Soma
Tools of the Path => Christ [Public] => Topic started by: Firestarter on July 05, 2014, 02:19:20 AM
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since we have been discussing jesus and the gospels, i have noticed some do seem to believe in jesus, but many of us walk the toltec path, or say employ don juan teachings and the like. so i was wondering, for those who do believe, how does jesus `fit` with the teachings of don juan? very interested in everyones take on this.
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Well I'll tell you my story. I was brought up as a Catholic, in nun's and brother's schools. I was even an alter boy.
I never could get any traction on the whole thing - the bible, the mass, the catechism, the horror stories of communism, the nuns in their black habits and the priests in their gaga gear, all the nightmarish statues of Jesus and the gooey ones of Mary.
As I grew older all that Christian stuff seemed remote from my life - a dark place somewhere over there and irrelevant.
Once I came across the Toltec material, and the words of Don Juan, I came to an astounding realisation that had never presented to me from the Christian push: if I were to follow some of DJ's exercises and attitudes, this would change me internally for life. That was a very exciting prospect for a young man like me.
Christianity had never addressed me this way. Toltec was a path of trying out some actual practices, and watching what happened to me as a consequence. Christianity was a belief system, not a change path. Sure you might be changed by your beliefs, but that was not a strategic and dedicated purpose in Christianity, as it was in Toltec.
After I had changed, and decided I found the changes profound, I returned to the bible and reread it, in fact most of it. I then found it quite fascinating, with many understandings that were not promoted by Christianity. So that was somewhat intriguing.
But the effect, was what finally caused me to drop the whole thing. By this time I was also investigating similarly many religions, so was able to contrast the mood underpinning each tradition. This allowed me to recognise Christianity as a dark and dank etheric place. It actually revolted me, and still does. This is largely due to its European influence, because all of Europe, especially central and western Europe, gives me a similar feeling. It was full of contorted, suffocating and depressing feelings, and sticks in my mind like a huge black cloud of smog, that people live under. I feel the same about the heavy buildings, the stuffy cultural vibes, the pathetic gardens, the pompous classical music, and Christianity epitomises the worst of all that.
Of course there are some things I love in European culture, and some things I admire in Christianity, but when I compare it to the open fun-loving free-air colourful and vibrant traditions of Asia and other areas of the world, I just can't believe any soul would choose to subject themselves to existing in such a dank smelly armpit of spiritual mood.
The very word scripture makes my toes curl up.
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.....I just can't believe any soul would choose to subject themselves to existing in such a dank smelly armpit of spiritual mood.
The very word scripture makes my toes curl up.
Amen.
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I think the hard part for me, is say the big posts of scriptures I posted. The old jewish laws where women could be executed, or like the one where a man rapes a woman, he has to marry her, and cannot divorce her. Why would the woman wish to be married to a man who raped her???? And then I could say understand the teachings of Jesus per se, but then the apostle paul came along, and said women had to be silent in church and the like. So for me, I want to like the teachings of Jesus, but when I read these scary scriptures I am at a loss. But the main thing for me is only christians can be saved. So like, what about all the people who subscribe to other religions?
I did have a christian friend of mine message me on facebook cause this is before the does god exist group became closed, and i popped up posting on a thread (thanks facebook). So I explained to her nicely, I appreciate her path, but my main grievance is all these good people, who would go into a hell. All the hindu, muslim, buddhist, et al, what about them? She did not respond and that ended the discussion. This is one of the things christians cannot answer for me, cause I think in turn, they have issues with this too. Christ saves, but others are not saved if they dont believe or worship differently. I did go to sunday school when young, but this is what really caused me to take a different road, looking for the answer to this dilemma. Sure christianity could say the answer is to minister to others, and convert them, but obviously, not all would believe, and this is also based on culture, and majority rules in many countries. Most people will subscribe to the religion of a country by the masses. So say people in asia with shinto and buddhism and taoism, what about them? So I do wish somehow the jesus question could be resolved. Do I think he existed? Yes, divine, I dont know. But even say a pacifist like jesus, I dont think hed even want a bunch of people going to hell just cause they didnt believe in him.
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So I do wish somehow the jesus question could be resolved.
How would it be resolved? By dropping the 'hell' idea? How could they then execute the idea, or erase the dark ages karma from their legacy?
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How would it be resolved? By dropping the 'hell' idea? How could they then execute the idea, or erase the dark ages karma from their legacy?
Yes that would be wonderful!
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Interesting topic. As very young I went to church with my father and I found it very nice in the church. I felt the strength that Jesus must have had (impact we say today), making all these peoples build churches and gather them once a week 2000 years after he was gone.
In my teens I became interested in all "deep stuff", reading Herman Hesse, Dostojevsky, Salinger and what I could find about other religions. I still have two books from the High School Library, the book about Tao and the book about the Upanishades.
I met a girl that was into some deeper stuff and I got a member of Arcanum. They sent a monthly piece of articles written on typewriter. It was a mix of water and wine. In Arcanum http://www.worldcat.org/title/brevcirkeln-arcanum-medlemsblad/oclc/185279448?referer=di&ht=edition (http://www.worldcat.org/title/brevcirkeln-arcanum-medlemsblad/oclc/185279448?referer=di&ht=edition) you could read about Madame Blavatsky, known Indian Gurus, Shamanism, Rosicrucians, Castaneda and just everything that we now call New Age, together with some info on seminars and actual events.
When I left home in 1975 I had read all books that Castaneda had written so far and was intrigued how right on spot Don Juan teachings was. A pity though, with all that focus on power plants in the books. That made my friend and me inclined to test it, together with other psychoactive drugs. I could have done better without that stuff.
As we all know by now, it is a great different from the teachings of Jesus and what Christianity preaches. With the new lens that Don Juan provided it was clear that something went wrong with the original teachings from Jesus.
Hell btw, has been redefined (by the Protestant church in Sweden) as a life without the presence of God.
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Ellen, I haven't addressed this question, though it is interesting, because I understand it to be addressed to believers or at least former believers.
so i was wondering, for those who do believe, how does jesus `fit` with the teachings of don juan?
I had the sparsest exposure to Lutheranism, but it never really took, and I reveled in giving my Confirmation teacher the hardest possible time at age 12, arguing and debating and such. The family was never consistent in church-going: my biological father only seemed to take an interest in it in the times he was attempting sobriety. The hypocrisy and feigned remorse consistent with his attendance was glaringly apparent even to me-the-young-child.
My mother, brother, and I eventually moved in with my grandparents, and I was fascinated with my grandfather's expressed agnosticism. The biological family and my grandfather's household actually did entertain discussions of epistemology. How-can-we-KNOW was frequently bandied about.
In my 20's, when I was in college taking sociology, philosophy, literature, and women's studies, I had an interest in the Judaeo-Christian-Islamic point of view, mostly as it formed the basis of western misogyny. Via that interest I did biblical text-reading. Likewise, if one does any serious Western literature-reading, it behooves one to be a little familiar with 2 things: Shakespeare and the Bible.
As a spiritualist in my 30's, I had to widen my tolerance a bit, because they assimilated something they called "Christ Consciousness". In that motif, Jesus was considered an ascended master, along with many others. I was far more interested/in sync with Kuan Yin there than with Jesus.
By the time I read Castaneda seriously, though, "Jesus" was long excised from my mind as any sort of feature of my path. And likely, I could say that he never was part of my world.
It was all S/spirit for me.
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Ok, here's my take.
Technically Jesus tought the same thing as toltec path, spiritual evolution.
Toltecs started their journey as humans, growing upwards bit by bit, changed by their teachers.
Jesus came from already above, he was more than a human already. Maybe he had a time of forgetfulness, but then he started to remember where he is from. He was from "elsewhere". Most of us on a spiritual path, we are born only as humans and this is where we start our journey of awareness.
So, as much as I understand Jesus came from somewhere where the toltecs intended to go. Jesus had already been there, but toltecs didn't know for sure where they are going and if they are successful in it.
The wasy Jesus spoke, may sound a bit odd, but it must have been suitable to that specific time. Words are different but the meaning is same.
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By the time I read Castaneda seriously, though, "Jesus" was long excised from my mind as any sort of feature of my path. And likely, I could say that he never was part of my world.
It was all S/spirit for me.
Right. And to me the thing is, if One gets on the toltec path, follows the teachings of don juan, I find it interesting they would see parallels to this. Heaven and Hell vs the Eagle eating awareness? Christianity does not teach in losing awareness. You are 'aware' whether in heaven or hell. Some say you 'sleep' til judgment day (this primarily seventh day aventists), but others say up or down, that is what happens.
And I do wonder a bit, when you see old paintings of hell which have been done, how did this torment and ugliness get imbedded into the psyche of the artist? Why such a state? This to me is a big part for me, The "Good and Loving God," sending a good chunk of his creation to such a place. I dont think there is much anyone can do 'wrong' to deserve that for an eternity. And this is based on belief per se. You believe wrong, you dont form an agreement to this religiosity, this is what occurs.
The toltec teaches you lose awareness, if not impeccable, if not transformed. This is very different end game. Therefore I dont see how Jesus fits in the teachings of don Juan.
Tho I differ with Michael on transformation. Any spiritual path can transform a person. I see there are those who christianity changed them into being better people per se. They do exist. But then there are those it made more bigoted, self-righteous. So really, it is up to the individual, their own transformation process, and what they do with it.
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(http://www.book530.com/paintingpic/0822e2/-Oil-painting-The-Hell-Fresco.jpg)
(https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRZ9T5mn8AeRb2MwlIj-f24i8v6jteYE_fcS3qRnpdk-Xr9tY4Q)
(http://www.oceansbridge.ca/paintings/artists/special/art/new/big/Coppo-Di-Marcovaldo-XX-The-Hell-XX-Baptistry-Florence.jpg)
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These were the Zeitgeist of the time. A European sickness.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6d/The_Garden_of_Earthly_Delights_by_Bosch_High_Resolution.jpg/1024px-The_Garden_of_Earthly_Delights_by_Bosch_High_Resolution.jpg)
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So, as much as I understand Jesus came from somewhere where the toltecs intended to go. Jesus had already been there, but toltecs didn't know for sure where they are going and if they are successful in it.
The story of Jesus, Krishna, Buddha, Don Juan and the Toltecs, are just that - stories. There is no validation available that either of these stories are fact. The question for us, is whether the story is useful. There is no validation that Jesus and Kishna came from 'above' as avataras, or that Buddha or Don Juan achieved or knew what they were doing. It is all about how useful their stories are for us in making our own journey.
You can't say the Toltecs didn't know where they were going, but you can say they became aware, as per their story, that there is no single place of arrival. This is one of the errors of popular thinking on religions - that ultimately they are all the same. You can say 'spiritual evolution', but that doesn't in itself mean anything specific.
My own journey has shown me that all religions lead to different places. We tend to think that humanity is this diverse array which when subjected to spiritual evolution, hone in on a single point on the horizon, a final point of 'arrival'. My realisations have shown me that it is precisely the opposite, that basically humanity is all the same - you realise this the further you progress on the path - and that spiritual development releases them into an infinite array of possibilities.
This means you need to be careful what path you take, because they don't merge in the end, they diverge. That doesn't mean you can't take parts of many paths, because in the end we are all following our own path.
What you do need to do though, is find the tools and steps. They have to resonate with your spirit, but if you choose a path that makes you feel good, but doesn't produce the goods, then you are up shit creek without a paddle. Far better to be hungry for knowledge than defend a position.
Basically we are alone, with only stories to advise us. Some stories hold more treasures than others.
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The story of Jesus, Krishna, Buddha, Don Juan and the Toltecs, are just that - stories. There is no validation available that either of these stories are fact. The question for us, is whether the story is useful. There is no validation that Jesus and Kishna came from 'above' as avataras, or that Buddha or Don Juan achieved or knew what they were doing. It is all about how useful their stories are for us in making our own journey.
You can't say the Toltecs didn't know where they were going, but you can say they became aware, as per their story, that there is no single place of arrival. This is one of the errors of popular thinking on religions - that ultimately they are all the same. You can say 'spiritual evolution', but that doesn't in itself mean anything specific.
My own journey has shown me that all religions lead to different places. We tend to think that humanity is this diverse array which when subjected to spiritual evolution, hone in on a single point on the horizon, a final point of 'arrival'. My realisations have shown me that it is precisely the opposite, that basically humanity is all the same - you realise this the further you progress on the path - and that spiritual development releases them into an infinite array of possibilities.
This means you need to be careful what path you take, because they don't merge in the end, they diverge. That doesn't mean you can't take parts of many paths, because in the end we are all following our own path.
What you do need to do though, is find the tools and steps. They have to resonate with your spirit, but if you choose a path that makes you feel good, but doesn't produce the goods, then you are up shit creek without a paddle. Far better to be hungry for knowledge than defend a position.
Basically we are alone, with only stories to advise us. Some stories hold more treasures than others.
This is very sound advice michael and I am with you, all these religions do not lead to the same thing. But if one twists it, changes it to suit them, it still will not change the fact, they are all different, and lead to different results. I do not show jesus and the toltec comparable. I find that the toltec, going to the eagles beak, equals a loss of awareness unless we can slip thru. The christians do not say we lose awareness ever. Buddhists dont believe in a soul whereas christians do.
Now I wonder, for those who believe in jesus, and follow the teachings of don juan, I mean no offense to you who I speak. But perhaps, are you trying to be on the 'safe side' by including jesus in the toltec? Like Pascals wager, believing in Jesus, but the following the teachings of don juan, whose end result is very different and unique, not only to christianity, but other religions as well. Playing safe?
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Of course, religion has nothing to do with my personal parth. Religion can take to places you don't want to be.
For an example even buddism, generally they intend emptiness, they don't see that there is something worth intending behind emptiness. So, what you intend, that is what you get if your intent is strong...
Btw -- Bible was before religion of christianity. Somehow some keep talking about christianity as if it was already there with Jesus and the Bible.
My own journey has shown me that all religions lead to different places. We tend to think that humanity is this diverse array which when subjected to spiritual evolution, hone in on a single point on the horizon, a final point of 'arrival'. My realisations have shown me that it is precisely the opposite, that basically humanity is all the same - you realise this the further you progress on the path - and that spiritual development releases them into an infinite array of possibilities.
This means you need to be careful what path you take, because they don't merge in the end, they diverge. That doesn't mean you can't take parts of many paths, because in the end we are all following our own path.
What you do need to do though, is find the tools and steps. They have to resonate with your spirit, but if you choose a path that makes you feel good, but doesn't produce the goods, then you are up shit creek without a paddle. Far better to be hungry for knowledge than defend a position.
Basically we are alone, with only stories to advise us. Some stories hold more treasures than others.
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Btw -- Bible was before religion of christianity. Somehow some keep talking about christianity as if it was already there with Jesus and the Bible.
The 'Bible' was not before Christianity. It was created by the later-early Christians. The Old Testament predates Christ, and belongs to Judaism. But it was 'selected' from a vast array of Judaic texts by those who established the 'Bible', with a particular purpose in mind, so it is to be considered Christian in it's selection. The New Testament was written within 50 to 150 (you can check Wikipedia for the dates) years after Christ, but it is fully Christian, not Judaic.
Jesus was a Jew, and the antecedents informing Christianity via the Bible are all Judaic. Jesus was not a Christian. You will find when you step back to Jesus, you also have to step back to Judaism. That is largely the problem. You should know that Judaism has very little interest in spirituality - it is a tribe of people obsessed with pragmatic survival and their love of arguing with god. Jewish mysticism is not well appreciated within Judaism - we may know about the famous mystical texts, but Jews very very rarely care about them. Judaism has precious little interest in the after-life, it's all about here and now in the world.
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Absolutely, agree ;)
What you do need to do though, is find the tools and steps. They have to resonate with your spirit, but if you choose a path that makes you feel good, but doesn't produce the goods, then you are up shit creek without a paddle. Far better to be hungry for knowledge than defend a position.
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Jesus came from already above, he was more than a human already.
/.../
So, as much as I understand Jesus came from somewhere where the toltecs intended to go. Jesus had already been there, but toltecs didn't know for sure where they are going and if they are successful in it.
You are far out there in your belief system, dear girl of the Baltic region.
It was Toltecs (in the form of the Essenes) that teached Jesus, but we (The Toltecs) could never get him the blessing in his mission. All was touched of course, when he did the jump, but noone was surprised.
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The story of Jesus, Krishna, Buddha, Don Juan and the Toltecs, are just that - stories. There is no validation available that either of these stories are fact. The question for us, is whether the story is useful.
Here we got a point from Michael that no one can dismiss, is the story useful? (For Your Spiritual growth).
What you do need to do though, is find the tools and steps. They have to resonate with your spirit, but if you choose a path that makes you feel good, but doesn't produce the goods, then you are up shit creek without a paddle. Far better to be hungry for knowledge than defend a position.
Basically we are alone, with only stories to advise us. Some stories hold more treasures than others.
Good. That was what Jesus and the Toltec talks about, Good - not God.
Everyone has to find their own path, and also find to the tools that propel them forward. We, or I , cannot tell what works for you or any member. We and I, can only share our experiences.
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jahn where do you get the essenes were toltec? i took them for jewish purists.
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Yes, we can share experiences and ideas, but we can't tell anyone what exactly they should do or what they "need to understand".
The story of Jesus (which for me was confirmed by a living being btw, who is also from somewhere else and remembers the existence elsewhere (I know, here you want to laugh at me once again and ridicule the whole thing, but that is not my loss :P because I have absolutely no reason to doubt in it) I find useful for me, it is something to ponder about. About the possible existence of much more evolved beings and how unimaginable this existence could be, compared to this small life of a human. Yes I find it useful.
Everyone has to find their own path, and also find to the tools that propel them forward. We, or I , cannot tell what works for you or any member. We and I, can only share our experiences.
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Interview with Carlos Castaneda: http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/199603/my-lunch-carlos-castaneda
"Where would Jesus fit into all this? Where would Buddha fit in?"
"They are idealities," Castaneda replied. "They are too big, too gigantic to be real. They are deities. One is the Prince of Buddhism, the other is the Son of God . . . . Idealities cannot be used in a pragmatic movement.
"Allowing your perception to break the interpretation system--a tree ceases to be a tree and becomes sheer energy--that is a pragmatic maneuver. The things shamans deal with are extremely practical. They break down parameters of normal historical reality Magical passes are just one aspect of that."
Castaneda is very negative about religion. But these aren't your usual diatribes: "Leave Jesus on the cross. He's very happy there! Don Juan said, 'Don't bother him, leave him alone. Don't ask him "why are you there crucified." He'd go bananas trying to explain to you why.' So I did that. He said hello to me, and goodbye."
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"castanedda is very negative about religion."
Now, where did I talk about religion?
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Of course, religion has nothing to do with my personal parth. Religion can take to places you don't want to be.
For an example even buddism, generally they intend emptiness, they don't see that there is something worth intending behind emptiness. So, what you intend, that is what you get if your intent is strong...
Btw -- Bible was before religion of christianity. Somehow some keep talking about christianity as if it was already there with Jesus and the Bible.
Buddhists do not view emptiness as nothingness.
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actually christ trying to explain himself is a funny concept to understand
because it becomes limited to a one dimensional "thing"
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Interview with Carlos Castaneda: http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/199603/my-lunch-carlos-castaneda
"Where would Jesus fit into all this? Where would Buddha fit in?"
"They are idealities," Castaneda replied. "They are too big, too gigantic to be real. They are deities. One is the Prince of Buddhism, the other is the Son of God . . . . Idealities cannot be used in a pragmatic movement.
If anyone really would like to get deeper regarding Castaneda and his take on Jesus and the World religions I strongly recommend "his" last book : I Was Carlos Castaneda: The Afterlife Dialogues by Martin Goodman.
"The famed writer and sorcerer Carlos Castaneda steps back from the dead to lead him on a journey of understanding, and offer some secrets of shamanism, hallucinogens, religion and lost youth."
To invite someone like Carlos Castaneda into one's life, especially when he's dead, is asking for it. Martin Goodman, who barely escaped death in Amazonas, gets the full treatment from the old master and learns a thing or two to his own and the reader's advantage. To Castaneda's, too: I reckon he's in better form than ever before. ~ Francis Huxley, author of The Way of the Sacred
It is a very good book and Castaneda says among other things that its a curse to be well known. Religions, Castaneda claim, has their origin in the worship of mountains.
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jahn where do you get the essenes were toltec? i took them for jewish purists.
Well, it depends on how strict one should be with the label "Toltec". For us it in everday use means the teachings of Castaneda, Mares and Ruiz.
Now Toltec itself means A man/woman of Knowledge, one could say a person in alignment with the divine (purpose of Man).
Jesus had one teaching on the streets and in the gardens when he met the crowd and people. Jesus had another teaching for his disciples, the number of disciples varied but men was in a majority compared to women.
Don Juan talked about whole societies that Toltec ruled. The Toltec tradition is as old a Man on Earth and it has had many different form. What we know is the warriorship of Toltec teachers. In dark times the men of knowledge had monasteries, apart from the mundane and politics. It was in such a monastery, John the baptiste and Jesus got their training and teachings.
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It is some times best to read or listen to some other person talking about the same subject:
"Master gave a veiled teaching; he did not reveal all of his thoughts. Those who were interested by this first approach could follow him and become one of his disciples. One could be such a disciple without abandoning one's family or one's work.
Then the Master gave other teachings--deeper, more practical, more direct. He explained the meaning of the parables.
One of the higher steps for the circle of disciples was to repent and to receive John's baptism. It was the close disciples of the Master, the 12 apostles, who were to baptize the students who were entering a deeper level on the path.
Once a candidate had received the baptism, he entered an inner circle of a more restricted and secret School. Inside this circle, the Master transmitted a profound initiatic teaching, as well as certain precise methods. He said that he was working on the future of humanity through the intermediary of his students who had been thus prepared. The students of this secret School included women as well as men, although men were in the majority because of that time period. The discipline was strict, as in the Essene communities"
What we can learn from this Quote is that Jesus teachings to his disiples was Esoteric, so is the Toltec teachings that we know. Furthermore it was not about faith and salvation, it was about exercises, methods teaching etc even discipline is mentioned but not to forget, it was much about Joy and Laughter.
"Master Jesus himself was always careful about the place in which he taught or practiced the works of his Father-Mother with his disciples. Thus, when he was in Jerusalem, he went and taught the crowd in the square of the Gentiles or in certain places in the streets of the city. People knew where they could find him.
With his disciples, he liked to go outside of the city. Thus, he often arranged to meet the members of the inner circle in the garden of the 12 palm trees, which was located close to Bethany. There was a spring there, and the Master had explained at great length that this place was tied to the work which his faithful disciples would have to accomplish in the world in the centuries to come.
He had revealed to all of them the purpose of his mission, the future history of humanity, the different incarnations of his disciples, and the role they would have to play in this history to serve Christ. Once again, he had alluded to the mysterious role of the Apostle John, and he had placed him in parallel with John the Baptist, the prophet Eli and the Essene Brotherhood-Sisterhood."
Therefore the disciples addressed each other with "brother" or "sister".
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Buddhists do not view emptiness as nothingness.
I did address this here in same folder: http://restlesssoma.com.au/soma/index.php?topic=9399.msg95757#msg95757
There is an entire thread with numerous articles on the topic: http://restlesssoma.com.au/soma/index.php?topic=6124.0
But sigh, you know how this goes. Some people just like to make blanket statements without educating themselves. Its the lazy approach, know what I mean?
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thanks jahn for the info on jesus, the essenes and toltec. they do seem to have been a secretive group. while some still dont know about toltec, i think this became popular again with ruizs influence. do you think perhaps spirit is behind some of these mystery schools being made known? cause it seems what used to be secretive is not anymore, if that makes sense.
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So lets say a person is intending emptiness. What is then what he wants to achieve?
Buddhists do not view emptiness as nothingness.
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I might read them at some point if I don't forget. But this month I don't seem to have time for it :)
I did address this here in same folder: http://restlesssoma.com.au/soma/index.php?topic=9399.msg95757#msg95757
There is an entire thread with numerous articles on the topic: http://restlesssoma.com.au/soma/index.php?topic=6124.0
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taimi, you are not reading anything on buddhism and emptiness so you making a comment would be the same if i commented i know how bruce lee made chocolate chip cookies. buddhists do not intend emptiness. this is not something to become. and youre comment how they are somehow missing the mark not seeing beyond emptiness is ignorant. buddhists say the saying `form is emptiness, emptiness is form,` so they do not exclude form. the point they make is the dependent origin of all things. you are not independent and separate. you need air to breathe, food, water, sunlight, et al. there is no `intending emptiness` of the buddhists and they are not missing the mark as you imply. Juhani and i study buddhism and know what were talking about. to realize the true nature of things, and the truth of what buddhists say is simple: practice, study, and meditate.
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the intent of the buddhist, is that of the buddha he di not just want nirvana for himself, he was seeking a way others could be free of suffering. the buddhist intent is not just for himself, he wants to be free of samsara, and karma, by eliminating the craving. if he can do this, he can achieve nirvana. then he can be of use and help others to free themselves from suffering. that is their intent.
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and they are very right. to become selfless, to be concerned for others, to put others before yourself, is the dharma.
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You have air food and water and so on in this earth, of course we need it here. But not in the so called afterlife or eternal life. I suppose this is where we talk about different things, you talk about life as a physical human. I am more interested of what would be after death.
I sayd you get what you intend. What you intend to this after-death, that is what you might get, if your intent is strong enough. Why would I want to intend emptiness after death?
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buddhists do not intend emptiness after death. taimi, speaking to you about buddhism and emptiness is like speaking calculus to a two year old. you just throw things out there, a buddhist `term` and hope you can pass yourself off as knowledgable. if you wish to not to put importance on human life, then you really wont understand buddhism and the dharma. ultimately human life is what you make of it, and if you dont value it, i dont think youll value any afterlife any better. i dont live in a world where its all about me, and i have joy with my life. i often think to myself, perhaps this is it. if it is, i can accept that too. its been a good ride, either way.
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If you want to speak then speak, if you don't then don't.
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ultimately folks, we have spent what? seven years i think, on the spiritual. per our recent discussions, we all liste to don juan, but we do have our own varied perceptions. how i see it, death is adviser, and i do consult, and practice, and study. but lets be truthful here, we realy will not know what is going to happen to us until deaths door opens. this is shrouded in mystery, simply because we are alive, and human. what becomes of me then, i will confirm later. certain experiences ive had have given me ideas, but i am slow to draw conclusions on this. there is an old zen parable. a student asks a zen master, what happens when we die. he responds, i dont know. the student says, but youre a zen master! he simply says, yes, but not a dead one! what buddhism has taught me is to focus on this life, the here and now. right here, in this moment, thats reality. the future? no, the now is all that matters.
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and taimi i dont mind talking about buddhism and emptiness. the issue however, which is issue with all your postings, is you dont seem to want to learn anything new. you get an idea in your head, and even if michael corrects you, you stubbornly cling to your view. i moderate the buddhism folder, and i dont just post articles; i read every article before i post. why? because i see truth in what the buddhists say, they speak to me. i dont claim to be enlightened, but ive learned a lot. my reservation with you is i am well aware you have no interest in the subject. all you want to do is boast your view is right. and its tiresome to speak to someone like that.
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The infamous Heart Sutra
The Heart Sutra
When the Bodhisattva Avalokitesvara
Was coursing in the deep Prajna Paramita,
He perceived that all Five Skandhas are empty.
Thus he overcame all ills and suffering
O Sariputra, Form does not differ from Emptiness
And Emptiness does not differ from Form.
Form is Emptiness and Emptiness is Form.
The same is true for Feelings,
Perceptions, Volitions and Consciousness.
Sariputra, the characteristics of the
Emptiness of all Dharmas are
Non-Arising, Non-Ceasing, Non-Defiled,
Non-Pure, Non-Increasing, Non-Decreasing.
Therefore, in the Emptiness there are no Forms,
No Feelings, Perceptions, Volitions or Consciousness
No Eye, Ear, Nose, Tongue, Body or Mind;
No Form, Sound, Smell, Taste, Touch or Mind Object;
No Realm of the Eye,
Until we come to no realm of Consciousness.
No Ignorance and also no ending of Ignorance,
Until we come to no Old Age and Death and
No ending of Old Age and Death.
Also, there is no Truth of Suffering,
Of the Cause of Suffering,
Of the Cessation of Suffering, Nor of the Path
There is no Wisdom, and there is no Attainment whatsoever
Because there is nothing to be attained,
The Bodhisattva relying on Prajna Paramita has
No obstruction in his mind
Because there is no obstruction, he has no hearing,
And he passes beyond confused imagination.
And reaches Ultimate Nirvana.
The Buddhas of the Three Worlds,
By relying on Prajna Paramita
Have attained Supreme Enlightenment.
Therefore, the Prajna Paramita is the Great Mantra,
The Mantra of Illumination, the Supreme Mantra,
Which can truly protect one from all suffering without fail.
Therefore he uttered the Mantra of Prajna Parmita:
Gate Gate Paragate Parasamgate Bodhi Svaha
(Translation to the latter: "OM, GONE (GATE is gone), GONE, (then PARAGATE) GONE BEYOND, (PARASAMGATE) GONE COMPLETELY BEYOND, (BODHI) AWAKE, (SVAHA) SO BE IT. So: OM, GONE, GONE, GONE BEYOND, GONE COMPLETELY BEYOND, AWAKE, SO BE IT.")
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http://www.thebuddhadharma.com/web-archive/2012/8/5/the-fullness-of-emptiness.html
"In the Vietnamese literary canon, there are two lines of poetry by a twelfth-century Zen master of the Ly dynasty that say:
If the cosmos exists, then the smallest speck
of dust exists.
If the smallest speck of dust doesn’t exist,
then the whole cosmos doesn’t exist.
The poet means that the notions of existence and nonexistence are just created by our minds. He also said that “the entire cosmos can be put on the tip of a hair,” and “the sun and the moon can be seen in a mustard seed.” These images show us that one contains everything, and everything is just one.
Because form is emptiness, form is possible. In form we find everything else—feelings, perceptions, mental formations, and consciousness. “Emptiness” means empty of a separate self. It is full of everything, full of life. The word “emptiness” should not scare us. It is a wonderful word. To be empty does not mean to be nonexistent. If the sheet of paper is not empty, how could the sunshine, the logger, and the forest come into it? How could it be a sheet of paper? The cup, in order to be empty, has to be there. Form, feelings, perceptions, mental formations, and consciousness, in order to be empty of a separate self, have to be there.
Emptiness is the ground of everything. “Thanks to emptiness, everything is possible.” That is a declaration made by Nagarjuna, a Buddhist philosopher of the second century. Emptiness is quite an optimistic concept. If I am not empty, I cannot be here. And if you are not empty, you cannot be there. Because you are there, I can be here. This is the true meaning of emptiness. Form does not have a separate existence. Avalokita wants us to understand this point."
How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
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So lets say a person is intending emptiness. What is then what he wants to achieve?
Let's say person is meditating on emptiness. Why exactly would one do that? It boils down to what "emptiness" stands for in Buddhist view.
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http://www.cronksite.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/NagarjunaGC.pdf
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http://www.cronksite.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/NagarjunaGC.pdf
Very nice find runningstream thank you! :)
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Let's say person is meditating on emptiness. Why exactly would one do that? It boils down to what "emptiness" stands for in Buddhist view.
Juhani, Ive been to Buddhist meditation groups several times and say The Heart Sutra, very commonly read. Its a good precursor to emptiness and what it means I think. There are many descriptions, but really, only one can 'know it' by meditating on it.
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You have air food and water and so on in this earth, of course we need it here. But not in the so called afterlife or eternal life. I suppose this is where we talk about different things, you talk about life as a physical human. I am more interested of what would be after death.
I sayd you get what you intend. What you intend to this after-death, that is what you might get, if your intent is strong enough. Why would I want to intend emptiness after death?
Im going to address this a bit. Taimi, I am not singling you out. Really I am writing for anyone in here, or say other travelers who may arrive one day. Basically on the afterlife.
What I believe, and some do here, is consciousness travels. Buddhists say it is a 'stream of consciousness' hindus say a soul, Toltec, simply awareness and we know what awareness is. Basically, there are slight differences, but I believe we are speaking of the same thing, in what travels in the end.
Certain aspects of this 'stream of consciousness,' will not differ all that much upon travel. So say if you were unhappy in life, an afterlife, whether into the infinite, whether into the beak to be spat out again, or a new life, if you were not 'happy,' if you could not find any joy in life, you thought life sucked, or you were just hoping for something 'better than here,' ultimately, no matter where you go, where you end up, that consciousness will remain the same. That is the lesson of samsara. If you cannot free yourself of suffering here, you wont 'here there or anywhere.' You will still be miserable. Say even you end up in a peaceful paradise like Jesus spoke of. Say that it is. You will not like it much better than the human realm, if your attitude on life, is bad, here. There is a saying in the magical folk, 'as above so below.' I think of that, and ultimately somethings do change, but somethings remain the same. The only definite way, of getting 'out' of the suffering, to be free of this wheel of samsara, is to find the happiness, the bliss, the contentment, and the joy, in the here and now. Here and now, is Buddhist, its alse a big thing by Eckhart Tolle, and with his help, has helped many others. Many people are getting 'hip' that the here and now, is where we achieve our goals. Some say life is like a school, and it really is. This is where we get our education. And many like michael say weve attended school many lifetimes, over and over, and we do so, because there is a lot of learning to do, which ultimately is developing the consciousness. To evolve, to grow, so we can acheive our ultimate goal.
Michael and I agree the paths do diverge. Sure some might end up in a heaven, hey maybe they're right? But that consciousness, will be what will be. If one was angry and bitter in life, they will be, wherever they end up. If they were violent, they will be violent where they end up. If they were loving, then love wil prevail and guide them. So ultimately we must find peace, here, and now. Not later, not anticipate some 'happy ending' for us. The work must always be here, in this life. This place, this 'here and now' is the determining factor in what our result will be. Life is our cause, as everything is cause and effect.
Here and now, as I said, is where we experience the eternal. No place else. If we cannot free ourselves here, we will be in bondage, 'there.'
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I will add on this, and thought of this later, I just had a dream of ghosts. I have had two encounters with ghosts, which i consider stronger than the ibs. Once with a ouija board, and once at nanas house. Both times, these ghosts were so strong they could move things in the room, create hot and cold spots, rock chairs, and even turn on and off a tv. These spirits get 'trapped' and their existence validates what I speak of. This consciousness, somethings change, but somethings remain the same. They weren't happy, or say their consciousness was the 'yucky stuff" (im stealing michaels guardian term). I know they exist. They visit in dreams and bother me at times. I cant help them there, maybe one day, but I am pretty powerless to aid the stuck. When they are very creepy and nasty, I have found I have to be very firm and command them away. To go into the light or whatever it may be. So another reason it is imperative to get 'unstuck' and find joy and happiness. It lightens the consciousness, so you can ascend. Feel the vibration eh?
K heading out. Nitey nite folks.
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There are many descriptions, but really, only one can 'know it' by meditating on it.
Good point!
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there is an old zen parable. a student asks a zen master, what happens when we die. he responds, i dont know. the student says, but youre a zen master! he simply says, yes, but not a dead one!
Heh, heh - that was a good statement!
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since we have been discussing jesus and the gospels, i have noticed some do seem to believe in jesus, but many of us walk the toltec path, or say employ don juan teachings and the like. so i was wondering, for those who do believe, how does jesus `fit` with the teachings of don juan? very interested in everyones take on this.
It struck me that we had a muslim as a member in the Toltec Mystery School of Light.
Beside following the practices in the class, he used to do a pilgrimage each other year. And he had a muslim teacher too, that he referred to a few times.
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Let's be clear, no matter what anyone says about 'emptiness' in Buddhism, it remains a complex and contentious concept. There are many different views on this over the centuries and between the two different main types of Buddhism.
If one is interested in the debate about it within Buddhism, then reading these links is essential. Frankly, it is a very interesting concept, because it causes Buddhism to be set to a different side than every other religious or mystical tradition.
The idea that Buddha stopped short of full realisation because he got stuck in Nirvana, is a common theme from those religious traditions that are on the 'other side' so to speak. A good friend of Steiner wrote a considerably intelligent criticism of Buddha on this basis, of which Steiner vaguely endorsed, although not completely, as even Steiner knew he was treading into mystical waters there.
The problem for the 'others' is that they simply can't conceive of a spiritual tradition that would pursue emptiness. The very idea is anathema to their whole identity. And this is the essential point of Buddhism. In essence, Buddhism is saying that your identity, along with everything in it that seeks any aspiration, is the problem. Not until you drop all that, and accept the truth of emptiness, do you find something of lasting value - but what that is can not be described because our language is built on 'something', not 'nothing'. They say, you must experience.
Steiner's view was that Buddhism and it's counterpart in Hinduism, would never take hold in Europe, because Europeans had far too strong egos to accept the concept of emptiness. They were far to materialistic to ever conceive of giving up their possessions, be that physical, social or spiritual. Thus Christianity was a better spiritual tradition to flourish in Europe, as it had the idea of building your mansion in heaven.
Don Juan took CC to a place, which was obviously heaven, and showed him what was at stake here. With DJ, CC was able to see clearly that this place was an illusion - ie, empty.
I covered this in my book, if anyone ever got near the end which I expected few would. It is the Yin Yang sign all over again. Only in emptiness will you find permanence, but you can't just jump to that, or you will only find emptiness - you have to give it all up, or it won't work. You have to travel fully through the journey to emptiness to discover what lies at its heart. This is why DJs group were so astounded at the leap the tenant made into the third attention, after living in the second for thousands of years - they couldn't believe he would ultimately give up everything.
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my computer turned weird when i tried to post about this and went blank .
so i did not respond and then read your post ,
Jesus "merged " with something . that s all i know .
call it above or christ as above so below , the father ,spirit , god or whatever ,
that will shake your boots , walking upon water , with the father , no longer of
the body although still there , within spirit , led .
i will sound stupid trying to explain this its true .
walking within spirit as spirit , while alive . "Etheric"
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Steiner's view was that Buddhism and it's counterpart in Hinduism, would never take hold in Europe, because Europeans had far too strong egos to accept the concept of emptiness. They were far to materialistic to ever conceive of giving up their possessions, be that physical, social or spiritual.
I like that "spiritual possesions". When poking with the concept, it actually exists.
Thus Christianity was a better spiritual tradition to flourish in Europe, as it had the idea of building your mansion in heaven.
"Heavenly Bank Account" by Frank Zappa
And if these words you do not heed
Your pocket book just kinda might recede
When some man comes along and claims a godly need
He will clean you out right through your tweed
That's right, remember there is a big difference between
kneeling down and bending over...
He's got twenty million dollars
In his Heavenly Bank Account.. .
All from those chumps who was
Born again
Oh yeah, oh yeah
He's got seven limousines
And a private plane...
All for use of his
Special Friends
Oh yeah, oh yeah
He's got thousand-dollar suits
And a Wembley Tie...
Girls love to stroke it
While he's on the phone
Oh yeah, oh yeah
At the House of Representatives
He's a groovy guy. . .
When he Gives Thanks He is not alone. . .
He is dealin'
He is really dealin' IRS can't determine
Where The Hook is
It is easy with the Bible
To pretend that
You're in Show Biz
They won't get him
They will never get him
For the naughty stuff
That he did
It is best in cases like this
To pretend that
You are stupid
He's got Presidential Help
All along the way
He says the grace
While the lawyers chew
Oh yeah
They sure do
And the Governors agree to say: "He's a lovely man!"
He makes it easier for
Them to screw
All of you...
Yes, that's true!
'Cause he helps put
The Fear of God
In the Common Man
Snatchin' up money
Everywhere he can
Oh yeah Oh yeah
/.../
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michael i can agree with steiner buddhism say would not be popular for the loss of ego. but really how could one retain it, when much ado of it is formed based off this body? i wonder.