Author Topic: Are you ready?  (Read 1167 times)

tangerine dream

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Re: Are you ready?
« Reply #30 on: June 17, 2009, 06:44:51 AM »
What about this:

Death may be the greatest of all human blessings.  ~Socrates

Agree or disagree?

As far as being the greatest teacher we could ever ask for,  You Bet!

And, on top of that, (one of) the only way(s) to Freedom.

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Re: Are you ready?
« Reply #31 on: June 17, 2009, 06:52:26 AM »
True. We still gotta deal with death if we're going to find that opening to freedom. I just want to be ready for it, prepared. Not cut before my prime and then recycled in the eagle beak bin, lol.

Id still like to ponder more why the Eagle wants our experiences so bad though. What would the Eagle gain from all those experiences?
"A warrior doesn't seek anything for his solace, nor can he possibly leave anything to chance. A warrior actually affects the outcome of events by the force of his awareness and his unbending intent." - don Juan

tangerine dream

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Re: Are you ready?
« Reply #32 on: June 17, 2009, 06:54:45 AM »
See another thing I wonder, are Death and the Double synonymous?

One thing I notice for me personally,  and I don't know if it's the same for everyone is that when I feel Death I definitely feel him to my left, around my left arm (almost rib area).  The other day when I was working on employing my double,  I felt her/him (it?)  on my right side, like attached to my right arm/shoulder, promenading.  

So that's one noticeable difference, at least for me.

Anyone else?
« Last Edit: June 17, 2009, 07:49:23 AM by Celesta »

Offline Quantum Shaman

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Re: Are you ready?
« Reply #33 on: June 17, 2009, 07:39:41 AM »
I didn't say "death is just a transition'  so I hope I am not one of the people you are speaking of.  My point was that I don't see any 'obliteration of awareness"  occurring. To me that is not possible.   Awareness IS, always. 

To me, awareness really isn't, "always".  Where were you before you were born?  Where are you when you are under anesthesia?  Where are you when you are in a coma?  This is simply an example I use when someone says something to the effect that death is a metamorphosis or a transition or a journey.  While all of those things MAY be true, we really have no evidence to support that, other than what we want-to-believe, and/or purely subjective experience.  That's why the work of the warrior is so important - we do the best we can while we're alive, hoping it will be enough.  Maybe it will, maybe it won't.  But I just don't feel I have the luxury of saying, "Awareness IS, always."  You may be right.  I'd be delighted if that's the case - seriously!  It just doesn't track with my own experience, but that's okay, too.


I'm not scared of Death.  I've met Death on a few ocasions and obviously lived to tell.   And also use death as an advisor and know there's nothing to be afraid of, so I am not basing my viewpoints on fear.  (Not saying I am ready to go right now, because sure there are a few things I'd still like to do...)   


It's just the way I see, Della.

Just how I see.



Hope you also know that anything I say here isn't personal.  I don't question how you *see*.  But at times I do question the conclusions we humans come to - including my own.  It's why I tend to push the envelope when I ask questions like, "What makes you think so?"  Sometimes when we really get down to examining our beliefs (particularly about death), we start to realize that so much of what we think or believe is just a cumulative result of stuff we've read or been told or whatever.  Example:  I used to "believe" at least to a small degree in the idea of "reincarnation" - but when I really got down to recapitulating WHY I believed it, it all came down to belief, faith and acceptance of doctrine.  IOW, it had nothing to do w/ my own experience or even my own *seeing*. 

When I became a seer, I found I could no longer be comforted by what I want-to-believe.  The upside, of course, is that when we realize just HOW alone we are on this path is when we (hopefully) take responsibility for our own evolution, our own survival beyond the eagle.  What I have *seen* is that if we don't do that, then our awareness will be forfeit when we die. 

That's just how I see it.  Might be an interesting comparison of inventories to look at how and why each of us has come to such different conclusions.  I'd be open to that discussion if you are.  :)
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tangerine dream

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Re: Are you ready?
« Reply #34 on: June 17, 2009, 07:47:48 AM »
To me, awareness really isn't, "always".  Where were you before you were born?  Where are you when you are under anesthesia?  Where are you when you are in a coma? 

Before I was born, there was awareness, and there will still be awareness after I die.  Awareness does not depend on me, my life, death or consciousness.  The Ocean is vast and forever.


I think we'll have to agree to disagree here.   :)
« Last Edit: June 17, 2009, 07:50:21 AM by Celesta »

Offline Quantum Shaman

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Re: Are you ready?
« Reply #35 on: June 17, 2009, 07:49:21 AM »
True. We still gotta deal with death if we're going to find that opening to freedom. I just want to be ready for it, prepared. Not cut before my prime and then recycled in the eagle beak bin, lol.

Id still like to ponder more why the Eagle wants our experiences so bad though. What would the Eagle gain from all those experiences?

Hey, Ellen...

I'm not sure the eagle "wants" anything at all.  To me, it's entirely impersonal, and the eagle isn't even particularly "sentient."  It's simply the eagle's function to devour awareness, just as a black hole's function is to devour matter/light/time.  In fact, that's probably a pretty good analogy - the eagle and a black hole.  To the black hole, it isn't personal - the black hole doesn't particularly want to suck in everything in its path.  It's just what it does - its sole function.

So in that regard, I *see* the eagle as a recycling bin.  It's job is to recycle awareness and redistribute it back into circulation for re-use.  Every once in awhile, I see a Coke can rolling down the side of the road.  Makes me think of the warrior who slipped past the recycling bin.

Heh.
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Offline Quantum Shaman

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Re: Are you ready?
« Reply #36 on: June 17, 2009, 07:54:57 AM »
Before I was born, there was awareness, and there will still be awareness after I die.  The Ocean is vast and forever.


I think we'll have to agree to disagree here.   :)

Okay - we can agree to disagree.  I'm fine with that.  However, I do think that it tends to terminate all discussion and promotes a return to comfort zones.  *shrugs*  That, too, is okay. 

And yet...

You say there was awareness before you were born and there will be awareness after you die.  To me, that's a fascinating statement, and opens a world of awesome possibility.  I'd love to hear more about it, but only if you're comfortable sharing it.  For myself, I have no sense of awareness before I was born, and no evidence that there will be awareness after I die.

I'll leave it up to you.  If you really want me to drop it, consider it dropped.  Just trying to push the envelope a bit.
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tangerine dream

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Re: Are you ready?
« Reply #37 on: June 17, 2009, 08:00:56 AM »
Maybe Della, we are getting mixed up on the term "awareness".  I just googled it and found the standard definition. 

"Awareness is a term referring to the ability to perceive, to feel, or to be conscious of events, objects or patterns, which does not necessarily imply understanding. In biological psychology, awareness comprises a human's or an animal's perception and cognitive reaction to a condition or event"

Not what I am speaking of at all when I say "awareness IS (always)".   Here's what I mean

From the Active Side of Infinity:

"You already know," he began, "that there exists in the universe
a perenial force, which the sorcerers of ancient Mexico called the
dark sea of awareness. While they were at the maximum of their perceiving powers, they saw something that made them shake in their pantaloonies, if they were wearing any. They saw that the dark sea of awareness is responsible not only for the awareness of organisms, but also for the awareness of entities that don't have an organism."


"Death's hidden option is exclusively for sorcerers. They are the only ones who have, to my knowledge, read the fine print. For them, the option is pertinent and functional. For average human beings, death means the termination of their awareness, the end of their organisms. For the
inorganic beings, death means the same: the end of their awareness.
In both cases, the impact of death is the act of being sucked into the
dark sea of awareness. Their individual awareness, loaded with their life experiences, breaks its boundaries, and awareness as energy spills out into the dark sea of awareness."


As always don Juan explains perfectly!




tangerine dream

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Re: Are you ready?
« Reply #38 on: June 17, 2009, 08:07:40 AM »
Della,  I put the rest of the piece here:
http://restlesssoma.com.au/soma/index.php?topic=7001.0

Offline Quantum Shaman

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Re: Are you ready?
« Reply #39 on: June 17, 2009, 08:28:05 AM »
Maybe Della, we are getting mixed up on the term "awareness".  I just googled it and found the standard definition. 

"Awareness is a term referring to the ability to perceive, to feel, or to be conscious of events, objects or patterns, which does not necessarily imply understanding. In biological psychology, awareness comprises a human's or an animal's perception and cognitive reaction to a condition or event"

Not what I am speaking of at all when I say "awareness IS (always)".   Here's what I mean

From the Active Side of Infinity:

"You already know," he began, "that there exists in the universe
a perenial force, which the sorcerers of ancient Mexico called the
dark sea of awareness. While they were at the maximum of their perceiving powers, they saw something that made them shake in their pantaloonies, if they were wearing any. They saw that the dark sea of awareness is responsible not only for the awareness of organisms, but also for the awareness of entities that don't have an organism."


"Death's hidden option is exclusively for sorcerers. They are the only ones who have, to my knowledge, read the fine print. For them, the option is pertinent and functional. For average human beings, death means the termination of their awareness, the end of their organisms. For the
inorganic beings, death means the same: the end of their awareness.
In both cases, the impact of death is the act of being sucked into the
dark sea of awareness. Their individual awareness, loaded with their life experiences, breaks its boundaries, and awareness as energy spills out into the dark sea of awareness."


As always don Juan explains perfectly!

Lori - thanks so much for this expansion!  It does indeed explain where/why we are talking apples & oranges.  LOL.  I am essentially in completely agreement w/ the segment you posted re don Juan's explanation of awareness, the dark sea of awareness, etc. 

When DJM talks about the sorcerer's awareness continuing beyond the dark sea, that's also what I'm referring to - the uniqueness of "self", for lack of a better word.  When I have *seen* the dark sea of awareness (twice), it was essentially a melting pot of all awareness - no unique I-Am awareness, just what would amount to the energy which is consciousness, and available for distribution to any/all living things.  Impersonal.  Rather like the old biblical notion of "god", when he had to call himself into being by saying I-Am - rising out of that dark sea to become an I-am as opposed to just the raw material of consciousness.

So, in that regard, sure, I would agree that awareness existed before I was born and will continue after I die.  And yet, I can also get to what DJM is saying:

Quote
"For a sorcerer, death is a unifiying factor. Instead of disintegrating the organism, as is ordinarily the case, death unifies it."
"How can death unify anything?" I protested.

"Death for a sorcerer," he said, "terminates the reign of individual moods in the body. The old sorcerers believed it was the dominion of the different parts of the body that ruled the moods and the actions of the total body; parts that become dysfunctional drag the rest of the body to chaos, such as, for instance, when you yourself get sick from eating junk. In that case, the mood of your stomach affects everything else. Death eradicates the dominion of those individual parts. It unifies their awareness into one single unit."

Another way to put it:  death for a sorcerer results in achieving the totality of oneself - the unification of all previously fragmented aspects into a single assemblage point.

And still another way of looking at it is that the sorcerer moves the sum total of his awareness from his "body" into his double - and the double itself is the energetic vessel of cohesion which is, also, the unifying factor.

Again - THANK YOU! - for taking this that one step further.  I now feel I know where you're coming from and hope this clarifies my position as well.

:)



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Offline Michael

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Re: Are you ready?
« Reply #40 on: June 17, 2009, 04:25:01 PM »
"Obliterate awareness"

That is not quite the phrase. It should be:
"Obliterate our awareness"

As far as we are concerned, it may as well be the obliteration of awareness, as once the 'our' part is removed, its all academic from there on.

This is the bogey in the closet, that we should be taking an interest in. How do we retain our awareness as a unified identity?

And what exactly do we mean by our? What is this our thing?

I see it as the life-force's gift that we are able to pull up a glob of awareness into a membrane'd package, which seems to look roughly the same one day after another.

But that ability to pull it together, is not our own power - it is the gift from life. Once the life-force is exhausted, we are left to ourselves to pull ourselves together - you see, it's all about stomach muscles.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2009, 04:32:20 PM by Michael »

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Re: Are you ready?
« Reply #41 on: June 18, 2009, 04:06:11 AM »
Koda's notes mentions the stomach from the books, too.

Quote
234 (In the beginning of the sorcerer's explanation.) The gaze is placed on the right eye of the other person, and what that does is stop the internal dialogue, then the nagual takes over: thus the danger of that maneuver. The gaze on the right eye is not a stare, but rather a forceful grabbing that one does through the eye of the other person. One grabs something that is behind the eye. One has the actual physical sensation that one is holding something with the will. Something snaps forward from someplace below the stomach and that something has direction and can be focused on anything. It works only when the warrior has learned to focus his will. The secret is in the left eye. As a warrior progresses on the path of knowledge his left eye can grasp anything.


"Obliterate awareness"

That is not quite the phrase. It should be:
"Obliterate our awareness"

As far as we are concerned, it may as well be the obliteration of awareness, as once the 'our' part is removed, its all academic from there on.

This is the bogey in the closet, that we should be taking an interest in. How do we retain our awareness as a unified identity?

And what exactly do we mean by our? What is this our thing?

I see it as the life-force's gift that we are able to pull up a glob of awareness into a membrane'd package, which seems to look roughly the same one day after another.

But that ability to pull it together, is not our own power - it is the gift from life. Once the life-force is exhausted, we are left to ourselves to pull ourselves together - you see, it's all about stomach muscles.
"A warrior doesn't seek anything for his solace, nor can he possibly leave anything to chance. A warrior actually affects the outcome of events by the force of his awareness and his unbending intent." - don Juan

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Re: Are you ready?
« Reply #42 on: June 18, 2009, 04:19:48 AM »
One of the other questions I have on this is, as michael mentioned he made a good point on 'our awareness.' I dont believe that we have an 'our awareness' until we will it to be so. Like many folks walk around like mindless bots, thinking they have awareness which is theirs, but really what it is, is its all maya, a superficial conglomeration of belief systems of others, or societal beleif systems which hooked into the first attn, and formulate all they see. So all they do is really, react to all they see, iow, they are asleep to the world around them. Thus their is no solitary, singular awareness of their own.

For those who are waking up to possibilities beyond the CR, beyond the first attention, beyond their physical body, its a different story. They have better shots at having something called 'my awareness,' which isnt connected to the confines of the whole, the collective. Many folks are still glued into the collective, cause they're still bound to the 'human form' which keeps them glued to the collective. They're not free of it, not having their own awareness.

To get the 'gift' as michael calls it, or the eagles gift, my thots on this is, as it says, we all have some entitlement, or ability might be better said, to have this gift. However, there are clues to it, like being impeccable. You gotta be impeccable because this is what opens the doorway to create your own opening. Its the only way to lose self importance is by being impeccable, at least, as often as one can do it. Then, have a better shot at the 'gift.'

So back to it, I wonder, can the 'gift' be obtained before death, actual, physical? If I look into quantum theory, I believe it can, or at least be 'seen' in advance, because quantum theory and time is tricky, all of the possibilities are going on at once, so we shift our train tracks into the direction of the way, say slipping past the eagle, we are there already somewhere. But now, its just a matter of us in the here and now following the right route which leads us there.

I beleive all beings have this same ability; however, if they're on a track of denial of death, like in a belief system which has already guaranteed them eternal life, its gonna take a huge amount of energy for them to make it 'so,' and not be obliterated, tossed back in the recycling bin. And not that its about sin or not sin, but it is about being impeccable that gets one passed the eagle. I think, myself, it say, is not impeccable to be a religious bigot, and spread fear to others and cause more fear. This may not be viewed as impeccable, cause this can affect others on their own path. It can also keep them ignorant. They never meditated, they didnt go within, they took the physical body and ghost in the machine for all there was, but didnt quite get the work involved in working with the light to really get across the way. They didnt live their lives like a warrior should.

Just some thoughts on it, but quantumly, we've done it somewhere, already darted past the bird. Its just a matter of being on the actual road that will lead us there and not astray along the way.
"A warrior doesn't seek anything for his solace, nor can he possibly leave anything to chance. A warrior actually affects the outcome of events by the force of his awareness and his unbending intent." - don Juan

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Re: Are you ready?
« Reply #43 on: March 27, 2014, 10:58:52 PM »

Offline Nichi

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Re: Are you ready?
« Reply #44 on: March 28, 2014, 04:14:08 AM »
from 3:35 here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmu6dP3-VCs

I haven't seen the Kingdom of Heaven and therefore didn't fully appreciate the import of his comments, out of context. It did inspire me to get a hold of KoH, though. Looks interesting, and David Thewlis always is worth watching.

'Are you not going to certain death?'
'Death is always certain.'
Not here, not there, but everywhere - always right before your eyes.
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