Topic: WE'RE STUFFED!!!

[Jahn]

The problem is that your (neo)nazi social democrats,

Don't you confuse them with the Swedish Democrats. Because they are anti-muslim and accused of being fascist.
Social democrats are Olof Palme, the Palestine case, Cuba as friend and so on - is it that that disturbe you. The Commie connection that the Social democrates have had.

I know that you hate the Soviets and admire the Americans. Is that were the shoe gets too tight and the Social democrats become Nazist?

[Nichi]

Well I dont know what a poodlefaker is honey, lol 

Neither did I - I don't think there's a comparable word in US idiom...

[Builder]

Of course, it was a crime, at least it was utterly paternalistic without any support from the population. And that is the question here, why do you pursue this event? It was not any political consensus about that maltreatment, it has nothing to do at all with the elections in Sweden! It has only to do with your discontent with Sweden and I hope the other members can identify this "charge".

Without support of population??? Until 1976??? Are you... If population/social dems were against it... You must be kidding me...? Where is your clear thinking, old man? There were always neighbours who complained...quietly...secretly...

Now the Social Democrats consist of people that are very reasonable and friendly. If they should hear from a person that they were alike neo-nazis they would put up an UFO/maniak warning.

There is no such connection. Perhaps I should have a seminar at your institution to clear out a few misunderstandings? heh, the Social Democrats (our whole labor force in the 1950's) equal neo-nazists, where does such ideas come from?

That friendliness is their way of control. Nice way to domesticate people, condition them socially. You must be friendly to anybody immigrating into Sweden, you must conform to their rules. You cannot deviate, you must live in that aquarium of theirs regardless of what you think.

As to the structure of your labour market, then any knowing political scientist would say there is quite a bit in common with how Nazi Germany operated, how governments made deals with big business that state would grow high quality labour force in return for reasonably high taxes. That has been traditional set-up in Sweden. NATIONAL socialism...and in 1950s sterilisation was at its peak...

[Builder]

Don't you confuse them with the Swedish Democrats. Because they are anti-muslim and accused of being fascist.
Social democrats are Olof Palme, the Palestine case, Cuba as friend and so on - is it that that disturbe you. The Commie connection that the Social democrates have had.

I know that you hate the Soviets and admire the Americans. Is that were the shoe gets too tight and the Social democrats become Nazist?

You still cannot argue.

[Firestarter]

Somebody pretending to be a poodle, while being a jackal.

LOL Thanks Juhani

[Builder]

The message is not particularly new nor original, but the source is interesting. Kogi wisemen Mamos spend their entire childhood in the dark.
Their way of looking at things as at natural materials reorganised is really a thing I like.
Not many people in developed countries are able to see their new cars this way.

Save the planet – a message from another world

The first member of a remote Colombian tribe ever to set foot in Britain brings a stark ecological warning

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/sep/27/kogi-warn-the-west


Jacinto Zabareta in north London and members of the Kogi people in Colombia. Photograph: Guardian

Jacinto Zarabata sits in a suburban back garden in north London and unselfconsciously uses a stick to probe the inside of a gourd, which is shaped like a rather phallic mushroom with a bright yellow cap. The first member of the Kogi people of Colombia  ever to visit Britain is wearing traditional rough cotton clothes and has a cloth bag slung over each shoulder as he chews toasted coca leaves.

It would be easy to view Jacinto as a noble savage; an exotic being from a pristine indigenous culture still living in impenetrable pockets of the Sierra Nevada de Santa Marta, the highest coastal mountain range in the world. But this small, self-assured spokesman for the Kogi soon subverts that stereotype. As he answers my first question in fluent Spanish, he delves into one bag, extracts a camera and takes a photograph of me.

Jacinto has made the journey to Britain because the Kogi have embarked on an unusual and ambitious mission. They are making a movie about their way of life – but not for themselves, as part of some kind of do-gooding community workshop; it is for us, and it carries an uncompromising message. One of very few indigenous American people to resist the ravages of Spanish conquistadors, Christian missionaries and, now, eco-tourists, militias, drug lords and heavy industry, the Kogi have observed frightening changes to their homeland in recent decades. The glaciers are melting, storms have increased in ferocity, there are landslides and floods, followed by droughts and deforestation. The Kogi, who live by a complex set of spiritual beliefs, are the "elder brother" and guardians of this, the heart of the earth, and they believe we in the west ("little brother") are destroying the planet. They have come to warn us, before it is too late.

Jacinto, who is a spokesperson for the Mamos, the Kogi spiritual leaders who have a unique wisdom forged by an entire childhood spent living in the dark, arrived in London the previous night. He is staying with Alan Ereira, who made a BBC documentary, The Heart of the World, about their life 20 years ago. What are Jacinto's first impressions of our society?

"The first thing that is noticeable to me is that this is still the world," he says. "What's visible is construction, what you have made. This is not something we, the Kogi, are used to seeing. You give precedence to the use of a thing rather than its source. That's the intellectual error. Ultimately, it's all nature." From Jacinto's viewpoint, when we glance at a car we might assess its cost and the status conferred on its driver. We don't recognise it as a clever piece of engineering of resources that once lay inside the earth.

The Kogi are witnessing some of this extraction first hand. Coal mining in the Sierra Nevada has boomed in recent decades (fuelled in part by the demand for cheap foreign coal in post-miners' strike Britain). Over centuries, they survived the wars waged on them by retreating further into the mountains, through dense rainforest and cloud forest dubbed "El Infierno" by settlers. There are still no roads to the Kogi's traditional settlements (Jacinto's home does not exist on official maps), but global capitalism is slowly conquering the Kogi's isolation.

Not that Jacinto does not embrace victimhood. He highlights the positive developments for their culture. When Ereira's film was broadcast around the world in 1990, there were 12,000 Kogi. Now there are 18,000. After centuries witnessing their lands being plundered, they have been returned significant traditional areas and sacred sites by the Colombian government. Last month Juan Manuel Santos, the country's new president, visited the Kogi to be blessed by the Mamos before his official inauguration. "In a sense, the Kogi are trying to take over the Colombian government and build a sense of responsibility into the president himself," says Ereira. "The Kogi are saying, 'How are we going to sort the world out?' They must be the most proactive indigenous people on earth."

In Ereira's documentary, the Kogi's message was ahead of its time: they warned of climate change, and that "little brother's" (the west's) hunger for energy and material possessions was "cutting out of the eyes and ears" of the great mother (the earth). But we didn't listen. And so, 18 months ago, Ereira received a phone call out of the blue from the Kogi (Spanish-speakers such as Jacinto use mobile phones when they visit westernised cities; there is little reception in the mountains), demanding his immediate presence. Ereira thenreturned to the Sierra Nevada de Santa Marta, trekking on a mule through the rainforest. He was taken to sacred sites he had never been allowed to visit before and the Kogi, some of whom had received training with video cameras and broadcast a series of seven-minute documentaries on Colombian television, explained their new film-making mission.

When Ereira returned, he found the Kogi's heartland remarkably unchanged. "You don't see the transformation you see in Amazonian traditional societies, where you have an impoverished western urban culture in indigenous villages. You don't see the T-shirts and baseball caps. The Kogi's identification with their culture is phenomenally strong. The belief of the Mamos in their responsibility for taking care of the world is absolute, and it's the duty and function of the rest of their society to ensure they do that. That's not broken down."

But it has been changed by the growing relationship between the indigenous community and the government. Increasingly, a few salaried Kogi who speak Spanish and work as local officials have the power to get things done. Ereira wonders if this will undermine the traditional authority of the Mamos – and if the Kogi's unique way of thinking is at risk. "It's a perception of reality which is contained in their language and is utterly different from ours. My fear is that the moment you mess with it in any way, it's lost. You probably can't hold that experience if you speak Spanish because the conceptual world is totally different. You're at risk of losing this last trace, this philosophical reserve."

Jacinto, however, does not fear for the future of Kogi culture. "There has always been an attempt to bring other ideas and thoughts into our way of life," he says. Doesn't he worry that the Kogi will be drawn to the bright lights of westernised cities, such as nearby Santa Marta? "No," he says. "The Mamos have authority over people. People can experience other cultures but they have an obligation to return. If they don't, the authorities are obliged to go down [the mountain] and get them." Doesn't Jacinto crave cars, houses and restaurants? "At this particular moment there isn't that need," he says, gravely. "But I can envisage a time when we may adopt certain things."

One thing they have adopted is filmmaking – the Kogi believe a movie is their best hope not only of telling little brother where he is going wrong, but showing him. This time, however, the Kogi's film is not being masterminded by Ereira: "They decided after the first film that this was the best way to connect with the world," he explains. "But they realised that to be in our hands was just not a good idea." So Ereira is assisting, and seeking funding for the project, which will be completed next summer. Judging by the Kogi's trailer, the authentic voice of an indigenous people makes for compelling viewing but the BBC have not expressed an interest, so instead, Ereira and the Kogi are planning a movie release. Footage of the Kogi conducting rituals beneath a spectacular tree is straight out of Avatar. "Avatar has done great work for this," Ereira says. "Twenty years ago, the Kogi were pushing on a wheel that had just started to turn. Now that wheel is really rolling and they are part of the zeitgeist."

The Kogi may not feel under attack culturally, but in their mountain environment "a lot has changed" in the last two decades, according to Jacinto. "The Sierra is the heart of the world. It functions the same way as our own heart does – it sustains the organism," he says. "There has been snow melt, landslides and earthquakes. People are damaging the sacred places from where the damage can be restored."

Why is little brother so greedy? Jacinto chuckles and rubs his gourd, a sign he is thinking. (The mushroom shaped cap on the gourd, which men carry to symbolise their connection with the womb, is a sign of his accumulated thought.) "Habit," he says, finally. "That ambition to have more doesn't have a framework. It's just a drive to accumulate. The habit is a competitive one. 'What everyone else has I must have too, otherwise everyone else has power over me.' The consequences are evident, but it doesn't seem obvious to you," Jacinto says. "You can go and live in space, that's fine, but you don't seem to be able to go back to the understanding of how to live harmoniously with the earth. That's something you've forgotten."

Yet the Kogi hope we can still reconnect, by seeing the value they place on thinking and their spiritual world. "When you understand that, you begin to understand yourself a bit more," Jacinto says. "Originally, the great mama brought us into being so we would be guardians of nature. You, the little brother, was given this knowledge of how to treat the earth and the water and the air. At some point there was divergence and you, the little brother, went on a different path.

"We, by example, don't live like you do. You come to the Sierra, there are no factories, there is no industrial agriculture. Now we really want you to look at the images of how we live."

[Nichi]

The message is not particularly new nor original, but the source is interesting.

It is interesting. Thanks, E.

[Builder]

Kogi movie trailer

[Builder]

As for your screwed up link, one of the few things that appear to be correct is:
"The Swedish Institute for Racial Biology was opened in Stockholm in the early 1920s. It emerged as part of a worldwide interest in eugenics--the notion that human stock could be improved by selective breeding, much like cattle."

As you did not like the above link, here you get better one - a whole PhD (based on data from Swedish National Archives) has been waived on the subject of eugenics/sterilisation. Here is its brief summary and review: http://edoc.hu-berlin.de/nordeuropaforum/1999-2/ekerwald-hedvig-43/XML/

What do we see:

1) It was a State policy - sterilisations were mostly initiated and carried out by the State
2) practically all people sterilised by the end of 1950s were coerced into sterilisations, whether anybody was sterilised voluntarily after that, is highly questionable
3) The victims of sterilisation were the lowest classes of Swedish society with women constituting 60-95% of all people sterilised depending on the time period between 1935 and 1975
4) Sterilisation was clearly gender and class-specific, less race specific (well, how many non-European Swedes were there in Sweden then? Yet there have been
hints regarding systematic sterilisation of Saami people)
5) The grounds for making decisions of sterilisation were cultural and not medical: A third major result is that the categorisations seemed scientific but in reality were not so. The medical language and the doctors were at the centre of the practice of the sterilisation laws of 1934 and 1941, not the jurists. Runcis has a clever analysis of the mechanisms of categorisation. She criticizes the above mentioned Broberg and Tydén for taking the concept ‘feeble-minded’ to correspond to our concept ‘intellectually disabled’ (p.27). It might seem that ‘feeble-minded’ means a psychiatrically well defined group but Runcis shows the great variation of qualities behind the defining of a person as ‘feeble-minded’. I understand ‘feeble-minded’ simply to mean “the people we find deviant”. Runcis expresses this:

In other words, ‘feeble-minded’ was a generic term for people who in one way or another disturbed the culture of conformity. The concept had no apparent scientific basis, as a person labelled feeble-minded could either be apathetic or highly active and socially skilled. But this did not stop the experts at central level from ultimately bestowing a kind of scientific legitimacy on the label. /.../ To deviate in those days was to display a lack of sense.

And what is stunning, it seems that none of that is mentioned in your Swedish history books.
No wonder that there is that continuous flow and attempt of whitewash - '...criminals and mentally disabled were sterilised, people were sterilised mostly on their free will', etc. Thus the response to the news that broke out:

To the world it was news, however. That autumn 1997, different Swedish authorities were bombarded by journalists from the whole world wanting to know more about the scandal. The participants in the Swedish debate  that started with Zaremba’s articles can all be read as modest in comparison to the excited media articles abroad. At the centre of the media interest stood not only the welfare state itself but also two of its main proponents, Alva and Gunnar Myrdal. These two anti-Nazists were presented in media as ideological cousins of the Nazi leaders, proposing to sterilise groups of Swedish citizens by force to guarantee the genetic quality of the Swedish people. One could perhaps say that there was a kind of “you are not better yourself” resentment [in Sweden] characterising the presentation of this sterilisation news. The world had stripped the model country Sweden of its proudest product, the good democratic welfare state. Its authoritarian reverse had been revealed.

Now, I asserted that Swedish social democrats were close to nazis in their policies.
I still do and what was carried out in Sweden for 40 years was nothing but forceful breeding of conformist labour cattle for Swedish industry. Nazi social order is not a death cult, it is also a socioeconomic system and a particular way of organising and controlling the development of society. In this respect, Sweden has a long way to go until it will able to look into mirror without cringing and closing eyes.

[Jahn]

Your interest in Swedish history is noteworthy.
In fact you know more than me in these matters.

The Nazi movement in its original, in Germany was a dead cult. I can provide evidence for that, like the SS emblem.





Nazism was also a lot about the Third Reich and the Aries as a superior race compared to other, ideas that  no Swedish party (In the Parliament) ever has aligned to.

Hitler was a 1/4 or 1/8 Jude so he didn't qualify to his own standards.

[Builder]

Scull and crossed bones have been symbol in warfighting long before nazis came to world stage. Various units, pirates, etc. have used them on their flags and uniforms. Even your toast means scull in Swedish.

[Jahn]

Scull and crossed bones have been symbol in warfighting long before nazis came to world stage. Various units, pirates, etc. have used them on their flags and uniforms. Even your toast means scull in Swedish.

How about to solve "the German problem" by killing 6 million people of different kind? Not only Jews, but homo-sexuals, suspected communists etc. Isn't that a DEAD CULT all over the place.

Each Nazi officer had a Cyancalium capsule in their jacket to swallow, to ensure that DEATH would follow within a minute. How close is that to a Death cult?
Just some observations from the North.

Remember what the Nazis said:
"Either we will be remembered as they who started the 1000 year Reich - or we will be remembered as the worst criminals ever seen in history." Source unknown.

[Jahn]

Death cult?

"Walk a mile in my shoes"



The death camps was not run by Nazi officers, the staff was the ordinary citizens like
Mr and Mrs Müller, Schmidt and Schneider (the three most common surnames in Germany).



This is the final result of a death cult

[Builder]

How do you define 'death cult'?

Mao killed much more people in absolute numbers.
Cambodians killed drastically higher share of their own population than anybody else.
There are much more horrifying images available from other countries...

SS officers had potassium cyanide with them only in exceptional cases.
SS consisted of several directorates: security police, intelligence, concentration camps, frontline units, etc. It was a type of security apparatus of a state. SS was very similar to Soviet NKVD that also had a directorate of concentration camps called GULAG (these two cooperated intensively and exchanged a number of practices in 1930s.) It sounds unbelievable, but the SS learned how to set up concentration camps from Soviets. Newly revealed documents from Soviet archives present simply breath taking facts!

Death camps themselves served a dual purpose in Soviet Union. Surely, it was a way of getting rid of unwanted 'them' - people opposed to Soviet rule, sexual minorities, certain ethnic groups, etc. - but these camps also served as a source of free labour. Soviets had no money to industrialise their country like the West did, so they turned huge numbers of their own people and people from occupied countries into slaves who worked until they dropped dead. Sounds no different from Nazi Germany, does it?

As you see, it is the racial hatred combined with economy and organisation of society that produces practices attributed mistakenly only to the Nazi Germany.

Was Soviet Union a death cult? Communist China? Communist Cambodia? They were not, they were extreme forms of a nation-state based on juxtapositioning of 'us' (belonging to one ethnic, political or other group or race) to 'others' (belonging to another ethnic, political or other group or race). Take such an opposition to the extreme, and you'll end up with breeding programs, concentration camps, etc.

It is the usual trick one's ethnic identity plays with the mind.

My claim above was that such a thing could happen even in the nation-states that consider themselves being democratic and tolerant. They may say that they have got over the 'us'-'them' separation, but they have not. In fact, their whole identity is based on that and there are no guarantees that when that identity is threatened, uninhibited violence will not be unleashed. Various anti-immigration political movements are an indication of threatened identity.

[Builder]

Jahn, look at these figures: http://www-sul.stanford.edu/depts/ssrg/misc/misery.html

As you see, killing the 'other' has been a common practice.

We like to curse and treat Germans and Japanese as exceptional cases because...'they' were defeated and all anger and shame could be unleashed on 'them'.

Soviet Union and other dictatorships have been victorious states...the victors are never judged.