Author Topic: Who's Offended  (Read 918 times)

Offline Michael

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Who's Offended
« on: July 22, 2006, 01:06:31 AM »
MAKE NO MISTAKE!
Stalkers have a very simple rule - if you get offended, you are in the wrong.

We are allowed to get upset, annoyed, frustrated - these are natural human reactions, and they are something we constantly seek to reduce by looking at the source of these emotions - do they have antecedent causes in our past.  But if we are offended or insulted by someone else, feel slighted, miffed, etc, then there is self-importance.  How do we tell the difference?

1. The natural part is short lived - felt as a psychic slap, or bump... we don’t like it.  We like it when someone praises us - felt as a lift. 
2. The insult is long lived, we mull over it again and again, we never forget it, we plan revenge, we get depressed, we get angry, we play it over and over in our minds, in our words.  Then we justify, justify, justify - concoct elaborate rationales to show how we are in the right, but always underneath we seethe with injured pride.  Then, in the worst cases we paint our assailant with a perfect picture of ourselves - funny how accurate we get it.  Inside we really do know exactly what we are doing, just that we project this onto the other.  Thank god these are the worst cases, pretty close to madness, though I see a lot of it in politics these days.

If you are stewing, can’t laugh at yourself - from a stalker’s view, you are wrong.  And worse, only more pain can cure you, with understanding of course.

Now the other person may well have shovelled you a load of crap, but that doesn’t matter - if you got your nose out of joint, then you are wrong, not them. 

The correct approach goes like this - first pain, then laugh at your silliness, then consider a response.  You see you need to know how to take offence, how to respond - reaction is not response, it is defence and attack.  Response is creative, it chooses it’s own timing, it enjoys the game.

Self-importance hates to be criticised, it bristles with indignation at the slightest slight.  Self-importance hates snobs, hates elites, hates anyone who thinks their better than it.  Self-importance hates anyone who sets themselves up as being above others, above it, and then rushes to pull them down - bring them down to its level (in fact, don’t tell anyone, but pushes them down beneath it, cause self-importance has to be IMPORTANT).

I’m just trying to flesh this out so we can be perfectly clear, that self-importance hates being underneath.  There is no escape, this attitude is wrong.  Point blank, no argument - it is a mortal sin, and must always be seen as such.

Now by contrast, dignity sees itself as noble, elevated, keeps it’s head up.  When challenged, dignity may feel hurt, annoyed, and it may well seek to identify error in its attacker, but it doesn’t suffer from wounded pride, and thus doesn’t seek to belittle the other - rather it asks that the other also put aside it’s vindictiveness and lift it’s own head, it wants to pull the other up, not down.  Of course dignity is allowed to yell at an undisciplined dog to stop it, bring it into line - everyone needs to know dog language.

I may be wrong, but I don’t think dignity has any more place in a Toltec stalker than self-importance.  A stalker seeks the truth, and has no time for pride, justified or unjustified.  A stalker leans slightly forward with an ever so slight mischievous grin, a keen terrifying eye and hands loose but always ready.  A stalker plays friendly, plays dignified, plays offended, plays the human harp but never loses its sight from the truth!
« Last Edit: July 22, 2006, 02:32:50 AM by Michael »

SoulFire

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Re: Who's Offended
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2006, 01:29:56 AM »
This is one of my faves M.
Thanks for bringing it.
 8)


nichi

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Re: Who's Offended
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2006, 01:46:25 AM »
The classic!!

niamhspark

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Re: Who's Offended
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2006, 03:58:12 PM »
While I understand the premise of this, still though, the thing I don't care for much is the blame issue. Offendedness is treated like a sin. The other person who does the 'offending' or whatnot, is not responsible. In some cases I can see this, but in every case though? The thing I don't like about this, is it doesn't leave much wiggle room. It's becoming an absolute in Toltec, and I'm not big on absolutes.

SoulFire

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Re: Who's Offended
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2006, 04:06:19 PM »
While I understand the premise of this, still though, the thing I don't care for much is the blame issue. Offendedness is treated like a sin. The other person who does the 'offending' or whatnot, is not responsible. In some cases I can see this, but in every case though? The thing I don't like about this, is it doesn't leave much wiggle room. It's becoming an absolute in Toltec, and I'm not big on absolutes.

That's right N.  YOU are responsible.  That is the point.  You take responsibility for you self, your emotions, your actions and re-actions.  That is where you get your power. 
That's where the power is.

niamhspark

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Re: Who's Offended
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2006, 04:16:36 PM »
While I understand the premise of this, still though, the thing I don't care for much is the blame issue. Offendedness is treated like a sin. The other person who does the 'offending' or whatnot, is not responsible. In some cases I can see this, but in every case though? The thing I don't like about this, is it doesn't leave much wiggle room. It's becoming an absolute in Toltec, and I'm not big on absolutes.

That's right N.  YOU are responsible.  That is the point.  You take responsibility for you self, your emotions, your actions and re-actions.  That is where you get your power. 
That's where the power is.


But what about the offender's responsibility, if they are an actual offender?

SoulFire

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Re: Who's Offended
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2006, 04:34:43 PM »
You know I think I see the source of your discomfort with this.
What M states as a codes, you see as blaming and sin.
If we could strip away these words, these judgements and see the energetic loop, could we see that it is a matter of perception and holding onto our own personal power and energy.  If I want to I can choose to give my power away to someone else, (the 'offender') or I can choose to keep my own power, own my reactions and keep hold of the energy that would otherwise be trapped in the blaming.

« Last Edit: July 22, 2006, 04:44:35 PM by SoulFire »

niamhspark

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Re: Who's Offended
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2006, 04:57:29 PM »
Well, its like the analogy used many times over. Person walks up and hits them in the face. The person who was hit, and got the broken nose is upset. To myself, it doesn't make sense to say they're at fault for being upset about being hit. There is an offender (the one who hit), but telling the other, if they're upset about it, that's their fault, seems wrong to me.

This is why I question the absolutes in this matter.

nichi

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Re: Who's Offended
« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2006, 06:11:34 PM »
Maybe it goes to this, and there are fine lines to sort out:

Feeling Offended

   "A warrior could be injured but not offended," he said.  "For a
warrior there is nothing offensive about the acts of his fellow men
as long as he himself is acting within the proper mood....." ~DJ

An injury has to be addressed, in a variety of ways, the most crucial way, of course, being first aid. (The possibilities for redress are limited, really.)
But to be offended about it means we have taken the energy of it into ourselves.  If someone slams their car into mine, I hope that they'll take financial responsibility for the repair, but whenever I get irate about a thing, I always pay for all of it and more. I'm not saying this is a law of the universe, but as soon as I stepped on the path, I was at the mercy of spirit's sense of humor.   8)


I remember spending years trying to exact justice for (real) wrongs done to me. "Wrongs" may have been done, but then I was the one who made the choice to spend years in the hallways seeking my redress. I was the one who took it inside and wouldn't let it go. Then I created a whole new avenue of deeds for which there were consequences. In the end, I came to realize, all of it was my choice, on some level.
(And when I let it go, heheh, finally, "justice" was done, independent of my grousings to the cosmos!)


Another aspect of this is sensitivity. Some are simply more sensitive than others to the dark side of other humans. Some can sense "ill intent" directed their way more easily than others. But that has to be diverted off, energetically, pronto. It takes practice. If you've been an empathic child, you know this. If you have a history of abuse, you know this. The redirect requires learning how to climb out of one's own vulnerability, and to quickly assess what really wasn't intended as something mean, or hateful. To quickly ward off what will not be allowed to enter permanently. To quickly transmute and transform as it washes through our being. To become warriors!

It's a fine art, there's no doubt about it. Especially if there's real violence. That guy who might come up and hit us in the face... whoa there is a challenge for sure. We are injured, in ways deeper than contusions. For letting that violence inside is damaging to the psyche for years and years and years.  After the sting of the watery eyes, we must learn how to push that out of our solar plexus, and get rid of it. The faster the better. 

To be offended about it... is a concession that there was some truth in whatever the aggressor has wrought.  In order to be offended about it, one has to have let the act go through a sieve of self-worth, or lack of it, as it were.

(Ever watch it with cats? I watch it here at my mother's house. When my step-father is irate and his voice raises, or his motions are jerky along with his frustration, the cats here vamoose. The elder cat, george, most definitely takes s-f's actions personally! His feelings are hurt, you can see it all over his face.  Luckily, their memory works differently than ours.  Their capacity to "hold on" is very different.)

~~Ps ... I haven't mastered all of this.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2006, 06:19:49 PM by nichi »

Offline Michael

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Re: Who's Offended
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2006, 08:05:33 PM »
N's point is excellent, and I'm glad she has raised it, because it is exactly the response that most people have to this principle. L and V's response is also very insightful. This discussion need to be had after such a dramatic statement as I have made at the start.

Perhaps N, you could follow through with further teasing out of the angle you see. Many who read this will not have the courage to challenge that remark of DJ's that the jaguar chasing CC may have been a 'bad' cat - that it is an 'achievement' to see no distinction between a rock falling on your head, and a human whose motives you know.

This is a most difficult issue, and it is facile to say, "Yes I believe in not getting offended", and then get miffed immediately some spiteful or arrogant person slaps us. We do need to know the cultural underpinnings of our spontaneous reactions - to recognise that we like to pomp about detachment until its us in the hot seat.

In fact, it would be good N, if you could make the case (as a follower of the spirit of martial arts) of how having the capacity to get offended is not a vulnerability that could be exploited by an opponent (like in the recent soccer World Cup - "I'm only human" the man said, and I'm sure the French understood that, at the cost of the Cup).

a discussion that has to be had...

m

Jahn

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Re: Who's Offended
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2006, 08:17:58 PM »
I may be wrong, but I don’t think dignity has any more place in a Toltec stalker than self-importance.  A stalker seeks the truth, and has no time for pride, justified or unjustified.  A stalker leans slightly forward with an ever so slight mischievous grin, a keen terrifying eye and hands loose but always ready.  A stalker plays friendly, plays dignified, plays offended, plays the human harp but never loses its sight from the truth!

No you're quite right about the fluid stance of the warrior. He has his roots in infinity, nothing matters especially much more than to be balanced, in the center and act with the power he has available. But there are steps on the way, when we have stopped being offended and have less and less re-action and more and more of enlightment then the phase of dignity may be more present.

The ruthlessness and knowingness in the clean warrior is quite bottomless and for a "normal" guy it would be labelled "unhuman" because that is what they are thaught - being afraid of the bottomless, ruthless, knowingness. That that is too far out, that is scary and not known. Therefore the whole all being warrior must cover up his actions with the folly, and meet his fellow mens where they are.

« Last Edit: August 19, 2006, 08:39:31 PM by Juan Miguel »

Jahn

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Re: Who's Offended
« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2006, 08:19:13 PM »
While I understand the premise of this, still though, the thing I don't care for much is the blame issue. Offendedness is treated like a sin. The other person who does the 'offending' or whatnot, is not responsible. In some cases I can see this, but in every case though? The thing I don't like about this, is it doesn't leave much wiggle room. It's becoming an absolute in Toltec, and I'm not big on absolutes.

That's right N.  YOU are responsible.  That is the point.  You take responsibility for you self, your emotions, your actions and re-actions.  That is where you get your power. 
That's where the power is.


But what about the offender's responsibility, if they are an actual offender?

The other is not you N. So why care about him/her?

Jahn

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Re: Who's Offended
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2006, 08:21:26 PM »
Person walks up and hits them in the face. The person who was hit, and got the broken nose is upset. To myself, it doesn't make sense to say they're at fault for being upset about being hit. There is an offender (the one who hit), but telling the other, if they're upset about it, that's their fault, seems wrong to me.

This is why I question the absolutes in this matter.

If someone walks up to me and hit me in the face or even broke my nose I would try to kill him. Maybe not so noble but yet a reasonable response. I know my street vein, I have actually been in fights that started unprovoked, so I did my best to beat up those guys then. I cannot run fast now so I will be left fighting for my life if someone hit me.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2006, 08:42:23 PM by Juan Miguel »

niamhspark

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Re: Who's Offended
« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2006, 03:00:05 AM »

Perhaps N, you could follow through with further teasing out of the angle you see. Many who read this will not have the courage to challenge that remark of DJ's that the jaguar chasing CC may have been a 'bad' cat - that it is an 'achievement' to see no distinction between a rock falling on your head, and a human whose motives you know.

This is a most difficult issue, and it is facile to say, "Yes I believe in not getting offended", and then get miffed immediately some spiteful or arrogant person slaps us. We do need to know the cultural underpinnings of our spontaneous reactions - to recognise that we like to pomp about detachment until its us in the hot seat.

In fact, it would be good N, if you could make the case (as a follower of the spirit of martial arts) of how having the capacity to get offended is not a vulnerability that could be exploited by an opponent (like in the recent soccer World Cup - "I'm only human" the man said, and I'm sure the French understood that, at the cost of the Cup).

a discussion that has to be had...

m

One of the things I'm seeing with toltec and various interps, is this statement by DJ being misused. Say you have two toltec folks who know this principle. Each one tells the other "You're offended, you're in the wrong." Being upset about something, frustrated, whatnot, "You're offended, that's your fault." So you have one asshole who likes to use this against people to disassociate himself from responsibility for their actions. I think the meaning is being screwed up. People are using offended meaning, like others hold up the "cast the first stone" to halt a christian.

The thing I think DJ was trying to get across with the offendedness issue, works like this:

The samurai is ordered to kill his enemy because he killed his master. He encounters his enemy, extends his sword. The enemy spits in the samurai's face. The samurai sheaths his sword and walks away. He doesn't kill him because this would've broken the code to not strike an enemy in anger. There is no perfect balance in such an act. So he was ordered to do one thing, but would've broken the code if he'd acted, which he couldn't do.

My opinion, when it's right, is the offendedness issue is like this. When you're offended, and you act on being offended, on this particular energy, there is no perfect balance. Offendedness, however, is being taken out of context. I've seen dumb butt who wrote the idiots guide on her website, using this against folks, if they're hurt, or husband's have cheated on them, whatever, they're upset, their fault. That is bullshit to me, and not what DJ meant by this statement, IMPO.

SoulFire

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Re: Who's Offended
« Reply #14 on: July 24, 2006, 07:44:09 AM »
Say you have two toltec folks who know this principle. Each one tells the other "You're offended, you're in the wrong."


But you see N,
the point is not to tell the other he is wrong.
The point is to listen to myself being offended and
learn, through stalking, something about myself.
I want to know WHY I am becoming offended.  So I stalk that
and in doing so get to know myself better.

I do not care, so don't bother telling the other guy he is wrong.
What I am concerned with is my own self.

It's not "If you are offended, you are wrong.  It's if I am offended, I am wrong"
See?
 :P
« Last Edit: July 24, 2006, 07:45:55 AM by SoulFire »

 

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