Author Topic: The second coming  (Read 1646 times)

Offline Taimyr

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Re: The second coming
« Reply #135 on: August 14, 2014, 04:56:40 AM »
I don't know what you mean by snags.

I haven't said that this life is not important in a spiritual sense. After all, everything is inside everything, and physical life is not separated from Spirit either. What humans do in everyday life, is a description, a useless construct. With spiritual direction there comes a new meaning to it I suppose.

It is not about any description, I asked if you are familiar with the Not Doing process that Toltecs sometimes use to get rid of snags that is an obstacle to the universal flow.

You are eager to pass on, but since you have a human body, you also have a mission to complete before you leave the earth.

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Re: The second coming
« Reply #136 on: August 14, 2014, 05:08:08 AM »
I don't know what you mean by snags.


A snag is something that holds you back on your path, like a skid or brake that prevent any smooth progress.

A typical snag can look like this:
I am not meant to be rich, to be rich and have a lot of money is not spiritual, and therefore nothing for me.

Such idea will definitely keep you out of the flow.

Another typical snag could be that one reduce one capabilities like  - I am not that type of person, I couldn't do that.

Then there are snags that are embedded in our opinions. We all like to identify our selves with our opinions (but the naked child hasn't any opinions).
Snag opinions might look like this:
All X are bad, and X people do bad things.
X people cannot handle freedom, and so on. That is typical mental snags that function as hurdles for the nagual to flow freely.



With spiritual direction there comes a new meaning to it I suppose.


The only spiritual direction that a Toltec warrior has, is to get rid of the curse from mankind.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2014, 05:11:13 AM by Jahn »

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Re: The second coming
« Reply #137 on: August 14, 2014, 05:09:58 AM »
Jahn, can you elaborate more on the curse of mankind? Are we really cursed?
"A warrior doesn't seek anything for his solace, nor can he possibly leave anything to chance. A warrior actually affects the outcome of events by the force of his awareness and his unbending intent." - don Juan

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Re: The second coming
« Reply #138 on: August 14, 2014, 05:16:15 AM »
Jahn, can you elaborate more on the curse of mankind? Are we really cursed?

Well, what do you think?

Native warriors and Indians in America says for instance, that the first thing to do is to - break the curse of the family.

Look at your own family, what crazy ideas and rules, and in some cases, even abusement haven't been around for ages?

Me, myself was beaten to shit during the early 1960's by my choleric father. 10 years later they forbid hitting your child in this country. And I never laid my hand on my children in the way that he did on us three brothers, just because I had promised myself to not be like him and do what he did to me.

Then there is mea culpa and the curse on modern society, but that is another class.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2014, 05:17:59 AM by Jahn »

Offline Taimyr

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Re: The second coming
« Reply #139 on: August 14, 2014, 05:18:57 AM »
So tell me, how does the "naked child" see the world? We all can see that the world is a mess and and there could be a much nicer world if majority would work towards it. Is that an opinion? This idea of naked child sound like simply being indifferent about what is going on in the world.



Another typical snag could be that one reduce one capabilities like  - I am not that type of person, I couldn't do that.

Then there are snags that are embedded in our opinions. We all like to identify our selves with our opinions (but the naked child hasn't any opinions). All X are bad, and X people do bad things. X people cannot handle freedome and so on. That is typical mental snags that functionas hurdles for the free nagual flow.

The only spiritual direction that a Toltec warrior has, is to get rid of the curse from mankind.

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Re: The second coming
« Reply #140 on: August 14, 2014, 05:30:54 AM »
This idea of naked child sound like simply being indifferent about what is going on in the world.

No it isn't.
As adults we have all that "knowing and details" regarding the world around us. We are often well informed about what is going on. The difference is that we do not let such circumstances being hurdles in the flow.

We all can see that the world is a mess and and there could be a much nicer world if majority would work towards it. Is that an opinion?


We can choose to act, of course we should do when our empathy says so. But we are still in our flow and have our autonomy, and we do not let the troubles in the world steel our energy or stop our universal flow. That is why one should not engage too much in "the World" at the beginning of the path, because then the world can consume us.

It is a good saying that if my partner brakes the arm, I do care for her/him and be supportive with the aim to easy up the daily life. But I do not go and get my own arm broken just to show sympathy.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2014, 05:33:31 AM by Jahn »

Offline Taimyr

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Re: The second coming
« Reply #141 on: August 14, 2014, 05:34:37 AM »
Ok, then I have only to say this: what ever I see in the world, it doesn't take my energy and these things are in no way hurdles for me.

Offline Nick

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Re: The second coming
« Reply #142 on: August 14, 2014, 10:47:52 AM »
Jahn regularly mentions being in the Flow. When I refer to the Flow I am in part referencing the modern psychological concept of Flow, which is quite relevant to the whole naked child idea.

My understanding of what Jahn is saying with the naked child is he is basically talking about the Buddhist concept of the Beginners Mind.

I understand the Beginners Mind as kind of a neutral way of seeing. What I mean; in our normal biased perception we see things in shades. Shades of good, and bad, shades of pretty and ugly, with variable degrees of those qualifiers intermixed. These shades of views make us heavy, create tensions, reactions, and bias our decisions. The create a closed mind. What your looking at here is the fog in front of your eyes. When you self-remember or maintain inner silence for a long enough period of time you can see this fog right in front of your eyes. This stance of Presence is neutral, it deepens you, when sufficiently crystallized you connect to the Axis mundi. The ultimate neutral and openness of beingness. The beginners mind is to see your world with an attitude of openness, to see it as the ultimate beginner; a child. Nakedness is a lack of the psyche's clothing; a removal of your masks, a shedding of your form.

He mentioned being a mature adult who is a naked child. Again we have a fusion of two opposite poles; a neutrality. Adult and child at the same time. You retain your learning, but you see in a clear unbiased way.

To see things from aside, as Taimyr says, yes this much what we are talking about. Stepping outside yourself, is removing the masks of the false identity. Then Jahn mentions the curse of humanity; explains this as an extension of the families curse. We are all one big family. That family is internalized in each of us, it starts at an early age. Its sad how quickly the child's world is snuffed out. A bit of that remains as the inner child, and recapitulation resurrects it. When you see things from aside yourself the next step out is to see beyond the world internalized in you.

In psychology the concept of Flow, as described by Mihály Csíkszentmihályi is also a neutral position. Things are often to challenging or not challenging enough, but when you find the right balance you can access Flow. You don't make it happen, but being balanced allows it to.

With your blinders on you make things too heavy, or you take them for granted. You react to much or at the wrong times, you are overly emotional, or mis-emotional. If you adopt the naked child's mind you eventually clear the dross, and can enter the Flow.

It is not indifference.... You see through difference from a place behind and above.



"As long as we confuse the myriad forms of the divine lila with reality, without perceiving the unity of Brahman underlying all these forms, we are under the spell of maya..."
 -Fritjof Capra, The Tao of Physics: An Exploration of the Parallels between Modern Physics and Eastern Mysticism

Jahn

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Re: The second coming
« Reply #143 on: August 15, 2014, 05:13:02 AM »
Jahn regularly mentions being in the Flow. When I refer to the Flow I am in part referencing the modern psychological concept of Flow, which is quite relevant to the whole naked child idea.

My understanding of what Jahn is saying with the naked child is he is basically talking about the Buddhist concept of the Beginners Mind.

I understand the Beginners Mind as kind of a neutral way of seeing. What I mean; in our normal biased perception we see things in shades. Shades of good, and bad, shades of pretty and ugly, with variable degrees of those qualifiers intermixed. These shades of views make us heavy, create tensions, reactions, and bias our decisions. The create a closed mind. What your looking at here is the fog in front of your eyes. ....


Gee Nick, you have read a lot! I am quite impressed.


Let us just clear out a few things. the naked child concept has very little to do with the "beginner". The naked child is an metaphore for the man without pretense, and without any agenda.

Only a fraction of all spiritually devoted people will ever reach the stage of the naked child, so it is thereby not any beginners stage. The naked child within an adult holds the eyes of the Nagual, but is not the Nagual teacher per se.

What I mean; in our normal biased perception we see things in shades. Shades of good, and bad, shades of pretty and ugly, with variable degrees of those qualifiers intermixed. These shades of views make us heavy, create tensions, reactions, and bias our decisions. The create a closed mind.


Completely right! As adults we have collected so much garbage across the years that we have had become light years from our origin. We are full of misperceptions, opinions and lies. All this makes us heavy and blind for the miracle that are in front of our eyes each day.

Our luggage also bias our decisions as you say, and most important of all, it becomes a hurdle for us to be in the flow of the Universe.

You see, when there is an impulse from the Universe, we can act upon it. If we are "heavy" and carry our own agenda, then it is unlikely that we act, or if we act, it will not be by our full heart. But if we are light as a feather, then we can use that impulse to its full potential.

« Last Edit: August 15, 2014, 05:23:07 AM by Jahn »

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Re: The second coming
« Reply #144 on: August 15, 2014, 05:29:16 AM »
Ok, then I have only to say this: what ever I see in the world, it doesn't take my energy and these things are in no way hurdles for me.

No it wouldn't deplete your energey (in your case). So you are right to a certain extent, it is odd on average, but true in your case. (The exception defines the rule).

However, these things operate within you as an obstacle for acheiving higher levels of energy in life. So the question remains - How familiar are you with the Not-Doing lessons that Castaneda provided?
« Last Edit: August 15, 2014, 05:31:17 AM by Jahn »

Offline Taimyr

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Re: The second coming
« Reply #145 on: August 15, 2014, 06:00:58 AM »
No I don't see it as an obstacle to be looking at the world with open eyes. It's part of becoming aware, it's the growth of awareness when you start to see what is really happening around you. And it's not just an opinion.

I don't find it relevant at a given moment to be practicing these things the way Castaneda described. I don't live by the book :) my surroundings and life provide me the necessary lessons.

No it wouldn't deplete your energey (in your case). So you are right to a certain extent, it is odd on average, but true in your case. (The exception defines the rule).

However, these things operate within you as an obstacle for acheiving higher levels of energy in life. So the question remains - How familiar are you with the Not-Doing lessons that Castaneda provided?

Offline Nick

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Re: The second coming
« Reply #146 on: August 15, 2014, 08:46:04 AM »

Let us just clear out a few things. the naked child concept has very little to do with the "beginner". The naked child is an metaphore for the man without pretense, and without any agenda.

Only a fraction of all spiritually devoted people will ever reach the stage of the naked child, so it is thereby not any beginners stage. The naked child within an adult holds the eyes of the Nagual, but is not the Nagual teacher per se.


The beginners mind in Zen Buddhism doesn't really have anything to do with being a beginner either. It is called the beginners mind simply to denote a state of mind that is uncluttered and open, free of preconceptions, pretense, agenda, etc. The word in Japanese is Shoshin.

It may not be quite the same as your concept of the naked child, as there is indeed a difference between the state of mind the beginner has and the very young child has. The similarity is that the very young child is a beginner at life, so I see what you are saying as the ultimate beginners mind.


"As long as we confuse the myriad forms of the divine lila with reality, without perceiving the unity of Brahman underlying all these forms, we are under the spell of maya..."
 -Fritjof Capra, The Tao of Physics: An Exploration of the Parallels between Modern Physics and Eastern Mysticism

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Re: The second coming
« Reply #147 on: August 16, 2014, 03:17:57 AM »
The beginners mind in Zen Buddhism doesn't really have anything to do with being a beginner either. It is called the beginners mind simply to denote a state of mind that is uncluttered and open, free of preconceptions, pretense, agenda, etc. The word in Japanese is Shoshin.

It may not be quite the same as your concept of the naked child, as there is indeed a difference between the state of mind the beginner has and the very young child has. The similarity is that the very young child is a beginner at life, so I see what you are saying as the ultimate beginners mind.


Thank you Nick for the explanation. If it is that way you describe then the Eyes of the Naked child (within the adult warrior) is comparable with the Beginners mind.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2014, 03:22:16 AM by Jahn »

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Re: The second coming
« Reply #148 on: August 16, 2014, 03:21:00 AM »

I don't find it relevant at a given moment to be practicing these things the way Castaneda described. I don't live by the book :) my surroundings and life provide me the necessary lessons.


Of course not dear, you have found your own way above the clouds and do not need any earthly distractions of how ordinary spiritual warriors work their way towards infinity (as ghosts). To put it like Scorpios do - a bit blunt and to some extent convincing.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2014, 03:24:16 AM by Jahn »

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Re: The second coming
« Reply #149 on: August 16, 2014, 03:28:51 AM »
my surroundings and life provide me the necessary lessons.


That is an interesting view. Because your surroundings and life will mostly reflect back your position on your spiritual as it is right now. (A new house is a good manifestation). But unless life is your teacher (which isn't the case) you would not have enough fuel to propel further by only wait for what life provide for you. It will be the same as going in circles.


You, yourself must be the engine for growth and evolution. It is you that shall dictate the coming progress - not your daily experiences. If you sit down on your back like that, then you'll never reach your full potential and the magic in life that waits around the corner.

« Last Edit: August 16, 2014, 03:33:44 AM by Jahn »

 

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