentlessly, from multiple sectors. 

Try being a "white South African..", not to mention the Judaic roots!!      
... an excellent stalking tool if ever there was one!!   

[nichi]

Try being a "white South African..", not to mention the Judaic roots!!      
... an excellent stalking tool if ever there was one!!   

Indeed, Daphne! 

[Zamurito]

So which foot shall you chose to stand on?
We are not separate - that is true fromthe view of energy,  a universal point of view.

But man of today has his little ego and has made that pretender to the boss. The little ego is separated - and that is the truth.

So which of this is reality today - separetedness or not?

Both   

It's my opportunity to balance the relative and Absolute.

z

[Quantum Shaman]

So where is the place of pride in one's own culture, for a person dedicated to spirit?

Is there a place?

Okay, I'm going to go out on a bit of a Toltec limb here and say that I personally do not believe there IS such a place for a "warrior".  Toltec limb, like I said.

My reasoning is this:  a warrior strives to release her personal history, and to my way of *seeing*, any form of cultural pride is directly connected to some sense of "identity" that 1) has NOTHING to do with self; and 2) probably carries with it not only the baggage of one's own personal history, but the personal history of an entire nation/culture.  

When someone says to me, "I'm proud to be an American!" I generally have 2 levels of response.  On the surface level, I know what they mean, so I normally wouldn't try to contradict them.  They need that sense of Rah Rah Rah or whatever it is that swells their chest with pride, and it is not up to me to take that from them.  But at a deeper level, I wonder if they have any awareness at all that to make such a blanket statement can EASILY be misinterpreted.  Does he mean he is proud of our space program, or he is proud of our violent and often bigoted history?  

For someone on a spiritual path, it seems to me that "cultural pride" could easily be just another term for self-importance, for it has always seemed to me that a warrior is truly a man without a country in the truest sense.  To claim cultural pride may also be seen (whether correctly or misinterpreted) as a way of saying, "I'm better than you!"  And as we all know, those are fightin' words even if they are not really intended in such a manner.

So, for me the answer is in the question, Michael.    There is no place for 'cultural pride' for someone on a spiritual path, because a warrior's deepest roots are in the nagual  - where there are no boundaries,  no countries, no limitations.

Just my 2 cents worth, out here on the Toltec limb.  

[Michael]

well put QS!

2) probably carries with it not only the baggage of one's own personal history, but the personal history of an entire nation/culture.

very good point!

[Jahn]

(I'll only keep this up for a less than a day, because it's so disgusting I don't want to taint this place. But I thought it was an eye-opener, to demonstrate the primitive thread of hatred which exists in the US. And this is mild, believe me .. it can get much much worse. This is entry-level white supremacy bullshit.)

And now a day has passed by ...

[nichi]

And now a day has passed by ...

Thanks for the reminder, Jahn. Email removed.

[Angela]

Okay, I'm going to go out on a bit of a Toltec limb here and say that I personally do not believe there IS such a place for a "warrior".  Toltec limb, like I said.

My reasoning is this:  a warrior strives to release her personal history, and to my way of *seeing*, any form of cultural pride is directly connected to some sense of "identity" that 1) has NOTHING to do with self; and 2) probably carries with it not only the baggage of one's own personal history, but the personal history of an entire nation/culture.  

When someone says to me, "I'm proud to be an American!" I generally have 2 levels of response.  On the surface level, I know what they mean, so I normally wouldn't try to contradict them.  They need that sense of Rah Rah Rah or whatever it is that swells their chest with pride, and it is not up to me to take that from them.  But at a deeper level, I wonder if they have any awareness at all that to make such a blanket statement can EASILY be misinterpreted.  Does he mean he is proud of our space program, or he is proud of our violent and often bigoted history?  

For someone on a spiritual path, it seems to me that "cultural pride" could easily be just another term for self-importance, for it has always seemed to me that a warrior is truly a man without a country in the truest sense.  To claim cultural pride may also be seen (whether correctly or misinterpreted) as a way of saying, "I'm better than you!"  And as we all know, those are fightin' words even if they are not really intended in such a manner.

So, for me the answer is in the question, Michael.    There is no place for 'cultural pride' for someone on a spiritual path, because a warrior's deepest roots are in the nagual  - where there are no boundaries,  no countries, no limitations.

Just my 2 cents worth, out here on the Toltec limb.  

What do you say, when someone says, "I'm proud to be a Toltec Warrior", or "I'm proud to be a member of Soma...or TSW, or YAW, or the Girl Scouts, or the National Rifle Association".  Does it really matter?  Every single group will give you some kind of history, baggage, whatever you want to call it.  When we start using the knowledge we extract...as it  relates on a spiritual level, then we see how important it is to combine.  You can't separate them...there aren't Two worlds, there is only One.  In order for it all to work cohesively, they must be combined, and delt with equally.  You can't ignore one and expect the other to evolve.

[daphne]

What do you say, when someone says, "I'm proud to be a Toltec Warrior", or "I'm proud to be a member of Soma...or TSW, or YAW, or the Girl Scouts, or the National Rifle Association".  Does it really matter?  Every single group will give you some kind of history, baggage, whatever you want to call it.  When we start using the knowledge we extract...as it  relates on a spiritual level, then we see how important it is to combine.  You can't separate them...there aren't Two worlds, there is only One.  In order for it all to work cohesively, they must be combined, and delt with equally.  You can't ignore one and expect the other to evolve.

There is no hard-and-fast "rules" as i see it. Everyone comes to their "path" along the journey of life differently. Some, to go forward on their path, releasing history is rather imperative. For others, remembering history is. This is when we get beyond the cliche's and look to our own path with a sharp eye and open heart. 

[Quantum Shaman]

What do you say, when someone says, "I'm proud to be a Toltec Warrior", or "I'm proud to be a member of Soma...or TSW, or YAW, or the Girl Scouts, or the National Rifle Association".  Does it really matter? 

That's my point - I don't think anyone seriously on a spiritual path would need to express "pride" in any sort of group in the first place, because to "belong" to one thing would mean excluding something else.  So when Michael asked "is there a place for..." my answer was, "No, I do not see that there IS a place for cultural or 'group' pride for someone on a spiritual path."

Every single group will give you some kind of history, baggage, whatever you want to call it.

Exactly - which is why claiming "pride" in the group is rather dangerous for anyone on a spiritual path.

  When we start using the knowledge we extract...as it  relates on a spiritual level, then we see how important it is to combine.  You can't separate them...there aren't Two worlds, there is only One.  In order for it all to work cohesively, they must be combined, and delt with equally.  You can't ignore one and expect the other to evolve.

Yes,  I've said for years that there is only one world.  And yet... to use the terminology "they must be combined" and "dealt with equally" implies that there is something TO combine... which means some manner of separation has occurred.

That's precisely why I think "cultural pride" or "group pride" (whatever the group) is just an expression of self-importance, ego and a need to "belong" to something "bigger" than oneself.  Being part of something doesn't HAVE to involve attachment, though it usually does.  The moment I align myself as a Christian or a Jew, as a Republican or a Democrat, as a believer or a non-believer, I have embraced an attachment and excluded my potential for totality.

Sure, we live in a world where such attachments may be necessary or even desirable as a means to survival, but at the end of the day when a warrior strips off all attachments & stands naked before the mirror, s/he belongs to nothing and no one other than herself.

That's pretty much what I meant awhile back when I said I had declared myself a "nation of one."   

[Angela]

Quote from: Serafina on Today at 09:26:53 AM
What do you say, when someone says, "I'm proud to be a Toltec Warrior", or "I'm proud to be a member of Soma...or TSW, or YAW, or the Girl Scouts, or the National Rifle Association".  Does it really matter?

That's my point - I don't think anyone seriously on a spiritual path would need to express "pride" in any sort of group in the first place, because to "belong" to one thing would mean excluding something else.  So when Michael asked "is there a place for..." my answer was, "No, I do not see that there IS a place for cultural or 'group' pride for someone on a spiritual path."

Quote from: Serafina on Today at 09:26:53 AM
Every single group will give you some kind of history, baggage, whatever you want to call it.

Exactly - which is why claiming "pride" in the group is rather dangerous for anyone on a spiritual path.

Quote from: Serafina on Today at 09:26:53 AM
  When we start using the knowledge we extract...as it  relates on a spiritual level, then we see how important it is to combine.  You can't separate them...there aren't Two worlds, there is only One.  In order for it all to work cohesively, they must be combined, and delt with equally.  You can't ignore one and expect the other to evolve.

Yes,  I've said for years that there is only one world.  And yet... to use the terminology "they must be combined" and "dealt with equally" implies that there is something TO combine... which means some manner of separation has occurred.

That's precisely why I think "cultural pride" or "group pride" (whatever the group) is just an expression of self-importance, ego and a need to "belong" to something "bigger" than oneself.  Being part of something doesn't HAVE to involve attachment, though it usually does.  The moment I align myself as a Christian or a Jew, as a Republican or a Democrat, as a believer or a non-believer, I have embraced an attachment and excluded my potential for totality.

Sure, we live in a world where such attachments may be necessary or even desirable as a means to survival, but at the end of the day when a warrior strips off all attachments & stands naked before the mirror, s/he belongs to nothing and no one other than herself.

That's pretty much what I meant awhile back when I said I had declared myself a "nation of one."

 

Thanks Della...you make me smile 

The separation is only within the One...it's like trying to keep the oil and vinegar together...shake continually

There are endeavors in this life that we fight to fulfill.  We go into these endeavors with full awareness.  IMO, these are not attachments.  They are strategy for assimilation to further ones path.  You can still be a "nation of one" while mingling amongst the masses.

[Michael]

there is a 'controlled folly' type of pride one is allowed.

I do this often, with a special smile on my face - no one ever seems to get what it means. It allows me to experience the benefits of feeling proud to be standing in a group, to experience and enjoy the group's pride, while knowing the whole thing is bollocks.

and there is another word, or another meaning to 'pride'. a sense of having pride in being alive. but that is not group pride.

Gurdjieff had an excellent metaphor or things like group pride or any other identity issue. he described the new system of moving through the universe in a space ship. They realised one day, these inter-galactic people, that to propel the ship via one's own power, was too great a burden, for such long distances.

So instead, all they had to do was allow their ship to be pulled gravitationally by each large planet or sun roughly in the direction they wished to go. Then just before they crossed that critical threshold passed which they would be sucked into the denser gravitational power field of that planet/sun (read identity), they would refocus the ship to another planet/sun, and allow it to pull them towards it - till again, just before that critical threshold, they would re-focus again on another.

This way they used the innate attractive force of each object along their intended path, to 'pull' them through the universe, rather than self-power the whole way.

The trick was knowing when to pull out, before you inevitably donned the identity badge of the object - read group. By balancing alignment with the attractive forces in one's world, one is then able to borrow the enthusiasm of an object (like a job, a family, a nation, a religion, a sport club). That way we get to experience the world, pick out the juicy eyes of each passing energetic package, but always move on... forever moving on.

you should realise that underneath all this is a very dangerous message. It leads to becoming disconnected to our 'world' - esp our social world, but also our entire world of meaning. Juan once said, even his teachings to CC were folly. We cut ourselves off on a very deep level, till there is only one link left, our stem.

If you aren't ready for that adventure, best to go slowly, or not at all.

[erik]

It seems to me that Don Juan used his Yaqui origin the same way. He found connection to Earth (or at least got closer to Earth) through being Yaqui, but threw all accompanying baggage over board.

[erik]

Trends are made by "bad" people.

Very powerful statement that resonates in me very strongly!

[nichi]

Thought it would be nice to have some good news for a change in here. Though it will no doubt be controversial to all these branches of the government.

Judge: Navy not exempt from sonar ruling
By ANDREW DALTON, Associated Press Writer
53 minutes ago

LOS ANGELES - The Navy must follow environmental laws placing strict limits on sonar training that may harm whales, despite President Bush's decision to exempt it, a federal judge ruled Monday.

The Navy is not "exempted from compliance with the National Environmental Policy Act" and a court injunction creating a 12 nautical-mile no-sonar zone off Southern California, U.S. District Judge Florence-Marie Cooper wrote in a 36-page decision.

"We disagree with the judge's decision," White House spokesman Tony Fratto said. "We believe the orders are legal and appropriate."

The president signed a waiver Jan. 15 exempting the Navy and its anti-submarine warfare exercises from a preliminary injunction creating the no-sonar zone. The Navy's attorneys argued in court last week that he was within his legal rights.

Environmentalists have fought the use of sonar in court, saying it harms whales and other marine mammals.

"It's an excellent decision," said Joel Reynolds, attorney for the Natural Resources Defense Council, which is spearheading the legal fight. "It reinstates the proper balance between national security and environmental protection."

The Navy last week wrapped up a training exercise by the carrier strike group of the USS Abraham Lincoln in which sonar was used. There are currently no task force training exercises off the coast of California using sonar.

When he signed the exemption, Bush said complying with the law would "undermine the Navy's ability to conduct realistic training exercises that are necessary to ensure the combat effectiveness of carrier and expeditionary strike groups."

Said Reynolds: "I've always felt that the president's actions were illegal in this case, and the judge has affirmed that point of view with the decision today."

The judge also wrote that she has "significant concerns about the constitutionality of the President's exemption," but that a ruling based on constitutionality was not needed to reinstate the injunction.

A three-judge panel of the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco had been expected to rule on the future of the Navy exercises last month. After Bush's decision, the appeals court sent the issue to the U.S. District Court in Los Angeles for reconsideration.

Navy spokeswoman Lt. Cmdr. Cindy Moore did not say what the military's next legal move may be.

Government attorneys can appeal Cooper's decision to the 9th Circuit or could ask the appeals court to allow sonar exercises until the appeal is resolved.

Scientists have said that loud sonar can damage the brains and ears of marine mammals, and that it may mask the echoes some whales and dolphins listen for when they use their own natural sonar to locate food.

The Navy maintains that it already minimizes risks to marine life and has employed sonar for decades without seeing any whale injuries. The sonar is essential for tracking submarines, it said.

Navy not exempt from sonar ruling

On that last paragraph, the navy lies... They've taken heat for whale beachings here for the last several years. I can't remember which year, I'll have to look up the article in my forum, but a whole pod of whales beached on the Outer Banks, right after some sonar-testing to which the navy reluctantly admitted. There were events right in the same time period off the Florida coast as well ... The navy didn't deny their sonar-testing -- what they wouldn't concede was that it was harmful to the whales. And then, they said as much as this: "Too bad if it did hurt them: we're not going to stop."

So this latest ruling is pretty amazing. I wonder if Bush's "exemption" will really be over-ridden. We shall see!