Topic: WE'RE STUFFED!!!

[Angela]

Wait 'til next month when China and Russia cut us off.  Can you say "civil uprising" ... and it won't be for "change", it'll be because ppl are just PISSED OFF!  People are already tearing up their houses that are being foreclosed, then leaving them un-sellable.  I've seen quite a few ... you can feel the anger still left in the house ... it's eerie.  Now the automobile dealerships are re-financing cars ...heh!  It's an upside-down world we live in .. debt upon debt upon debt ... it can't go on indefinitely.

Ike was nothing.  I think what y'all are feeling is much bigger ... I've been feeling it too.  It's so strong, it's making me feel physically ill.  Ike was a symbol of the massive spread of deception and how far this "issue" actually reaches.  It's huge, it's global and the consequences devastating  ... that's what I Saw.  On one hand I hope I'm wrong, and on the other, it may be time ....

[Josh]

America desperately needs another revolution, however for one to actually be successful it cannot be a violent one because the government already has that aspect totally covered.  It would take a legion of extremely proficient and masterful computer hackers to entirely undermine the infrastructure of the current system.  But the window for this opportunity is closing quite quickly.

Also, the current state of the American populace is not the same as it was during the original revolution.  People of this era are soft, complacent, and lulled by the drone of modern civilization.  They have bought into the ideas sold to them quite readily, and are very happy with trading freedom and liberty for comfort and "security".  They would rather watch some "reality show" than participate in actual reality.

If McCain and his scarlet woman are elected, it would not be a good omen.  That man is already at deaths door, he wouldn't have much of a personal problem with jump-starting the apocalypse - plus the dude was tortured as a POW.  Republicans are notoriously supportive of the Holy Turf War in the middle east, profiting in manifold ways from the childish territorial disputes of tribal peoples each claiming "the Holy Land" as divine right by their "One, True God".  Modern Christianity in general has an odd global death wish in which they want that Rapture to occur, planet be damned.. literally.  They will look for any reason to believe that the book of revelation is some kind of prophecy for global events, rather than the symbolic esoteric vision it describes.  Its quite ridiculous how twisted they truly are.

Unfortunately, it doesn't matter when the prophecy itself becomes self-fulfilling.  That trajectory has been intensified for many hundreds of years now.  Its indelibly etched in the mind of the Christianized western world.  It infects the very fibers of their being. 

“Every generation needs a new revolution.”

 - Thomas Jefferson  (American 3rd US President (1801-09). Author of the Declaration of Independence. 1762-1826)

[Michael]

I haven't seen the film xero spoke of, so I know nothing about it.

However I have heard of the theory that the whole thing was a US plot of some kind, and certainly that is the current street-belief in most Arabian countries.

Personally, despite a good deal of proffered 'evidence', I would find it very hard to swallow. Not that I wouldn't put it past vested interests in the US to go in for such stuff - after all they bumped a President off without much concern.

All the same, somehow I doubt it. Now, as for 'allowing' it to happen, well that's a different matter, but even still...

[edited to add... mind you, I wouldn't be surprised to find it was an inside job... nothing would surprise me about these people who seek to mould history their way - it has been going on for a long time.]

On to the election, it has occurred to me that the Michael Palin's sister event on the republican side, may be a gift to the Democrats. Since she entered the fray on the comedian's side, I feel a lot safer for Obama living to the poll.

[Angela]

Here ... do what the republicans do ... make your own electoral map ....

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/maps/obama_vs_mccain/?map=1

[Michael]

We are watching some extraordinary events in the financial sector currently. There hasn't been something like this since the 1930's. It is quite spooky.

If that Insurance firm goes under, then who know what will follow. I think the US Govt has run out of money.

I haven't heard anyone yet speaking of a fundamental flaw in the Capitalist narrative. The most I heard was reflection that Bill's deregulation of the financial markets may have been a mistake... but I feel there is more at stake in this than simply regulation. Especially coming at this time.

This market rupture is occurring as a flagship of some deep changes that are coming to the way we arrange our collective agreement.

You know I sense that across the world, heads are talking - this is a global emergency crisis. The big boys will be burning the midnight oil for the next few days, to find some way out of this. And be sure they will try the only thing they can - throw money at it. Another war might help the Republican cause, as this economic nightmare is their worst nightmare, but it won't help resolve the crisis.

But will money do the trick? I heard the Japs have tossed a few billions into their market, but to date, the markets have just soaked up every billion the reserves can toss.

Don't underestimate their ability to squeeze out of this one, but every squeeze of the last decade has only compounded the next crisis. Which is why Greenspan is on the nose these days, for buying his way out of the dot com debacle: setting the foundation for the current debacle.

[erik]

It is funny how various analysts strive to justify current events: "Capitalism without a bankruptcy is like a religion without hell." 

[Jahn]

But will money do the trick? I heard the Japs have tossed a few billions into their market, but to date, the markets have just soaked up every billion the reserves can toss.e.

In the backwater of a scientific paper I have analysed the Japanese economy in the regression during the early 1990's which they shared with Sweden and Finland. Their (greater) problem was that they did not deal with the "bad or grey money" problems, they simply wasn't inclined to acknowledge the bad deals and that was afoot back then. Sweden and Finland addressed the whole "cancer" properly while Japan was half -hearted in that sense. Leading to a much slower recovery of the Japanese finances.

Now it looks bad in the US, real bad actually, but I have not the full figures to comment on Lehman Brothers and the muscles of Fed to handle it all. Interest rates will go down over here while risk rates will go up, so this two rates will equal the level in short terms.

   jamir

[erik]

Not that secret order, it seems...

Bush secret order to send special forces into Pakistan

Simon Tisdall
The Guardian,
Friday September 12 2008

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/sep/12/usforeignpolicy.usa

· Fear of escalating regional conflict
· White House seeks British backing

A secret order issued by George Bush giving US special forces carte blanche to mount counter-terrorist operations inside Pakistani territory raised fears last night that escalating conflict was spreading from Afghanistan to Pakistan and could ignite a region-wide war.

The unprecedented executive order, signed by Bush in July after an intense internal administration debate, comes amid western concern that the war against the Taliban in Afghanistan and its al-Qaida backers based in "safe havens" in western Pakistan's tribal belt is being lost.

Following Bush's decision, US navy Seals commandos, backed by attack helicopters, launched a ground raid into Pakistan last week which the US claimed killed about two dozen insurgents. Pakistani officials condemned the raid as illegal and said most of the dead were civilians. US and Nato commanders are anxious to halt infiltration across the Afghanistan-Pakistan border of insurgents and weapons blamed for casualties among coalition troops. The killing of a US soldier in eastern Afghanistan yesterday brought American losses in 2008 to 112, the deadliest year since the 2001 intervention. The move is regarded as unprecedented in terms of sending troops into a friendly, allied country.

But another American objective is the capture of Osama bin Laden, the al-Qaida leader held responsible for organising the 9/11 attacks. He and his second-in-command, Ayman al-Zawahiri, are thought to be hiding in the tribal areas of north and south Waziristan.

Bush's decision to extend the war into Pakistan, and his apparent hope of British backing, formed the background to a video conference call with Gordon Brown yesterday. "What's happening on the border of Pakistan and Afghanistan is something where we need to develop a new strategy," Brown said before talking to Bush.

Brown said he would discuss the border issue with Pakistan's new president, Asif Ali Zardari, who visits Britain next week.

Bush's unusual move in personally calling the prime minister for an Afghan strategy discussion has led to speculation that the US president was trying to line up British support for the new policy, including the possible involvement of British special forces in future cross-border incursions.

Bush's executive order is certain to cause strains with some Nato allies fearful that a spreading conflict could bring down Pakistan's weak civilian government and spark a wider war. Last night there were indications of open disagreement.

James Appathurai, a Nato spokesman, said the alliance did not support cross-border attacks or deeper incursions in to Pakistani territory.

"The Nato policy, that is our mandate, ends at the border. There are no ground or air incursions by Nato forces into Pakistani territory," he said.

Nato has 53,000 troops in Afghanistan, some of which are American. But the US maintains a separate combat force dedicated to battling al-Qaida and counter-terrorism in general. Nato defence ministers are due to discuss Afghanistan in London next week.

Last week's raid, and a subsequent attack on Monday by a Predator drone firing Hellfire missiles, provoked protests across the board in Pakistan, with only Zardari among leading politicians refusing to publicly condemn it.

Pakistan's armed forces chief, General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani, said the army would defend the country's sovereignty "at all costs". He went on: "No external force is allowed to conduct operations inside Pakistan."

He denied there was any agreement or understanding to the contrary. His comments were widely interpreted as a warning to Zardari not to submit to the American importunity. But his tough words also raised the prospect of clashes between US and Pakistani forces if American military incursions continue or escalate.

Until now, Washington has regarded Pakistan as a staunch ally in the "war on terror" that was launched in 2001. But the alliance has been weakened by last month's forced resignation of the army strongman, former general Pervez Musharraf, and his replacement by Zardari, Benazir Bhutto's widower.

Polls suggest most Pakistanis favour ending all counter-terrorism cooperation with Washington, which is blamed for a rising civilian casualty toll in Afghanistan and in the tribal areas.

Yousaf Raza Gilani, Pakistan's prime minister, joined the chorus of condemnation yesterday. He reportedly told state media Kayani's warning that unilateral US actions were undermining the fight against Islamist extremism represented the government's position.

Admiral Mike Mullen, chairman of the joint chiefs, and Robert Gates, defence secretary, told Congress this week that victory in Afghanistan was by no means certain and the US needed to take the fight to the enemy inside Pakistan.

Mullen called for a "more comprehensive strategy" embracing both sides of the border. "Until we work more closely with the Pakistani government to eliminate the safe havens from which they operate, the enemy will only keep coming," he said.

US and Pakistani forces have clashed by accident in the past during operations to root out militants, although sections of the Pakistani military and intelligence services are said to harbour deep resentment about perceived American interference.

[erik]

Pakistan is a nuclear state...

Pakistan orders troops to fire on US cross-border raids

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/sep/16/pakistan.afghanistan

Mark Tran and agencies
guardian.co.uk,
Tuesday September 16 2008

Army official says field commanders have been told to take action against further raids launched from Afghanistan

Pakistan's military said today its forces had received orders to fire on US troops if they entered Pakistani territory, after a cross-border raid inflamed public opinion.

The country's civilian leaders, who have taken a tough line against militants, have insisted Pakistan must resolve the dispute with the US through diplomatic channels. But the military has taken a more robust line.

General Athar Abbas, an army spokesman, told the Associated Press that after a cross-border assault in the south Waziristan region earlier this month, the military told its field commanders to take action to prevent any similar raids.

"The orders are clear," Abbas said in an interview. "In case it happens again in this form, that there is a very significant detection, which is very definite, no ambiguity, across the border, on ground or in the air: open fire."

The remarks mark a sharp deterioration in military relations between the US and Pakistan, which have been close allies in the "war on terror" since the September 11 attacks seven years ago.

The Bush administration has shown increasing impatience over what it considers Pakistan's incapacity or unwillingness to crack down on Taliban and al-Qaida fighters operating on the Afghanistan-Pakistan border.

Pakistan insists it is doing what it can. It has about 100,000 troops in the restive north-west and suicide bombers are inflicting an increasingly deadly toll on the Pakistani army.

American officials have confirmed that their forces carried out a raid near the town of Angoor Ada but have given few details. Abbas said Pakistan's military had asked for an explanation but received only a "half-page" of "very vague" information that did not identify the intended target. Pakistani officials have said the raid killed about 15 people, and Abbas said they all appeared to be civilians.

He would not say whether General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani, who replaced Pervez Musharraf as head of the army last year, personally made the decision on orders to fire on US troops or if it had been discussed with US officials.

The army spokesman played down reports that Pakistani forces yesterday shot at US helicopters after they penetrated national air space. Abbas insisted no foreign troops had crossed the border and that "trigger-happy tribesmen" had fired the shots.

Pakistani troops based nearby fired flares to see what was going on, he said. The US military in Afghanistan said none of its troops were involved in such an incident yesterday.

As the US steps up its military activity in the sensitive tribal area, Pakistani officials have warned that an increase in cross-border raids will achieve little and fuel the insurgency in Pakistan. Some complain that the country is being made a scapegoat for the failure to stabilise Afghanistan.

In a rare public statement last week, Kayani said Pakistan's sovereignty would be defended "at all cost". Abbas said Pakistani officials had to consider public opinion, which was increasingly anti-American and had some sympathy for rebels claiming to fight in the name of Islam.

"Please look at the public reaction to this kind of adventure or incursion," Abbas said. "The army is also an extension of the public and you can only satisfy the public when you match your words with your actions."

Last week, Admiral Mike Mullen, chairman of the US joint chiefs of staff, said a new strategy for Afghanistan was needed that incorporated the tribal territory. George Bush is believed to have signed a secret order allowing US forces to operate in the tribal area, even though the UN mandate for international forces in Afghanistan does not extend into Pakistan.

[Angela]

And now we're playing the game of Monopoly ... care to buy Park Place   Now the Government is picking up "foreclosures".

Ok, I'm no financial genius, but  ... 85B - for AIG, plus 200B for Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae ... hmmm let's see that's 285B divided by ... how many working Americans? .... Oh, and don't forget we already have trillions of existing debt.  $trillions,000,000,000,000.00!!!!!!

Hey Dubya ... please send me my shareholders account statement.


Government steps in again, bails out AIG with $85B
WASHINGTON - Another day, but not just another bailout. This one's a stunning government takeover.

In the most far-reaching intervention into the private sector ever for the Federal Reserve, .....
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080917/ap_on_bi_ge/aig

[Michael]

well it is falling apart as we talk.

I expect now we will see a line of heavy dominoes falling. Each one bringing the rest closer to the edge.

I have to tell you, it does not look good.

Now we here can all say, what's that to me? It means you can't find a job, and your savings, if you have any, are in great risk. It also means the likelihood of social disruption - meaning, watch out!

I did hear, the Govts of the world still have a lot more money left to throw at this, so perhaps we will live to worry again.

For the first time this morning, I heard someone saying the whole basis of modern financial architecture is now in question, straight after someone else saying, the free market will fix it.

[tangerine dream]

It is interesting to me, all these game analogies.

[erik]

For the first time this morning, I heard someone saying the whole basis of modern financial architecture is now in question, straight after someone else saying, the free market will fix it.

Some say it is to do with globalisation. Growing interconnectedness means that when the ancient Rome came down, the rest of the world kept functioning due to not being tightly connected to Rome economically (there were 70 million people living in Roman empire).

Nowadays we live in a global village and global economy - it is expected to came down so that nothing stays out of the collapse.

[erik]

Whoa! Chinese used to curse each other by saying: "May you live in interesting times!"

For those who take interest in interesting times - selection of articles on Afghanistan-Pakistan:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/sep/14/alqaida.military
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/sep/15/pakistan.afghanistan1
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/sep/15/pakistan.usforeignpolicy
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/us-seeking-sole-command-of-natos-war-against-the-taliban-934256.html
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/us-drone-strikes-in-pakistan-hours-after-sovereignty-pledge-934247.html

Yeah, cool! There are 150 million people in Pak and a few nukes as well. I guess, we should invade that place!

[Jahn]

well it is falling apart as we talk.

I expect now we will see a line of heavy dominoes falling. Each one bringing the rest closer to the edge.

I have to tell you, it does not look good.

Now we here can all say, what's that to me? It means you can't find a job, and your savings, if you have any, are in great risk. It also means the likelihood of social disruption - meaning, watch out!

I did hear, the Govts of the world still have a lot more money left to throw at this, so perhaps we will live to worry again.

For the first time this morning, I heard someone saying the whole basis of modern financial architecture is now in question, straight after someone else saying, the free market will fix it.

Domino - yes, as much values just fly away all monetary connections are risks. So - no surprise that some Swedish banks had great loans to, and claims on, Lehmans.

Saw now that The European Central Bank, together with England, Canada and more will add 120 billion USD to keep up financial values and Japan add another 60 billions!

Swedish central bank has taken time out this day to check the situation, it has been a rush on Swedish treasury bills.