Soma
Tools of the Path => Death [Public] => Topic started by: Firestarter on June 16, 2009, 03:58:27 AM
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Yesterday on break outside I was standing outside, and said to death, "I want to feel you. Then, to my left, I felt this intense heat to my left, which wasnt my imagination.
I realized death is right near us, closer than the jugular vein. I had that thought, would I be ready to dart past the eagle, as I watched a seagull fly overhead.
I need wings, I thought. Wings.
Are you ready? So I thought I would pose the question (meat) on here, who thinks they're ready for the encounter with the eagle now? Or do you feel there is more to learn, before that moment?
Are you ready?
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Nope... not ready
Mind you... after this discovery.. I also discovered that whether I was ready or not mattered little to Death. :)
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Rage rage against the dying of the light...
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Rage rage against the dying of the light...
To me, that's the key. As long as we are passively accepting of the knowledge that we are beings who are going to die, we possess little motivation to consider other possibilities.
Am I ready? Yes.
Am I raging? Yes.
Will I go peacefully into that long good night? Not a chance.
Death is a fine advisor, but he is no friend of mine. Just a tyrant who has convinced us he is real... and sometimes I think we make him real through our beliefs.
How's that for raging? :o
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Della, are you saying death is not real, I dont get it? Or we have to make death unreal somehow?
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Della, are you saying death is not real, I dont get it? Or we have to make death unreal somehow?
I'm saying that my own experience & research tends to indicate that 99.99999% of what we think of as "real" actually isn't. Put another way: death may be just another program that has been put onto us since birth, as a result of our dualistic thinking. e.g., if we're born, surely we must die.
Says who?
I think of the tenant (aka the death defier) of Castaneda's works - a being who seemingly went from an organic being to an inorganic being as a matter of will/intent, without ever passing through the door of "death". I've had the word out on my website & these forums for years that I'd love to meet this being, but... heh heh... so far, it's a no-show. Ah well...
The bottom line is that I have come to wonder if we have within ourselves the ability to achieve transmogrification as opposed to the usual path of transformation.
Death certainly appears to be certain. And yet, as any warrior knows, appearances can be deceiving when one learns the art of shifting perception.
"All things exist within the realm of possibility, but only some things will be forced to go thru the motions of actually occurring." (Quantum theory)
That being the case, I'm just exercising my right to allow and - whenever possible - summon the "impossible."
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Well definitely in carlos's works he addressed this, like even don juan leaving the world by burning with the fire from within. But still, the physical body, carlos died of natural causes and I still cant see how we couldnt leave that behind, or say, transform it.
Like the cases of tibetan lamas found sitting up in meditation dead, but their bodies dont 'rot' like normal people's do. They left the world in an unusual way, and thier bodies seem to preserve better than others. There could be something in that, but they still leave their bodies behind.
I think it would be cool to be able to just skip death and transform the body, but i think the 'other body' is made for that. But that one has to be developed, which is still 'us' but say with folks who think the physical body is alll there is, they may not have a chance against the eagle and death.
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Death is a fine advisor, but he is no friend of mine. Just a tyrant who has convinced us he is real...
Don't you think, for a Warrior, Death is really your only friend?
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Death is our eternal companion. I wonder if the deal is, and maybe what della means but, the perception of death, who, what, the bugger is. That may be the riddle. Death in the physical, when we view others or whats around us, appears as an ending, finite. Gone gone gone. But a good seer knows death is actually a transformation. It cant really 'end.' All is impermanent, but that doesnt mean all just is finite, stops, because this would be stasis, and there is no stasis. Death, to myself, is there to prevent stasis, and just part of the way things are, a transitional phase. What happens upon the transisition, is the trick.
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There really is no such thing as stasis. If you think about it, everything is always changing, from moment to moment nothing really stays the same.
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There really is no such thing as stasis. If you think about it, everything is always changing, from moment to moment nothing really stays the same.
Right, and remember its part of the way of suffering. Beings suffer cause change, doesnt always go the way they 'want' it to go. They dont want to accept it. If change goes in their favor, good deal. If not in their favor, bad deall.
Also, death, one of the worst programs, is that all roots of the ego lie in the fear of death. Ego is created, for the purpose of avoiding death. This isnt the permanent 'self' that is always there, actual self, but at the core, a fearful, and illusory being. Thats the difference.
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“Death is our eternal companion. It is always to our left, an arm’s length behind us. Death is the only wise adviser that a warrior has. Whenever he feels that everything is going wrong and he’s about to be annihilated, he can turn to his death and ask if that is so. His death will tell him that he is wrong, that nothing really matters outside its touch. His death will tell him, ‘I haven’t touched you yet.’”
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“Death is our eternal companion. It is always to our left, an arm’s length behind us. Death is the only wise adviser that a warrior has. Whenever he feels that everything is going wrong and he’s about to be annihilated, he can turn to his death and ask if that is so. His death will tell him that he is wrong, that nothing really matters outside its touch. His death will tell him, ‘I haven’t touched you yet.’”
That's what I am talking about. 8)
Don't you think, for a Warrior, Death is your only friend?
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See another thing I wonder, are Death and the Double synonymous?
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Don't you think, for a Warrior, Death is really your only friend?
Not at all. Anything that seeks to essentially obliterate awareness is hardly what I would call a friend. In that regard, "death" is just another word for "the eagle." I think even warriors have a tendency to dress death up in fancy clothes so as to disguise his skeletal grin. As I said to Ellen, I have no "fear" of death per se, but I also see no reason to surrender to his "inevitability" if that inevitability is just a program and a belief system.
It may well be that the *ultimate* shift of the assemblage point would be a movement of awareness beyond the dark illusion of mortal death. Others are free to accept death and view it as a 'friend', but I won't be joining them in that particular viewpoint.
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See another thing I wonder, are Death and the Double synonymous?
Aha... now that's an interesting question, isn't it? It's something I've pondered over the years, and have concluded based on many conversations with Orlando that the double is the revolving door into and out of death. But that's a much more complicated topic than I have time for right now, though I'd love to delve deeper into it another day. :)
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Anything that seeks to essentially obliterate awareness is hardly what I would call a friend
Obliterate awareness....
Interesting concept.
Hmmm.....
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To 'befriend' death, is not an accurate term.
It can be used poetically, especially to give a distinction from the fear of death, but then it is used like a climber of Everest says she has befriended Everest. Obviously this is no ordinary friendship. A friend in the sense as someone would say, "Hello death, my old friend." It has an element of irony.
More accurate would be DJ's reference that death sits with him on the mat. Meaning that death is no stranger, and that it sits at his side lending him clarity in all that he does. Thus you could say death has been a friend in that it has bestowed wisdom, but death could never be termed a friend in the normal use of that word.
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Rage rage against the dying of the light...
"Do not go gently into that dark night"
I am not so sure about this approach.
Many years ago when I first heard this poem, I was shaking myself out of the common lethargy, so these words resonated very strongly with me.
But once I adopted a life of death-awareness, I have changed my stance. The part I retain from these sentiments is the idea of not allowing myself to be lulled into false security - to be ready to fight at all costs against the enchantment of accepting death as just an inevitable event sometime between fifty and ninety.
But I also know that at times when I am confronted by death in situations that happen quickly and I have no control - like when a passenger in a car that is spinning out of control - my body relaxes and I 'collect' myself without a trace of rage. I go very calm and secretly excited.
It is important to know when to fight death, and when to stop resisting, to open out with eyes wide - to give oneself to death without surrendering. Words fail.
I feel I have dropped the rage, yet I make myself a very difficult target, with determination and attitude. I suppose you could say I fight death tooth and nail with intelligence, seriousness and cold blood.
Those who I see 'rage', ie with emotion, tend to be all puff and bluster - emotion can't sustain for this task. I am always suspect of people who make a huge fuss emotionally - I have come to realise they are never around when the real work needs doing.
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Obliterate awareness....
Interesting concept.
Hmmm.....
That IS the function of the eagle, isn't it? It devours awareness and essentially redistributes our component parts back to the drawing board to be used again. The universal recycling bin.
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But I also know that at times when I am confronted by death in situations that happen quickly and I have no control - like when a passenger in a car that is spinning out of control - my body relaxes and I 'collect' myself without a trace of rage. I go very calm and secretly excited.
Indeed. This accurately describes my experience as well these days, as well as a lot of other things you said below. When I talk about "raging" against death, it is an "intellectual" or stalker's rage - not the emotional bruhaha that only drags one into a state of helpless lack of control. I rage against death in the same way I would rage against any injustice which we are asked to blindly accept without questioning.
This raises the question: "Oh my god, does Della think Death is an injustice?" You betcha I do! Reason being... I think that is quite probably the reaction we need to have in order to wage our strategy for slipping past the eagle, or whatever anyone cares to call it.
Dying.
The razor's edge between awareness and oblivion.
As I see it, it has taken me about 10 billion years to become who/what I am. 10 billion years of a cycling of molecules, a mixing of cells, a dance of sperm and egg. And, having achieved "awareness," it is not something I intend to "surrender" just because certain religions or schools of thought try to tell us we will live again, or it's a "natural" cycle, or whatever the platitude-du-jour may be. *heh* That's another aspect of what I mean when I say death itself may be yet another program (the biggest one of all) put onto us since long before we were born. The moment we accept ANY definition or explanation that is not wholly our own is the minute we succumb to the program, even if it doesn't play out for years to come. We place our "expectations" (the sum total of our other programming) onto some idea of death... and we move toward that "inevitability", whether it actually is inevitable or not. And, in doing so, we fall into the lethal trap of creating our own reality.
It is important to know when to fight death, and when to stop resisting, to open out with eyes wide - to give oneself to death without surrendering. Words fail.
Yup - I wholly agree. I would say for my own personal mindset, however, that the only time this will occur is when the semi has crashed through the windshield at 90 mph or the piano from that second floor window has actually crushed my skull. *heh* Until we are dead, we are still alive. And as long as I'm alive, it is my choice (made with total awareness) to take the approach that death is a tulpa I have created to stalk me, just as I stalk myself with his input. A dark and dangerous tango forever spinning at the crack between the worlds.
Now, this brings me back to what Ellen said about death and the double perhaps being the same. There's certainly an element of truth in that, particularly if we have set it up that way. The double may serve as the seducer - the lover who comes to us at our last breath and says, simply, "Let go. I've been here all along." And in letting go, we shift our awareness from the mortal self into the eternal double... death and life, all at the same time. We would go willingly to our lover, without fear, and that, to me, is one of the most crucial roles the double plays in the process of our evolution.
I feel I have dropped the rage, yet I make myself a very difficult target, with determination and attitude. I suppose you could say I fight death tooth and nail with intelligence, seriousness and cold blood.
Indeed. My approach as well. Better watch out, Michael. *heh* You say you're a dreamer, but that ruthlessness you're describing is the backbone of a master stalker. ;D
Great discussion!
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Are you ready to die?
I heard a line when I rewatched "The Seventh Seal" a couple of weeks ago which got me to re-evaluate my own 'readiness' to die.
Death asks the Knight, "Are you prepared?"
The Knight answers, "My flesh isn't. But I am."
I'd concur, my flesh isn't ready: it loves the warmth of a cat in my lap, the wind, sunshine, the sounds of birds, the beauty of flowers, the mischief of blue jays, the antics of hummingbirds "too" much.
Before I came to California this last trip, I might have glibly answered that I, like the Knight, am ready to die spiritually. But I am now not so sure, at all.
So I don't have an answer to this question.
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So I don't have an answer to this question.
Addendum: except to say that in some sense, I died a long time ago. All of these wonderful experiences (cats, birds, wind, etc.) have been gravy, so to speak.
Additionally, I'm in the last few days of my time here in California. It's 99% a realistic possibility that I'll never be back. Every hour of this awareness is a torturous hand down my throat, reaching into my heart. The things we find ourselves attached to, after all -- for all my bravado that I was separate.
Saying good-bye for real, especially to the things here (on the earth) which bring such joy and love, is the hardest thing, I now find, in a way I never knew before. And I've had plenty of deaths before in my life. It's all so predictable, eh? I'll end up shaking off this maya tomorrow, but I'm just as human as I ever was, it seems to me today.
So no, I am probably not ready to die.
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That IS the function of the eagle, isn't it? It devours awareness and essentially redistributes our component parts back to the drawing board to be used again. The universal recycling bin.
Yes, they say that is the function of the Eagle to devour awareness, however I don't know that our awareness would be obliterated upon Death, just metamorphosed.
Still, I thought we were speaking of "Death", not the "Eagle". (I do not see them as the synonymous).
Hence my comments about Death *obliterating awareness* being an interesting concept. I do not quite see that way. :) so it is interesting to me to try and fathom.
Meaning that death is no stranger, and that it sits at his side lending him clarity in all that he does. Thus you could say death has been a friend in that it has bestowed wisdom, but death could never be termed a friend in the normal use of that word.
This feels right to me, too.
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There's the movie that the title escapes me, but its from Bruce Lee's script The Silent Flute, "Death, come anytime, welcome guest." Ive said that before to death, in my own way, I will still fight death cause im not ready to die, but at the same time something about making death into a loosely held friend is sobering.
I think thats what DJ intended, like all those Lamas who speak of death and how nothing can be known unless they understand death. Churches, for example, dont deal with death except for at funerals, but they mainly speak of eternal life and how its a guarantee. But with no work? No work on being impeccable? Losing self importance, shedding the human form? I think we have to do those things, and of course, gain awareness, so we have awareness to be able to find our opening upon death to slip past the eagle.
Really, we have to be working on our opening right now, in the here and now. That takes work. That can only be done with work.
Btw, I still kinda like rage rage against the dying of the light. It sounds good to me, so dunno, lol.
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Yes, they say that is the function of the Eagle to devour awareness, however I don't know that our awareness would be obliterated upon Death, just metamorphosed.
Out of curiosity, what kind of metamorphosis are you envisioning? And upon what would you base your conclusion? Not trying to be argumentative - hope you won't take it that way. When I hear people say death is "just a transition", I am always curious as to what they are envisioning, and why. Many times, I think we tell ourselves comforting stories because we truly don't know. None of us can really know, after all, so death is like the big drop at the end of the world, where all that remains is a huge question mark. And, as humans are wont to do, we may tend to make up stories to fill in that frightening void.
The hope would be that in weaving our tales of hope/belief, we MIGHT empower ourselves to become more than "nature" intended for us - i.e., instead of just dropping off the cliff into the maw of The Big Nothing, MAYBE we can weave energetic webs for ourselves so that we CREATE our metamorphosis through the Will-ful manifestation of quantum energy. Reason I say this is that I don't personally *see* or believe that any sort of "transformation" or "metamorphosis" is in any manner guaranteed. Others would say that our "spirit" lives on regardless of what we do or don't do in life, but that's where I part company with most traditional schools of thought. My personal experience & research has more or less proven (to me anyway) that WE are the source. Us. Fragile human mortals. And the only "guardian angels" or "spirit" we have is that which we nurture for ourselves in the form of our double and our infinite possibility.
Of course, I wholly acknowledge that this is not a popular idea, and also wholly understand that no one else on the planet may agree with me. And that's okay, too. No consensus required. :) If I'm wrong, I'll crash & burn alone - which is why I always try to hammer home the notion that each person has to form their own consensus of One. I always used to start my workshops with the statement: "Don't follow me because I don't know where you want to go." Heh.
Still, I thought we were speaking of "Death", not the "Eagle". (I do not see them as the synonymous).
Hence my comments about Death *obliterating awareness* being an interesting concept. I do not quite see that way. :) so it is interesting to me to try and fathom.
I do see death and the eagle as somewhat synonymous - sure, I suppose we could try and separate them, but ultimately one leads to the other and so it's like trying to separate rain water from the ocean. Once they have met, there is no undoing them into their separate states.
I think the main point here is that death and/or the eagle obliterates our awareness if we have not taken sufficient steps to "evolve" beyond that inevitability. That, to me, is the core definition of what "evolution" is all about - amassing sufficient cohesion of awareness to withstand/evade the effects of the eagle, and the "shock" of death. The double appears to be the most promising possibility within that realm of infinite possibility.
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I think thats what DJ intended, like all those Lamas who speak of death and how nothing can be known unless they understand death. Churches, for example, dont deal with death except for at funerals, but they mainly speak of eternal life and how its a guarantee. But with no work? No work on being impeccable? Losing self importance, shedding the human form? I think we have to do those things, and of course, gain awareness, so we have awareness to be able to find our opening upon death to slip past the eagle.
Good points El.
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I didn't say "death is just a transition' so I hope I am not one of the people you are speaking of. My point was that I don't see any 'obliteration of awareness" occurring. To me that is not possible. Awareness IS, always.
I'm not scared of Death. I've met Death on a few ocasions and obviously lived to tell. And also use death as an advisor and know there's nothing to be afraid of, so I am not basing my viewpoints on fear. (Not saying I am ready to go right now, because sure there are a few things I'd still like to do...)
It's just the way I see, Della.
Just how I see.
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We have to remember too that we've already met death, and are already 'dead.' Now, what that means may be in the eye of the beholder, but:
"A warrior considers himself already dead, so there is nothing to lose. The worst has already happened to him, therefore he's clear and calm; judging him by his acts or by his words, one would never suspect that he has witnessed everything."
I suppose when looking in the here and now, I can say no matter what has been undertaken, we can all say there is something we've experienced that is the worst that has already happened. We already met death, died, and now, we're alive, but in another different, unusual way. Now, not all in here may say their warriors, some may be men or women of knowledge, or just say 'naguals' or dreamers or stalkers. I say for myself 'warrior' cause I feel I fit the paradigm of that. I also employ those techniques in my life.
Like today was sitting on the porch, im off the next two days and have my two visits with the kids. Death, sitting in the left chair, reminded me in my frustration of visits and with sis's ignorance, if I were physically dead I couldnt interact with them at all. That jolted me enought to say, 'hey, perhaps these visits are a blessing,' they're not some curse. And its just a temporary thing I have to go thru til I get my clean bill of health. Plus I got a new case manager who has more experience in court, and helping people get their kids back, so I already see my unbending intent, manifesting in various ways. Its now just a matter of keeping my center, and not allowing my sis or her crap, sway me to and fro anymore. Keep my visits solid, and just have fun with the kids.
So death is a good adviser like that. "What if you couldnt see them at all?" Good enough question for me to ponder. Things could be so much worse, and death does remind us, things could be worse, we got 'time' for however long, if we're still kicking and breathing.
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What about this:
Death may be the greatest of all human blessings. ~Socrates
Agree or disagree?
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What about this:
Death may be the greatest of all human blessings. ~Socrates
Agree or disagree?
As far as being the greatest teacher we could ever ask for, You Bet!
And, on top of that, (one of) the only way(s) to Freedom.
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True. We still gotta deal with death if we're going to find that opening to freedom. I just want to be ready for it, prepared. Not cut before my prime and then recycled in the eagle beak bin, lol.
Id still like to ponder more why the Eagle wants our experiences so bad though. What would the Eagle gain from all those experiences?
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See another thing I wonder, are Death and the Double synonymous?
One thing I notice for me personally, and I don't know if it's the same for everyone is that when I feel Death I definitely feel him to my left, around my left arm (almost rib area). The other day when I was working on employing my double, I felt her/him (it?) on my right side, like attached to my right arm/shoulder, promenading.
So that's one noticeable difference, at least for me.
Anyone else?
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I didn't say "death is just a transition' so I hope I am not one of the people you are speaking of. My point was that I don't see any 'obliteration of awareness" occurring. To me that is not possible. Awareness IS, always.
To me, awareness really isn't, "always". Where were you before you were born? Where are you when you are under anesthesia? Where are you when you are in a coma? This is simply an example I use when someone says something to the effect that death is a metamorphosis or a transition or a journey. While all of those things MAY be true, we really have no evidence to support that, other than what we want-to-believe, and/or purely subjective experience. That's why the work of the warrior is so important - we do the best we can while we're alive, hoping it will be enough. Maybe it will, maybe it won't. But I just don't feel I have the luxury of saying, "Awareness IS, always." You may be right. I'd be delighted if that's the case - seriously! It just doesn't track with my own experience, but that's okay, too.
I'm not scared of Death. I've met Death on a few ocasions and obviously lived to tell. And also use death as an advisor and know there's nothing to be afraid of, so I am not basing my viewpoints on fear. (Not saying I am ready to go right now, because sure there are a few things I'd still like to do...)
It's just the way I see, Della.
Just how I see.
Hope you also know that anything I say here isn't personal. I don't question how you *see*. But at times I do question the conclusions we humans come to - including my own. It's why I tend to push the envelope when I ask questions like, "What makes you think so?" Sometimes when we really get down to examining our beliefs (particularly about death), we start to realize that so much of what we think or believe is just a cumulative result of stuff we've read or been told or whatever. Example: I used to "believe" at least to a small degree in the idea of "reincarnation" - but when I really got down to recapitulating WHY I believed it, it all came down to belief, faith and acceptance of doctrine. IOW, it had nothing to do w/ my own experience or even my own *seeing*.
When I became a seer, I found I could no longer be comforted by what I want-to-believe. The upside, of course, is that when we realize just HOW alone we are on this path is when we (hopefully) take responsibility for our own evolution, our own survival beyond the eagle. What I have *seen* is that if we don't do that, then our awareness will be forfeit when we die.
That's just how I see it. Might be an interesting comparison of inventories to look at how and why each of us has come to such different conclusions. I'd be open to that discussion if you are. :)
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To me, awareness really isn't, "always". Where were you before you were born? Where are you when you are under anesthesia? Where are you when you are in a coma?
Before I was born, there was awareness, and there will still be awareness after I die. Awareness does not depend on me, my life, death or consciousness. The Ocean is vast and forever.
I think we'll have to agree to disagree here. :)
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True. We still gotta deal with death if we're going to find that opening to freedom. I just want to be ready for it, prepared. Not cut before my prime and then recycled in the eagle beak bin, lol.
Id still like to ponder more why the Eagle wants our experiences so bad though. What would the Eagle gain from all those experiences?
Hey, Ellen...
I'm not sure the eagle "wants" anything at all. To me, it's entirely impersonal, and the eagle isn't even particularly "sentient." It's simply the eagle's function to devour awareness, just as a black hole's function is to devour matter/light/time. In fact, that's probably a pretty good analogy - the eagle and a black hole. To the black hole, it isn't personal - the black hole doesn't particularly want to suck in everything in its path. It's just what it does - its sole function.
So in that regard, I *see* the eagle as a recycling bin. It's job is to recycle awareness and redistribute it back into circulation for re-use. Every once in awhile, I see a Coke can rolling down the side of the road. Makes me think of the warrior who slipped past the recycling bin.
Heh.
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Before I was born, there was awareness, and there will still be awareness after I die. The Ocean is vast and forever.
I think we'll have to agree to disagree here. :)
Okay - we can agree to disagree. I'm fine with that. However, I do think that it tends to terminate all discussion and promotes a return to comfort zones. *shrugs* That, too, is okay.
And yet...
You say there was awareness before you were born and there will be awareness after you die. To me, that's a fascinating statement, and opens a world of awesome possibility. I'd love to hear more about it, but only if you're comfortable sharing it. For myself, I have no sense of awareness before I was born, and no evidence that there will be awareness after I die.
I'll leave it up to you. If you really want me to drop it, consider it dropped. Just trying to push the envelope a bit.
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Maybe Della, we are getting mixed up on the term "awareness". I just googled it and found the standard definition.
"Awareness is a term referring to the ability to perceive, to feel, or to be conscious of events, objects or patterns, which does not necessarily imply understanding. In biological psychology, awareness comprises a human's or an animal's perception and cognitive reaction to a condition or event"
Not what I am speaking of at all when I say "awareness IS (always)". Here's what I mean
From the Active Side of Infinity:
"You already know," he began, "that there exists in the universe
a perenial force, which the sorcerers of ancient Mexico called the
dark sea of awareness. While they were at the maximum of their perceiving powers, they saw something that made them shake in their pantaloonies, if they were wearing any. They saw that the dark sea of awareness is responsible not only for the awareness of organisms, but also for the awareness of entities that don't have an organism."
"Death's hidden option is exclusively for sorcerers. They are the only ones who have, to my knowledge, read the fine print. For them, the option is pertinent and functional. For average human beings, death means the termination of their awareness, the end of their organisms. For the
inorganic beings, death means the same: the end of their awareness.
In both cases, the impact of death is the act of being sucked into the
dark sea of awareness. Their individual awareness, loaded with their life experiences, breaks its boundaries, and awareness as energy spills out into the dark sea of awareness."
As always don Juan explains perfectly!
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Della, I put the rest of the piece here:
http://restlesssoma.com.au/soma/index.php?topic=7001.0
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Maybe Della, we are getting mixed up on the term "awareness". I just googled it and found the standard definition.
"Awareness is a term referring to the ability to perceive, to feel, or to be conscious of events, objects or patterns, which does not necessarily imply understanding. In biological psychology, awareness comprises a human's or an animal's perception and cognitive reaction to a condition or event"
Not what I am speaking of at all when I say "awareness IS (always)". Here's what I mean
From the Active Side of Infinity:
"You already know," he began, "that there exists in the universe
a perenial force, which the sorcerers of ancient Mexico called the
dark sea of awareness. While they were at the maximum of their perceiving powers, they saw something that made them shake in their pantaloonies, if they were wearing any. They saw that the dark sea of awareness is responsible not only for the awareness of organisms, but also for the awareness of entities that don't have an organism."
"Death's hidden option is exclusively for sorcerers. They are the only ones who have, to my knowledge, read the fine print. For them, the option is pertinent and functional. For average human beings, death means the termination of their awareness, the end of their organisms. For the
inorganic beings, death means the same: the end of their awareness.
In both cases, the impact of death is the act of being sucked into the
dark sea of awareness. Their individual awareness, loaded with their life experiences, breaks its boundaries, and awareness as energy spills out into the dark sea of awareness."
As always don Juan explains perfectly!
Lori - thanks so much for this expansion! It does indeed explain where/why we are talking apples & oranges. LOL. I am essentially in completely agreement w/ the segment you posted re don Juan's explanation of awareness, the dark sea of awareness, etc.
When DJM talks about the sorcerer's awareness continuing beyond the dark sea, that's also what I'm referring to - the uniqueness of "self", for lack of a better word. When I have *seen* the dark sea of awareness (twice), it was essentially a melting pot of all awareness - no unique I-Am awareness, just what would amount to the energy which is consciousness, and available for distribution to any/all living things. Impersonal. Rather like the old biblical notion of "god", when he had to call himself into being by saying I-Am - rising out of that dark sea to become an I-am as opposed to just the raw material of consciousness.
So, in that regard, sure, I would agree that awareness existed before I was born and will continue after I die. And yet, I can also get to what DJM is saying:
"For a sorcerer, death is a unifiying factor. Instead of disintegrating the organism, as is ordinarily the case, death unifies it."
"How can death unify anything?" I protested.
"Death for a sorcerer," he said, "terminates the reign of individual moods in the body. The old sorcerers believed it was the dominion of the different parts of the body that ruled the moods and the actions of the total body; parts that become dysfunctional drag the rest of the body to chaos, such as, for instance, when you yourself get sick from eating junk. In that case, the mood of your stomach affects everything else. Death eradicates the dominion of those individual parts. It unifies their awareness into one single unit."
Another way to put it: death for a sorcerer results in achieving the totality of oneself - the unification of all previously fragmented aspects into a single assemblage point.
And still another way of looking at it is that the sorcerer moves the sum total of his awareness from his "body" into his double - and the double itself is the energetic vessel of cohesion which is, also, the unifying factor.
Again - THANK YOU! - for taking this that one step further. I now feel I know where you're coming from and hope this clarifies my position as well.
:)
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"Obliterate awareness"
That is not quite the phrase. It should be:
"Obliterate our awareness"
As far as we are concerned, it may as well be the obliteration of awareness, as once the 'our' part is removed, its all academic from there on.
This is the bogey in the closet, that we should be taking an interest in. How do we retain our awareness as a unified identity?
And what exactly do we mean by our? What is this our thing?
I see it as the life-force's gift that we are able to pull up a glob of awareness into a membrane'd package, which seems to look roughly the same one day after another.
But that ability to pull it together, is not our own power - it is the gift from life. Once the life-force is exhausted, we are left to ourselves to pull ourselves together - you see, it's all about stomach muscles.
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Koda's notes mentions the stomach from the books, too.
234 (In the beginning of the sorcerer's explanation.) The gaze is placed on the right eye of the other person, and what that does is stop the internal dialogue, then the nagual takes over: thus the danger of that maneuver. The gaze on the right eye is not a stare, but rather a forceful grabbing that one does through the eye of the other person. One grabs something that is behind the eye. One has the actual physical sensation that one is holding something with the will. Something snaps forward from someplace below the stomach and that something has direction and can be focused on anything. It works only when the warrior has learned to focus his will. The secret is in the left eye. As a warrior progresses on the path of knowledge his left eye can grasp anything.
"Obliterate awareness"
That is not quite the phrase. It should be:
"Obliterate our awareness"
As far as we are concerned, it may as well be the obliteration of awareness, as once the 'our' part is removed, its all academic from there on.
This is the bogey in the closet, that we should be taking an interest in. How do we retain our awareness as a unified identity?
And what exactly do we mean by our? What is this our thing?
I see it as the life-force's gift that we are able to pull up a glob of awareness into a membrane'd package, which seems to look roughly the same one day after another.
But that ability to pull it together, is not our own power - it is the gift from life. Once the life-force is exhausted, we are left to ourselves to pull ourselves together - you see, it's all about stomach muscles.
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One of the other questions I have on this is, as michael mentioned he made a good point on 'our awareness.' I dont believe that we have an 'our awareness' until we will it to be so. Like many folks walk around like mindless bots, thinking they have awareness which is theirs, but really what it is, is its all maya, a superficial conglomeration of belief systems of others, or societal beleif systems which hooked into the first attn, and formulate all they see. So all they do is really, react to all they see, iow, they are asleep to the world around them. Thus their is no solitary, singular awareness of their own.
For those who are waking up to possibilities beyond the CR, beyond the first attention, beyond their physical body, its a different story. They have better shots at having something called 'my awareness,' which isnt connected to the confines of the whole, the collective. Many folks are still glued into the collective, cause they're still bound to the 'human form' which keeps them glued to the collective. They're not free of it, not having their own awareness.
To get the 'gift' as michael calls it, or the eagles gift, my thots on this is, as it says, we all have some entitlement, or ability might be better said, to have this gift. However, there are clues to it, like being impeccable. You gotta be impeccable because this is what opens the doorway to create your own opening. Its the only way to lose self importance is by being impeccable, at least, as often as one can do it. Then, have a better shot at the 'gift.'
So back to it, I wonder, can the 'gift' be obtained before death, actual, physical? If I look into quantum theory, I believe it can, or at least be 'seen' in advance, because quantum theory and time is tricky, all of the possibilities are going on at once, so we shift our train tracks into the direction of the way, say slipping past the eagle, we are there already somewhere. But now, its just a matter of us in the here and now following the right route which leads us there.
I beleive all beings have this same ability; however, if they're on a track of denial of death, like in a belief system which has already guaranteed them eternal life, its gonna take a huge amount of energy for them to make it 'so,' and not be obliterated, tossed back in the recycling bin. And not that its about sin or not sin, but it is about being impeccable that gets one passed the eagle. I think, myself, it say, is not impeccable to be a religious bigot, and spread fear to others and cause more fear. This may not be viewed as impeccable, cause this can affect others on their own path. It can also keep them ignorant. They never meditated, they didnt go within, they took the physical body and ghost in the machine for all there was, but didnt quite get the work involved in working with the light to really get across the way. They didnt live their lives like a warrior should.
Just some thoughts on it, but quantumly, we've done it somewhere, already darted past the bird. Its just a matter of being on the actual road that will lead us there and not astray along the way.
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from 3:35 here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmu6dP3-VCs
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from 3:35 here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmu6dP3-VCs
I haven't seen the Kingdom of Heaven and therefore didn't fully appreciate the import of his comments, out of context. It did inspire me to get a hold of KoH, though. Looks interesting, and David Thewlis always is worth watching.
'Are you not going to certain death?'
'Death is always certain.'
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Re-reading this thread: it was a good discussion.
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I haven't seen the Kingdom of Heaven and therefore didn't fully appreciate the import of his comments, out of context. It did inspire me to get a hold of KoH, though. Looks interesting, and David Thewlis always is worth watching.
'Are you not going to certain death?'
'Death is always certain.'
or:
You go to certain death!
All death is certain.
;)
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:)
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I am left divided
to this discussion
as i witness the conglomerate of unified approach
of
individually applied direction of union of whole
timeless death s
merging awareness to provide the advance unified
within the singular vessel
haunted by those elements of my
ancestral knowledge
to appease and forefill that potential
are eagles all the same dreamers of lines
when they place their awareness upon the dream ?
i mean to say
some things are pressing
so do you feel its an advance of sorts in
bundle of truth ?
click clack
one foot follows another
how is it i remember myself and purpose
and yet this i is not what i would have known
within this one and final
applied death of this "one" life s memories
so i ask "who" is this death ?
and "who" am i within this death ?
and what is "time" to me
i know it sounds unreasonable like scattered pieces of a jigsaw
which sometimes pulls all together
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I saw the "kingdom of heaven" and it left me in awe
and then frightened the shit out of me
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A mind in the face of big D:
victim
customer
spectator
main character
traveller
or gone with the avalanche?
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heart key in lock
embark the stair s
how it came
and what came after
what witness ?
ascending
descending
click clack
to where ?
yet how the avalanche hung
and haunted
each in the position
customer victim etc etc
traveller a
appears on the road
and the road greeted him / her as such
avalanche hung around now
avalanche makes fire on road
warmth from traveller
for travellers
still traveller exists
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I saw the "kingdom of heaven" and it left me in awe
and then frightened the shit out of me
What's so scary about it?
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I saw the "kingdom of heaven" and it left me in awe
and then frightened the shit out of me
As they sing in one song:
It is a long way to heaven - and it is an equal a long way back home.
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What's so scary about it?
that s a good and hard question
being filled with light realizing the beauty which is present
yet ordinarily unrealized
being filled with "everything"
and then realizing that that everything is a part of your own awareness
connected
watching that light move within everything
and everything become of that light
then the fright became from wondering if i would ever
be able to function again normally
as in not connected and moving everything as i moved with the entire awareness
and that still holds to some degree everyday
aligning with power
yet power that is not entirely ours to begin
that everything is as an illusion
and that the illusion is equally valid and real / impressionable
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the responsibility
and the hu-man-ness left in charge .
entirely the humanness having shit itself in the face of losing any rational and having no precedence
of any such
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are you referring to the ineffable, runningstream?
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that everything is as an illusion
and that the illusion is equally valid and real / impressionable
Well please, Stick a needle in your Eye and tell us what experience you have of that illusion.
then the fright became from wondering if i would ever
be able to function again normally
as in not connected and moving everything as i moved with the entire awareness
and that still holds to some degree everyday
aligning with power
yet power that is not entirely ours to begin
Power for the Toltec warrior is - Personal Power. "Our Power" is not given from beyond. Personal Power is what Counts on a spirtual path
One can gain that Personal Power through several ways, but the basic way is to: Clean, Heal and Strenghten our Tonal.
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Michael , i understand your question from the perspective i believe you are asking ,
and that ineffable then as you say is so effable its not funny.
Jahn ,
when i read your statements , it leads me to to see
what has been written about sorcerers throughout the bible ,
in the face of "god" no magic trick would stand up from any sorcerer.
from what i have understood silence is the main trick of sorcerers in toltec terms to arrive at the ineffable
yet i also understand we can be led by the water itself which is very much alive
and that is progressive
when we look at those stars we see stars
yet when we look here we see something different
the symbolic journey and the characters exist here "wholy"
and some travellers are existing here in form journeying again throughout that immediate perception
of the stars manifest on earth
the mountain of lights can be reached upon the water as that journey
it is no wonder the christians buddhists muslims etc reach extreme breaking points
where at turns in history new perspectives are arrived at as superior to another
and supercede them
what would be of more value would be a stage of understanding and not tampering trifly
i can completely understand why the conquistadors would have found the toltec distasteful
and separatist in their view
having encountered one eyed "lead" based upon present faiths
taken for granted
poke myself in the eye ?
the value of "truth "
as the path is monumental
and that truth guided by faith
that alignment "not strategic "
open eyed and following the "alpha and omega" path as
"sophia " untainted archetype existing with each one as silences ears
and the light as the way "truth" personified
when jesus said who will follow his father should pack up and begin walking even from their family
was a strong sentiment i could understand now
being led that way
i cannot speak for toltec or christian as i am neither or both
i can only describe or try
from what i can gather myself in relation to that
BTW , under the circumstances here i dreamed last night i went
to see a "toltec" statue to gauge its "energy or power or memory of power"
it had its arms crossed
and outside lowly lit
as far as i can see the toltecs are embodiments of energetic structure themselves
and like reincarnated archetypes
of another side to a human
the collection of archetypes existing through carrying the seed to another generation
through embodying the stories as myths
as is the christian faith also an attempt at existing further the formula worked out
to give a stable base to existence for future generations
just like this thats the reason i believe a working relationship better to be arrived at through introspection
and balanced centre point discussions
to find parallels and working models of universal truth s
for universal growth based upon working truths even laws
laws being proven models
one thing about toltecs i found is working for the loss of self importance
yet a path that is carved around power
not that its not imprinted in every being in some stage
it just seems a strange inconsistency to have been embedded into that path
only to be later dropped
as with so much of it
it seems to me to represent a pantomime
of pointing to truth s through an active role play
yet i found carlos castanedas attempts to have been lost to so many
i am just not so sure about where a lot are pointing
sure im rambling
but i have a lot to get out :)
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I might be getting you wrong here.
Re: death
Do you focus more on the 'understanding'and 'perceiving' aspects of the journey of life rather than taking it literally, i.e. re-shaping oneself with the aim of maintaining awareness beyond death?
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I might be getting you wrong here.
Re: death
Do you focus more on the 'understanding'and 'perceiving' aspects of the journey of life rather than taking it literally, i.e. re-shaping oneself with the aim of maintaining awareness beyond death?
I have found no reason to do that "re:death" although i crossed some gates of dreaming
"also unsure of that s validity"
crossed four gates in one dream quite beyond my own waking volition just through the suggestion planted
lucidly
about a week or few days after my "god/jesus " experience
subsequently
im open to that idea
yet myself have found no real reason of my own as yet
i can say the thought seed is in there
its more about heart
company and sitting right
if a mirror could be created to that "heart"
and feeling right prevailed then i could see no reason why not
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Jahn ,
when i read your statements , it leads me to to see
what has been written about sorcerers throughout the bible ,
in the face of "god" no magic trick would stand up from any sorcerer.
from what i have understood silence is the main trick of sorcerers in toltec terms to arrive at the ineffable
yet i also understand we can be led by the water itself which is very much alive
and that is progressive
when we look at those stars we see stars
yet when we look here we see something different
the symbolic journey and the characters exist here "wholy"
and some travellers are existing here in form journeying again throughout that immediate perception
of the stars manifest on earth
The Toltec tradition is in a constant change of ongoing evolution propelled by the stars.
Castaneda provided some tools that were basic, such as stalking (our behaviour) and dreaming, and Don Juan through Carlos gave us a vocabulary. However, Castanedas Nagual teachers were all of the old school, honed during the darkest era of man. Theun Mares is much the same (well was) but Mares was far more structured in his teachings than Castaneda.
Don Miguel Ruiz and his group provides a much more lighter (and somewhat more simple) path within the Toltec tradition than Castaneda and Mares.
However, many Toltec naguals of today has not published books or do not have followers, but instead work in society through everyday life. Still connected through the ether with the ancient, original Toltec tradition.
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wow i just got done rereading this whole thread. the challenge to retain awareness after death. a lot of hope on this thread that we can. ultimately we wont know if successful if hit the door, but over time ive realised little me probably wont retain awareness as much, as my double will. ive kind of got the gist of this in my encounters with the double. if he were a computer, i am downloading knowledge, trying to convert all that to wisdom, and other things to see if can slip past the eagle. ive come to grips this would be the way - the higher goes, the little and lower, aint going. what that will make of me, will be very different.
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if he were a computer, i am downloading knowledge, trying to convert all that to wisdom, and other things to see if can slip past the eagle.
I know most people care little for this, and when they do it's lip service. But if you are interested, the whole thing revolves around how you transfer your identity to the double. Not an easy thing to do, let alone comprehend what that means.
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wow i just got done rereading this whole thread. the challenge to retain awareness after death. a lot of hope on this thread that we can. ultimately we wont know if successful if hit the door, but over time ive realised little me probably wont retain awareness as much, as my double will. ive kind of got the gist of this in my encounters with the double. if he were a computer, i am downloading knowledge, trying to convert all that to wisdom, and other things to see if can slip past the eagle. ive come to grips this would be the way - the higher goes, the little and lower, aint going. what that will make of me, will be very different.
There are (at least) two very different ways of looking at the idea of conjoining with the double. The first way is the idea that we "download" the double into the mortal self so as to experience the infinite.
The second way is that we actually UPLOAD our awareness into the double so as to "preserve" the mortal source beyond organic life. Since the double is technically inorganic, we transcend from organic beings to inorganic. I realize that could spur a lot of controversy among the strictest of Toltec practitioners who have the idea that "inorganic beings" are somehow to be avoided... and yet, when you really think about it, EVERYTHING is inorganic at its molecular/atomic structure.
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There are (at least) two very different ways of looking at the idea of conjoining with the double. The first way is the idea that we "download" the double into the mortal self so as to experience the infinite.
The second way is that we actually UPLOAD our awareness into the double so as to "preserve" the mortal source beyond organic life. Since the double is technically inorganic, we transcend from organic beings to inorganic. I realize that could spur a lot of controversy among the strictest of Toltec practitioners who have the idea that "inorganic beings" are somehow to be avoided... and yet, when you really think about it, EVERYTHING is inorganic at its molecular/atomic structure.
What an excellent explanation, Della. The former seems more achievable. On the second, I know it will sound peculiar, but I find myself wondering, why would my double want to be me? Then again, I did spend these years in this life - I suppose it would be a waste were it not to be transferred. ~Assuming I would accomplish either.
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What an excellent explanation, Della. The former seems more achievable. On the second, I know it will sound peculiar, but I find myself wondering, why would my double want to be me?
Well, simply because the Double is You.
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There are (at least) two very different ways of looking at the idea of conjoining with the double. The first way is the idea that we "download" the double into the mortal self so as to experience the infinite.
The second way is that we actually UPLOAD our awareness into the double so as to "preserve" the mortal source beyond organic life. Since the double is technically inorganic, we transcend from organic beings to inorganic. I realize that could spur a lot of controversy among the strictest of Toltec practitioners who have the idea that "inorganic beings" are somehow to be avoided... and yet, when you really think about it, EVERYTHING is inorganic at its molecular/atomic structure.
Hi Quantum Shaman
it is really nice to see you posting again here at Soma.
.~
jahn
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still, a very different you right? the double is still not the same as me thehuman.
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still, a very different you right? the double is still not the same as me thehuman.
"You" existed before your birth. "You" will exist after your death. Your Double has all the time been a part of You.
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well we still have to create the double. you cant bypass that step. i know we find out later the double created us, but still a step we must do. if we look at quantum theory, then this would make sense.
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well we still have to create the double. you cant bypass that step. i know we find out later the double created us, but still a step we must do. if we look at quantum theory, then this would make sense.
You cannot create the Double, only align to it. But that is another story.
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when don juan said the self dreams the double, i see that asthe initial point, creation. then we find, double is dreaming us. but still, without the self dreaming the double initially, i cant see alignment as you say.
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There is nothing in this world that a warrior cannot account for. You see, a warrior considers himself already dead, so there is nothing for him to lose. The worst has already happened to him, therefore he's clear and calm; judging him by his acts or by his words, one would never suspect that he has witnessed everything.
Tales of Power
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Well, simply because the Double is You.
Yes - I need to reformulate what I meant.
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There is nothing in this world that a warrior cannot account for. You see, a warrior considers himself already dead, so there is nothing for him to lose. The worst has already happened to him, therefore he's clear and calm; judging him by his acts or by his words, one would never suspect that he has witnessed everything.
Tales of Power
:)
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Yes - I need to reformulate what I meant.
There are (at least) two very different ways of looking at the idea of conjoining with the double. The first way is the idea that we "download" the double into the mortal self so as to experience the infinite.
The second way is that we actually UPLOAD our awareness into the double so as to "preserve" the mortal source beyond organic life. Since the double is technically inorganic, we transcend from organic beings to inorganic. I realize that could spur a lot of controversy among the strictest of Toltec practitioners who have the idea that "inorganic beings" are somehow to be avoided... and yet, when you really think about it, EVERYTHING is inorganic at its molecular/atomic structure.
In the case of uploading the mortal self to the double, I see that as easier to accomplish at the point of death, the actual transition of it, than during life. And perhaps preferable, depending on one's situation. When I said, why would the double want to be me, I'm wondering why I would want to bind the double to my earthly limitations, not to mention my personal ones. Seems that one of us needs to have a foot in the door of infinity.
But this is just my playful mind thinking aloud - I do not intend it literally. It's unfortunate that we "divided" the two, lower and higher, in our thinking. Heh, but if we hadn't done that, we wouldn't need to talk of a Path at all.
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i think that, to get back to original, certain aspects of me which may be irrelevant, which were suited to say me having a body, that may not go. i think however, the `observer` me, that which has borne witness to my life, that of course would, and that is what im hoping to retain, i suppose somehow this would merge with double. i have wondered however, if the double bears a witness, or we share the same one.
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I've often thought of the double as the Witness.
And it sometimes looks like this:
(http://images.fineartamerica.com/images-medium-large/weeping-angel-lisa-anne-riley.jpg)
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following the stars Jahn toltec traditions you say
actually now i am wondering if the transference of the double
was at a point in the sky transferred through time "portal"
and a side to side thing occurred
you know mirror in the sky
passing int the night like lovers
who wants to go to heaven ?
or was it just another dream / dreamer