Soma
Tools of the Path => Action [Public] => Topic started by: Josh on March 02, 2007, 03:24:37 AM
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[In the 4th way, students must understand the knowledge they are given before attempting to practice it or apply it in any way. Understanding is to replace blind belief or faith. 'Knowing' can only grow from understanding. It does not magically appear out of thin air. We grow in steps that might seem to be leaps, yet they are still steps after all. Concentrate on taking the steps, not where you believe yourself to be going.]
Perhaps some of you remember times when either Kris or I have mentioned the term 'accidents' in regards to the path and life in general. I cannot speak for Kris, but whenever I use this term in this way I am referring to the connotations and usage that G. I. Gurdjieff has placed on it. One of his major contentions was that man cannot 'do'. Every person thinks they can 'do' things because the circumstances of their life have led them to believe that they are somehow the cause of them. In actuality, the situations and circumstances of life are really the only thing in control, and they simply happen to us. These circumstances and happenings of life that are unrelated to manifestations of 'being-willpower' Gurdjieff has called 'accidents'. These happenings are not the result of uninterupted effort on one's part, and therefore they are essentially results of the world in action (at the level of society of man). The world pushes us, we move a little bit, it pushes a little more, we move a little more. We cannot say that it is our intent or actual effort that has placed us in the situations we find ourselves. We are only reacting to outside circumstance and basically floating like a leaf on the wind.
Gurdjieff placed untold importance on a certain diagram known as the enneagram. It is a specific map of how everything works (in all worlds). G. used to say that a man who knew how to use the enneagram correctly could unravel the secrets of the universe with it. He could be alone in the desert, and all he would have to do is trace it in the sand and apply his knowledge of how it works. He could go back to it again and again and learn something completely new each time. Of course, the real knowledge is how to use the enneagram, not the enneagram itself (which consists of nine points laid around a circle with lines connecting each of them together in a specific pattern).
G. contended that everything happened in octaves. Every manifestation, every event - from the ray of creation down to the simple action of a rock dropped in a pond - all of these things follow the same law of manifestation. This law says that there are seven stages of development to everything, with two missing semi-tones in between the 3rd and 4th, and the 7th and 8th stages. These missing semi-tones are where action along that line ceases unless a shock of further energy is applied. So many events at our level of life never reach past the 3rd stage of manifestation. This is how cycles are created. The manifestation begins and reaches a certain point where it can no longer be carried by the intial momentum; at that point a certain energy must be applied or the manifestation will cease. This is why rain stops once it has started, it does not continue to build into a full out world-flood. This is why people must continually eat more food every day, instead of recieving all nourishment at one sitting. Our physical organism is dependant on many laws that apply to our level of life, which is the life of man in general. We are under the influence of our specific nature at this level. It is the nature of earthly life. G. went on to say that most people actually live under the influence of even more laws than are really required of earthly life. These people are serving the moon and therefore fall under some of the laws that would apply to such a life. Accidents are manifestations of our level of life and essentially one of the laws that we fall under. They are incomplete manifestations of action - action without conscious influence. These manifestations are never completed by us, they only act upon us and force us to live with the results. This is why man cannot 'do'. He is but a pawn of incomprehensible forces. Man could become accustomed to and perhaps even learn to somehow cooperate with these forces and even bypass many of the laws that we fall under, except for the fact that he believes he already has. He believes he can 'do'. He believes he has 'will'. He believes he 'knows'. He believes he has 'understanding'. Man has none of these qualities and yet it is his unacceptance of this simple fact which will keep him from ever acquiring them - even though they are our birthright as the beings that we are. The only problem is that they are not provided by nature, we must earn them by our own hard work and conscious effort.
This is where I want to get to the actual reason for this post, as the law of accidents might be misinterpreted by some to mean chance coincidence or random occurence or some such thing. This meaning of accident has to do with the incompletion of real action, not some idea of randomness or chance. Everything that happens to anyone anywhere is under a divine plan sent straight from the Absolute. You will never be able to comprehend it, so dont bother trying. Instead, concern yourself with the result of these accidents.
When you incarnate or arise into this earthly life, you have a certain plan or destiny to everything that happens to you from the moment of birth to the moment of death. This plan or destiny is so vast and unimaginably comprehensive in it's scope that an infinitude of occurences can happen within its range. This means that you can benefit immensely from your life or even completely blow your chance to get anything done, and it is all within the range of your destiny. What we need to do is to forge our 'Fate' - a conscious cooperation with this destiny that maximizes all chances for the ultimate evolution and growth as a being.
Fate belongs to very few people. It is serious work. Fate is created by one from the ground up (so to speak), eventually linking with destiny and steering both in a new direction. Accidents are destiny's way of trying to reach you from the outside. It is the interaction of your infinite impersonal destiny with your personal life. It steers you in certain directions so that you may learn from life. This kind of path is called the 'objective way'. Schools and systems of learning are termed 'subjective ways'. Because the scope of ones destiny is so immeasurably vast, infinite varieties of happenings are possible, (although many people will get stuck in loops of the same few happenings anyway - the lessons they fail to learn will never be repeated in the same way so they become more lost and could quite possibly spiral around this way into an entropic end). So although you cannot ever stray outside your destiny, you must realize that infinite things are possible within that destiny. What you must concern yourself with is the creation of your personal Fate - a personal Fate that has the potential to link you with your impersonal Destiny (at a level that is beyond the personal-impersonal dyad). This is the only way to fulfill the destiny that lies beyond earthly life.
The path of personal development that we have all embarked on has somehow led us here to participate together (somewhat) as a group on this internet message board forum. As you all most likely know by now, starting upon this path itself has been a great step in terms of our destiny. We are all somewhat given to this destiny, even if we are only involved with the path in the most superficial way. Most of us are actually quite a bit more involved, and we take everything to heart. Those of us who are truly doing our best to further the work on ourselves will inevitably be drawn to help others work on themselves, and we will also be drawn to help further the work itself in general. These three lines of action are essential to our destiny in regards to the path. They must all be acted on harmoniously, but if we are truly dedicated, our nature will steer us to do this anyway as that is the only way it will work at all. [on a side note: You dont have to be connected with a group to be able to help others work on themselves, and you dont have to be a teacher to help further the work in general]
Our Fate is the linking force that we will use to connect with our Destiny. Fate must be created by us by our own effort. It obviously begins with the first choice we make to embark upon this path. From then on we must continue to do the work ourselves and be able to increase our efforts without straining ourselves or giving up. This will take supreme dedication, and yet there is always something we can do to take that next step, so there is never any real excuse to not be doing something (even if it is only consciously resting). The line of action involving work on ourselves personally is what we begin with. It is also the one that our Fate has initially sprung from. So at first, we will be most concerned with the work on ourselves.
Our Destiny is constantly reaching out to us to guide us along. However, as I said earlier, the possibilities involved in ones destiny are literally infinite. That is why we must become involved to truly bring out the best and most beneficial possibilities (in terms of our personal development and evolution). As our destiny reaches out for us, we must reach out to it so that eventually we will make contact and become one with it. It is not anything like shooting in the dark, because our Destiny and Fate are magnetically attracted to each other - they naturally want to link and become one. Although there is a great distance we must cross, a great bridge we must build. The more we are able to help ourselves the more help we will recieve from our destiny. All we really have to do is meet it halfway and we can connect with it. The question is can we make it halfway? That is the supreme effort I am talking about. We dont have to singlehandedly climb mount everest, but we do have to reach the guide that will lead us to the top. For most of us, this will take a monumental amount of work.
So we need to concentrate on taking each step as they come. If we are looking ahead of ourselves, admiring the glorious land which we are approaching, we will not see the dark precipice that suddenly looms over the next hill and causes us to stumble and perhaps even fall. We must focus on the step right in front of us if we dont want this to happen. We must always concern ourselves with the present task at hand, because that is the task we must undertake to be able to make any progress towards a NEW task.
Become involved with every choice you make, every thought, every word, every movement, every expression of emotion. If you cant stay relaxed and supple in the face of adversity, how will you ever be able to really relax at all? If you cant think about what you want to think about all the time, how will you ever be able to really think at all? If you cant always make contact with your heart and feel every feeling you have, how will you ever be able to really feel at all? We need to eliminate our dependency on conditions. Conditional circumstances can only take us so far before they dissappear and leave us unsupported again. Today everything might be going our way and making us happy so work on ourselves becomes a pleasent icing on a cake, a joy to perform because we are filled with the vibrant energy of happiness; but tommorow everything may change... will we be able to keep up the effort? Today we might be alone for many hours and find ourselves slipping into deep internal silence very easily; but tommorrow we may be surrounded by people all the time... will we be able to keep up the effort? Today we might be well fed and healthy, attaining a soothing state of physical balance in perfect relaxation; but tommorrow we might be hit by a car or get food poisoning... will we be able to keep up the effort?
We cannot simply choose to accept part of our being and reject the unpleasant parts. If we want to work on unpleasant aspects, we must accept them wholeheartedly, not reject or avoid them. Otherwise we will never get close enough to do anything about them. The kind of selective attraction-repulsion impulse that is based on pain and pleasure (of any kind) is a very conditional arrangement. Here's a piece of advice for everyone: the aspects of yourself you want to avoid working on the most are exactly the aspects you need to be working on the most. That is your indicator. The key for work on oneself is Harmony and Balance. Effort applied wrongly will affect one wrongly. One-sided and imbalanced effort will result in a one-sided and imbalanced being. That is why the most supreme and highest effort involves ALL aspects of the work; it is the balancing of ALL forces of effort and action across the board - both personally and impersonally. It has been called impeccability by DJ and CC; and it is always within our reach. The more we can remain impeccable, the more chance our Fate has to grow.
The more harmonious effort we put forth, the more harmony we will see coming back to us in our lives. We will begin to see a creative or meaningful pattern to the events of our life. We will begin to see signs and omens reaching out to lead us. Simply heeding their call and acting upon them is not enough. We must make further effort to reach out ourselves and make contact with Spirit. This is where creating our Fate comes down to our presence in the moment. Whatever action we take, no matter how tiny and insignificant it may seem - it actually affects everything that exists, it all adds up. If your actions are always dragging you here and there, up and down, with no sustained momentum in any conscious direction, then you will continue to be at whims of circumstance until you make the effort to steer yourself in some way. Fate is a kind of conscious momentum that has the potential to become infinitely more than a personal effort.
- rajajuju 01/27/01
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Excellent sharing Joshua, thank you :)
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It all
In just a few moments of extreme reflection I once asked myself, “Self, what ONE thing are you MOST afraid of?” After a few months of extreme contemplation I could only answer, “My death. I am afraid to die.” And then, quite alarmingly, another part of me suddenly asked me, “Why do you think you were born?” Not thinking for even a moment, ,I quickly answered back, “What? I don’t understand the question!”
“Why do you think you were born?”, came the repeated question, from somewhere quite newly-found that very moment inside me. “Isn’t your birth really just something your Dad and Mom told you and you have since taken so much for granted ?” He continued, this other person inside me, “In childhood did you ever ask where you came from? And didn’t your parents then tell you that you were born?”
I then thought to myself that this had really happened when I was about 8 or so and I totally accepted what I thought was an obvious answer. Then this nagging voice, this other person I had not know of inside me ever before, reflected, “How can you have birth without death?”
After more months of meditation upon only this, I began to ask myself if were there two very distinct poles of the same concept, ANY concept? Have I been alive all along, maybe forever?
When I accepted my folks’ seemingly obvious answer back then, was I automatically entering into an agreement with myself to fear this terrible, terrible thing called death? i.e., did things, ANY thing, really end at all? I mean, any THING?
I sat in shock, there on my studio slider, just a year ago. Was also death something I had agreed with myself to accept as existing, like fear or loneliness or even happiness? Is what I am asking myself to do, is question really just another space-time event that doesn’t actually exist at all, except in my very personal inventory?
Then, laughingly, after much, much more meditation upon this internal conversation that seemed to suddenly enter my life, I asked myself, “Self, is the brute force of death just really a mystery only, at best?”
Have I, I guess I am asking myself this moment, always been around?
Is a bigger question more in the nature of, “What is the nature of my existence?” Is mortality just something which has cast a spell over me, over almost all of the humankind? Should I, should WE see through our fears and let them motivate us to examine closer our own “true worth”? i.e., isn’t “it all” about how I see myself?
Is THIS why I see my “true self” as a divine time-travelor?
Is THIS how I sense the continuity of all things?
And, finally ........ yeh, finally, is “it all” just about waking up, about doing whatever it takes to actually listen to what our existence is trying to tell you and I about you and I?
Or am I still not listening close enough?
Tommy Two Feathers, 030307
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Id meditate next on what is "I" perhaps that will bring clarity to all your questions.
:-* Jennifer
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I like where you are going with this, Tommy. And where you've been.
I promise I'll answer your request about more on my idea of simultaneous lives v. reincarnation.
Take care,
Todd
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[In the 4th way, students must understand the knowledge they are given before attempting to practice it or apply it in any way. Understanding is to replace blind belief or faith. 'Knowing' can only grow from understanding. It does not magically appear out of thin air. We grow in steps that might seem to be leaps, yet they are still steps after all. Concentrate on taking the steps, not where you believe yourself to be going.]
What does understanding something prior to experiencing it through practice means?
How is it possible?
For me true understanding of something only comes after experiencing it.
Experience always changes mental concepts existing beforehand and adds the actual depth to the thing understood.
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What does understanding something prior to experiencing it through practice means?
How is it possible?
For me true understanding of something only comes after experiencing it.
Experience always changes mental concepts existing beforehand and adds the actual depth to the thing understood.
I have some major issues with this piece, other than the opening paragraph, which isn't phrased very well. In this, there are some things that need explaining to the student before practice, perhaps music for example, where the practice must be taught before it's actually done. Otherwise, it's just a bunch of marks on a piece of paper.
You are right, practice must accompany theory in order for understanding to occur, in most instances.
In this piece, it is asserted that man is powerless, he can't do anything. In so many words, that is patent bullshit. But, he's entitled to his beliefs and opinion.
For example:
"One of his [Gurdjieff"s] major contentions was that man cannot 'do'."
"In actuality, the situations and circumstances of life are really the only thing in control, and they simply happen to us."
The rest of the piece takes those premises as true and tries to explain how we can "do" things and not be victims of Fate, without openly contradicting these premises. Since this piece is in the realm of the belief system of logic as an expository essay, I'll stay within that belief system and say that this piece would have flunked out of Logic 101.
Respectully,
Todd
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Id meditate next on what is "I" perhaps that will bring clarity to all your questions.
:-* Jennifer
Are you asking me if I doubt my "I"? I can surely doubt my view of it as complete.
Had lotsa snow here again. Digging out our vehicles a little at a time. Great stuff to walk in, if one is strolling. Sounds seem to travel so very far across its' expanses. Especially at night when the distant traffic here subsides. Shhhhhhhh.
Saw a giant hawk on the way to work. We both had something to do before the winds subside.
2F
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What does understanding something prior to experiencing it through practice means?
How is it possible?
For me true understanding of something only comes after experiencing it.
Experience always changes mental concepts existing beforehand and adds the actual depth to the thing understood.
No, not understanding the process, understanding the objective of the practice. For example, someone tells you to "ride your bike down the street". Understanding the objective means that you would know that riding your bike down the street will allow you to get to the grocery store to buy milk. It is different than just riding a bike because you were instructed to do so.
Experience is different. You may not understand exactly how your muscles and bones coordinate in complete harmony to throw a ball at a specific target, but you can become very experienced at doing so regardless of this.
I have some major issues with this piece, other than the opening paragraph, which isn't phrased very well.
The rest of the piece takes those premises as true and tries to explain how we can "do" things and not be victims of Fate, without openly contradicting these premises. Since this piece is in the realm of the belief system of logic as an expository essay, I'll stay within that belief system and say that this piece would have flunked out of Logic 101.
Respectully,
Todd
The vast majority of people have "major issues" with the fundamental concepts of the 4th way. Especially the insinuation that man cannot "do", does not have "will" or even "consciousness", and that he is a mindless robot completely asleep at the wheel.
Logic 101 has no bearing on 4th way discussions because these discussions are not exoteric enough to use standard definitions. This is not, as you put it "in the realm of the belief system of logic as an expository essay". It is in the realm of 4th way teachings, and that is the system you must stay in if you wish to comment on it at that level. Certain terms and concepts have definitions and meanings that are related only to that particular system, and some are even at odds with their ordinary use. Of course it flunks out of ordinary "Logic 101" - that is the whole point. It is at odds with ordinary thought by design.
Respectfully, someone who is not knowledgeable about the 4th way schools and that system of work wont be able to comprehend a discussion about it. This particular post was addressed to people who were more or less familiar with the fundamentals of that system... as it was written at a time when the Toltec Naugal Forum was full of such people.
Not to insult or deride you in any way, and also Im not even sure I would recommend learning about such a system unless you are really drawn to it in other ways. Its not relaxing or comforting. The 4th way has a large number of very specific, complex, and tediously detailed concepts. Its a great deal of material to go through. Its alot of work. Id have to say its not for most people.
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How is the 4th distinct from all other teachings?
Describe more the specialness you are telling us of.
tom
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I like that interpretation of accident, fate and destiny - I haven't studied the 4th way stuff that far, as I tired of O, but I am aware of G's constant reference to 'accidents', and this clarifies that.
I see it as a more subjective interpretation. By that I mean, if someone bumps into you in the street, it may not be an accident from a 'karmic' perspective, but from your own 'intentional' perspective it may well be an 'accident'. If your intention has reached out to 'destiny', and thus the world responds with 'fate', then the man bumping into you may well be your fate.
Correct me if I'm wrong in this, but it would seem then that we live in 'accident' until we set our intention and that calls destiny, which transforms accident into fate. And there is still room for accidents outside this fate.
The meanings are different here than the common understanding. Fate is usually used to describe the force of events that command our life when we have no powerful intent. Thus G's 'accident' equates to the common understanding of 'fate'.
The 'karmic' influences view is that everything has an antecedent somewhere, and the debate is weather a 'true' accident can occur - ie where there is no antecedent anywhere in time and space. The purest karmicist would thus say accidents are impossible, and the only un-anteceded act was the very first explosion of 'action' from 'stillness', at the dawn of time, which was not accidental in some odd way.
G's use of the word accident, from your text, would say that without intent, everything is basically accident, weather there are karmic antecedents or not is irrelevant, because the prime condition is missing, without which we are flotsam whatever world view you hold.
Then destiny stands there as a possibility, or possibilities, once we acquire will and intent. When this happens, the world responds to us, and offers 'meaningful' accidents, which then G calls 'fate', which if we grasp, can assist us towards our destiny. This reminds me of DJ's similar claim about dreams. Once we set our feet on the Path with real intent, then dreams can be interpreted with value, but until then they are meaningless because there is no central thread around which to reference our interpretation. But more than that, our dreams actually rally to supply support for our intent.
I suppose it is semantics, about which G was very particular, lamenting the sloppiness of word meanings. But the critical point that many people, esp on ‘spiritual’ internet forums fly into a rage about, is that without real intent that can only come from real will, which is a very rare thing, we are pissing in the wind when we claim to be able ‘affect’ the world, either physically or psychically. Mostly we are victims of forces beyond our ken or control, and to save face, we rally behind afterwards and claim that’s what we had wanted to do in the first place.
If we have never done something ‘for no reason whatsoever’, then we haven’t even begun to glimpse the meaning of this.
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No, not understanding the process, understanding the objective of the practice. For example, someone tells you to "ride your bike down the street". Understanding the objective means that you would know that riding your bike down the street will allow you to get to the grocery store to buy milk. It is different than just riding a bike because you were instructed to do so.
Experience is different. You may not understand exactly how your muscles and bones coordinate in complete harmony to throw a ball at a specific target, but you can become very experienced at doing so regardless of this.
Cheers!
This clarifies it!
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I like that interpretation of accident, fate and destiny - I haven't studied the 4th way stuff that far, as I tired of O, but I am aware of G's constant reference to 'accidents', and this clarifies that.
I see it as a more subjective interpretation. By that I mean, if someone bumps into you in the street, it may not be an accident from a 'karmic' perspective, but from your own 'intentional' perspective it may well be an 'accident'. If your intention has reached out to 'destiny', and thus the world responds with 'fate', then the man bumping into you may well be your fate.
Correct me if I'm wrong in this, but it would seem then that we live in 'accident' until we set our intention and that calls destiny, which transforms accident into fate. And there is still room for accidents outside this fate.
The meanings are different here than the common understanding. Fate is usually used to describe the force of events that command our life when we have no powerful intent. Thus G's 'accident' equates to the common understanding of 'fate'.
The 'karmic' influences view is that everything has an antecedent somewhere, and the debate is weather a 'true' accident can occur - ie where there is no antecedent anywhere in time and space. The purest karmicist would thus say accidents are impossible, and the only un-anteceded act was the very first explosion of 'action' from 'stillness', at the dawn of time, which was not accidental in some odd way.
G's use of the word accident, from your text, would say that without intent, everything is basically accident, weather there are karmic antecedents or not is irrelevant, because the prime condition is missing, without which we are flotsam whatever world view you hold.
Then destiny stands there as a possibility, or possibilities, once we acquire will and intent. When this happens, the world responds to us, and offers 'meaningful' accidents, which then G calls 'fate', which if we grasp, can assist us towards our destiny. This reminds me of DJ's similar claim about dreams. Once we set our feet on the Path with real intent, then dreams can be interpreted with value, but until then they are meaningless because there is no central thread around which to reference our interpretation. But more than that, our dreams actually rally to supply support for our intent.
I suppose it is semantics, about which G was very particular, lamenting the sloppiness of word meanings. But the critical point that many people, esp on ‘spiritual’ internet forums fly into a rage about, is that without real intent that can only come from real will, which is a very rare thing, we are pissing in the wind when we claim to be able ‘affect’ the world, either physically or psychically. Mostly we are victims of forces beyond our ken or control, and to save face, we rally behind afterwards and claim that’s what we had wanted to do in the first place.
If we have never done something ‘for no reason whatsoever’, then we haven’t even begun to glimpse the meaning of this.
Okay, this makes sense. It's a far cry from the piece at the top of the thread. I've read much of this 4th way stuff way back in the spaces between. Before I found my will and intent. It didn't make sense then, either. It seemed then, and seems now, that it was intended to destroy the mind, to make it malleable to others' influence. It does not cleanse the mind to make it more efficient and supple, as say, Don Juan's techniques in "The Teachings of don Juan, A Yaqui Way of Knowledge".
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Most of this 4th way stuff seems ok. Some may be useful, some not. What I have found lately is this with the full cycle related to the missing tangents in the octave that need a push or a leap. In Toltec terms i understand that this means that to continue in a cycle where a single step is not enough to come forward with, then we must do a action of power. That is in other terms a manifestation of our (hopefully) unbending intent.
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Concentrate on taking the steps, not where you believe yourself to be going.
I like this.
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Okay, this makes sense. It's a far cry from the piece at the top of the thread. I've read much of this 4th way stuff way back in the spaces between. Before I found my will and intent. It didn't make sense then, either. It seemed then, and seems now, that it was intended to destroy the mind, to make it malleable to others' influence. It does not cleanse the mind to make it more efficient and supple, as say, Don Juan's techniques in "The Teachings of don Juan, A Yaqui Way of Knowledge".
I have heard the same thing be said of Don Juan's teachings but we know this not to be true. To the contrary it is quite the opposite where some believe that Don Juan's teachings make us more malleable others you and I believe they cleanse the mind to make it more efficient and supple.
In this case it is the same phenomenon. You because of your beliefs see Gurdjieff's techniques one way those who understand see it differently.
These types of misunderstandings happen in all areas were there is a specialized type of knowledge that others have not fully made themselves familiar with.
Others for example have considered me to be selfish because I make my self a priority, because I care for myself very much. Others see this as selfish and consider me to be more self important than others when in fact caring for myself the way I do is a different kind of self-importance that is empowering to me and others who meet me. Unlike egotistic self-importance that is harmful to others in its neglect of others. I know that to truly care for myself I must care for those around me.
As far as Gurdjieff's logic, using the same way of looking at it, Gurdjieff's logic is more holistic. The reason I am drawn to Gurdjieff is that I discovered the enneagram on my own as a child just by personal inspiration. I had never read a book about it it just came to me when I was thinking about opposites and balance. Logic as I'm sure you know is all about opposites and this is what makes the enneagram so logically complete. But, like raja has said no it is not "conventional" logic. I would compare it to the "logic" that nature fallows itself. Mankind may create it's own system but nature has a system already that we can not help but fallow often quite unconsciously, the enneagram simply reflects the logic of the patterns of nature itself.
In here though I am using the word logic in a different way. Not the logic man made but the logic of why the nature is the way it is. Why planets are round, why the earth rotates around the sun, why things flow in cycles etc etc.
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Just to emphasize my point, and point of view...
Nature is our creation. There's no such things as accidents. The universe intentionally acts out every possibility. Logic of any sort is a sytem of thought organization. It is not absolute. Some logical systems tolerate contradiction. The Aristotelian and Socratic logic that I was trained with does not. I'll accept that some ways are different than mine, that's okay. My purpose is self-creation and experience, and translating that experience to others. Although I don't think opposite philosophies are right or wrong, they don't facillitate my my purpose.
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Nature is our creation.
Is it?
Maybe description of it is, but not the nature itself.
Can you create Earth? Sentient being as it is?
Or can you create Moon?
Or Sun - Eagle as it is?
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Maybe a more vivid description of what you call "nature" would be in order here, G-slinger.
t
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Is it?
Maybe description of it is, but not the nature itself.
Can you create Earth? Sentient being as it is?
Or can you create Moon?
Or Sun - Eagle as it is?
I said "OUR" creation, for one thing, and that's not to slide the issue. My reality is created by me with my perception, sun and moon and stars, included. We agree, all of us, constantly, to be creating this universe. If we didn't, it wouldn't be here in an instant. It would just be the energy that it is, perhaps configured by consciousness some other way. As a matter of fact, it is that, too.
We do not exist outside of nature, we are it, and it is us (part of us, anyway.) The Earth may be sentient, I don't know. I do know it is consciousness, as is everything (if I want to concede for the moment that there's really "things".) We are so much more than we think we are; thinking we are these puny consciousnesses stuck in human bodies is very discounting of us.
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Maybe a more vivid description of what you call "nature" would be in order here, G-slinger.
t
Okay, I promised I would. Be back in a bit with a new thread. :-)
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We are so much more than we think we are; thinking we are these puny consciousnesses stuck in human bodies is very discounting of us.
Just remember - we are 'made' and 'eaten' by Eagle.
Greatness and creating anything ends there.
When we are at our peak power - we are fully aligned with Eagle's command.
At our hour of glory and magnificence we create what Eagle creates and wants us to create.
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You know, Eric, you are entitled to believe that. It's neither right or wrong. Your belief is the reality of it. However, it is a real test of my acceptance to not rip that to shreds.
I create my own reality, and I don't create yours. If you want to believe that you are a slave to a feathered form of the Form of Man, then so be it. Quetzlcoatl, perhaps? ;D
You are not wrong to believe that. You are not right either. Either way, it matters not. Thank you for the lesson in acceptance.
Peace and letting this be.
Todd
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I was aming at one, and one thing only - all theories are to be tested in practice.
Claim regarding creating 'nature' needs to be tested.
I took an easier option - I put forward statements tested by generations of Toltecs.
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The test on creating Sun=Eagle would be actually quite interesting one. :)
If you went to Eagle in dreaming, it ought to be quite an effort to avoid being crushed by its sheer power (according to Toltecs)
Moreover, after death that being - Sun/Eagle - ought to still be there to assimilate your consciousness.
Hence the test would be twofold - in dreaming while being alive and after death. :)
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If there's one thing that science has taught us it is that each experience is unique. There will be none other like it. What has been experienced in the past is not an absolute. Neither the Toltecs nor anyone else is special nor priviledged to be an exception in that regard.
To one extent or another, the results of a test or an experiment are determined by the set up of the experiment or test, the beliefs of the experimenter, and the perception of the test grader.
I appreciate your comedown from the absolute statements of before.
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Don't get me wrong. :)
Science is focused on experience and experiments that can be repeated and tested many times over so that laws and regularities can be formulated (in this context there is strong argument whether social science is science at all)
So are Toltecs. They work in groups so that perception of one is always tested by others.
My point is - there is reality beyond our wishes and desires and will.
Sun/Eagle is the best example - it creates us and not the other way round.
We would never have enough energy to create and sustain life in Solar system.
There's nothing we can do about it - Eagle consumes our awareness (life experience with awareness, to be precise) after death regardless.
We cannot get rid of it even by killing ourselves.
That was my point - we gonna test this thing regardless of our beliefs.
Our lives are set up this way.
So what could be the practical test of your beliefs regarding creating nature?
What can you actually physically create?
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I create my own reality, and I don't create yours. If you want to believe that you are a slave to a feathered form of the Form of Man, then so be it. Quetzlcoatl, perhaps? ;D
Perhaps I'm being picky here.. I see it rather as I am the creator of my own expereince - reality? hmm.. I don't know much about that!! Still trying to understand this whole thing around "reality"! :)
You are not wrong to believe that. You are not right either. Either way, it matters not. Thank you for the lesson in acceptance.
"Not wrong, not right".. heh.. you did mention you were into law!! :D
I am beginning to understand your "it matters not". For myself, when something "matters not" I don't exchange at all in it. As you can see, this whole 'thing' around "reality" does matter to me, hence my correspondence! ;)
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My point is - there is reality beyond our wishes and desires and will.
yes, but if we don't want to incorporate it, we won't.
Sun/Eagle is the best example - it creates us and not the other way round.
It is acceptable if you want to name your god YHWH, the Sun, Queztlcoatle, or The Eagle. :-)
We would never have enough energy to create and sustain life in Solar system.
There's enough energy to create whatever we want. We are not closed systems, and there are no closed systems in the universe.
There's nothing we can do about it - Eagle consumes our awareness (life experience with awareness, to be precise) after death regardless.
Really? Okay.
That was my point - we gonna test this thing regardless of our beliefs.
Our lives are set up this way.
Acknowledged. I would say our lives are set up "this" way, BY US.
So what could be the practical test of your beliefs regarding creating nature?
What can you actually physically create?
Life IS the practical test. Your life is your practicum. My life is mine. I'm not responsible for yours. It's all an experiment in experience and creation. It's not my responsiblity to assure you or convince you. I do know that practical creation happens, whether we are paying attention or not, to ourselves, to our beliefs, to our automatic responses, to what we are focusing on, to what we are doing, thinking, and feeling. We can keep our power, or we can give it away to others and to our beliefs. Either way, we create our own reality on purpose or by default.
Fear is not the first enemy of the warrior. Self-doubt is.
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Perhaps I'm being picky here.. I see it rather as I am the creator of my own expereince - reality? hmm.. I don't know much about that!! Still trying to understand this whole thing around "reality"! :)
What is your experience? Your reality? *smiles*
"Not wrong, not right".. heh.. you did mention you were into law!! :D
*smiles* Yes I did!! It's a game. It's a giant belief system in which I play. It is remunerative. It's a "practice" in acceptance and a demonstration of most of the ways the belief system of duplicity is applied.
I am beginning to understand your "it matters not". For myself, when something "matters not" I don't exchange at all in it. As you can see, this whole 'thing' around "reality" does matter to me, hence my correspondence! ;)
I'm acknowledging and appreciating your interest. :-) Reality matters. Experience matters. Beliefs do not, unless we want them to.
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What is your experience? Your reality? *smiles*
heh you got me there! :D
*smiles* Yes I did!! It's a game. It's a giant belief system in which I play. It is remunerative. It's a "practice" in acceptance and a demonstration of most of the ways the belief system of duplicity is applied.
People's renumerative activity has always fascinated me. I find my own reflects in many ways that which provides the clues to my own seeking.
I'm acknowledging and appreciating your interest. :-) Reality matters. Experience matters. Beliefs do not, unless we want them to.
Thank you. I like to explore my beliefs. In hindsight I have found many of them rather limiting. On the other hand, I rather enjoy lack of belief although I do hold to some. I find that some reinforce my reality. Sometimes it's what I want. At others times I find it a hindrance.
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;D
Anybody that looks finds that what they do provides clues to their seeking. Believe it or else, mine does that for me. DUH! *smiles*
I can't emphasize this enough...Noticing is 99% of everything in this.
In your paragraph on beliefs, that's it in a nutshell. You've got the noticing, addressing, and the acceptance down. After that, they all just become preferences and opinions, and like opinions, everyone's got those!!
I'm acknowledging this a lot!! KEWEL!
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I'm starting to see this constant evaluation of beliefs, concomitant with a "positive thinking" stance, as a grand ruse, to convince ourselves (deludedly) that we are in control --- that everything-is-okay, everything-is-okay, "if we want it to be". It's very sneaky, and I'm sure it's not what Jane Roberts intended.
I'm not just saying this in regards to you, Todd. In other settings, I've been witnessing a kind of amorality rising, so long as there is lipservice to the idea that we-create-our-own-reality. Put together with some toltec concepts, it's the perfect feeding ground for manipulative sorts, and it breeds a black-and-white orientation, that if challenged, reveals itself to be quite brittle indeed.
It reminds me of an eating disorder I once had: anorexia (way over that now, heheh). How? In order to sustain and maintain the system, there has to be a near-obsession with it. The ones who seem to "really believe" that their "beliefs" create everything present with the same high-strung edginess, which is also consistent with methamphetamine, speaking of anorexia. It feels like the ultimate obsession with the mirror, rather than with this very abundant world, universe, and spirit. Not to mention each other. Engagement seems only to be in the cause of asserting this view, which cannot be let go of, at any cost.
The more I see discussion of it here, the more I'm convinced of how delusionary it is. Interesting that, eh? You would think prolonged exposure to it would make one more comfortable with it. Instead, it is reminding me of "pay no attention to that man behind the curtain," the more I see it, and my response to it becomes increasingly jaded.
Just my .02. Definitely of the gut.
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and it breeds a black-and-white orientation, that if challenged, reveals itself to be quite brittle indeed.
While I was composing this, you were in the process of leaving these posts:
Action] Re: Destiny, Fate, and Accidents by nichi Today at 04:08:45 PM
[Action] These are both beliefs: WE"RE STUFFED!!! & GLOBAL WARMING IS A LIE by Gunslinger Today at 04:02:47 PM
[Action] GLOBAL WARMING IS A BALDFACED LIE by Gunslinger
.... as if to demonstrate how brittle your position is!
When you must come on so strongly, you force your view ... that is not fluidity at all, Todd!
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While I was composing this, you were in the process of leaving these posts:
Action] Re: Destiny, Fate, and Accidents by nichi Today at 04:08:45 PM
[Action] These are both beliefs: WE"RE STUFFED!!! & GLOBAL WARMING IS A LIE by Gunslinger Today at 04:02:47 PM
[Action] GLOBAL WARMING IS A BALDFACED LIE by Gunslinger
.... as if to demonstrate how brittle your position is!
When you must come on so strongly, you force your view ... that is not fluidity at all, Todd!
I have not posted in this thread since 11:26. The 4:08 post is yours.
Is it not accurate to say that these are both beliefs?
WE"RE STUFFED!!!
&
GLOBAL WARMING IS A LIE
Is it not equally valid to make an emphasis on a subject line, so a graphic comparison can be made between it and another, equally inflammatory subject line?
If it is held not to be equally valid by one, and equally valid by another, who would be a bit brittle there?
Is it brittel to react so strongly, or is it more fluid to precisely calculate the exact effect one wishes to have in demonstrating a belief system and the brittleness and automatic responses it provokes?
Finally, some realities are being intentionally created here by indviduals, and some realities are being intentionally defaulted by others to be created for them.
These are just words on a screen. How people react to them is up to them, and that is precisely my point. Not only do we create our own reality, only we are responsible for it.
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Nope, for there is much more validity in claim 'We're stuffed!'.
It is based on someone's seeing.
Seeing does not verify the claim that global warming is not happening.
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These are just words on a screen. How people react to them is up to them, and that is precisely my point.
And this is what I mean by "amorality". We are responsible for our words, and the intent behind them.
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We create our own reality... to me, is restricted to a tonal tool for finding out 'we/I' don't.
A starting point in breaking down our own 'reality' which leaves us with a sense of control of things, best not to get too comfy in that control.. if one seeks to move further beyond. It all depends on the person or situation, if one is seeking to remain within the tonal, this can be an open door for them. If one seeks to move beyond that.. it locks the door.
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Nope, for there is much more validity in claim 'We're stuffed!'.
It is based on someone's seeing.
Seeing does not verify the claim that global warming is not happening.
Really? Who says? I have my own scientists you have yours. You may see, I may see, and our experiences are one offs, never to be repeated. Reactions to my provokations are illustrating exactly what I wanted to, the power of beliefs.
You asked me if I actually create physical reality? I just did, and you just let me create yours.
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And this is what I mean by "amorality". We are responsible for our words, and the intent behind them.
Morality is not absolute, or would you be agreeing with the Christian Fundies that they are? I am responsible for my words. I am not responsible for how you take them. You let me provoke your automatic responses, with words that were not directed personally, insulting, degrading, or lewd. Thus, you LET ME create your reality. And that is the ONLY way I can create your reality--with your consent.
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Really? Who says? I have my own scientists you have yours. You may see, I may see, and our experiences are one offs, never to be repeated. Reactions to my provokations are illustrating exactly what I wanted to, the power of beliefs.
You asked me if I actually create physical reality? I just did, and you just let me create yours.
Are you seer?
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Is it not accurate to say that these are both beliefs?
WE"RE STUFFED!!!
&
GLOBAL WARMING IS A LIE
No, the intent of the two are completely different. Michael came in, excited/disturbed about what he discovered through his explorations and seeing.
Yours is a response to Michael the person, on a whole different level.
Why would M "lie"? Why would I "lie"? There's another piece of the intent of your titles there --- as if someone is trying to pull something over on someone. Hence, there is a thread of provocativeness, if not hostility, inherent in your titles.
As for your position that it's a lie, Todd, all I can say is that you have bought the darker agenda. We went round and round about this before the Iraqi war -- I don't think we're going to see eye to eye on this. But the same stuff behind the us position on the Iraqi War is what is behind this idea in the culture right now, that "global warming is a lie". Some agree with you, like Rush Limbaugh, and various other right-wing spin doctors.
But understand, I don't come by my conclusion based on politics --- I base it on the hair on my arms and the color of the sky and something else I perceive, which is a long story for another time.
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We create our own reality... to me, is restricted to a tonal tool for finding out 'we/I' don't.
A starting point in breaking down our own 'reality' which leaves us with a sense of control of things, best not to get too comfy in that control.. if one seeks to move further beyond. It all depends on the person or situation, if one is seeking to remain within the tonal, this can be an open door for them. If one seeks to move beyond that.. it locks the door.
Having been on the edge of losing control, I know this. I also know that that is also an illusion. This whole experiment that we call our lives is for each person to experience and create what they want. It is okay whether or not they also learn that they do control the experiment, or not.
I am very tightly bound to the tonal. I know this. I accept that, even though I've scared the shit out of myself learning it. I would posit that holding tight to the tonal is only control of the tonal, and I intend to find out whether the same objective awareness, control and will can be exerted with equal intent in the Nagual.
If not, then Eric is correct. Or, it could be that anything other than our objective awareness (the tonal) is an entheogenic hallucination.
From my dreams, I gather that neither of the last two are True.
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Are you seer?
A pointless question rife with baited trap. It's irrelevant, and matters not.
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I don't care whether Michael, or you are Santa Clause said it. That it was said and the reaction to it's opposite said with equal energy, caused a reaction that illustrated my point, the power of beliefs and how we create our own reality, and that we are responsible for it.
You know, I don't know what Michael said as a result of his disturbance. If he's half the seer I think he is, it wasn't what any of us think it was that disturbed him.
You know what? I have brought no agenda from the Darker Side. There ain't no such thing, except in the belief systems of the people that hold to it's existance.
And, I've learned a thing or two since the Iraq war. THERE AIN'T NO RIGHT OR WRONG ON EITHER SIDE. It's just people learning that there's no Absolutes, and the power of beliefs and their consequences, especially the power of the belief in absolutes. People are losing their heads, women get the crap beat out of them for showing a wrist, boys are going to war to fight for opinions on both sides, to which they hold absolute belief.
When people start taking responsibilty for their own beliefs, for their own realities, wars and climate change will be unnecessary to be illustrating to us how foolish we are.
The only agenda involved is all of ours, to be understanding this.
Until then, I shall be speaking. Rush Limbaugh and Ahmadinejad notwithstanding.
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I am responsible for my words. I am not responsible for how you take them.
You are responsible for the Intent behind your words, which you have stated was to simply yank our chains. This is irresponsible and amoral in the sense that your words cease to have any integrity, when they are "used" simply for an effect, which is what you stated in the other thread.
I feel like I'm in the twilight zone, so I'm going to step back here.
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A pointless question rife with baited trap. It's irrelevant, and matters not.
Take a look at where you are, Todd, here in Soma, full of seers and folks learning how to see. It is most certainly relevant.
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What is your purpose of doing 'spiritual work'?
To expand my awareness.
What is it you are seeking by this argument?
What argument?
You focus on mental arguments and disregard things like seeing/perceiving world directly.
Is that so? Do I do this all the time? Even when I'm not here? Do you know what I see and what I don't? Do I have to tell you what I see? You think I'm provacative now, just imagine what would happen if I told everyone what I saw. For now, it's sufficient to just hold up a mirror.
That makes the whole discussion fairly...unreasonable. :)
Granted, it does to some. ;D
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You think I'm provacative now, just imagine what would happen if I told everyone what I saw.
Not provocative, unreasonable.
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You think I'm provacative now, just imagine what would happen if I told everyone what I saw.
The mind boggles!! :D
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I agree with this...
Morality is not absolute, or would you be agreeing with the Christian Fundies that they are? I am responsible for my words. I am not responsible for how you take them. You let me provoke your automatic responses, with words that were not directed personally, insulting, degrading, or lewd. Thus, you LET ME create your reality. And that is the ONLY way I can create your reality--with your consent.
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;D
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We are not here for mind-boggling games. We are here to grow and share our growth.
I must make a definition clear - when Todd declares that we create our own reality he does not mean that we do that but that we create "Our perception of the reality".
That is a huge difference. If I could create my reality I would have some million dollars on my bank account and talking to Dalai Lama on the phone.
We would never be allowed to create our reality because those circumstances is set from above and before. But we can be co-creaters of our reality and the key to that is to be beyond opinions and a screwed up perception that beliefs, fragmented parts and charges have on us in the beginning.
So please choose the words more carefully - otherwise we only fuel misunderstanding.
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Jan:
I acknowledge what you are saying. I appreciate it, as well. Thank you for expressing your ideas.
Now, if our minds are not boggled now and then, they become sedentary. :-) And they do not grow.
JAN: "I must make a definition clear - when Todd declares that we create our own reality he does not mean that we do that but that we create "Our perception of the reality"."
Jan, please make it clear that that is your definition, not mine. I realize that you are translating your thoughts and feelings through English, which might not be your native language. I appreciate that, greatly, for I have only one language. I also want you to know, and also others here, that I choose my words with the utmost care, and in the most impeccable way that I can. To be precise, I mean exactly what I say, within my limitations. I may address elsewhere the mechanics of reality creation, but here let me say that we DO create reality, and we do so through the projection and reception of energy through perception. This is an extremely foreign conception, I know. Because it is so different, it may be difficult for those mechanically minded to agree that we create our own reality. But, I mean exactly what I said, WE CREATE OUR REALITY.
If we get out of our own way, Jan, it won't be long before we do win a million dollars and the Dalai LLama calls US, humurously speaking.
It does rankle me a bit when I read that "we would never be allowed to create our reality". I'm taking your words literally as an accurate expression of what you mean. By whom would this allowance be granted? By what right? By what power? I didn't grant this right or power to any thing or energy outside or foreign to me. I have no other gods before me. In this physical reality I was born into, there are certain assumptions like governments and parents and other adults that have putative power to allow me. That also was created by me, for my purposes and intent. (A very difficult concept to understand, also.) I appreciate where you are coming from, and why. However, it is not necessary to believe that there is a power that is greater than us.
Opinions are like noses, Jan. Everybody's got one. Yours are due the same credit as mine, and this is as plain as the one on your face. From this point on, it can be understood that misunderstanding is our own creaton. It may not be.
Thanks,
Todd
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I must make a definition clear - when Todd declares that we create our own reality he does not mean that we do that but that we create "Our perception of the reality".
If I understand Todd accurately, he means that we create the whole kit'n'kaboodle, not only our perception of it. (Right, Todd?)
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Whenever I get into relative concepts like love, reality, honor, honesty, energy ...... whatever, and I am relating to others these things which are within my inventory, I always try to remember not to use words like, "we", "always", "never", etc.
And do you all know why? Because I would leaving the bindings of my definition of "impeccable words". I, personally, cannot because such terms have just too many significances, inferences and potential meanings. I know I used "always" in the first sentence of this post because I was using it in the first person and I followed it with the word "try". I did this on purpose, as I am sure most of you know. I always attempt to do this because my words are imperic in use.
If I didn't, in my less-than-humble opinion, I would think myself a little on the immature side with regards to my word usage.
Respectfully, tom
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If I understand Todd accurately, he means that we create the whole kit'n'kaboodle, not only our perception of it. (Right, Todd?)
In a nutshell, yes. Taking Jan's English usage literally, he says I mean "Our perception of THE Reality." It's understood, I think, that we create our perception. I would posit that perception creates our reality. There is no THE Reality. Reality exists. There is no THING called reality. Reality is action. Reality is the collection of all actions in All That Is. And All That Is is always and eternally in a state of becoming. Hence, reality is always and eternally in a state of becoming. Now, these words are drastically insufficient. As Eric is wont to remind me, the distance between words and understanding is the chasm between knowledge and imagination.
My physical reality is the set of actions that I configure out of energy with my perception, filtered through my beliefs and opinions and some other actions. Our reality is the set of actions that we configure out of energy with our perceptions, filtered through our beliefs and opinions and some other actions. Again, some imagination is required here beyond my words to see my meaning and to have some understanding.
I won't get into how non-physical reality is created. I'm not there in my understanding and awareness, and besides, I don't think words can begin to trigger enough imagination.
I hope that clarifies, some.
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I would posit that perception creates our reality.
It is an interesting phenomena that as our perceptions change, so does our reality.
I wonder at times if there is a 'base' reality (or a 'the' reality) - reality is whatever is, the moment s ever now, as such, all realities exist, to me as some sort of angle on 'the' reality, that 'base' reality of what is.
Perhaps we need new words to be able to exchange ideas without coming up against locked meanings? Many paths do have these new words - unfortunately, often there is a reverting to the more common usage and communication and connectivity is lost.
I too see reality as a state of becoming - or rather I would say the interplay between the state of becoming and the state of being is an eternal cycle of motion. All there is, is motion, movement, substance taking form and dissolving form, awareness moving through rather like those zoom pictures as our attention is taken up by one point within the picture, and then another - reality is formed, a whole string of realities.
One of the interesting things I found about words, and hence my many years of being stuck in words, was that when I first started studying Kabbalah, I was fascinated by the translations in many instances between the Hebrew and the English. To me the Hebrew had a distinctly different understanding than its surface translation. And not only the translation, but also the approach - was difficult approachng it from both the western esoteric tradition and the Judaic.
When I discovered the energy behind the words, I could finally put my obsession with the 'right' words, and the 'right' approach, to rest - well.. a sort of slumber anyway! :)
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Why does this have to be personal, Eric?
Anyway:
"the distance between words and understanding is the chasm between knowledge and imagination."
That is incorrect - words may or may not reflect individual's understanding of something. But they always reflect, they are not understanding. Besides, there are no words for reflecting very many perceivable things.
The distance between my words and people's understanding of them is sometimes a chasm of their own creation.
And now the question worth your life: what does it take to change your reality? Change perception? How?
Reconfigure the force patterns of energy, and project them through the force patterns of time in our space with our perception. That's how, literally speaking. *smiles*
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That does not work, Todd.
There are no shortcuts, no manipulation of energy substitutes changing self.
Want Enlightenment? Then Change Your Perception
http://krisraphael.com/2005/11/14/want_enlightenment_then_change_your_perc_1/
The Toltec Path gives us three Masteries, the Mastery of Awareness, the
Mastery of Transformation and the Mastery of Intent. In the Mastery of
Awareness we become aware of something, that when brought into
awareness, seems so obvious we may surprise ourselves that we missed
it. This something is:
Our perception determines our experience
This is an essential realization on a spiritual path, and can assist us
immensely in the living of life - our quality of life. If we wish to
have better experiences, we need to change our perception. If we wish
to experience All-That-Is, or the Nagual, we must change our
perception.
The fact that our perception is very limited is basic to Toltec
teachings. When we thoroughly work the Mastery of Awareness, we come to
understand that the knowledge we have acquired growing up creates a
world that is not real. We begin to understand that the world we
perceive is nothing but the result of the content of our knowledge and
our beliefs. How we perceive the world is determined by our
domestication.
Let me give a real life example of how our perception is determined by
our knowledge, or what Toltecs call, our inventory.
When I was a graduate student I was living in Japan studying cultural
anthropology. For part-time work I translated manuals from Japanese
into English. On one occasion I was translating a manual that said in
Japanese, “To start the machine push the ‘aoi’ button.” Because I
didn’t actually have the physical machine in front of me I didn’t know
how to translate the Japanese word ‘aoi.’ The word ‘aoi’ in
Japanese can mean either blue or green.
Therefore, a native Japanese speaker will point to a ‘blue’ sky and
say it is AOI. They will then point to a ‘green’ leaf and say it is
the same color - AOI. Due to their knowledge and conditioning, they
actually PERCEIVE the sky and the leaf as the same color.
This can be understood when we look at a color spectrum. The colors
blue and green are right next to each other on the spectrum. It so
happens that most languages of the west divide the spectrum of blue and
green into two colors. In truth, there are an infinite number of color
frequencies within the range of blue and green. We just happen to
divide the range into two basic colors and this is what we see.
Other cultures divide the color spectrum up differently. (It should be
noted that modern Japanese now has more words for colors such as
‘midori’ for green and ‘buruu’ equivalent to the English word
‘blue’ and so on.)
When studying different cultures, Anthropologists found that different
cultures have a different number of words for colors. Some cultures had
five words for different colors, others had as few as four or even
three words. What was even more significant, however, was that in some
traditional cultures, if there were only three words for colors, they
would only see three different colors! Their language “colored” their
perception. Their perception determined their experience of color. They
only experienced three colors.
A baby doesn’t see blue or green until he is taught the words that
define the colors. He sees the total color spectrum from infrared to
ultraviolet as different “shades” of just ONE color. The words we are
taught define the boundaries of the bundles of frequencies we perceive.
When we are taught the word blue we learn a concept called blue. The
concept defines a particular range of frequencies within the color
spectrum, which is bound by the concept blue. When a color frequency
falls within that range we call it blue. As the baby grows into a child
and learns to speak, it no longer sees ONE color with different shades.
It sees SEVERAL distinct colors defined by the vocabulary it has
learned. It sees blue, green, red and so on. This is an example of how
our language defines what we perceive.
The same is true of sounds. A native Japanese speaker does not hear the
difference between an “l” sound and an “r” sound. Unless they study
English they perceive them as the same sound. A native English speaker
hears two distinct sounds because that is what he or she was taught. To
the English speaker, the “p” in “pit” sounds the same as the “p” in
“spit.” However, to the Chinese speaker, these two “p” sounds are as
distinctive as “l” and “r” are to the English speaker.
There is no right or wrong in this. It is just what we have learned. In
actuality, there are an infinite number of sound frequencies between
“l” and “r.” But an English speaker hears just two. There are an
infinite number of color frequencies in the color range bound by the
word “yellow.” But the English speaker perceives everything within the
“yellow” range as “yellow.” We may have a few words for different
shades of “yellow,” but we still perceive them as a shade of “yellow.”
The average man or woman believes they know reality. They act and react
according to what they believe they know. But what they know is the
past. It is just one concept added to a concept added to a concept, a
belief added to another belief in their inventory. Their inventory just
grows horizontality. It has no depth. When we “see” and have
knowingness it comes from another plane. It does not come from the
horizontal plane of our knowledge inventory.
As the above examples illustrate, WHAT WE PERCEIVE is due in large part
upon what we have learned. With all of our conditioning and learning,
by the time they are adults, the average person has little ability to
perceive WHAT IS. This is why Toltecs say that as long as you have
inventory (knowledge), you cannot perceive the Nagual.
A pre-requisite for a true spiritual path is to first become aware of
our beliefs (inventory), and then be willing to let them go. Until we
eliminate our beliefs we can never perceive reality for what it is.
Until we clear out our inventory, we will never know self, as we cannot
see self as it is.
If we are unable to know self, we are unable to transform self and our
lives in alignment to higher spiritual principles. We will continue
with failed relationships, lack and difficulties in life.
To transform something we must first see it for what it is without
avoidance and denial. We must be clear enough and free enough from our
beliefs and stale knowledge to see things as they are.
In the Mastery of Awareness we stalk different aspects of ourselves.
Stalking perception is a powerful exercise. When we stalk our
perception we bring into awareness why we perceive things the way we
do. This can be a basic thing like why we see the colors we do or why
we hear the sounds we do. More important, however, is to stalk the way
we think, feel, act and react. Do we perceive something as wrong or
right because of beliefs we have been taught? Do we have unresolved
emotional issues that cause us to feel nervous around our boss?
Unresolved emotional issues can dramatically throw our perception off.
For example, say our boss hasn’t called us into his office for a long
time and we begin to perceive that he doesn’t appreciate or like our
work. However if someone were to ask our boss why he hasn’t called us
into his office for a while, he may say it is because he trusts us to
do our job without a lot of supervision. We have misperceived his
actions. Why? Perhaps we have unresolved emotional issues about
receiving approval from our parents or those in authority positions.
This emotional issue perverts our perception. In this example it causes
us to misperceive our boss’s actions.
As we stalk our perception we will find many ways in which it is
determined by our domestication, our education, our language, our
beliefs, and our emotional wounding. We will also begin to see how our
perception actually determines our experience. In the above example we
may be experiencing insecurity at work due to our misperception of our
boss’s actions.
Toltecs of ancient times discovered the importance of stalking
perception. Through the Mastery of Awareness we come to realize that
the world that we thought we knew, doesn’t really exist at all. We see
it as just a dream - a dream consisting of our conditioned assumptions
about the world, and our agreements with others in the world. With this
new perception comes the freedom to enter a new dream, the dream of
heaven.
Want enlightenment? Change your perception. Want to change your
perception? Clean, clear, heal and strengthen self. Fully engage your
awareness, make no assumptions, and throw your knowledge and beliefs
out the door. See self and the world with the beginner’s mind.
Love and Light,
Kristopher
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I may address elsewhere the mechanics of reality creation, but here let me say that we DO create reality, and we do so through the projection and reception of energy through perception. This is an extremely foreign conception, I know. Because it is so different, it may be difficult for those mechanically minded to agree that we create our own reality. But, I mean exactly what I said, WE CREATE OUR REALITY.
If you believe that, then you are in the wrong perception.
It does rankle me a bit when I read that "we would never be allowed to create our reality". I'm taking your words literally as an accurate expression of what you mean. By whom would this allowance be granted? By what right? By what power? I didn't grant this right or power to any thing or energy outside or foreign to me.
"We" in terms of the human beings we are. We are not allowed to create our reality, how provocative this ever may sound, it is the truth. Becuse if we should create our own reality then we would very likely miss the opportunity for growth.
"Whom" is your Dreamer or Soul.
"By what" is the birthright of your divine self.
By "What power" is the usual one.
This is not foreign to you, in fact this is the essence of you.
However, it is not necessary to believe that there is a power that is greater than us.
Then experience it.
jm
.~
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Let us go back to the original post of Baba Josh.
1)
” These circumstances and happenings of life that are unrelated to manifestations of 'being-willpower' Gurdjieff has called 'accidents'. These happenings are not the result of uninterupted effort on one's part, and therefore they are essentially results of the world in action (at the level of society of man). The world pushes us, we move a little bit, it pushes a little more, we move a little more. We cannot say that it is our intent or actual effort that has placed us in the situations we find ourselves. We are only reacting to outside circumstance and basically floating like a leaf on the wind.”
That is the state of the beginner described where you (hm?) and most people are.
Unlees of course you have completed at least one cycle of growth which may transform your initial relatively poor situation into something with more autonomy. It is about the ability to manifest - in Tonal. (Real cash, and meetings with Dalai Lama).
2)
“So many events at our level of life never reach past the 3rd stage of manifestation. This is how cycles are created. The manifestation begins and reaches a certain point where it can no longer be carried by the intial momentum; at that point a certain energy must be applied or the manifestation will cease.”
This leads us to the next step:
3)
Man could become accustomed to and perhaps even learn to somehow cooperate with these forces and even bypass many of the laws that we fall under, except for the fact that he believes he already has. He believes he can 'do'. He believes he has 'will'. He believes he 'knows'. He believes he has 'understanding'. Man has none of these qualities and yet it is his unacceptance of this simple fact which will keep him from ever acquiring them - even though they are our birthright as the beings that we are. The only problem is that they are not provided by nature, we must earn them by our own hard work and conscious effort.
At least an opening, we believe, like you do, that we have these qualities, yet to manifest - but the hope is that they can be ours, we can earn them through hard work.
4)
Our Fate is the linking force that we will use to connect with our Destiny. Fate must be created by us by our own effort.
There is a energy rule that can't be passed without done the exam so to speak. Gurdijeff was sometimes "accused" to trying to fool the system. Only he could know how to even try to fool it. We others have no idea how to do such "fooling" and have to rely on our own steps and sound choices.
5a)
This is where creating our Fate comes down to our presence in the moment. Whatever action we take, no matter how tiny and insignificant it may seem - it actually affects everything that exists, it all adds up.
It is in that position we want to be.
5b)
If your actions are always dragging you here and there, up and down, with no sustained momentum in any conscious direction, then you will continue to be at whims of circumstance until you make the effort to steer yourself in some way
But it is in this position most of us live the main part of our lives.
Now Todd, a simple question - what work have you done, what transformations and energy transmutations have you done to claim that you create your reality? And do you still claim that everyone DO create their reality?
Just wondering because it has some implications for what we shall "discuss".
jm
~.
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Jahn:
With all due respect, I have an offer to make to you:
Let's each refrain in the future from making assumptions about what the other has done, how far down the rabbit hole the other has gone, what they have or have not created, how far the other has progressed? Okay? Deal?
Second, I accept, as they are, your opinions about me, and my beliefs, my perception, and me. However, I request your respect in the future, if not your acceptance (non-judgment). Repeated statements like this, "If you believe that, then you are in the wrong perception," are not conducive to further discussion with me. While I accept your opinion on this, it is not absolute, and whether I am wrong or not is not any of your business, really. What's right for you is not necessarily right for me. My acceptance, however, is not synonymous with agreeing to your opinions, nor tolerating them when they are judgmental of me, or make unwarranted assumptions about me.
For example, it doesn't matter whether you accept or agree to the idea that you creaate your own reality. My purpose here is to express myself and my ideas, test them out here. If you don't accept or agree, what's it to me? It truely matters not.
Third, since I have no control over creating your reality, your acceptance, or your agreement, what good would it do, how effective would it be, how impeccable would it be, for me to offer you proof of how I create my own reality? How much proof would it take to convince you? I submit it would be a waste of energy to even try. Further, it is entirely unnecessary. The proof is as clear as the nose on your face. But I can't make you notice it. Nor is it my concern. I care, and that's why I'm here. But, I can't force you to see it. Your choice.
Whatever you want to discuss, that's fine with me. I choose whether to continue to participate, and so do you.
-
"I leave you all in a fine mess"
- Gurdjieff
(http://www.realization.org/art/beelzebubs_tales.jpg)
Heh, Ive been out the past few days and it seems this thread has become contentious! Im not going to join in on this but I did want to make a comment about the 4th way style of teachings and how they relate to the public at large. Namely: they dont - in any way whatsoever. In fact they were never intended to be repeated outside of a school or group setting, preferably remaining within The Institute for the Harmonius Development of Man. However as Gurdjieff neared his final years and begrudgingly admitted to himself that he had not achieved his aim of creating such a school in lasting form, decided to write down his knowledge in the form of the series 'All and Everything'. This was not presented in the way of school practices, but rather general knowledge and other bits and peices which could help someone on their 'objective path' or in forming their own group themselves. And even this series of books remained unfinished as well.
A few years ago I realized that it is generally impossible to relay 4th way style teachings to people who are unfamiliar with them. It takes substantial background education on the subject to begin to approach understanding the vast lexicon of practices and theories and philosophies. Since then I have moved away from referring to such things except in an offhand way, and even then only for the benefit of those who are familiar.
I was curious as to how such a "dedicated" lecture on the subject might be recieved by this group as a whole. The result was predictable, although of course I wouldnt have tried this experiment if I thought it was the only one possible.
If someone is interested in learning about such groups as they were in the beginning of G's teachings, I would suggest 'In Search of the Miraculous'. It was by far Ouspensky's most important contribution to the movement, as it was basically a straight transcription of meetings given by G himself. Later on, O would come to resent G in some ways, and left the original group deciding to start his own with G's teachings. This of course failed within a few years. O eventually became obsessed with his failure and lived out his remaining years as a bitter, delusioned alchoholic. On this note I cannot reccomend the book "The Fourth Way" which is arguably the most read book on the topic, as it was transcriptions of meetings given by O in his new group, and on topics which were not of his design and often misunderstood.
(http://www.heall.com/images/in_search_of_the_miraculous_2.gif)
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I was interested of Gurdijeff's material once, but they were not available, maybe in Russian but i'm not that good in Russian. It really seemed interesting and about the real thing... or something.
But now i'm not interested of any systems or materials at all. I rather try to concentrate on what i perceive myself. If that's not much or things arent as clear as i would like them to be, then i just relax and accept it, everything comes when it's time for it. I just fallow my intuition, dreams and signs :)
-
My purpose here is to express myself and my ideas, test them out here.
Unfortunately Todd, this is the nub of the problem. You thought when you came here that this is a new place to do what you have done on other forums, as you describe above, and continue to see this place and your purpose here, in the same way.
This is not like other forums. This is a school for people to work on themselves - it is not a place to debate ideas. Sure we entertain ourselves, and float ideas about which we question, but that is secondary.
Those here who are gaining value from this space, present their personal lives, and talk of how they are struggling to apply the principles and resources from here and elsewhere IN THEIR DAILY LIVES.
You never talk about your personal life, you only hide behind mental games. Instead of trying to 'reflect' back other people's mental state as you perceive it, or run around pretending nothing matters to you, and that the everything is someones personal illusion - playing James Bond with the mind, what I want to see you do, and anyone else for that matter, is to talk about how you are trying to test out your ideas in your daily struggle:
What about your relationships - how are you succeeding with creating your own reality with your parents, your lovers or lack of them, your relationships in your work?
What about your health - that's always a good one, have you got any health problems where you have succeeded in creating health so you no longer need to use the doctors favourite tool, their pills? or have you had serious problems with your body where you are struggling to prove and test your theories?
What about your work - are you doing what you love? Are you struggling with boredom or frustration, and wish you could be doing something more meaningful or closer to your life's purpose?
Just some examples Todd, what we ask for here is to share how we struggle in our personal life to be on the path we profess. This is not special to you - everyone here is in the same position, and those who are willing to talk as real humans with their joys and problems, and how they are trying to apply their spirit in those situations - they are gaining.
The others ... we are waiting, as we are with you. But in your case, you are making vague claims, and I think it is only fair that you now pull down your shield, and show us just who you are behind your veil. Show us the real Todd, don't be concerned - everyone here is hurting in some way.
m
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What about your relationships - how are you succeeding with creating your own reality with your parents, your lovers or lack of them, your relationships in your work?
Hmm, lovers... that's an interesting area... ;D
Maybe i will make a thread about that.
-
Jahn:
With all due respect, I have an offer to make to you:
I am afraid any offer is rejected.
I gave you some answers and asked some questions.
Until you answer or comment there is nothing to discuss, You carry a mental ghost that slow your pace.
Sorry, that's it.
. .