Soma

Tools of the Path => Action [Public] => Topic started by: Michael on January 03, 2008, 11:42:24 PM

Title: US Elections 2008
Post by: Michael on January 03, 2008, 11:42:24 PM
First, let me say that the whole world is watching. What happens in the US this year is of such critical importance to everyone else in the world, that some commentators have suggested we should all be voting.

But I have to confess, I don't understand.

Could someone inform me as to what is this Iowa thing? I know it's important, along with the subsequent states, but I don't get how this works.

Now in Aus, who gets to the top of a political party's pole, is a vote by the elected members of that party. In one party only (which now longer exists), the members of the party vote for who will lead them, well almost.

So what I gather is that what is being decided now is who will lead the party in the real election later in the year. But who can vote now? Can anyone vote for Hillery or whoever? Or can only people who are signed up members of the Democrats, or Republicans etc vote for their leader?

I can't understand how anyone can vote for who will be the leader of a political party - is this really the case?

Now I have heard this whole thing in the US is mind-bogglingly complex and many say stupid. I don't want a long spiel on it. But could someone just enlighten me as to who is allowed to vote (and why, if it's not too long).
Title: Re: US Elections 2007
Post by: nichi on January 04, 2008, 12:02:39 AM
Quote
During presidential election years, the caucuses are the first step toward picking delegates to national conventions where the parties pick their candidate for the presidency.

http://www.iowacaucus.com/

Then, at the respective National Conventions of each party --
Members of the Democratic Party vote for who their candidate will be.
Members of the Republican Party vote for who their candidate will be.

When it comes to the actual election, "Registered Voters" vote for whomever they please. At that juncture, for example, a member of the Democratic Party is not "obliged" to vote for the Democratic candidate.

Hypothetically based on whom the popular vote elected, the "Electoral College" then puts in their votes.  Some say that here is where things go askew.

Yes, I wish the world could vote too! 
Title: Re: US Elections 2007
Post by: Michael on January 04, 2008, 12:05:59 AM
OK, so who is voting in Iowa?
Title: Re: US Elections 2007
Post by: nichi on January 04, 2008, 12:07:39 AM
Party-members.
Those who have made it to Iowa, that is.
As for further weeding out at that point, I don't know the mechanics there in Iowa. There may be another elitist demarcation at that point, I'm not sure.

All I know is, dear god, pray that Huckabee won't make it into the ring. You should see his advertisement --- this subliminal panning around the Oval Office, with him at the center of a Cross. Shivers down the spine.
Title: Re: US Elections 2007
Post by: Michael on January 04, 2008, 12:21:20 AM
i saw a picture of Huckabee today, that was enough - i have been trying to understand where that name fits in - I thought it was a movie.

so you say, that only party members vote in Iowa. But they have been going door-to-door. Does this mean there are a lot of people who are signed up members of the parties? In Aus there are very very few people who actually 'join' a political party. You have to be a bit weird to do that.
Title: Re: US Elections 2007
Post by: nichi on January 04, 2008, 12:33:50 AM
There is a movie, "I Heart Huckabee". Very offbeat and unconnected to Mr. Huckabee, so far as I know.

The residents of Iowa are the most likely to make it to the Caucus... hence the door-to-door.   The Press follows the goings-on at the Caucus very closely --- it's viewed as grass-roots.

But is it really grass-roots? Needless to say, campaigning is a function of money -- lots of it.

When one registers to vote in the US, one has to declare a party.... The obligation ends there, really, except that much red tape is thereby created. There are other parties besides the 2: the Independent and the Libertarian are the ones we hear about the most.   

When one registers to vote, one is required to do jury-duty if one's name is pulled. One's name gets on all these lists, undesirably so. In my opinion, these things are why this country does not have 100% voter registration.
Title: Re: US Elections 2007
Post by: Michael on January 04, 2008, 12:46:59 AM
so you are saying that when a person registers to vote - by which I mean they can vote in the final ellection (ie, if they are not registered they can't vote) - they have to specify a party as their preference? That's a bit weird.

Then according to what party they nominated, they are able to vote in these Caucus things - which i assume occur in every state.  Or can they vote in more than one party's scene?

So, registered voters, get to vote first in this round, which elects people to go to the College thing, where the elected people then vote for their leaders? But then how come the leaders are so concerned now? I don't get it. Are the voters now also specifying who they want as the final leader, or do the elected delegates pre-align themselves with a leader of their choice?

It's very hard to grasp.
Title: Re: US Elections 2007
Post by: nichi on January 04, 2008, 12:53:25 AM
When I fill out my voter registration card, I have to check a box stating whether I'm Democrat, Republican, and I can't remember at the moment what other party is on that card.

If I am a declared Democrat, I can't go vote at the Republican convention. I've never been involved at any of the conventions/caucuses, so I'm out of my area a bit to answer this uncertainty: is it enough to just have checked the box, or does one need to have made dues or somesuch? ~Don't know the answer there.

But if I'm a declared Democrat, if I can negotiate the voting booth, I am not obliged to then vote Democrat.

You're right: it's thick stuff, very complicated indeed.
Title: Re: US Elections 2007
Post by: nichi on January 04, 2008, 12:56:05 AM
They're concerned about the Iowa Caucus because it's understood that the winners at the Caucus are typically the candidates-to-be, at the Conventions.

Caucus -->> Convention -->> Election
Title: Re: US Elections 2007
Post by: Jennifer- on January 04, 2008, 01:01:39 AM
Im of no help to this thread as my knowledge of politics and american government is not very keen.

Ive only registered to vote once in my whole life (this needs to be done at each new location of living) but the options I were given also included 'independent' 
Title: Re: US Elections 2007
Post by: nichi on January 04, 2008, 01:13:55 AM
Im of no help to this thread as my knowledge of politics and american government is not very keen.

Ive only registered to vote once in my whole life (this needs to be done at each new location of living) but the options I were given also included 'independent' 

That's another good point, Jen.

As one moves from town to town, one has to re-register all over again. That's another thing which throws a wrench into the works.

It's technically "against the law" to duck jury duty. If I know, for example, that I'm going to be in California for large chunks of time, it does not behoove me to have that possibility hanging over my head, that I've been called in to jury-duty in my town of Norfolk.

Of course, you can eventually get the picture here ... that they have made voter registration a complicated thing.  Personally, I don't think that's an accident.
Title: Re: US Elections 2007
Post by: TIOTIT on January 04, 2008, 01:29:32 AM
I'll post this again because Huckabees name
came up

've seen a couple of stories out of the States in the last week
about  gunmen always referred to as "shooters" going on a
rampage through shopping malls,churches and schools.
Then I saw this story about a presidential candidate,who likes
guns ....and religion...the best mix....I wonder if the "shooters"
feel like the angels help them to?...mass psychosis....

But what about angels? As I've noted previously and elsewhere, Huckabee gave a rather intriguing speech at the NRA in September, during which he deftly merged his heartfelt evangelical beliefs with his deep passion for gun rights and hunting. He recalled the time he was in an antelope hunting contest in Wyoming. After several hours of stalking prey on a miserably cold, windy and snowy day, Huckabee had his chance. An antelope was 250 yards away, but right at the edge of his range as a "Shooter". Then a miracle happened....praise the lord!!!!

I decided that one way or the other, this hunt is about to be over, because I can't stand any more of this cold. And somehow, by the grace of God, when I squeezed the trigger, my Weatherby .300 Mag, which has got to be the greatest gun, I think, ever made in the form of a rifle -- for my sake in hunting, I've never squeezed the trigger and not gotten something -- did its work, and somehow the angels took that bullet and went right to the antelope, and my hunt was over in a wonderful way.

Thanks to those angels, that elk was dead.
Title: Re: US Elections 2007
Post by: nichi on January 04, 2008, 01:31:13 AM
*shudder*
Title: Re: US Elections 2007
Post by: erik on January 04, 2008, 01:32:04 AM
We are given a free will, aren't we?
Title: Re: US Elections 2007
Post by: TIOTIT on January 04, 2008, 12:14:46 PM
?????
Title: Re: US Elections 2007
Post by: erik on January 04, 2008, 08:39:57 PM
?????

TIO, I was only referring to a fact that we are granted a free will to an extent that if we decide to be lunatics, that wish will be granted and we can spend a whole life in that quality. Nobody can do anything about it. The quotation you presented only shows that Bush may in some years look like a rather moderate US president and there is nothing we can do about it.

Yet the whole world is depending on how the US will do on its tremendous learning curve.
Title: Re: US Elections 2007
Post by: Michael on January 04, 2008, 11:02:38 PM
Iowa: Obama, Huckabee win.

I'll give you my quick take on this.

Huckabee - enough said there, let's hope he falls away.

Obama. I've heard him speak, and I know a little of his views. My feeling is that I would be extatic if he won the Presidency... and lived.

I am under no illusions of the political forces in US and their ruthlessness. To be honest, and I hate to say it, but I can't see it happening. America may just be ready for a woman president, but a black man?

So the Democrats have basically dumped Hillery, and I know it's not over. But frankly, they are fools. In my remote view, she is the only one with a chance.

What does this mean (and I hope I'm wrong)? They, the Democrats, are off with the fairies. I can not see it working, and what's that mean - Republicans are delivered a huge boost, on a plate.

This outcome is for me extremely bad news. I so wish Obama would live to re-direct the US. But I am a realist, and after hearing what happened to Kennedy and his attempts to re-direct the US... it is depressing.

They are asking the whole of America to vote for a black man for President! For god's sake, I know things are not as bad as they were - or are they?

I will pray that the people of that land put behind them their hatreds. But more, that they see the reality in their own land.

Our success here in Aus with Kevin - he is extremely astute. He knew his enemy precisely, and he played it with such balance and skill. I am saying he knew the idiocy of Australians, and he geared his whole strategy to that idiocy. He won, because he presented himself within the stupidity of the voters, as just like Howard, but with a touch of newness. Obama is not a 'touch' of newness.

It will be a long year.
Title: Re: US Elections 2007
Post by: Jahn on January 04, 2008, 11:09:59 PM
We are given a free will, aren't we?

Yes of course. You are only supposed to move from A to B in this life but you can freely chose which way to go. I started by going to D and then F while I hit G and E, kind of lost sight of B - where in the hell could it be?
Title: Re: US Elections 2007
Post by: erik on January 04, 2008, 11:11:20 PM
Well said! :)
Title: Re: US Elections 2007
Post by: Angela on January 19, 2008, 06:35:57 PM
The candidates are caucusing in Nevada on Saturday...I found this helpful regarding caucusing:

http://lasvegasnow.com/Global/story.asp?S=7742366&nav=menu102_2

It's like a big Pep Rally/Voting "Mosh" ... I may go check it out ;)
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Michael on January 23, 2008, 09:25:36 PM
Thanks for that Seraf

Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Michael on January 23, 2008, 09:28:55 PM
Am I to understand that there are US citizens here how are too lazy to register to vote?

No wonder the Republicans are laughing all the way to the bank. Even aware people don't care.
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Angela on January 24, 2008, 03:08:20 AM
Am I to understand that there are US citizens here how are too lazy to register to vote?

No wonder the Republicans are laughing all the way to the bank. Even aware people don't care.

Yes, there are many "lazy", or who have the attitude that the elections are so "corrupt" that their vote does not matter.

I disagree with this attitude...twenty-three years ago I decide that I wanted a woman president(of course that attitude was looked down upon in our male dominated society),  I didn't care which party, my intent was very precise..."woman"...so everytime I voted over the years, I would vote for women, or minorities ... and look!  My patience has paid off.  There was so much excitement here in Las Vegas!  More than anyone has ever seen for an upcoming election.  You know what I enjoy so much, is to see the younger generations getting involved...I guess us middle-agers are doing our job fairly well ;)
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Angela on January 24, 2008, 04:31:17 AM
Yes, there are many "lazy", or who have the attitude that the elections are so "corrupt" that their vote does not matter.

On the flip side of the coin, corruption Is prevalent... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuBo4E77ZXo
I've been watching and listening to this "World Government" scheme for a few years now.  Will a woman president change this...or fall in with the "Men behind the curtain"?

The question would be "what, if anything, are we going to do about it?"

Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Michael on January 24, 2008, 08:03:16 AM
we need to be very careful of attitudes spread about, that the government is against us, the people. Be it corruption or just power self-interest.

These ideas are purposely pushed by equally self-interested groups who seek to weaken the position of the government in our minds - they don't want what is best for the people, they want the government to not look too deeply at what they are up to.

the government is the people's tool against the most powerful of un-scrutinised forces who apply all their power for their own narrow interest, not the people's or the nation's interest.

the government is our champion - it's the only protection we have, and many fought with their lives to secure this benefit for us all.

if the government is corrupt or out of touch, we do have a remedy. if the military or industrial complexes are corrupt or actively screwing us, there is almost nothing we can do - except ask the government to act.

the idea that the government is somehow our enemy is a poison for the mind, by those who seek to benefit by such a lie. if the government is wrong, then it has to be fixed, and there are means, even if these take a long time - the government in democratic countries belongs to the people.

bad government is a case for repair, not disposal or despair. there are mechanisms, built into every democratic governance system - support those who seek to use those mechanisms to bring justice, but always know, we are dealing with humans - don't expect perfection.

and don't expect the government to make you happy. or blame it for your unhappiness.
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Angela on January 24, 2008, 05:02:56 PM

I don't expect the government, or anyone else for that matter, to "make me happy".  I DO expect  integrity and honesty in the people that govern my country.  I've worked for major corporations that act like "mini goverments"(staunch right wing republicans, who support our current party) and through each level of power you'll find corruption.  And I'm not talking about stealing pens or post-it notes and taking them home.  I'm talking about corporation who gobble up small businesses and then fire the best qualified employees because they "make too much money"...first they "pick your mind" to find out what you know...you teach them what you know and then...the most talented go first, only to be replaced with brainwashed robots who have no life so they work day and night for whatever pay they can get.  It's truly a reflection of our grand ol' US of A.  Maybe they should change USA to AT&T...ha! 

The rich get richer and the poor get poorer.  They talk of how "we're one big family"...until the day that you actually Question what they're doing...oh, but don't make any waves, because you'll be "out".  You just "don't fit anymore".  Believe me,  I know many people who have worked for the "government".

At a time in my life, I was "out".  I was fired after 15 years (built up tenor within two company buy-outs).    I didn't understand what happened at the time, as I was only standing up for myself and other "single mothers" in the group.  But now looking back, I understand what this company did and why ...and I realized shortly after that it was the best thing that ever happened to me.  I truly believe I manifested my own demise, only to come out stronger.   

So now I compete against them.  It's quite fun actually.  A small company competing against a $2 Billion corporation.  They're so full of procedures and red tape, they never knew what hit them.  And I'm doing it based on my Talent and Integrity.

Now I look for change that will balance the scales and give each person a voice.  One person Can make a difference.  The optimist in me will say, all you who are Americans, get your asses out there and vote!  There is an Energy snowballing...something's going to blow...I can feel it ;)
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Jahn on January 24, 2008, 07:20:15 PM
At a time in my life, I was "out".  I was fired after 15 years (built up tenor within two company buy-outs).    I didn't understand what happened at the time, as I was only standing up for myself and other "single mothers" in the group.  But now looking back, I understand what this company did and why ...and I realized shortly after that it was the best thing that ever happened to me.  I truly believe I manifested my own demise, only to come out stronger.   

Great story. Reminds me about that warriors use everything in their tonal to advance on their path. But I also know how difficult it is when one is in the middle of such crisis.

So now I compete against them.  It's quite fun actually.  A small company competing against a $2 Billion corporation.  They're so full of procedures and red tape, they never knew what hit them.  And I'm doing it based on my Talent and Integrity.

   :)
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Jahn on January 24, 2008, 07:33:46 PM

the idea that the government is somehow our enemy is a poison for the mind, by those who seek to benefit by such a lie. if the government is wrong, then it has to be fixed, and there are means, even if these take a long time - the government in democratic countries belongs to the people.

It is an old saying, probably many hundred years old that goes:

"The people has the leader that it deserves. "

In energy terms that statement sounds quite right. The leaders are a sort of reflection of the people. Now Serafina tells us that many corporations are corrupt "through each level of power you'll find corruption." And today someone has published 725 lies from the Bush administration regarding the invasion of Iraq. Though when it comes to large scale corruption of public funds I would say that many countries in Africa are the worst examples. Simply because they have such weak systems that makes it easy to rob. And when greed pass morals on all levels it create free falling.

Then there is the mob. In Russia they are very strong, in Italy they have probably had their best days.

I fully agree with Michael that we must have some kind of trust toward the government and the democratic process, in its best, are able to make corrections. But the situation today is much like cancer spreading.
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: erik on January 24, 2008, 08:22:27 PM
I fully agree with Michael that we must have some kind of trust toward the government and the democratic process, in its best, are able to make corrections. But the situation today is much like cancer spreading.

But there always comes a time when one country, one state, one government has thoroughly exhausted itself in terms or providing new experience, unraveling unknown. I'm not saying this is the particular moment in time.

I feel that way, but could be that it's only me who feels that West has monumentally exhausted itself and its days are numbered.
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Michael on January 24, 2008, 09:01:39 PM
I don't expect the government, or anyone else for that matter, to "make me happy".  I DO expect  integrity and honesty in the people that govern my country.  I've worked for major corporations that act like "mini goverments"(staunch right wing republicans, who support our current party) and through each level of power you'll find corruption.  And I'm not talking about stealing pens or post-it notes and taking them home.  I'm talking about corporation who gobble up small businesses and then fire the best qualified employees because they "make too much money"...first they "pick your mind" to find out what you know...you teach them what you know and then...the most talented go first, only to be replaced with brainwashed robots who have no life so they work day and night for whatever pay they can get.  It's truly a reflection of our grand ol' US of A.  Maybe they should change USA to AT&T...ha! 

The rich get richer and the poor get poorer.  They talk of how "we're one big family"...until the day that you actually Question what they're doing...oh, but don't make any waves, because you'll be "out".  You just "don't fit anymore".  Believe me,  I know many people who have worked for the "government".

At a time in my life, I was "out".  I was fired after 15 years (built up tenor within two company buy-outs).    I didn't understand what happened at the time, as I was only standing up for myself and other "single mothers" in the group.  But now looking back, I understand what this company did and why ...and I realized shortly after that it was the best thing that ever happened to me.  I truly believe I manifested my own demise, only to come out stronger.   

So now I compete against them.  It's quite fun actually.  A small company competing against a $2 Billion corporation.  They're so full of procedures and red tape, they never knew what hit them.  And I'm doing it based on my Talent and Integrity.

Now I look for change that will balance the scales and give each person a voice.  One person Can make a difference.  The optimist in me will say, all you who are Americans, get your asses out there and vote!  There is an Energy snowballing...something's going to blow...I can feel it ;)

Found your voice there Ang (even time for me to find a new name for you).

keep it up - speak with passion!
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Angela on January 25, 2008, 03:42:18 AM
Great story. Reminds me about that warriors use everything in their tonal to advance on their path. But I also know how difficult it is when one is in the middle of such crisis.

   :)

It was extremely difficult.  I felt betrayed by people whom i had given so much time and energy.  I Love my work and am very passionate about it...for that I feel Blessed.  The creative Me was being smothered and it really was time to go.  But they stretched it over 3 months, starting with a "review", wanting me to sign waivers so I wouldn't sue them...ha!  I didn't have to sue them, I waited patiently for two years until the time was right.  I hear they're probably going to close their local office here within the next three years...so we must be making a  dent ;)
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Angela on January 25, 2008, 03:54:03 AM

I fully agree with Michael that we must have some kind of trust toward the government and the democratic process, in its best, are able to make corrections. But the situation today is much like cancer spreading.

As disheartening our government may be, there is still a glimmer of hope that we can put our trust in Someone.  Our only chance to change it,  is by our voting power.  It's all we have.  You can talk, complain, disagree...whatever, but it all boils down to that One vote and no matter what anyone says....that is power.

There was a story on the news here in Vegas.  Some people were confused about the Caucusing, they weren't allowed in after a certain time.  A fight ensued and the police were called.  Reminds of the saying: "There will be no change until there is a civil uprising".
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Angela on January 25, 2008, 03:55:31 AM
Found your voice there Ang (even time for me to find a new name for you).

keep it up - speak with passion!
;)

Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Michael on January 25, 2008, 09:49:50 AM
As disheartening our government may be, there is still a glimmer of hope

indeed - such was the case here in Aust. it went on so long that we were ground down, till i lost hope. but nonetheless, i knew perfectly well, democracies do eventually toss out governments, even if it is just a channel-changing exercise from a bored audience.

this is a fine balance, to see the government as the 'people's tool', and yet to also realise all governments are made up of humans who will always connive. the real problem is the level of humanity.

This brings in the whole issue, of are we witnessing the birth of a new sub-species of humanity, one that is more intelligent in heart, and more naturally sensitive to the earth? If so, which I do often feel myself, then it would normally take a long while, and unfortunately we don't have that much time.
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: tommy2 on January 25, 2008, 05:45:25 PM
i am confident that there will always be enough time, m,
each time it is needed
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: erik on January 25, 2008, 06:54:25 PM
i am confident that there will always be enough time, m,
each time it is needed

Out of curiosity, Tom: what makes you think there will be enough time?
Enough time for what?
Enough time for whom?

These questions arise probably from the same point of view your confidence does - leaving the ultimate responsibility for 'strategic affairs' to Spirit. It is up to Spirit to decide what becomes of us at the end of the day; it is up to Spirit to say whether humans as species should continue to exist.

Yet such an approach warrants, from my perspective, no optimism as such a decision is simply beyond the human realm. 'We' as beings encased into physical bodies can do the effort and implement Eagle's command to the best of our ability, but we decide nothing - as far as I understand.
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Quantum Shaman on January 26, 2008, 05:21:28 AM
As disheartening our government may be, there is still a glimmer of hope that we can put our trust in Someone.  Our only chance to change it,  is by our voting power.  It's all we have.  You can talk, complain, disagree...whatever, but it all boils down to that One vote and no matter what anyone says....that is power.

Hey, Ang...  :)

There was a time when I was younger that I would absolutely have agreed, but in light of events in recent years, I'm just wondering if that is really true.  I mean... I voted for that guy who invented the internet (remember him?), and he actually DID win the election... but through some manner of manipulation of who-knows-what, Bro Gore did NOT end up in the White House, and we were treated to "four more years" of Brer Bush... and in the big picture, I'm not the least bit sure my vote matters - mainly because if the elections themselves are corrupt, or may be changed according to the whims of this bizarro thing called "the electoral college", then I might as well vote for Mr. Magoo & Underdog, since it has certainly come to appear that the elections are already decided long before ANY of us set foot in a voting booth.  Ergo... does my vote really matter?

Do I trust our government?  No.  Do I intend to run for office?  No.  Do I think it will make any difference having a woman in the White House?  No.  Will I vote?  Probably not.

Now, before I am lynched & flogged (c'mon, you know I'd enjoy it!  ;D), let me point out my reasoning for this as a warrior.  Basically, knowing that ALL of it is folly - including our government, our vote and our existence itself - I simply do not have the time or energy to waste "getting involved" in the illusions upon illusions which comprise the political arena.  When I really stand back and look at it from an energetic perspective, it is the equivalent  playing Risk in a burning house, with all the politicians insisting that we should join them in the game instead of reaching for the fire extinguisher that is only inches away.  It's the GAME that has become the focus, and the gamesters have lost all touch with "the real world".  Dining on lobster and caviar every night tends to remove one from any connection to the homeless woman in Los Angeles diving into dumpsters hoping for a scrap of discarded Big Mac.

I don't have any answers, except those I have found inside myself - and after that last election where the dude that won really didn't win, I threw in the towel and made myself a nation of one.  Am I disillusioned?  I hope so - because to be dis-illusioned would imply that one has seen the illusion and no longer chooses to participate in it.   8)  Doesn't mean I'm right or wrong, just means that instead of "getting involved" in the political illusions, I "get involved" in things that are closer to home.  For example...

The rain forests are being depleted, so I plant at least 4 new trees every year here on our property and donate when I can to organizations that promote reforestation. It won't change the world, but at the same time I feel it's something I can SEE, whereas no matter WHO ends up in the White House, the same old games are just going to continue in the same old ways.  We've been promised national healthcare for 20+ years and are no closer to it than we were when the words were first uttered.  We got out of Vietnam only to get into Iraq.  Different names, but it's the same games, over and over.

Sorry to be such a cynic about this.  I debated on whether to even say anything, but it seems to me that there was another side of this that needed to be heard, and that is simply to point out that it is ALL abject folly - including and especially politics at the national level.  Maybe (doubtful, but maybe) small-town politics or local city politics MIGHT have some hope to bring about change, but even that is unlikely, because what is really going on in "politics" is that people are fighting about the AGREEMENTS and the PROTOCOLS rather than really DOING anything about the things that would affect large numbers of "the people." By the time anyone decides on the right-and-proper wording of a bill, the issue has either resolved itself, or has moved into some manner of epidemic proportions so that it is no longer containable.  Ever see LIFE OF BRIAN?  While Brian is about to be crucified, his followers are wasting time drawing up petitions rather than just going out into the real world and rescuing him.  And, alas, that is how I have come to view politics here in the US (and probably in most other countries as well).

Back in the late 60s, I was an activist - a 14-year old kid right out there on the front lines of the anti-war protests, screaming out against the draft and the war and the whole foolish game of grown men running through the jungle shooting at the other guys hiding in the bushes. Even spent a night or two in lock-down for refusing to disperse when the nice policemen came along and gave the order to "Move along!"   Well, we've traded bushes for sand and and jungle for Afghani caves, but the game remains the same, and I do not believe it will ever change, because it is human nature to wage war, and a warrior's nature to *see* that and, as the old saying goes by don Juan, "When the sniper is present, I simply will not come around."

 Point being here - until we ALL refuse to play the games, the games will continue because that is simply the nature and the heavy gravity of folly.  Whether I vote or not, it will make no difference in a hundred years, let alone a million years.  So as a warrior, I choose my controlled folly accordingly.  Volunteer for some clean-up in a national park.  Plant a tree.  Buy a homeless kid a meal and give him a clean jacket.  At least those things are "real" to me - and I wholly admit that this is strictly my personal choice and nothing more.  I prefer to work with what I can see up close and personal, rather than trying to attach myself to some politician's campaign speech that promises what it will never deliver. That is MY controlled folly, just as it will be another warrior's controlled folly to get involved in the political arena. 

So... I hung up my protest signs, I put away my youthful vision of "world peace" and traded them in for a ruthless clarity which shows me that politics is never going to change anything, but only make it worse.  If we really believe our vote counts, then maybe the best thing we can do is not vote at all. Radical?  Sure, but look at it this way.  If NO ONE voted, that would send a much louder message than trying to sort through the aftermath to figure out who was able to manipulate the voting system most effectively. 

It just seems to me (personally and for myself only - not trying to convince anyone else) that don Juan, Jesus and Buddha probably didn't spend a lot of time reading through their voting materials the night before an election.  *heh*  I tend to think that our energy goes where we ourselves focus, and so I choose to focus on the things I CAN change rather than getting involved in the "global" stuff that seems to churn along no matter what I do or not-do.  While everyone else is at the polls in November, I'll be planting a eucalyptus or pine sapling.   :-\

The bottom line for me always comes down to one word:  folly.  It's what made our founding fathers leave England and set sail for a brave new world - for they had recognized the folly of a government that had become too large and too constricting to really do what it was "supposta" do - serve the needs of the people.  So, if anyone wants to set sail for the Martian shore or the red eye of Jupiter, sign me up and I'll be there ready to cook for the crew or stoke the fires that fuel the warp drive or take my turn at the helm.  That, to me, would "make a difference."  I'm there. I'm ready!

But will I vote in November?  Highly doubtful.  The election has already been decided.  All that remains is the dance of madness which precedes the formality of announcing "the winner".

D
PS - I'm really not looking to start a debate or argument... just wanted to put forth some opinions from the perspective of one who cannot help but see the folly.   By all means... ignore this post.   ;) 

Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: erik on January 26, 2008, 10:32:41 AM
Now, before I am lynched & flogged (c'mon, you know I'd enjoy it!  ;D), let me point out my reasoning for this as a warrior.  Basically, knowing that ALL of it is folly - including our government, our vote and our existence itself - I simply do not have the time or energy to waste "getting involved" in the illusions upon illusions which comprise the political arena.  When I really stand back and look at it from an energetic perspective, it is the equivalent  playing Risk in a burning house, with all the politicians insisting that we should join them in the game instead of reaching for the fire extinguisher that is only inches away.  It's the GAME that has become the focus, and the gamesters have lost all touch with "the real world".  Dining on lobster and caviar every night tends to remove one from any connection to the homeless woman in Los Angeles diving into dumpsters hoping for a scrap of discarded Big Mac.

Well said! I vote pretty much precisely because things are like you say. It is folly, utter folly to expect anything from a political process and politicians. There is nothing to be expected. Nothing at all.

Hence, I'm not concerned with the expectation.

Thus, I can simply vote and show to the endless darkness of the Universe that I do not agree with the destruction wrecked on this world and will never agree with it. I think, it actually matters.
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Jahn on January 26, 2008, 08:42:55 PM
Am I disillusioned?  I hope so - because to be dis-illusioned would imply that one has seen the illusion and no longer chooses to participate in it.   8)  Doesn't mean I'm right or wrong, just means that instead of "getting involved" in the political illusions, I "get involved" in things that are closer to home. 

PS - I'm really not looking to start a debate or argument... just wanted to put forth some opinions from the perspective of one who cannot help but see the folly.   By all means... ignore this post.   ;) 


There is a cancer spreading in the Dream of the planet and perhaps it is that poison that makes you "dis-illusioned".

As you point out - if one want to do something - one have to do it where one have the feet. Local engagement, clean away the dust on ones own backdoor. One can write in the newspaper too, or god forbidden, start a blogg.

Anyway, we got a new govenment that was very fresh. It was really a energy change and they have done many things that are benefitting for people that work and pay taxes. New brooms.

The old government was centered around one single (old) man and he could not engage
the rest of the party. The new government is a four part alliance and very much a team.




 
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Quantum Shaman on January 27, 2008, 04:23:54 AM
There is a cancer spreading in the Dream of the planet and perhaps it is that poison that makes you "dis-illusioned".

I'm finding that being dis-illusioned is the best thing that ever happened to me.   ;)  Having seen the illusion for what it is, I am free to make more "real" choices with regard to how I will deal with my controlled folly.  What's funny to me is that when people use the word "disillusioned" it is often in a more negative connotation - but when I really looked at that word and thought about it, it brought a smile to my face.  Dis-illusion-ed.  No longer connected to the illusion.  Huzzah!   ;D

As you point out - if one want to do something - one have to do it where one have the feet. Local engagement, clean away the dust on ones own backdoor. One can write in the newspaper too, or god forbidden, start a blogg.

That seems to be my level of involvement - and it's one I'm happy to fulfill.  I'm pretty active in certain local matters, largely because I CAN walk up to my city councilman and state my gripes, and at least I know he has heard me (though whether he LISTENS or not, is another matter).  At the level of national stuff, I've noticed that life doesn't change much for me based on who is in the White House.  Maybe that isn't true for other people, which would speak to why they choose to be involved in more "global" political issues.  Sure, we're told we can write to our congressman or send an email to the White House, but I'm pretty sure Dubya isn't going to read my email.  So... it's like shooting an arrow into the dark at a moving target - the chances of hitting anything are pretty slim.

Anyway, we got a new govenment that was very fresh. It was really a energy change and they have done many things that are benefitting for people that work and pay taxes. New brooms.

That's great, Jahn!  Send some of it over here, would ya?   8) 
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Angela on January 27, 2008, 06:36:05 AM
My point is simply this...I Am changing My world, and in in doing that I'm hopefully setting an example for others to change their world as well.  No to My world, but to their own in harmony.  I felt at times the same way Della has expressed.  But, I'm finally seeing the fruition of My intent.  And I'll be damn if I don't continue it through! 

My son and I drove around town on day of the caucusing here in Vegas.  We actually drove through the parking lot of our precinct...we were going to go back, and had we realized that it only lasted an hour, we would have stayed and participated.  By the time we wanted to return, it was over.  75 votes for Obama and 74 votes for Hillary.  I thought, "Oh shit, I should've gone in".  My vote would have made it even.  I found out later that they actually split it even...6 delegates for Obama and 6 delegates for Hillary.  But the message was...this is a very close race and every vote is going to count. 

Just driving around town and watching the news reports...the energy level and excitement from...and this is the most important part...From the Younger generations...Yes, OUR kids!.... it was at such an extreme level.  They Are smart and they are also picking up on something Spiritual.  They're Listening to us!!!!  They hold the key and Will find the way.  They were born amidst the technology that most of us Baby Boomers don't totally understand.  When my son was 4 yrs. old, he could operate the stereo, cd player, dvd player, and of course the computer (they used them at Day Care)... I remember getting out the Turntable...he said, "Wow Mom, what's that?"...heh!  They have the speed, the intelligence, the drive.  It is up to us to steer them in the appropriate direction...to me that direction is to, to.....oh, just look at everyone here's signatures...that should give you a start ;)

Hey, Della, I totally respect your point of view and I wouldn't blame you if you didn't vote.  But, my thought is, if we take a little of the tonal, sprinkle well with nagual, and vice a versa, it soon becomes one. ;)  :-* 

Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Quantum Shaman on January 27, 2008, 11:50:55 AM
My son and I drove around town on day of the caucusing here in Vegas.  We actually drove through the parking lot of our precinct...we were going to go back, and had we realized that it only lasted an hour, we would have stayed and participated.  By the time we wanted to return, it was over.  75 votes for Obama and 74 votes for Hillary.  I thought, "Oh shit, I should've gone in".  My vote would have made it even.  I found out later that they actually split it even...6 delegates for Obama and 6 delegates for Hillary.  But the message was...this is a very close race and every vote is going to count. 

Hi, Ang.  :)

I understand your enthusiasm - I even admire it.  For me, though, I must admit that the whole political thing is like an underwater circus.  It can trap my attention if I allow it, and as has been said many times, a warrior must choose her battles... and that was my primary point with my post.  Having seen the illusion, I could not participate in it as anything other than a jester - somewhat like how I view Genaro.  He just couldn't take much of anything serious. ;)  I find elections like that - I simply cannot take them seriously, anymore than I could take the election of the homecoming king & queen seriously back in high school.  *LOL*  When my AP shifted semi-permanently to the state of second attention (this occurred a few years ago - probably around 1996 or 1997... it was as if the world of the tonal ceased to have much significance, with regard to its machinations and its spiral dances.  It became to me like a ship in a bottle - still intact, but like a bubble of madness in so many ways.  So even if I WANTED to play in that world, I no longer fit inside the bottle... if you see what I mean... and so I had to shift my focus to what matters in my immediate world, and let go of my more political ideals (and I did have them at one time, many years ago).


Hey, Della, I totally respect your point of view and I wouldn't blame you if you didn't vote.  But, my thought is, if we take a little of the tonal, sprinkle well with nagual, and vice a versa, it soon becomes one. ;)  :-* 

Yup - and I totally respect your pov, too!  Heartfelt.

As for the latter... just a slightly different perspective, but I find the delight of the nagual to be that it stands apart from the tonal as the unknowable.  That is truly where I often find my greatest sense of inspiration - in the muse that cannot be caught.

Hope this makes sense.  At times I really do feel completely alien to this world - and I mean that quite literally.   :-*

With love,
D
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Shamaya on January 28, 2008, 12:27:07 AM
i am confident that there will always be enough time, m,
each time it is needed

Tommy I have to agree with you  :)  It's just something, for me, about having faith and trusting that as long as you are truely doing the best with what you have.  Leading you through the lessons you have to learn  :-\

To Della & Serafina - Kudos! Love the whole thing becuase you are each doing just what feels right for you and in each instance it makes a difference.  I mean that is the whole point of it all any way right?!  ;D

 :-*
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Angela on January 28, 2008, 12:34:55 AM
The new government is a four part alliance and very much a team.

I like that ... a team :)  Here we have a "Cabinet" that advises the president.  IMO, these offices should be "elected", instead of being appointed by the president.   http://www.whitehouse.gov/government/cabinet.html
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Angela on January 28, 2008, 12:41:01 AM
Tommy I have to agree with you  :)  It's just something, for me, about having faith and trusting that as long as you are truely doing the best with what you have.  Leading you through the lessons you have to learn  :-\

To Della & Serafina - Kudos! Love the whole thing becuase you are each doing just what feels right for you and in each instance it makes a difference.  I mean that is the whole point of it all any way right?!  ;D

 :-*

Yes, Fade...in each one of our Tiny universes, it Does make a Huge difference for a variety of reasons ;).
 :-* :-* :-*

Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: kaycee on January 28, 2008, 01:49:40 AM
What a wonderful thread!!  It inspires me again to be the Soma cheerleader-in-residence.

Not because it touches lightly on politics, but because it touches deeply in my heart. 

For the record I am a non major-election voter, for the last 10 years.  I've voted a few times in local elections when and where I believed my vote would speak for something.  Once again it comes down to not fighting against.  When it became obvious to me that I was no longer voting for a candidate, but instead voting against the one I disliked the most, I stopped the battle. 
BTW Della, your post is the first time I saw "the warrior chooses her own battles".  The feeling of a perfect fit was delectable! 

What I hear in this thread are voices of the disillusioned, the irrational, the eager to learn, and those within the system.  All say different words to speak the same thing - positive change.

Each in their own way are choosing to plant a seed (whether by tree or by vote) for unity, are nurturing it with their strongest positive intent, and are determined to fight FOR it's growth. 

And by the webstrings of connection here, how is it not possible for a new web of life to be created?

Within this web there is room for all.  And there is time enough - because we care enough to take the time.

Gooooooo Soma!!!   ;D <-toothy cheerleader grin!
Luv, K

Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: nichi on January 28, 2008, 01:53:43 AM
What a wonderful thread!!  It inspires me again to be the Soma cheerleader-in-residence.


Geaux Kaycee!!
 :D
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Quantum Shaman on January 28, 2008, 04:01:34 AM
When it became obvious to me that I was no longer voting for a candidate, but instead voting against the one I disliked the most, I stopped the battle. 

Yup - that just about sizes it up!  *LOL*  I've often felt there should be a box on the ballot that says, "None of the above: check here." 

BTW Della, your post is the first time I saw "the warrior chooses her own battles".  The feeling of a perfect fit was delectable! 

That's been an ongoing lesson for me for years - learning to choose my battles better.  What I've really learned through it all is that there are some things I can change or affect, and there are some things where my voice is nothing more than a single grain of sand on the beach, a drop of water in the rushing river.  The bit about "choosing one's battles" is something I picked up from my SO, Wendy.  She is much more placid than I am, by nature, and one day when I was railing about global warming or the ozone or some such, she looked at me like I was nuts and said, "Girlfriend, you have to CHOOSE your battles, and if you keep choosing the ones you can't win, you're just going to get beat up and be old and defeated before your time."

Well, those words made a world of sense to me on all levels, particularly the warrior level, so now when a "battle" presents itself, I have to ask myself if it's "worthy" of my attention, or if I am just trying to divert the course of the river with a pebble.  If it's the river and the pebble scenario, I will usually find something more productive to do (meaning "more productive" to my own standards).  This morning, I'm going to trim up some bushes, harvest some chapparal (the tender new leaves have emerged), and working on a chapter for a new book I'm (slowly) trying to convince myself to write.  *heh*  Small battles, but very personal & close to home. 

Hope you're having a great weekend!  It's rainy and overcast here - and I am LOVING it!  :)
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: erik on January 28, 2008, 05:15:30 AM
Warrior choosing his/her battle is an interesting subject.

At the general level individuals have chosen their battle by incarnating here, into this world, into this particular time - where, as some US citizens here point out, they have little or no impact on what their country does at the international level (and, respectively - how and in which form it comes back to the US).

What is the battle there? To realise the inefficiency (read: hopelessness) of political process and and turn away? To realise the inefficiency and do something? To stay in the grim reality and prepare for the worst? To escape the reality? To do the job one has come to do?
Many options, many possibilities there.

At the individual level one has also many options - from trying to make this earthly life a bit more pleasant and tolerable using a tiny bit of magic, to really pushing the thing and expanding awareness as much as possible.
Again, many possibilities there.

And over and above everything - we have been granted a free will allowing us to select any battle that we like and fight it till the last breath.
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Quantum Shaman on January 28, 2008, 06:05:24 AM
Warrior choosing his/her battle is an interesting subject.

What is the battle there? To realise the inefficiency (read: hopelessness) of political process and and turn away? To realise the inefficiency and do something? To stay in the grim reality and prepare for the worst? To escape the reality? To do the job one has come to do?

For me, the "battle" is in truly realizing and *seeing* and being able to accept that there are some things I can change, and some things I can't.  What's that old prayer:

"God, grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
the courage to change the things I can;
and the wisdom to know the difference."

When I stand in the assemblage point of my own totality (which happens on occasion), what is *seen* is that I cannot change the folly of man. Simply.  Cannot.  Change.  It.  I can only choose my "battle" in this case, to be one that circumvents as much of the folly as possible.  Your comment above, re "the hopelessness of political process" is a statement I find to be very true, particularly at the national level.  When we were a tribal society, the council of elders (or whatever passed for one) actually had the power to make policy and enforce it.  The "law" was more personal and therefore more effective.  The tribal elders were our fathers and our uncles, and the policies that issued from their edicts were usually if not always to protect the interests of the tribe while simultaneously honoring the individual's contribution.

Now, at the level of national politics... we are dealing with strangers who are so far removed from "the tribe" that there is no sense of community.  Most of the "policies" that come down from on high are not geared toward protecting the tribe, but usually if not always have some basis in monetary gain for the politicians themselves.  Granted, that is an oversimplified statement, but at the core of what I am attempting to say, I have seen it to be true.  The sense of "tribe" has become lost, and when the people no longer feel valued by their leaders, there is a tendency toward anarchy and lawlessness, which is precisely what we are seeing in this country. 

Obviously I'm just barely scraping at the tip of the tip of the iceberg, but in a nutshell that's why I have chosen NOT to engage in this particular "battle", and why I suspect many with a Toltec bent would probably be in at least mild agreement.  At this point, trying to chage the world through voting seems rather like some of the old "world peace meditations" back in the 60s.  A bunch of hippies (yes, myself included) would pick a day for a meditation, and on that day we'd all sit down for an hour or two and "visualize world peace."  (Which is now often seen on bumper stickers as "visualize whirled peas."  *LOL*)

Did it do any good?  Apparently not, for nothing has changed in the world of matter & men.  And so it started to make a LOT more sense to me to pick my "battles" closer to home.  I might not be able to bring about world peace, but I CAN feed a stray cat who wanders up on my porch.  I CAN buy a homeless man a meal and maybe in doing so give him one gram of hope for himself.  I CAN  communicate DIRECTLY with my neighbor about keeping his dogs out of the street instead of just reporting him straight to the police. 

Small battles.  Tiny ones.  But one thing that has become a recurring lesson throughout my life is that I am far better equipped to deal with the things that cross my path rather than trying to change the world in some major way.  Doesn't mean I don't admire & utterly respect those who DO become political activists or go out on the Greenpeace ships... but spirit has guided me to my own back yard.  That is where I most often choose my battles.

Thanks for a thoughtful post, Juhani. This whole thread has helped me to really see more clearly just WHY I have come to view the political arena as I do.  So it's been a very positive thing for me.   :)
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: erik on January 28, 2008, 08:37:55 AM
It is all good and reasonable, Della, and yet there have been Jesus, Buddha, Joan of Arc and others and others. Can you imagine how Jesus saw people surrounding him and how his task felt to him? Some say it took six attempts, six lives for Jesus to even convey his message.

Not really advocating people to become Jesuses and martyrs here (there are plenty of these in production in Al Qaeda brainwash factories). In these matters I just happen to belong to the camp who says at the end of all reasonable and rational arguments (be they based on seeing or not): 'And yet...'
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Angela on January 28, 2008, 09:39:10 AM
Ok...so Obama won South Carolina, but Hilliary is ahead nationwide.  I would love to see one or the other elected president, of course...but it would also be very cool to have them both in the White House...one as president and the other vice-president. (I wonder if they have discussed this? ;) ) 

Who would have thought 30 years ago that such change would occur...a woman and a black man running for president...I'm stoked!!!  ;D
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Michael on January 28, 2008, 12:58:51 PM
There is a confusion afoot here. Unfortunately I don't have the time to do it justice now, but I'll sketch the outline quickly:

It makes a huge difference whether you are viewing from the AP of the 'people of the path' or of the general public. It has been well recognised by almost all traditions, that public teachings differ markedly from the inner teachings, reserved only for those who dedicate themselves to the essence of the tradition.

General Public.

If you travel, you will notice that different places have different social vibes - some are healthier than others. The same applies to countries, with different social agreements, bringing very different moods between countries. This means that the way in which a community interacts makes a huge difference to the lives of individuals, which an individual of that community does not fully comprehend unless they travel between communities.

The current political debate that has swept Western nations, and is also becoming significant in Developing nations, is the divide between what is known as the Neo-liberal (NL) agenda (the new Right of politics - the old Right was more about status-quo structures) and the old socialist impulse, now seen more in terms of what I call 'Domain' political agenda.

Neo-liberal began after the Depression/WWII/New Deal, when Socialism finally won across the Western democracies - it is too late to go back, despite the massive effort of the Right, we still now all live in essentially socialist/humanist cultures. What came to be known as Neo-liberalism began with meetings in Europe, then got a stunning ascendancy under Reagan in the US with the snow-balling power of what the US calls Movement Conservatism (MC).

There are many associated grouping of this agenda. But the critical thing is that they had access to vast sums of money, with which they set up piles of right-wing Think Tanks. One of their primary objectives since the start was to roll back the socialist impulse, and in the US, especially the hated New Deal. They have been financially successful (if not completely culturally successful) - we now have returned in most Western democracies to 18th century distributions of wealth - 90% of wealth in the hands of 10% type of graph. There has been an engineered massive shift of wealth away from the middle ground, away from the 'Domain' we all mutually inhabit.

The most focused mechanism in this, has been the changing of language, to a NL/MC based platform, such that even when we talk of community or personal values we talk in terms identified and purposely pushed out into the public sphere - eg. 'Social Capital' instead of just 'community'.

In every country, the new right is on about personal wealth - they despise the whole concept of giving away personal wealth to foster the wealth of the shared domain. They also always want voluntary voting, because the disadvantaged/uninformed classes can't be bothered to vote. The wealthy classes know this perfectly well, and so it serves their interest to have a voluntary system. They want to do it in Australia also, but our constitution won't allow - we have compulsory voting.

The jewel in the crown of this struggle, between left and right politics in the USA, is the National Health scheme. Both sides readily admit, it is no secret believe me, that the success or scrapping of the National Health scheme will decide the final outcome of this battle. Whoever wins that one, takes all. The vehemence with which they have plotted and activated to achieve success or scrapping of this scheme, is beyond all other issues.

However, a distinct shift is being observed in Australia and the USA - a distaste for the consequences of NL/MC. Cyclone Katrina, and then the collapse of that bridge, were watersheds in a deeply felt nausea by the public for extreme right wing agendas. It is very likely the Republicans in the US have reached their use-by date. Such a revulsion to their political influence will relegate them to the sin-bin of public credibility for long enough for the major shift in global political sensibilities, brought forth by the environmental disaster sweeping the world, to make them irrelevant to the future survival of any nation.

Voluntary voting causes the dis-enfranchised classes to not vote because of two main reasons:
1. Apathy - they simply can't be bothered.
2. Cynicism - to politicians, politics, the voting system, and in fact to the entire system.

The general public should be encouraged to participate in voting and being informed of the politics of a country, as they have nothing else. Their own mechanism as community or social class for survival, is through their elected government - there is no other avenue they as a group can pursue to ensure they are not totally ripped off. Every other mechanism, is not democratic, and as such becomes another disenfranchisement, as power by vested interests always has access to leadership of all groups.

The argument that 'my personal vote is meaningless' is accurate from an isolated individual's point of view. But it becomes a tool in the hands of those seeking the lower classes to remain out of political championship. It is the same argument, of saving electricity, water, of not using plastic bags and of planting trees in one's back yard. Nothing an individual can do environmentally will make the slightest difference to the environmental catastrophes occurring around us. The only reason to be personally environmentally responsible is to 'show the flag', to participate in a ground swell, to lend one's support for a wider change - the hundredth monkey effect.

In the end, with the imminent collapse of civilisation as we know it, breathing down our necks, our only chance for survival in the worst-case scenario, will be community solutions, not individual.

People of the Path.

This is what we are really discussing in this thread. Not the general public AP, but the AP of one who is "in the world but not of the world". And that makes all the difference.

The reason is that we have a fall back position - an alternative home. We can't be tossed out homeless from society, because we have the edifice of the Path, with its sangha. We follow the dictates of Spirit, or God, or whatever other word people use, and are only 'passing through' the social, environmental and economic world.

This question, of how much participation people of the path should take 'in the world' has been agonised over by all traditions. Christian monks, Taoist recluses, Buddhism, Toltec, you name it - any tradition which values personal enlightenment or spiritual freedom as primary, has had difficulty in finding an answer to this issue.

The first rule, is if you are destined to participate, then it's your personal road, and off you go - no one ever complains on that basis.

The second rule, is that almost all 'path' traditions have at some time been slaughtered by the general public, whipped up by the politics of the day. So they had to acknowledge if they were to be allowed the personal space and freedom to do their practices, they had to keep an eye out for societal insanity.

However Toltecs came up with two remarkable tenants - controlled folly, and stalking. What these mean, is that by participating in the 'folly' of the world around us, we will find tools of immeasurable value for our own inner journey.

Controlled Folly does not mean we see the world as folly so much, as that we act in the folly of the world as if it wasn't folly. Stalking was a brilliant realisation, that although we are peerless sages in our own little cave, as soon as we step into the world of our fellow humans, we immediately lose all our precious composure, and before we know it, we are frothing at the mouth like everyone else.

Thus the practice is to participate in the ups and downs, the excitement and depressions of the social world we live within, knowing it is madness - not in its own terms mind you, reference my previous section for the general public, but in our terms, seeing from our structure of priorities, from our realisations about the nature of life and death, and our opportunities within that.

By such practice, a doorway appears, which we can mine with wondrous profit for our ultimate purpose. So long as we don't forget to keep hold of the sacrificial bowl and spoon as the I Ching says - so long as we don't forget who we are and where we are going, and become lost in the 'mind of the world'.

So long as we remain in the world and not off the world.

One of the first gifts on offer, is awareness. Most people are uninformed of the forces and processes of the world they live in. Awareness has many facets, but one important one is the simple awareness of the world we inhabit. In all it's physical and abstracted extensions.

One reason I specifically included topics of political, environmental and economic issues in the Board of 'Action', is because most uninformed people on the path are uninformed not by choice, but by laziness.

But the real reason I included this area of Action, is because I have a deeper agenda. I can't launch into this now, but I have a strategy beyond my own spiritual road - I have a strategy for the sangha. And that strategy calls for the application of adventures into worlds of action - for everyone occasionally, but for some as their primary field of activity - the field through which their personal spiritual path passes. Politics is only one of unlimited fields of action.

This is about my position in the Red Root Race - 'reds' are almost always at the forefront of action fields, as their potency of individuality (red) naturally throws them into the height of every battle. Underneath this lies a doorway to freedom, if it can only be grasped. Enough of that.

So, for people of the path, the first question, is are you not voting out of laziness, of laziness towards awareness of the world? Or out of an evolution in understanding your own path of awareness in the world?

There is no point in fooling yourself, or fooling us - you have to decide, are you stepping up to your tasks of awareness, or sitting back, pretending with your mind that you are holy, instead of just apathetic.

Remember, there is no place on this path for those without passion.
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Jennifer- on January 29, 2008, 12:23:57 AM
Quote
So, for people of the path, the first question, is are you not voting out of laziness, of laziness towards awareness of the world? Or out of an evolution in understanding your own path of awareness in the world?

There is no point in fooling yourself, or fooling us - you have to decide, are you stepping up to your tasks of awareness, or sitting back, pretending with your mind that you are holy, instead of just apathetic.

Remember, there is no place on this path for those without passion.

I havnt voted in years.. infact I cant recall ever voting yet I must of taken an interest in a town election at some point because Ive gone and registered.

Its been said to me before.. How can you not vote when you express such deep concern for the world around you?

All I could say is this.. and I still find this true for me and yet as always Im willing to embrace change.

I dont need to vote to influence its outcome.




Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Angela on January 29, 2008, 02:54:06 AM

However Toltecs came up with two remarkable tenants - controlled folly, and stalking. What these mean, is that by participating in the 'folly' of the world around us, we will find tools of immeasurable value for our own inner journey.

Controlled Folly does not mean we see the world as folly so much, as that we act in the folly of the world as if it wasn't folly. Stalking was a brilliant realisation, that although we are peerless sages in our own little cave, as soon as we step into the world of our fellow humans, we immediately lose all our precious composure, and before we know it, we are frothing at the mouth like everyone else.

Thus the practice is to participate in the ups and downs, the excitement and depressions of the social world we live within, knowing it is madness - not in its own terms mind you, reference my previous section for the general public, but in our terms, seeing from our structure of priorities, from our realisations about the nature of life and death, and our opportunities within that.

By such practice, a doorway appears, which we can mine with wondrous profit for our ultimate purpose. So long as we don't forget to keep hold of the sacrificial bowl and spoon as the I Ching says - so long as we don't forget who we are and where we are going, and become lost in the 'mind of the world'.

So long as we remain in the world and not off the world.


I sense these opportunities.  For the first time in many years, I see a glimmer of hope.  My opportunity is to influence wherever I'm able.  The only way to do that, is to be informed, Aware of what's going on in the world around me and participate...not as the "concerned citizen", but as the extremely concerned Warrior. 

It's Do or Die time...I've chosen to Do where passion, spirit, whatever you want to call that core of Knowing, is pushing me.  Does Everyone belong there?  No...and that's what makes this Path so lonely and oh so very personal. 

I don't expect everyone, or anyone for that matter, to join me.  It's not my business who votes and who doesn't...it's a very personal decision.  I love you all just as you are  :-*  I'm not here to debate or judge.

If allowed, I will continue to share my excitement and passion for this cause.  Because to me, there is much on the line...not only the future of our Mother Earth, but also the future of our sons and daughters, who we are presently grooming for their own Paths.

Ang  :)
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Jahn on January 29, 2008, 04:01:43 AM
Ok...so Obama won South Carolina, but Hilliary is ahead nationwide.  I would love to see one or the other elected president, of course...but it would also be very cool to have them both in the White House...one as president and the other vice-president. (I wonder if they have discussed this? ;) ) 

Exactly my thought, who will be president of them two and who would be vice president. I read an interview with Obamas grandmother, she lives in Kenya, another place of disaster. But she liked her grandson, she was proud of him for what he had done when he visited her some year ago.

Now Hillary, she has some problem with being married to Clinton. I do not think Bill Clinton was such a bad president and he can surely brief her wife about those "know how" details if she come to the white house (no jokes here please  ;D ). Neverthelees I kind of feel that many Americans just will not buy Bill for another election period even if it is only from the breakfast table, just as Ted Kennedy wont support them.

But boy, if Obama wins the Super Tuesday, do "they" kill him then?
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Zamurito on January 29, 2008, 04:19:12 AM

But boy, if Obama wins the Super Tuesday, do "they" kill him then?

My thoughts exactly, as I voiced them to Ang last night.
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Angela on January 29, 2008, 04:28:45 AM
Now Hillary, she has some problem with being married to Clinton. I do not think Bill Clinton was such a bad president and he can surely brief her wife about those "know how" details if she come to the white house (no jokes here please  ;D ). Neverthelees I kind of feel that many Americans just will not buy Bill for another election period even if it is only from the breakfast table, just as Ted Kennedy wont support them.

Hillary and Bill worked together when he was in office.  She is a very shrewd strategizer.  IMO, Bill is her "balance" right now, until she chooses a running mate.

I know Ted Kennedy supports Obama, but I heard three others in the Kennedy clan support Hillary, one being  Robert F. Kennedy Jr.  This has been less publicized...not sure why.

KENNEDY: I’M FOR HILLARY (http://rfkin2008.wordpress.com/2007/10/08/kennedy-supports-clinton-for-president/)
 


Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Angela on January 29, 2008, 04:44:32 AM
Quote from: Jahn on Today at 09:01:43 AM

But boy, if Obama wins the Super Tuesday, do "they" kill him then?


My thoughts exactly, as I voiced them to Ang last night.

Obama has more Secret Service men protecting him than any of the other candidates.  If anything happens to him, I think there would be a huge civil uprising.  I think it would behoove "them" to keep him safe.
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: nichi on January 29, 2008, 05:31:09 AM
The story-teller in me can see a conspiracy-story in the making: the republican party throws all their weight into seeing Hillary and/or Obama or both getting the ticket, because they know that formerly-apathetic people will roust themselves out to vote republican -- anything but see a woman or a black man take office!

</intuitive cynicism>

Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Angela on January 29, 2008, 06:06:46 AM
As a matter of fact ... the story-teller in me can see a conspiracy-story in the making: the republican party throws all their weight into seeing Hillary and/or Obama or both getting the ticket, because they know that formerly-apathetic people will roust themselves out to vote republican -- anything but see a woman or a black man take office!

</intuitive cynicism>



I don't know, V...I think the "masses" have been rousted...see S.Carolina Primary.

I don't think "they" want another Civil War on their hands.  Remember what happened in LA...Rodney King?  Imagine that on a national scale.
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Quantum Shaman on January 29, 2008, 07:14:08 AM
I don't know, V...I think the "masses" have been rousted...see S.Carolina Primary.

I don't think "they" want another Civil War on their hands.  Remember what happened in LA...Rodney King?  Imagine that on a national scale.

The thing is, Ang, you are rational and can forward-think. That in itself is a rare gift!  :)  Some of the bigots & misogynists I have known would probably defect to Russia or agree to have their naughty bits tortured before they would stand for ANY minority in office.  It's a scary world.
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: nichi on January 29, 2008, 07:25:04 AM
Some of the bigots & misogynists I have known would probably defect to Russia or agree to have their naughty bits tortured before they would stand for ANY minority in office.  It's a scary world.

Sad but true, D.
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Michael on February 06, 2008, 10:50:52 PM
Well, America may never have seen anything like it.
But let me tell you,
the rest of the world is looking on with gobsmacking hilarity.

Super Tuesday, and what do we have?
Republican who's not a real Republican.
And in the other corner - the big bright corner?
A woman and a black man!

I tell you we, the rest, can't believe our eyes.
The US is turning in its grave.

Humanity won't change over night, just like that,
but this is still one hell of a show, for sore hearts.
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: tommy2 on February 07, 2008, 06:40:30 AM
This IS, certainly, the shape of things to  come. 

Many don't see it but within 50 years most who live today won't recognize the U.S., for it will have changed THAT much.


If you haven't already by now, take a close look at our world history and the fate of all the other "great powers" that have been. They all fell, and fell from within.

This is just the tip of the inevitable iceberg, when a nation starts losing contact with itself.

Mark my word.  t
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Angela on March 06, 2008, 02:11:46 AM
Looks like Hillary is making some progress.  She won Ohio ... crucial in obtaining the Democratic nomination.

By STEPHEN OHLEMACHER, Associated Press Writer
Wed Mar 5, 2:20 AM ET
WASHINGTON - Democrats Barack Obama and Hillary Rodham Clinton split delegates in four states Tuesday while Republican John McCain claimed his party's nomination for president.

Clinton picked up at least 115 delegates in Ohio, Rhode Island, Vermont and Texas, while Obama picked up at least 88. Nearly 170 delegates were still to be awarded, including 154 in Texas.

Obama had a total of 1,477 delegates, including separately chosen party and elected officials known as superdelegates (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superdelegate), according to the Associated Press count. He picked up three superdelegate endorsements Tuesday, Clinton had 1,391 delegates. It will take 2,025 delegates to secure the Democratic nomination.

McCain surpassed the 1,191 delegates needed to secure the nomination by winning delegates in the four states. He also picked up new endorsements from about 30 party officials who will automatically attend the convention and can support whomever they choose.

McCain had 1,224 delegates, according to the AP count. Former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee, who had 261 delegates, dropped out of the race Tuesday night.

The AP tracks the delegate races by calculating the number of national convention delegates won by candidates in each presidential primary or caucus, based on state and national party rules, and by interviewing unpledged delegates to obtain their preferences.

Most primaries and some caucuses are binding, meaning delegates won by the candidates are pledged to support that candidate at the national conventions this summer.

Political parties in some states, however, use multistep procedures to award national delegates. Typically, such states use local caucuses to elect delegates to state or congressional district conventions, where national delegates are selected. In these states, the AP uses the results from local caucuses to calculate the number of national delegates each candidate will win, if the candidate's level of support at the caucus doesn't change."



I found this part (wikipedia - superdelegates) interesting, almost Mafioso-esque ....
At the 2008 Democratic National Convention the superdelegates will make up approximately one-fifth of the total number of delegates. The unforeseen and unprecedented closeness of the race between the leading contenders Hillary Rodham Clinton and Barack Obama following Super Tuesday has focused attention on the potential role of the superdelegates in selecting the Democratic nominee, inasmuch as in the aggregate they could come to be kingmakers to a degree not seen in previous election cycles.[2] Such an outcome would result in the first brokered convention (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brokered_convention) since 1952.

 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brokered_convention)brokered convention...
A brokered convention refers to a situation in United States politics in which there are not enough delegates obtained during the presidential primary and caucus process for a single candidate to obtain an absolute majority in the first round of voting of the presidential nominating convention. Once the first ballot has been held, and no candidate has a majority of delegate votes, the convention is then considered brokered, and the nomination is decided through political horse-trading (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoke-filled_room) and further ballots.

The "smoked-filled room"...


Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Michael on April 18, 2008, 08:52:40 PM
Watched a little of the latest debate. have to say, I like Obama. Hillery is good - she will be fine, and she is a woman. Time for a woman in the White Room.

But Obama just seems more genuine, in some refreshing way. But will he live? - big question. And more than that, if he runs for president and builds such hope, then is shot? - what will be the psychological damage to the whole American nation? - not sure they would recover easily from that.
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: erik on April 18, 2008, 09:53:03 PM
Being a skeptic, I would ask: what change (if any) can these two bring to the world? From the strategic viewpoint, Obama would be disaster for Iraq - quick withdrawal would hit that country hard. Even withdrawal in 1-2 years would be pretty disastrous. Counterinsurgency wars take a lot of time to be managed successfully.
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Jahn on April 19, 2008, 05:00:09 AM
Being a skeptic, I would ask: what change (if any) can these two bring to the world? From the strategic viewpoint, Obama would be disaster for Iraq - quick withdrawal would hit that country hard. Even withdrawal in 1-2 years would be pretty disastrous. Counterinsurgency wars take a lot of time to be managed successfully.

Going in to Iraq was a big mistake - now leaving Iraq is a big mistake! Isn't that a paradox?

Ok I know the figures - but anyway. It's Friday and I want some fun.
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: erik on April 19, 2008, 05:46:01 AM
Going in to Iraq was a big mistake - now leaving Iraq is a big mistake! Isn't that a paradox?

Nope, it means that mistakes come with their price tag attached.
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Jahn on April 20, 2008, 02:25:56 AM
Nope, it means that mistakes come with their price tag attached.

You are so rational.

I hope I can afford my mistakes then   :).

What I meant was; by going in to a room (enter Iraq) this is considered of most of us as a mistake, then by leaving the room (get out of Iraq) is also considered as a mistake.
 
Rational would say that if enter is a mistake - then leave. Then somebody say, if you have entered - to leave is a mistake. Eehh, please,  - Anybody see my Friday evening point?

I think the US should have a 2 years time out (penalty) in International affairs for "Interference" (we have a hockey league in final right now therefore I make that allegori).
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Michael on April 20, 2008, 04:00:04 AM
The US will pull out of Iraq, whoever becomes President.

As for what is the best - it would seem logical to say they should stay in order to help stabilise. But actually I don't think the Iraqis care - they are in a battle for supremacy since the first day of the US invasion, and who wins out will win out. As it is now, the US is not in the game - this game is being played by all the countries around, and the forces within Iraq.

But it is the people in US who have had enough, and I am amazed it has taken this long.

Personally I think Iran will win - Iraq will become Shia, and the Sunies are in for a very rough time. The Kurds will maybe hold their own, much to Turkey's dismay. And all that doesn't bode well for Saudi, or Israel. I believe the US admin know this, and so the big question of whether to bomb Iran back a few hundred years, before they pull the troupes out. Somehow, I can't see it happening, but then the oil crisis is likely to change many things in the next year.
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: erik on April 20, 2008, 08:12:22 PM
The US will pull out of Iraq, whoever becomes President.

A bit more mind candy. If the US pulled out, they would lose their bases in the Middle East. They did pull out of kingdom al-Saud, shifted into Iraq, and I wonder if any of their presidents can afford getting out of the region fully. What becomes of Israel? Million question marks there.

As for what is the best - it would seem logical to say they should stay in order to help stabilise. But actually I don't think the Iraqis care - they are in a battle for supremacy since the first day of the US invasion, and who wins out will win out. As it is now, the US is not in the game - this game is being played by all the countries around, and the forces within Iraq.

Our guys who have returned from there have said that, indeed, 80% of Iraqis have been fence-sitters so far. Yet with the US arming 'neighbourhood watch' (classic counterinsurgency move) things seem to change. It is becoming way too personal for many and thereby the struggle of elite means less. I wonder to what extent the description above is valid.

But it is the people in US who have had enough, and I am amazed it has taken this long.

It has been shown that public support for Vietnam war broke down in the US in 1967 at the weekly casualty rate of 10-20 men. In Iraq the same level of losses was reached at the end of 2004 - beginning of 2005. Considering the exit date of the US from Vietnam, it is just history repeating itself.

Having talked to some knowledgeable people form the US establishment, I heard the opinion that Democrats are heading for the loss. They keep squabbling and Republicans might put forward an unbeatable duo: McCain-Powell. The assessment is that Republicans would only have to wait until Democrats lose the election.
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: nichi on April 20, 2008, 08:23:56 PM
Quote
heard the opinion that Democrats are heading for the loss. They keep squabbling and Republicans might put forward an unbeatable duo: McCain-Powell. The assessment is that Republicans would only have to wait until Democrats lose the election.

I think that's a pretty sound opinion. At least as of right now. And recently Hillary has come to the press to say that she "thinks Obama could make it to the White House" -- that she never meant to imply otherwise. Fancy footwork it was, but fairly transparent. So they have become aware of their own agitation themselves. In comparison, McCain has stayed more quiet than them, and that may be the winning strategy.

Hope I'm wrong, though.
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: erik on April 20, 2008, 08:58:25 PM
You are so rational.

I hope I can afford my mistakes then   :).

What I meant was; by going in to a room (enter Iraq) this is considered of most of us as a mistake, then by leaving the room (get out of Iraq) is also considered as a mistake.
 
Rational would say that if enter is a mistake - then leave. Then somebody say, if you have entered - to leave is a mistake. Eehh, please,  - Anybody see my Friday evening point?

I think the US should have a 2 years time out (penalty) in International affairs for "Interference" (we have a hockey league in final right now therefore I make that allegori).

Well, I did see the paradox there. :) It is just that everyone can put a different allegory behind the event.

For example, you could see the US' Iraq-adventure as a child playing with a hand grenade. The kid plays and throws it up in the air until suddenly ...the pin is on the floor and the kid holds the grenade in hand - desperately squeezing the spring in order to prevent explosion.

Now, the first reflex of the kid is to cut the losses (bloody hell, what to do with the grenade...my dad will kick my butt!) throw the grenade on the floor and run. But that is precisely the one thing he cannot do under any circumstances as it might kill him. The cool head, patience, clear seeing and pondering are keys out of the trouble...
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: erik on November 01, 2008, 07:54:21 PM
Some say elections are only about perception management

Quote
From The Times
October 31, 2008
Barack Obama lays plans to deaden expectation after election victory

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/article5051118.ece

Tim Reid in Washington

Barack Obama’s senior advisers have drawn up plans to lower expectations for his presidency if he wins next week’s election, amid concerns that many of his euphoric supporters are harbouring unrealistic hopes of what he can achieve.

The sudden financial crisis and the prospect of a deep and painful recession have increased the urgency inside the Obama team to bring people down to earth, after a campaign in which his soaring rhetoric and promises of “hope” and “change” are now confronted with the reality of a stricken economy.

One senior adviser told The Times that the first few weeks of the transition, immediately after the election, were critical, “so there’s not a vast mood swing from exhilaration and euphoria to despair”.

The aide said that Mr Obama himself was the first to realise that expectations risked being inflated.

In an interview with a Colorado radio station, Mr Obama appeared to be engaged already in expectation lowering. Asked about his goals for the first hundred days, he said he would need more time to tackle such big and costly issues as health care reform, global warming and Iraq. “The first hundred days is going to be important, but it’s probably going to be the first thousand days that makes the difference,” he said. He has also been reminding crowds in recent days how “hard” it will be to achieve his goals, and that it will take time.

“I won’t stand here and pretend that any of this will be easy – especially now,” Mr Obama told a rally in Sarasota, Florida, yesterday, citing “the cost of this economic crisis, and the cost of the war in Iraq”. Mr Obama’s transition team is headed by John Podesta, a Washington veteran and a former chief-of-staff to Bill Clinton. He has spent months overseeing a virtual Democratic government-in-exile to plan a smooth transition should Mr Obama emerge victorious next week. The plans are so far advanced that an Obama Cabinet has been largely decided upon, with the expectation that most of his senior appointments could be announced shortly after election day.

Yet Mr Obama and his aides are under no illusions about the size of the challenges the Democrat will inherit if he enters the Oval Office. Tom Daschle, the party’s former leader in the US Senate and a strong contender for the post of White House chief-of-staff in an Obama administration, said last month that the winner next week would have only a 50 per cent chance of winning a second term in 2012.

Not only will the next president take office with the country sliding into a potentially long recession — and mired in debt — but the challenges abroad are immense. There is an unfinished war in Iraq, a worsening situation in Afghanistan and an unstable and nuclear-armed Pakistan to contend with. Iran appears intent on acquiring the bomb and there remains the ever-present threat from al-Qaeda and Islamic extremists.

If he wins, Mr Obama will inherit a Democratic-controlled Congress, and might even have the benefit of a 60-seat filibuster-proof “supermajority” in the Senate. Such a scenario would allow him to push through legislation largely unfettered by Republican opposition. Yet it also means that should the country still be mired in recession in three years’ time, voters — who have short memories — will probably blame him and the Democrats on Capitol Hill. Those stakes have led Mr Obama to conclude that while expectations need to be tempered, big things need to be achieved very early in his first term, when he will still have the political capital to achieve some of his most ambitious legislative goals.

Having promised “real” change, the pressure will be on him to deliver. In the Colorado interview, Mr Obama added: “The next president has got to come quickly out of the box.”

The early priorities being lined up if he takes power are a mixture of symbolism and substance. He plans to make a major address in a big Muslim country early in his first term. Having pledged on the campaign trail to close Guantanamo Bay, he is also determined to make early moves to rid America of the controversial prison. Yet what to do with the remaining inmates looms as an intractable problem, as many of their home governments refuse to allow them to return.

Mr Obama’s first legislative goals will be to follow through on his pledge to cut taxes for the middle class and raise them for the wealthiest Americans, and to push through a hugely expensive Bill to provide near-universal health insurance.
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Jahn on November 01, 2008, 08:28:32 PM
"Tom Daschle, the party’s former leader in the US Senate and a strong contender for the post of White House chief-of-staff in an Obama administration, said last month that the winner next week would have only a 50 per cent chance of winning a second term in 2012."

The article is down to earth but statements like this above is only another useless piece of speculation that is so common these days. Different experts making a forecast of  situations they cannot know a iota about.

Though, I heard the other day one reason why Bush were elected twice, that was because it is seldom a change of a president if the US are in war. I cannot say if that is true.

 
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: erik on November 01, 2008, 08:33:22 PM
Well, that

Barack Obama’s senior advisers have drawn up plans to lower expectations for his presidency if he wins next week’s election, amid concerns that many of his euphoric supporters are harbouring unrealistic hopes of what he can achieve.

suggests that it si not about speculation any more. These people seem to be serious about letting the air out fo expectations now. Managing percpetions.
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Jahn on November 01, 2008, 09:16:39 PM
The article is down to earth

Meaning that of course he will have a tough time to deal with the mess that the US are in and it is of course wise to be realistic, to get the voters and the public realistic figures. Bush could cheat and lie to get support to enter Iraq but that type of politics will not work in the future.
Rome wasn't built in one day.

Much of today is also built on short term rewards, instant access. That "Change" is a slow process and I would say that the US will perhaps need 3 periods (at least 10 years) with a president that works in the same direction as senator Obama before there has been significant change. before we can say that it is a healthier society.

The recession, the national debt, the infra structure and the health/welfare system. It is great issues to deal with.

First the deficit must go down to zero, now it is about 8 percent, at the same time you are expected to increase the welfare, that is a difficult equation. Then reducing the national debt while at the same time put billions and billions in to the infra structure. That is the second very difficult equation. And I haven't even mentioned the climate issue.

Will the US "save money" if they left Iraq tomorrow? And if they do, to what price will they "save" that money?
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: erik on November 02, 2008, 06:32:34 AM
The estimates say that in order to keep his promises, Obama will need several trillions of dollars, and he would end his reign with a national debt of 550 billion dollars.

But that is the least of his concerns. As a human, he will be subjected to enormous pressure to behave according to 'public' expectation. Attention of billions will be on him - bending his will. I am sure he actually can do almost nothing to 'change' the US.

People expect change from him, while not being able to effect it themselves. These 301 million Americans struggle trmendously to change themselves even a little, but for some unknown reason expect Obama and others to change the world, or country or whatnot.

Can Obama change the views of 100 million rednecks or of 18% of electorate constituted by end-timers? Can Obama change any American citizen by his power of the US president?

Nope.

Expect it from him is as good as expect God to change the world and compensate for human stupidity. Having faith in Obama or any other human institution is as good as religion.

We just so badly need a shoulder to lean on and rest our hopes on.
God, president, armed forces, police, shaman next door...
mystic ancient knowledge, light...etc

All the same.

No way will they do what we expect.
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Jahn on November 02, 2008, 07:35:08 PM
The estimates say that in order to keep his promises, Obama will need several trillions of dollars, and he would end his reign with a national debt of 550 billion dollars.

Eh, I found out on Wikipeda and another site that the US national debt just passed 10 trillion dollars.

Year, USD billions, Percent of GDP
1980: 930.2   33.3%
1990: 3,233    55.9 %
2000: 5,674     58,0%
2007: 9,008     65.5 %
2008: 10,024    72.5%

Maxing Out the National Debt Clock
October 09, 2008 10:14 AM ET | Katy Marquardt |

Are you surprised? Times Square's National Debt Clock, which has been tallying up money owed by the U.S. government since 1989, is running out of spaces.

In September 2008, the digital dollar sign was eliminated to make way for an extra digit—the "1" in $10 trillion (the national debt is currently $10.2 trillion). Now, a new clock is in the works that will make room for a quadrillion dollars of debt, according to the Associated Press. Anticipated completion is early 2009.

A little history on the clock: It was created in 1989 by Manhattan real estate developer Seymour Durst to inform the public about the nation's snowballing national debt (back then, it was $2.7 trillion). Seymour died in 1995, and the clock is now owned by his son, Douglas Durst.

According to the Treasury, the national debt has grown more than $500 billion each year since fiscal year 2003. The $700 billion government bailout could send the national debt to more than $11 trillion, says the AP.

http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/

Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Jahn on November 02, 2008, 07:50:27 PM
But that is the least of his concerns. As a human, he will be subjected to enormous pressure to behave according to 'public' expectation. Attention of billions will be on him - bending his will. I am sure he actually can do almost nothing to 'change' the US.

People expect change from him, while not being able to effect it themselves. These 301 million Americans struggle trmendously to change themselves even a little, but for some unknown reason expect Obama and others to change the world, or country or whatnot.

Can Obama change the views of 100 million rednecks or of 18% of electorate constituted by end-timers? Can Obama change any American citizen by his power of the US president?

Nope.

Expect it from him is as good as expect God to change the world and compensate for human stupidity. Having faith in Obama or any other human institution is as good as religion.

We just so badly need a shoulder to lean on and rest our hopes on.
God, president, armed forces, police, shaman next door...
mystic ancient knowledge, light...etc

All the same.

No way will they do what we expect.

Barack Obama has already created change. On the energetic level he has changed the direction but I agree the tension in the US public is enormous and it is a huge task to reform the fundamental structure. There is so much under the surface.

Obama has engaged people, he have "created" new voters, he has created a new way of funding a campaign, he has more money to his campaign than any other candidate before despite that he refused common (fedral?) funding. And that is because of many many small contributions and not large contributions from a few. This is real abundance and that is real engagement of the masses. So yes, he has already changed many citizens.

And he is not alone, if he win he is on top of the whole elected political system with majority for the democrates in all instances, both the congress and the senate. Th US empire may be on the start to end, but I would not underestimate the possibilities for the US to be able to deal with the difficulties.

Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: erik on November 02, 2008, 08:04:11 PM
You do believe that such a change is going to have any lasting effect? Sounds like JFK to me. A little shake up of sleepy minds - something DIFFERENT, but no CHANGE as purposeful action.

You are correct on numbers. 550 billion is the size of likely budget deficit of Obama's government at the last year of his administration (and not the national debt as I said). In 2008 - under Bush -  it is 190 billion.

Quote
"Reality Check: The Cost Of Obama's Pledges"
Wyatt Andrews
CBS News
October 29, 2008

Without question, the Barack Obama infomercial served as a very slick and powerful recitation of the biggest promises he's made as a presidential candidate. But the very bigness of his ideas is the problem: he seems blind to the concept his numbers don't add up.

Obama has already proposed a new stimulus package of $188 billion over two years. His tax cuts will cost $85 billion a year. His "army of new teachers": $18 billion; Renewable energy: $15 billion. CBS News and various independent experts estimate Obama's total first year spending could exceed $280 billion.

Still Obama repeated his claim he can find the money to pay for every proposal.

"I've offered spending cuts above and beyond their cost," he has said.

The fact is the savings Obama has identified do not cover his spending. According to a CBS News estimate, he's around $90 billion short. The Obama campaign disputes this, saying everything including the stimulus is paid for over 10 years. But other analysts say - even presuming Obama saves money in Iraq and chops the federal budget as promised - he falls short.

Let's break all of this down, starting with his highly suspect, and widely discredited, claim that he can find federal "spending cuts beyond the costs" of his promises. Very few independent economists believe he has identified the savings needed to offset his remarkable list of tax credits, tax cuts and spending pledges.

Fact: Even if you believe Obama intends to fix health care, most independent analysts say the cost is massive - $1.2 trillion over ten years, according to the highly respected Lewin Group. When the new Congress wakes up next year to a $1 trillion deficit, and answers the overwhelming new demands for another stimulus package, will the leadership really bite on a health care reform package that digs the deficit hole so much deeper?

And that's just the beginning of what Obama would spend.

Fact: The tax cuts he promises, which are mostly refundable tax credits (code for cash back), will cost $60 billion just in year one, according the National Taxpayers Union, though the Obama campaign's own estimates in July put that figure at $130 billion.

Fact: His new promise to give businesses a $3,000 tax credit for each new job created will cost $40 billion. But economists say this credit is far more likely to benefit companies already planning to expand and will likely not be enough to help companies create new jobs or forestall layoffs.

Fact: Obama's claim he will lower health care premiums by $2,500 is: 1.) guesswork, which is 2.) based on health care savings that might, in a perfect world, happen over 10 years - a fact Obama neatly glosses over.

Fact: Obama, when referring to savings he can make by leaving Iraq ($90 billion, according to Congressional Budget Office estimates), has spent these savings several times over, across several different promises depending on the crowd he's addressing.

Most of the time he spends the Iraq savings in the context of the roads he wants to build; sometimes it's for the teachers he wants to hire. Tonight, he riffed rhetorically on the savings, asking how many scholarships could be funded, or how many schools could be built. In the end though, presuming he really saves $90 billion, he can only spend it once.

Remember he also mentioned rebuilding the military ($7 billion/yr); his education initiative ($18 billion/yr); and his energy initiative ($15 billion/yr). He did not mention the $188 billion that he would spend on the brand new stimulus package he has proposed.

If he closes every loophole as promised, saves every dime from Iraq, raises taxes on the rich and trims the federal budget as he's promised to do "line by line," he still doesn't pay for his list. If he's elected, the first fact hitting his desk will be the figure projecting how much less of a budget he has to work with - thanks to the recession. He gave us a very compelling vision with his ad buy tonight. What he did not give us was any hint of the cold reality he's facing or a sense of how he might prioritize his promises if voters trust him with the White House.
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: tangerine dream on November 03, 2008, 11:14:52 AM

For the record I am a non major-election voter, for the last 10 years.  I've voted a few times in local elections when and where I believed my vote would speak for something.  Once again it comes down to not fighting against.  When it became obvious to me that I was no longer voting for a candidate, but instead voting against the one I disliked the most, I stopped the battle. 


I completely understand and agree with you kaycee.


Here's a youtube y'all might find interesting:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEtZlR3zp4c&eurl=http://bravenewfilms.org/blog/39561-one-million-see-mccain-s-youtube-problem
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Jennifer- on November 03, 2008, 11:43:17 AM
Putting politics aside.. has anyone noticed the light that shines within Obama?

Open your heart and look.. its really quite stunning.

Like I said.. all politics aside...
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: tangerine dream on November 03, 2008, 11:45:33 AM
Putting politics aside.. has anyone noticed the light that shines within Obama?

Open your heart and look.. its really quite stunning.

Like I said.. all politics aside...

I don't follow politics, but I have noticed his light. 
 ;D
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Jennifer- on November 03, 2008, 11:46:36 AM
(http://www.britannica.com/blogs/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/obama1.jpg)
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Angela on November 03, 2008, 11:50:03 AM
Putting politics aside.. has anyone noticed the light that shines within Obama?

Open your heart and look.. its really quite stunning.

Like I said.. all politics aside...

We were just talking about this the other day.  There's something more behind the politics with him.  It's as if he wants to tell us something, but can't right now.  And you're right ... he shines. :)
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Angela on November 03, 2008, 12:01:09 PM
Did anyone watch the presidential debates?  They had an meter ...

 "The audience meter is called a Perception Analyzer Dial described by a news story from SMU as a "palm-sized electronic dial meter."When focus group participants like what they are hearing, they turn the knob on the dial to the right; when they don’t like the candidates or their ideas, they turn the knob to the left.

The results are immediately aggregated into squiggly lines that run across the bottom of the screen, at the same time the candidates are speaking. The advantage of this simultaneous broadcasting of the debate, and the select audience’s reaction to that debate, is that voters across the country can avoid having to think about what the candidates are saying, and instead focus on what some other unknown people think about what the candidates are saying — thus reducing the strain of thinking for oneself. " ... heh! an opinion from this site ;) ... http://www.stinkyjournalism.org/latest-journalism-news-updates-136.php

Anyway ... what I noticed was that, even at the end of the debates when they had a question and answer with this randomly selected group of people and they were all still "undecided", during the debate when Obama spoke the women's meter would go into agreement with him.  The men's meter would go into disagreement.  It was totally reverse when McCain spoke. Interesting.


Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Jennifer- on November 03, 2008, 12:20:41 PM
I did not watch it.

Quote
Anyway ... what I noticed was that, even at the end of the debates when they had a question and answer with this randomly selected group of people and they were all still "undecided", during the debate when Obama spoke the women's meter would go into agreement with him.  The men's meter would go into disagreement.  It was totally reverse when McCain spoke. Interesting.

Yes, that is interesting.
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: nichi on November 03, 2008, 12:43:49 PM
I concur -- he does shine.

Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: daphne on November 03, 2008, 02:45:20 PM
http://www.stinkyjournalism.org/latest-journalism-news-updates-136.php


Fascinating link you posted! Politics seems to be one of those emotive options in life. Nothing much really changes; even Presidents can't do that much.. the 'machinery' is just too unwieldy.. not to mention all those other 'interests' on the sidelines..

I've been following the USA Presidential election process... I find the 'Cult of Personality' rather fascinating. Here, South African politics are very into 'Cult of Personality' and since we are up for elections early next year, its kind of a current hobby of mine -  a not-doing   *lol*
There has been a split out of the ruling party that appears to be the next step in our fledgling democracy. Nothing on the scale of American politics.. though nevertheless rather interesting for Africa.
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: erik on November 03, 2008, 06:31:03 PM
Putting politics aside...

How would you do that? Politics is what Obama DOES. That is what he is committed and dedicated to. That is his whole life as with any lesser commitment you don't get so far.

He has voiced all these promises he is most unlikely to keep.
That is what he does.

Some say it is for 'greater good' as 'useful idiots' need to be recruited at any cost to get the votes, and then do what needs to be done 'for the benefit of the nation'.

Thus, a lie, an unfounded promise here and there is actually for a 'greater good' - to have a slight chance to do even a little bit. Quite like nagual doing his tricks, but one needs an awareness of a nagual to not fall for own lies and tricks. Does he have it? In other words - is there a shortcut, can anybody be naturally (without years of efforts) that strong and have that much awareness?

He may radiate like a radiator, but will it ever have any effect or will it ever actually manifest elsewhere than in recruiting 'useful idiots'?
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: nichi on November 03, 2008, 08:05:32 PM
Who knows the answers to your questions, E? No one -- not yet, anyway.
The man can have a lot of light about him -- it's a fair observation.

More than likely as that office wears upon him, we'll see it a lot less. Right now its's available for the seeing, though. Why should we let your worldview guide us to not see it? I only ask because you seem annoyed that it was mentioned.

It's a rare thing to see a politician with light. I've only seen it once before.
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: erik on November 03, 2008, 08:09:45 PM
More than likely as that office wears upon him, we'll see it a lot less. Right now its's available for the seeing, though. Why should we let your worldview guide us to not see it? I only ask because you seem annoyed that it was mentioned.

How about not letting oneself being carried away by hope? That's my point.
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: daphne on November 03, 2008, 08:11:49 PM
Well.. I have no particular annoyance re the man..  but I don't know about him shining either... didn't see that myself. What I see is a man that came out of literally nowhere, and is now cited to be the next president of one of the most powerful nations in our world. Perhaps I'm skeptical.. but it does make me wonder.. so much "hope" on so many fronts, carrying so many different agendas, all vested in one man?

This is of course all coming from an 'outsider'..  :)
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: nichi on November 03, 2008, 08:12:43 PM
How about not letting oneself being carried away by hope? That's my point.

"Hope" seems to be a theme with you in the last couple of days. Who said anything about it?  He may or may not use that light in office. Frankly, I think the odds are so overwhelmingly against even his survival, that I'm not looking for it to manifest.

But it's nice to see it.
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: erik on November 03, 2008, 08:21:17 PM
Hopes, fears, etc.
But then it's me.
Never mind me. I get periodically fed up with that stuff.
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: nichi on November 03, 2008, 08:21:35 PM
But I'll address hope here.
I haven't had hope in re the US politicians since the 70's.
But I see one thing: the US needs a great leader.  Obama probably will not be that leader, even if he's elected. He'd spend most of his term fighting stereotypes and hatred. He'd be a groundbreaker.

I'm sure "all of the world" can logically see that the US needs a strong leader, but I'm talking about greatness. A true role model, to lead us out of the pits in which we've landed. Someone, in particular, who does not shun the rest of the world.

Maybe I'll see it in my lifetime -- maybe not.
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: erik on November 03, 2008, 08:23:50 PM
You hope there is a way out of the pits...and a leader might show it...
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: nichi on November 03, 2008, 08:33:19 PM
No, I know that there is a way out of the pits -- the pits I'm talking about, that is. I haven't seen any of your writings address those pits, as cleverly critical as you are, and it might be something that you have to "be here" to perceive and know. I'm talking about the psyche of the country.

There's malaise here ... it needs healing. You can put sight of the need for healing in any category you wish ... that's your issue. I don't believe the country is hopeless, though, any more than I believe you are.

It would be a big job, and not something which could happen over night. Were it to be in swing, it would take a generation or 2 for this healing.
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: nichi on November 03, 2008, 08:38:00 PM
(But it surely isn't in swing now.)
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Michael on November 03, 2008, 08:43:50 PM
We don't know what will happen.

A leader can make a difference - viz George Bush, Adolf Hitler, Ashoka, Akbar - and yet, will human nature change?

So much hope and expectation - it is a problem.
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: nichi on November 03, 2008, 08:54:54 PM
We don't know what will happen.

A leader can make a difference - viz George Bush, Adolf Hitler, Ashoka, Akbar - and yet, will human nature change?

So much hope and expectation - it is a problem.

Franklin D Roosevelt was the one in the US who really changed things. Abraham Lincoln before him. We need another like them.

I'd include JFK, but he was only a starter -- as in, he didn't get to finish. He was a good catalyst, though.
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: erik on November 03, 2008, 09:04:52 PM
Franklin D Roosevelt was the one in the US who really changed things. Abraham Lincoln before him. We need another like them.

Yet all they have ever done has brought us to where we are...
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: nichi on November 03, 2008, 09:05:26 PM
Yet all they have ever done has brought us to where we are...

Which means that we dropped the ball.
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: erik on November 03, 2008, 09:06:24 PM
Which means that we dropped the ball.

Which means they played the same game as all the others...
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: tangerine dream on November 03, 2008, 10:04:57 PM
Which means they played the same game as all the others...

They're politicians.. :P

Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: tangerine dream on November 03, 2008, 10:18:34 PM
We are the World


There comes a time
When we head a certain call
When the world must come together as one
There are people dying
And it's time to lend a hand to life
The greatest gift of all

We can't go on
Pretneding day by day
That someone, somewhere will soon make a change
We are all a part of
God's great big family
And the truth, you know love is all we need

[Chorus]
We are the world
We are the children
We are the ones who make a brighter day
So let's start giving
There's a choice we're making
We're saving our own lives
It's true we'll make a better day
Just you and me

Send them your heart
So they'll know that someone cares
And their lives will be stronger and free
As God has shown us by turning stone to bread
So we all must lend a helping hand

[Chorus]
We are the world
We are the children
We are the ones who make a brighter day
So let's start giving
There's a choice we're making
We're saving our own lives
It's true we'll make a better day
Just you and me

When you're down and out
There seems no hope at all
But if you just believe
There's no way we can fall
Well, well, well, well, let us realize
That a change will only come
When we stand together as one

[Chorus]
We are the world
We are the children
We are the ones who make a brighter day
So let's start giving
There's a choice we're making
We're saving our own lives
It's true we'll make a better day
Just you and me
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Jennifer- on November 03, 2008, 10:24:50 PM
How would you do that? Politics is what Obama DOES.

How.. politics is what he does.. not what he is.


Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: nichi on November 03, 2008, 10:31:43 PM
How.. politics is what he does.. not what he is.

Indeed!
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Michael on November 03, 2008, 10:51:24 PM
where did I read, that when it all fell apart, the men were more devastated than the women?
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: erik on November 04, 2008, 12:13:17 AM
How.. politics is what he does.. not what he is.

...and he has the two balls where inner and external are separate? Most unlikely.
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Jennifer- on November 04, 2008, 12:17:55 AM
The light is the same, aware of it or not.
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: erik on November 04, 2008, 12:19:19 AM
The light is the same, aware of it or not.

...and what it is/will be used for?
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: nichi on November 04, 2008, 12:22:33 AM
If he wasn't aware of it, how could he use it?

Have you never met someone full of light, who wasn't the slightest bit savvy about it?

...and what it is/will be used for?
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Jennifer- on November 04, 2008, 12:27:28 AM
...and what it is/will be used for?

If.. and perhaps this is what sparks you.. If.. it is used it will be used to shine.. that is what light does.

What he does or doesnt do.. wasnt the what I stated.. all politics aside.. he shines from within as we all do.. some are just more shiney then others. lol *shrugs

Can you see his light Juhani?
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: erik on November 04, 2008, 12:31:16 AM
If he wasn't aware of it, how could he use it?

If I were his campaign strategist or his sponsor, I could use it, whereas he might be vain enough to enjoy it. Is there a shortage of people with energy utterly indulging themselves?  ;) Why place faith in stranger? Because nobody knows him? That's precisely the election logic.

Have you never met someone full of light, who wasn't the slightest bit savvy about it?

World is full of indulging people.

Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: erik on November 04, 2008, 12:33:03 AM
If.. and perhaps this is what sparks you.. If.. it is used it will be used to shine.. that is what light does.

What he does or doesnt do.. wasnt the what I stated.. all politics aside.. he shines from within as we all do.. some are just more shiney then others. lol *shrugs

Can you see his light Juhani?

I see in his eyes several other things as well.
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Jennifer- on November 04, 2008, 12:38:49 AM
Yes, we all have a choice.
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: tangerine dream on November 04, 2008, 02:41:25 AM
. If.. it is used it will be used to shine.. that is what light does.

 he shines from within as we all do.. some are just more shiney then others. lol *shrugs



 ;D
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Jahn on November 04, 2008, 05:30:07 AM
Putting politics aside.. has anyone noticed the light that shines within Obama?

Open your heart and look.. its really quite stunning.

Like I said.. all politics aside...

Sure, he got IT!
I have felt his last months campaign  on the energy level and he sure does shines.

He has already brought change (and hope) to many citizens that else would not engage in voting. He cannot do miracles but the people can if they strive in the same direction. And as one pupil just said on my TV-screen, if Obama wont be elected to president there might be riots, not just in one town or two but all over the place. That high are the tension right now. Unbelievable. I think this is the closest the US ever will come to a revolution.

I am afraid that I must disagree with Juhanis pessimistic view on what single persons can make for a difference in the historic development.The examples are many Chingis Kahn, Albert Einstein, Hitler, Churchill, Plato, Marx, Jesus from Nazareth, Buddha to name afew, though perhaps Senator Obama doesn't belong to the same division but in my view he surely can be the center of a change of direction. To put it frank, I see a shining Warrior in Barack Obama, he does not deviate from the original beam, and that is what the US need right now, no matter of details in his politics which always can be discussed in terms of pros and cons. He bring in a new energy to a "sick system" and that is what counts on the higher level. Angels follow this election.

 I would said the same things as he does about many things, his words are mine (that is the myth). But I would not trade a second of my life with his. He has a huge challenge ahead and I sure hope that he has a impeccable security team. Maybe he should hire some experts from Israel and the mob to be safe?
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Jennifer- on November 04, 2008, 09:50:08 AM
Quote
Sure, he got IT!
I have felt his last months campaign  on the energy level and he sure does shines.

 :)
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: erik on November 04, 2008, 06:52:44 PM
OK, I am persuaded. Messiah has returned, hallelujah! Now we'll wait and see how he'll take the US  through the Red Sea of trouble.  :)
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Michael on November 04, 2008, 09:01:06 PM
He's not there yet.
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: erik on November 04, 2008, 09:52:42 PM
He's not there yet.

But the Sea of Trouble is.  :)
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Jennifer- on November 04, 2008, 10:21:12 PM
OK, I am persuaded. Messiah has returned, hallelujah! Now we'll wait and see how he'll take the US  through the Red Sea of trouble.  :)

 LOL! Smart ass...  :P All I said is that he shines nicely.. Im not going to hold my breath and wait for miracles!  :-* Messiah





Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: nichi on November 04, 2008, 10:21:35 PM
Chaos
Disorder
Apocalypse
Endtimes
Hopelessness
Despair
Bad Karma
Mayhem
Violence
War
Debt
Death
Disease
Depression
Treachery
Amorality
Corruption
"They're gonna get what they deserve"
The Universal Boogeyman


Anything else, Juhani?
Are you a  t e r r o r i s t?
You're mighty invested in how it all sucks.
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: erik on November 04, 2008, 10:30:12 PM
Chaos
Disorder
Apocalypse
Endtimes
Hopelessness
Despair
Bad Karma
Mayhem
Violence
War
Debt
Death
Disease
Depression
Treachery
Amorality
Corruption
"They're gonna get what they deserve"
The Universal Boogeyman


Anything else, Juhani?
Are you a  t e r r o r i s t?
You're mighty invested in how it all sucks.

Of course I am. I am a TERRORIZING T E R R O R I S T I C  T E R R O R I S T
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Jennifer- on November 04, 2008, 10:30:43 PM
Chaos
Disorder
Apocalypse
Endtimes
Hopelessness
Despair
Bad Karma
Mayhem
Violence
War
Debt
Death
Disease
Depression
Treachery
Amorality
Corruption
"They're gonna get what they deserve"
The Universal Boogeyman



Eh.. dark side of the sun, its always there.

I meant not to stir such fever... politics aside.. he shines.  If nothing else I hope that it's a mirror to those who see it.
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: nichi on November 04, 2008, 10:31:45 PM
Of course I am. I am a TERRORIZING tefforistIC tefforist.

Ok, at least we have finally established that much.
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: erik on November 04, 2008, 10:33:07 PM
Ok, at least we have finally established that much.

Cool, I am finally exposed! Whoa! Naked TERRORIZATORATOR!!!
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: erik on November 04, 2008, 10:35:29 PM
How about you? You can be so very TERRORIZATORIZED that I wonder how very attached you are to your state and all other cultural stuff?
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: nichi on November 04, 2008, 10:35:34 PM
Eh.. dark side of the sun, its always there.

I meant not to stir such fever... politics aside.. he shines.  If nothing else I hope that it's a mirror to those who see it.


Heheh, well you know what they say ... the 3 fatal topics are

1.) politics
2.) religion
3.) the ego

And in this network of forums, I personally add:
4.) enlightenment

I'm glad you brought the shininess up, J!  :-*
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Jennifer- on November 04, 2008, 10:36:46 PM
(http://re3.yt-thm-a04.yimg.com/image/25/f12/778759767)
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: nichi on November 04, 2008, 10:36:55 PM
Cool, I am finally exposed! Whoa! Naked TERRORIZATORATOR!!!

You're running out of letters there!  :)
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: erik on November 04, 2008, 10:38:43 PM
You're running out of letters there!  :)

Not really, but your attachment is something to TERRORIZATORATORIZE about!
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: nichi on November 04, 2008, 10:39:16 PM
How about you? You can be so very TERRORIZATORIZED that I wonder how very attached you are to your state and all other cultural stuff?

I'm not tefforized.
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Jennifer- on November 04, 2008, 10:39:56 PM
Maybe we should all just get naked ...
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Jennifer- on November 04, 2008, 10:43:29 PM
(http://re3.yt-thm-a02.yimg.com/image/25/m4/2876847798)
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: nichi on November 04, 2008, 10:43:39 PM
Oh yes, you are.
Now say - AM NOT!  :)

 :D  :D  :D
Yes, yes, Juhani, I am completely under your spell and guidance.
(Where's the razor blade?)
 :P
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: nichi on November 04, 2008, 10:45:42 PM
(http://re3.yt-thm-a02.yimg.com/image/25/m4/2876847798)

woohoo!
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: nichi on November 04, 2008, 10:57:25 PM
:D  :D  :D
Yes, yes, Juhani, I am completely under your spell and guidance.
(Where's the razor blade?)
 :P

But seriously, E ... your bent is nihilism, it strikes me, which is fine.
You very well could get all your wishes.
But it's certainly my job in my path to survive. I have many bumps in that road, for my own reasons which aren't germane to this thread, but I can't see keeping the spirit of survival in a closet.

To Life!
And Beauty!
If you don't mind.
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: erik on November 04, 2008, 11:31:10 PM
Survival is one thing.
Hope that democratic system (that is soooo kindly forthcoming with regard to lowering any standards and soooo supportive of any kind of indulging) somehow produces a change of itself, is so...different thing.
Yeah, we'll just stop destroying the damn world and wake up. Indeed. People will stop walking down the road of least resistance in all spheres of existence. Yes, indeed. Tomorrow.

But then...I am a useless grumpy fart here.

Merry survival to everyone!  :)
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Jennifer- on November 04, 2008, 11:35:36 PM
The time is now.

(http://www.lesliehawes.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/52708-coyote-in-cul-de-sac.jpg)
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: nichi on November 04, 2008, 11:49:53 PM
Is it - the human mind can be just turned around? The minds of BILLIONS can just be permanently altered?

Have you ever tried to shift the minds of, say, 1 million people? Felt their resistance and inertia and inability to sustain higher frequencies?

It's absolutely a given. Humans suck, the world sucks, change is impossible.
Now what?
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: erik on November 04, 2008, 11:50:39 PM
It's absolutely a given. Humans suck, the world sucks, change is impossible.
Now what?

Spirit can't be kept in the closet.
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: TIOTIT on November 04, 2008, 11:52:03 PM
 ;D
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: nichi on November 04, 2008, 11:53:44 PM
Spirit can't be kept in the closet.

That's right, Juhani!
So why don't you change your focus, so we can turn the volume up on spirit?
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: erik on November 04, 2008, 11:54:54 PM
That's right, Juhani!
So why don't you change your focus, so we can turn the volume up on spirit?

So why don't you accept the inevitable and actually achieve the change of your focus?
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: nichi on November 04, 2008, 11:59:10 PM
So why don't you accept the inevitable and actually achieve the change of your focus?

Because if I argue for my limitations, then they are mine.

What I'm asking you is what happens after one accepts the "inevitable"? Death is always at our shoulder. What do you propose.  Give something constructive for a change. You like to talk about self-indulgence. This constant diatribe of nihilism is the ultimate self-indulgence. It's just as bad as rose-colored glasses --- maybe even worse, for you're feeding the maelstrom.
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: erik on November 05, 2008, 12:03:12 AM
Because if I argue for my limitations, then they are mine.

What I'm asking you is what happens after one accepts the "inevitable"? Death is always at our shoulder. What do you propose.  Give something constructive for a change. You like to talk about self-indulgence. This constant diatribe of nihilism is the ultimate self-indulgence. It's just as bad as rose-colored glasses --- maybe even worse, for you're feeding the maelstrom.

That's fear talking. Like you said 'diabolic' things are being said. :) You say death is behind the shoulder - have you accepted it? No, you're running from it telling yourself you accept it (like the whole Western world). Keep running that's why you need Spirit for. To rescue you. Ask more constructive questions. Fear, fear, fear. Horrible, isn't it? Fear is scary.
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Jennifer- on November 05, 2008, 12:49:52 AM
Is it - the human mind can be just turned around? The minds of BILLIONS can just be permanently altered?

Have you ever tried to shift the minds of, say, 1 million people? Felt their resistance and inertia and inability to sustain higher frequencies?

Sure it is.. Im responsible for my own shift, as is everyone else.

Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Jennifer- on November 05, 2008, 01:01:42 AM
As I go about my house chores this morning Ive turned the local/national news channel on.. the United States is buzzing! The over all energy of the day is very good, people are smiling in mass numbers.. its true.. I can see them broadcast from all over the US.

No matter how you look at it.. that.. is a good thing to witness.

Eh.. politics aside even!

Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: tangerine dream on November 05, 2008, 02:47:39 AM

I'm glad you brought the shininess up, J!  :-*


Me, too.  When I people watch, out in about in a crowd, one of the ways to sidetrack my empathy, so as not to soak up too much stuff is to look for the shiney ones.  It's fun!
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: tangerine dream on November 05, 2008, 02:51:09 AM
Is it - the human mind can be just turned around? The minds of BILLIONS can just be permanently altered?

Have you ever tried to shift the minds of, say, 1 million people? Felt their resistance and inertia and inability to sustain higher frequencies?

Juhani, have you ever shifted many people and felt the upward pull?


Quote from: Windsong
As I go about my house chores this morning Ive turned the local/national news channel on.. the United States is buzzing! The over all energy of the day is very good, people are smiling in mass numbers.. its true.. I can see them broadcast from all over the US.

No matter how you look at it.. that.. is a good thing to witness.


Beautiful!
 :-*
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Jahn on November 05, 2008, 04:48:30 AM
As I go about my house chores this morning Ive turned the local/national news channel on.. the United States is buzzing! The over all energy of the day is very good, people are smiling in mass numbers.. its true.. I can see them broadcast from all over the US.

No matter how you look at it.. that.. is a good thing to witness.

Eh.. politics aside even!



Read that even the republicans has "changed". Noone would be allied with Bush in the Rep. campaign, he is "smoked" as we say here. Also McCain has stated that new ways ... blah blah ... should happen in Washington if he was elected. That McCain do not belong to the old, business as usual wing, in his party. However the Republicans seem to have had a funny rally aginst education, or educated people, that is difficult to understand.

Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Michael on November 05, 2008, 07:08:30 AM
It is one of those amazing shift in the US populous. I see Ralph Nader is trying to help the Republicans again.

There does seem a huge excitement in the US, and elsewhere I should add. Juhani is correct in that this has happened before, and not much changes, however that is not to say leadership is not critical, esp in critical times.

Still we would be foolish to expect such things will turn around the problems which underlie the direction of humanity.

If that is so, then we can forget about that, and just enjoy the party while it lasts.

The interesting thing here is not the leaders, but a deeper movement in the psych of the US. What is that change? Will they give up hamburgers? Will they move away from the arrogance of the last Republican domination period? Is there a deep realisation growing, that is more than economics and politics?

These are questions we asked here in Aust. Plus there has been a sense of disappointment that the Government has not lived up to expectations, but we are still glad the old guard have gone.
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: erik on November 05, 2008, 08:34:17 AM
that is not to say leadership is not critical, esp in critical times.

It is, and by electing one can say in a loud voice that one cares. But that's it. Unfortunately.

I vote always, though, it leads nowhere.
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: tangerine dream on November 05, 2008, 09:50:22 AM

There is no pull
 

Of course there is.
 :)

Title: HOORAY
Post by: nichi on November 05, 2008, 07:43:40 PM
Look, whatever ends up happening -- whether he gives into all the jadedness and corruption, whether he falls flat on his face and fails, whether he can't make good on any of his intentions -- this is so amazing and fantastic that Obama was elected. I'm truly moved and overjoyed.

I do see it as the potential for the beginning of redemption. The changes which need to happen in the US, like I said before, will take at least a generation to put into effect. Probably more. But this is a start -- and you might have to live in the US to know what this means -- to know what a triumph it is. Americans just might get nudged out of their morose helplessness here, wherein there was psychic surrender to the silent, secret, racist police of mafioso ethics.

That's my view, and I'm personally excited that America elected an African-American. You have no idea unless you live here the undercurrent of hatred here which is very much alive. I am so happy for this opportunity and challenge. And I'm so happy that someone who has stepped into international territory literally, beyond something which is old world european, has been the victor. May America get out of its perceptual goldfish bowl and expand its maturity-horizons!

It won't happen overnight. But this is a good start.
Title: Re: HOORAY
Post by: nichi on November 05, 2008, 08:33:02 PM
Barack Obama wins presidency, making history

By Mark Z. Barabak
November 5, 2008
 
Barack Obama, the son of a father from Kenya and a white mother from Kansas, was elected the nation's 44th president Tuesday, breaking the ultimate racial barrier to become the first African American to claim the country's highest office.

A nation founded by slave owners and seared by civil war and generations of racial strife delivered a smashing electoral college victory to the 47-year-old first-term senator from Illinois, who forged a broad, multiracial, multiethnic coalition. His victory was a leap in the march toward equality: when Obama was born, people with his skin color could not even vote in parts of America, and many were killed for trying.

"If there is anyone out there who still doubts that America is a place where all things are possible, who still wonders if the dream of our founders is alive in our time, who still questions the power of our democracy, tonight is your answer," Obama told more than 240,000 celebrants gathered along Chicago's waterfront. Many had tears streaking their faces.

"It's been a long time coming," said Obama, who strode on stage with his wife, Michelle, and their two daughters, Sasha and Malia. "But tonight, because of what we did on this day, in this election, at this defining moment, change has come to America."

Obama was beating Republican John McCain in every state Democrats carried four years ago, including Pennsylvania, which McCain had worked vigorously to pry away. Obama also made significant inroads into Republican turf, carrying Ohio, Colorado, Indiana and Virginia; the latter two voted Democratic for the first time in more than 40 years. He won the swing states of Florida, Iowa and New Mexico, which backed President Bush in 2004.

In winning the White House, Obama modified the electorate:About 1 in 10 of those casting ballots Tuesday were doing so for the first time. Though that number was about the same as four years ago, most of the newcomers were younger than 30, about a fifth were black, and a fifth were Latino. That was greater than their share of the overall population, and those groups voted overwhelmingly for Obama.

He also won large majorities of female, black and Latino voters. Although he lost among white voters, Obama did better than Democratic nominee John F. Kerry in 2004.

Voters also handed Obama a fortified congressional majority, as Democrats picked up at least five seats in the Senate and more than a dozen in the House. The party knocked off at least two GOP incumbents, including North Carolina Sen. Elizabeth Dole.

With Obama leading every preelection poll, his hometown of Chicago was primed for a celebration. Downtown skyscrapers stayed lighted for the occasion on an improbably warm November night. At Grant Park, giant video screens were tuned to CNN, and raucous cheers erupted each time a state fell Obama's way, until finally victory came just a few moments after polls closed on the West Coast.

Shortly after, Arizona Sen. McCain called the president-elect to concede. President Bush then telephoned with his congratulations.

In Phoenix, McCain, 72, delivered a gracious concession speech that nodded to history and his erstwhile foe.

"We have come to the end of a long journey," a somber McCain said. "The American people have spoken, and they have spoken clearly. This is an historic election, and I recognize the special significance it has for African Americans and the special pride that must be theirs tonight."

He shushed the crowd when they booed Obama -- "Please," McCain said, motioning for silence -- and urged them to join him in working with the incoming president for the greater good of the country. "Whatever our differences," McCain said, "we are fellow Americans."

McCain, burdened by his party's frayed image, prevailed in a band of states that make up a shrinking Republican base, mainly in the South, the Plains and parts of the interior West.

Two of the hardest-fought states -- North Carolina and Missouri -- were too close to call.

For most voters, the sagging economy was the topmost concern -- a dynamic that played strongly to the Democrat's favor. Six in 10 voters said the economy was the most important issue facing the nation, according to exit polls -- far more than cited energy, Iraq, terrorism or healthcare.

Obama alluded to those worries and others in his victory speech, offering a note of sobriety amid the celebration.

"The road ahead will be long," he said. "Our climb will be steep. We may not get there in one year, or even one term. But America, I have never been more hopeful than I am tonight that we will get there. I promise you, we as a people will get there."

Voters flocked to the polls in record numbers Tuesday, continuing a pattern of electoral exuberance that started in the primary season.

There were scattered voting problems reported throughout the day, including long lines, malfunctioning voting machines and mislaid ballots. But there was nothing like Florida's infamous "butterfly ballot" fiasco, which sent the 2000 presidential contest into several weeks of overtime before the U.S. Supreme Court stepped in to settle the race.

Mostly, there was patience, good cheer, and for many, pride in taking part in a slice of history, whatever the result; had McCain won, his running mate, Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin, would have been the first woman to serve as vice president.

Lines began forming across the country before the sun had risen, with queues starting at 4 a.m. in New York City. The outcome across most of the Democratic-leaning Northeast was never in doubt, but many felt it was their responsibility -- and privilege -- to vote.

"I needed to cast my own ballot today, not just because it's my duty as a citizen but because for once it feels like it counts," said Eric Schwartz, 36, a computer specialist on New York's Upper West Side. "It's a more global feeling. Like I needed to make a mark on a day when things matter. Today, everyone matters."

Obama will be one of the youngest presidents in American history, the first born outside the continental United States (in Hawaii) and only the third to move directly from the Senate to the White House.

He burst on the national political scene just over four years ago, with an electrifying keynote address to the Democratic National Convention in Boston. His soaring speech previewed themes he would reprise in his presidential bid, including a call to end the partisanship symbolized by a country divided into Republican red and Democratic blue.

Months after that address, Obama won his Senate seat, and there was immediate talk of a run for president. The speculation, however, vastly understated the challenge facing Obama, who by his own admission entered the crowded Democratic field as an underdog. His victory over New York Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton after a long, contentious primary season was in itself a major political upset.

Contrary to the wisdom at the time, the battle did not sap but rather strengthened Obama. He built campaign organizations in traditionally Republican states, such as Nevada, North Carolina, Colorado and Indiana, that came into play in the fall thanks to the groundwork laid in the spring.

Obama also became a better, more substantive candidate and a much stronger debater, which served him well in his three matchups with McCain. Obama's unflappable performance on stage and steady response to the Wall Street meltdown helped allay voter concerns about his judgment, maturity and readiness to assume office, undercutting what was perhaps McCain's strongest argument against the freshman lawmaker.

For all the wild celebration -- in Los Angeles, New York, Kenya and outside the gates of the White House -- there were quieter moments Tuesday that captured the weight of history.

Former U.N. Ambassador Andrew Young, a veteran of civil rights protests in Selma and Birmingham, Ala., and other racial flash points, was among hundreds of black Atlantans who crowded the pews for an election-watch party at the Rev. Martin Luther King's Ebenezer Baptist Church. When CNN called Pennsylvania, an early harbinger, Young pulled out a handkerchief and dabbed away tears.

Later, in Chicago, Obama recalled images of that turbulent time: "the buses in Montgomery, the hoses in Birmingham, a bridge in Selma, and a preacher from Atlanta who told a people, 'We shall overcome.' "

He spoke of other triumphal moments: landing a man on the moon and winning the Cold War. "America, we have come so far. We have seen so much. But there is so much more to do," Obama said. "This is our chance to answer that call. This is our moment. This is our time."

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/front/la-na-ledeall5-2008nov05,0,4114011.story


Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: tangerine dream on November 05, 2008, 10:06:56 PM

I assume

 

That's not very Warrior of you....
 ;)
Title: .
Post by: nichi on November 05, 2008, 10:25:26 PM
[removed per possible virus]
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: tangerine dream on November 05, 2008, 10:27:55 PM
I like to watch these clips without sound.   It's interesting to watch the body language of people and also to see the shininess Jen was speaking of.
 ;D
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: tangerine dream on November 05, 2008, 10:37:04 PM
Apparently you have nothing substantial to say, only wishful thinking, as usual.

This game of yours is quite fascinating to observe.
Title: Re: HOORAY
Post by: Michael on November 05, 2008, 10:38:50 PM
I do see it as the potential for the beginning of redemption. The changes which need to happen in the US, like I said before, will take at least a generation to put into effect. Probably more. But this is a start -- and you might have to live in the US to know what this means -- to know what a triumph it is. Americans just might get nudged out of their morose helplessness here, wherein there was psychic surrender to the silent, secret, racist police of mafioso ethics.

Did any of you US citizens vote?
Title: Re: HOORAY
Post by: tangerine dream on November 05, 2008, 10:46:52 PM
Did any of you US citizens vote?

I am a non-voter traditionally, but if I was an American, this is an election I would have considered voting in.

Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Michael on November 05, 2008, 10:52:55 PM
It is an amazing moment for people watchers. I feel another side of Americans has come out and spoken in overwhelming volume that they want a change for the better. That is a good sign.

I have been listening to commentaries on the trip to Sydney today, and most say that he will be assailed from the Left, as he will simply not be able to deliver - no money left. A decade of suppressed yearnings of the Left of US politics will have to be suppressed again, as the only game in town is survival - firstly economic survival.

I have been watching this man, and I am willing to give him some credit - his rhetoric is impressive, and that is not an insubstantial thing, as he will need to articulate to the people, but the big question: is he the man for the job that has to be done?

maybe... just maybe the US might be lucky this time.

I am not an adherer of 'hope'. I use it like I use a good strong back wind, but I never rely on it for my actions or intent. Yet in this case, I will allow myself to hope this man succeeds, because the world needs these leaders like never before.

The US, and the world, have good reason to celebrate. Dangerous eyes are watching, but this guy could just slip through their net. But if he doesn't, then the task will remain, and another will be found. I sense humanity is at a powerful crossroads, and there will be many worthy people rising to the fore - even some here in this forum.
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Michael on November 05, 2008, 10:56:09 PM
I was also impressed with McCain's speech. He had some good stuff that man - pity they didn't let him at it a lot sooner.
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Michael on November 05, 2008, 11:05:40 PM
Here is an interesting article, originally from the Washington Post:

Why Sarah Palin could be last in a line of culture warriors (http://www.smh.com.au/news/us-election/last-of-the-culture-warriors/2008/11/05/1225560833540.html)

Title: Re: HOORAY
Post by: Jahn on November 06, 2008, 04:46:59 AM

In Phoenix, McCain, 72, delivered a gracious concession speech that nodded to history and his erstwhile foe.

"We have come to the end of a long journey," a somber McCain said. "The American people have spoken, and they have spoken clearly. This is an historic election, and I recognize the special significance it has for African Americans and the special pride that must be theirs tonight."

He shushed the crowd when they booed Obama -- "Please," McCain said, motioning for silence -- and urged them to join him in working with the incoming president for the greater good of the country. "Whatever our differences," McCain said, "we are fellow Americans."

I saw a part the speech of McCain, I think he was a good sportsman, and a good loser. Now he can retire with honor.
Title: A young Nelson Mandela
Post by: Jahn on November 06, 2008, 04:55:40 AM
Barack in Berlin, July 2008

What I see in Barack Obama is actually a young Nelson Mandela. I must admit that I have difficulties to accept some male Africaans as being ... hmm ... civilized. There are a few guest students here so I meet a few in the corridors, they are of course polite but often, when I meet an African student it is like two UFO's meeting.

But when it comes to Nelson Mandela I sense so much integrity, so much love and wisdom and alignment to the Nagual that one experience something beyond physical body and culture. A task that unite us, the wish to reform old patterns, the desire to bring in light into a dark system. But I am no politician, I am a grey dull researcher.
Title: Listen to a Interview with the Governer of Michigan
Post by: Jahn on November 06, 2008, 05:08:52 AM
This was sent Yesterday before the final election. The interviews is perhaps some weeks old.
The Governor Jennifer Granholm has her roots in Sweden. But please don't be afraid of the Swedish in the beginning of the video, after about 40 sec. the interview starts and it is all in English.

To get Full Screen, please click on "Fullskärm" to the right below the video.

The next man "Isakson - (son of Isak) has also a root from Sweden while the third person interviewed Thurber is a professional in polls that has some personal knowledge and experiences about both Obama and McCain.

http://svt.se/svt/road/Classic/shared/mediacenter/index.jsp?&d=73434
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Michael on November 06, 2008, 08:40:34 AM
what do I click on when I get to that page - it's all in gobbledygook.
Title: Re: HOORAY
Post by: Quantum Shaman on November 06, 2008, 03:25:13 PM
Did any of you US citizens vote?

I decided more or less at the last minute to vote on a couple of things.  Voted for the president.  Voted for a proposition that demands more humane treatment of commercial farm animals.  And I voted against Prop 8, which unfortunately passed, and bans gay marriage in California.  This morning, in the aftermath of the election, I fired off a rant about the idiocy of a fear-based religion which is still controlling the minds of most of the US population.  I'll spare Soma from the rant, but if anyone cares to read it, it's on my Live Journal at...

http://quantumshaman.livejournal.com/#entry_78866

Overall, I see very little purpose in voting these days.  The elctions here aren't really decided by "the people", but by the lobbyists and the electoral college, and the candidates with the most $$$ to spend on their campaigns.  Voting is just a formality, giving us the illusion that we have "power," when all evidence points sharply in the other direction.

Am I a cynic?  You betcha!  :o
Title: Re: HOORAY
Post by: Quantum Shaman on November 06, 2008, 03:52:20 PM
I decided more or less at the last minute to vote on a couple of things.  Voted for the president.  Voted for a proposition that demands more humane treatment of commercial farm animals.  And I voted against Prop 8, which unfortunately passed, and bans gay marriage in California.  This morning, in the aftermath of the election, I fired off a rant about the idiocy of a fear-based religion which is still controlling the minds of most of the US population.  I'll spare Soma from the rant, but if anyone cares to read it, it's on my Live Journal at...

http://quantumshaman.livejournal.com/#entry_78866

Overall, I see very little purpose in voting these days.  The elctions here aren't really decided by "the people", but by the lobbyists and the electoral college, and the candidates with the most $$$ to spend on their campaigns.  Voting is just a formality, giving us the illusion that we have "power," when all evidence points sharply in the other direction.

Am I a cynic?  You betcha!  :o

Wrote this prior to reading the whole thread from the past few days.  Sorry, folks, but I have to agree with Juhani about a few things - not the least of which is the acceptance of the fact that nothing really changes.  We have a new president in the White House, but until the SPIRIT of this country finds itself again, even if Obama really IS the messiah, he will find himself surrounded largely by a population of indulgent sheeple.  Sorry - but I've lived here for 53 years, and watched a few presidents come and go - enough to know that the guy in office can serve as a role model, but if the PEOPLE aren't willing to change, then change isn't going to happen at any sort of cultural/social/spiritual level.

Oh, I've watched this election and seen a lot of people telling themselves that "If only we get Obama in the White House, things will change!"  What they don't realize is that they are more or less just repeating his campaign slogan.  Programming, in other words, though they might even believe it is their own original thought.

Don't get me wrong.  I voted for the guy myself - mainly because a good friend of mine knew I wasn't planning to vote at all.  Since it didn't really matter to me one way or the other (except I do acknowledge that Palin was one scary old heifer!), I more or less voted for the dude as a favor to my friend (who is far more politically oriented and informed than I would ever pretend to be).  So sue me... I'm not politically motivated because, in the grand scheme of things, none of this is going to matter in a million years.  But I digress...

Point being - any "leader" is only as good as his "followers".  And while I suspect Obama can be a good leader, I utterly lack faith in his potential followers - i.e., the American public.  I'd love to be proven wrong, but I rather doubt that will happen.  America has been described as a nation that has lost its soul - and after everything I've observed in the course of this election, I am inclined to agree.  Until THAT changes, I see very little hope for any real social or cultural raising of awareness.

Sorry to be so "negative", but I don't think rose-colored glasses are going to change the world.  Any "change" has to come at the level of spirit - and, sadly, most of the people I encounter these days aren't much interested in spirit.  They want their MTV, their fast food wrapped in six layers of packaging, and their comforting little belief systems that come through the rhetoric of their fear-based religion.  Not much room for spirit in any of that.

I am very willing to be proven wrong.  Please - prove me wrong!   8)
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: nichi on November 06, 2008, 04:07:31 PM
Rose-colored glasses are bad   ... so is constant nihilism. Me for something in the middle, a little more balanced.
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: nichi on November 06, 2008, 05:09:48 PM
(At least until I have the means to permanently retreat to Mt Kailish.)
Title: Re: HOORAY
Post by: daphne on November 06, 2008, 05:29:29 PM

Sorry to be so "negative", but I don't think rose-colored glasses are going to change the world.  Any "change" has to come at the level of spirit - and, sadly, most of the people I encounter these days aren't much interested in spirit.  They want their MTV, their fast food wrapped in six layers of packaging, and their comforting little belief systems that come through the rhetoric of their fear-based religion.  Not much room for spirit in any of that.

I am very willing to be proven wrong.  Please - prove me wrong!   8)

I read your rant... excellent it was!

Perception is an interesting animal. Both 'negative' and 'rose-coloured' are really meaningless... what is, is.

Don't know that I could prove you wrong, or even care to.  *lol*

I am utterly fascinated by the inconsistency in the polls in California, Florida and Arizona. It appears that not all rights are equal!   :)
Title: Re: HOORAY
Post by: nichi on November 06, 2008, 05:34:39 PM
Overall, I see very little purpose in voting these days.  The elctions here aren't really decided by "the people", but by the lobbyists and the electoral college, and the candidates with the most $$$ to spend on their campaigns.  Voting is just a formality, giving us the illusion that we have "power," when all evidence points sharply in the other direction.

I agreed completely with this, until  this past Tuesday.
The US has a lot of history and good reason to be skeptical about the voting process -- in fact, about the whole campaign process.  For me it starts with Watergate and ends with the stolen election/Florida fiasco of 2000.  There's corruption in the voting technology. And that electoral college thing has always mystified me.

However, with good campaign-planning-for-districts and an overwhelming voter turnout, even the electoral college can't get away with too much funny business. I think we saw the evidence of that on Tuesday. I can't remember the figure I read now, but the comparative turnout this last time was in the millions -- millions more voted this last time than ever have in the 20th century.  Some who voted, voted for the first time in their lives. That's impressive. And consequently, this most improbable candidate won. So, if enough people believe that voting counts for something and actually turn out to vote ... voting will count for something.  About this outcome, I was pleasantly surprised.

Having said all that, though, I'm completely stunned by the results in California. I can hardly believe it: California is about the most liberal of the 50 states. To boot, while I was there this summer, gay marriage was voted in! So how could there be this turnaround? It's a grave day.
Title: Re: HOORAY
Post by: daphne on November 06, 2008, 08:04:09 PM

Having said that, though, I'm completely stunned by the results in California. I can hardly believe it: California is about the most liberal of the 50 states. To boot, while I was there this summer, gay marriage was voted in! So how could there be this turnaround? It's a grave day.


Because not all those who vote for equality accept that equality for all. Even "liberalism" is selective.
Perhaps now that there has been some progress on the race issue, the gender et al issue may have its turn too.

Same thing happens here in South Africa. Everyone wants equality, but as long as it is their definition of equality, and on their terms.
Really all about fear... same-sex marriage is unChristian, unMoslem and unJewish... people are still rather religious.. after all.. God is on their side. (sigh.. yeah.. being rather facetious here... though.. such is the power of belief)
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: nichi on November 06, 2008, 08:15:33 PM
The importance of aspects like "belief", "hope", "pessimism", "optimism", and the like -- whatever floats yer boat there -- is that those aspects spur Action. In other words, a would-be voter believes, for instance, that a vote makes a difference: therefore, s/he votes. Likewise, a would-be voter believes that a vote makes no difference at all: therefore, s/he doesn't vote.  (There are other reasons to vote-or-not-vote: this is just a for-instance.)

Concomitantly, one may or may not subscribe to or value "hope". However, the act of "hoping" brought millions more out to the voting booths. (That, and some reportedly just wanted to be part of the history, which in and of itself was an act of optimism.) "Hope" was central to Obama's platform. Clever man.

So what I'm saying here is that whether or not one subscribes to the power of hope in one's own path, one can't deny that it is a powerful catalyst for action out there in the mainstream, as disappointingly predictable as that might be to us 'sophisticated', duly-jaded or ostensibly-"detached" warrior types.
Title: Re: HOORAY
Post by: nichi on November 06, 2008, 08:17:53 PM
Because not all those who vote for equality accept that equality for all. Even "liberalism" is selective.
Perhaps now that there has been some progress on the race issue, the gender et al issue may have its turn too.

Same thing happens here in South Africa. Everyone wants equality, but as long as it is their definition of equality, and on their terms.
Really all about fear... same-sex marriage is unChristian, unMoslem and unJewish... people are still rather religious.. after all.. God is on their side. (sigh.. yeah.. being rather facetious here... though.. such is the power of belief)

You're no doubt right, Daph! The thing I was most ponderous about was that it was voted "in" just months earlier.  Some faction(s) went to a lot of trouble to get it kicked out! 
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: nichi on November 06, 2008, 08:48:09 PM
The importance of aspects like "belief", "hope", "pessimism", "optimism", and the like -- whatever floats yer boat there -- is that those aspects spurn Action. In other words, a would-be voter believes, for instance, that a vote makes a difference: therefore, s/he votes. Likewise, a would-be voter believes that a vote makes no difference at all: therefore, s/he doesn't vote.  (There are other reasons to vote-or-not-vote: this is just a for-instance.)

Concomitantly, one may or may not subscribe to or value "hope". However, the act of "hoping" brought millions more out to the voting booths. (That, and some reportedly just wanted to be part of the history, which in and of itself was an act of optimism.) "Hope" was central to Obama's platform. Clever man.

So what I'm saying here is that whether or not one subscribes to the power of hope in one's own path, one can't deny that it is a powerful catalyst for action out there in the mainstream, as disappointingly predictable as that might be to us 'sophisticated', duly-jaded or ostensibly-"detached" warrior types.

Part of me is definitely "digging" it. It reminds me of the late 60's/early 70's, when many of us were trying to "give peace a chance". We subversives!

Of course, that ended badly, and my personal "aha" moment there was, 3 assassinations later, the Kent State shootings, the heels of which were followed quickly by Watergate. The messages were "We'll kill you if you keep it up," and "You can count on absolutely nothing - nothing is sacred, and democracy is a lie."

I know I'm not alone in the subsequent apprehension of the zeitgeist of discouragement.

So am I happy that many stepped into the dream of democracy and peace again? Yes.
Will it last? I fear not -- no, it won't last, but likewise, I'm keeping my projections and disappointment out of it. You just never know what can happen.
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Jennifer- on November 06, 2008, 09:59:39 PM
My thoughts at the moment (which are always given to the winds of change) written for another forum and copied here in light of sharing with this thread and lack of time/interest to rewrite.. lol ;)

Quote
I am pleased to say that the new president of the United States is Barack Obama! Its an interesting and exciting time to be a US citizen, to witness the acceptance and growth as a unit toward peace and change is beautiful. 

Im proud in a humble way to see a glimmer of maturity within a very young culture.. to set aside social conditions and honour an African American man as well as a woman to run in this election for white house is amazing.

I turned the local/national news on yesterday as I went about my house chores.. and saw mass groups of American people standing together and smiling.. yes.. smiling! It matters not the reason.. the smiles, the heart.. the unity.. that matters.

My son is 15 years old, which gives me close up view of the american youth. May they blossem from the waters of the adversities to come. May they have eyes to see and feel the earth calling beneith their heavy footsteps and the heart to follow what they find is truth.

Peace be with you, Jennifer

Quote
Im getting a feeling of fear as well.. fear that he cant make a change for the better.. what I find interesting is what people consider better and the passing of a torch they themselves should carry.

In my humble opinion which is very small and very much just a slight passing of wind through the trees, things arnt going to just get better.. what has been done is done and the results of that will come to front as all things do..  say things do dive into the depths of what is considered hell on earth to most Americans, perhaps this is a turning of the universal wheel where all things must die to be reborn anew.

No man alone can stop that wheel from turning from the momentum of the past rolling heavy on the earth.. but.. as a leader he can keep the hearts alive and shift the eyes to a new horizon giving them a land to fly towards and a reason to strengthen their will toward healing.

Obama has the shine to lift the hearts.. we saw that in millions of people yesterday. If shit hits the fan as my mother would say.. I think the United States will/could embrace this stance.. and that is what will unite the people to stand through it.

Awareness comes on the wings of heart.. when people take a stance of survival, when they embrace and grab onto the strings of life and take action.. all things are possible. This is experienced alone on a individual level and united as a whole when discovered that in our own aloneness we are infact the same as everthing thing else.


I agree with you XXX, its a historic change.

Change is a step into the unknown..

It takes some guts to do that..

I like it.

:) Jennifer

What Im saying is.. a change has already happened. The US elected both a African American and a Woman into the standings for Whitehouse!

My grandfather would roll in his grave if such was possible.. lol

Ive seen this acceptance in my own family when my step sister married an African a few years ago. My father out of ignorance (he has never even known an African) grew up with a fear or dislike of other race..due to social conditioning. Now I see him embrace his beautiful being from Africa right in his living room during holidays!

Its wonderful.

Its a small step I know.. but I see it as a step in a good direction so I honor it for what it is..

Unless people are forced to seek within due to economic crisis or other I dont see other changes the people think will magicaly appear due to a new president... man, woman, black, green, purple or orange.

Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: tangerine dream on November 06, 2008, 10:03:53 PM
My thoughts at the moment (which are always given to the winds of change) written for another forum and copied here in light of sharing with this thread and lack of time/interest to rewrite.. lol ;)

What Im saying is.. a change has already happened. The US elected both a African American and a Woman into the standings for Whitehouse!

My grandfather would roll in his grave if such was possible.. lol

Ive seen this acceptance in my own family when my step sister married an African a few years ago. My father out of ignorance (he has never even known an African) grew up with a fear or dislike of other race..due to social conditioning. Now I see him embrace his beautiful being from Africa right in his living room during holidays!

Its wonderful.

Its a small step I know.. but I see it as a step in a good direction so I honor it for what it is..

Unless people are forced to seek within due to economic crisis or other I dont see other changes the people think will magicaly appear due to a new president... man, woman, black, green, purple or orange.



You said it sister! :-*
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Jennifer- on November 06, 2008, 10:12:00 PM
Quote
Any "change" has to come at the level of spirit - and, sadly, most of the people I encounter these days aren't much interested in spirit.  They want their MTV, their fast food wrapped in six layers of packaging, and their comforting little belief systems that come through the rhetoric of their fear-based religion.  Not much room for spirit in any of that.

I agree Della, and this change isnt going to come easy if it does.. its going to come under the footsteps of a giant that stomps out all the indulging and ignorance.. it could come as the economic world crashes and people are forced into survival mode.. or many other forms of crisis.

Where I do slip on the rose colored glasses and delight in just a bit of hope is that a small number of people will set aside their hate and be filled with love instead.. with love all things are possible.. just maybe a few of them will take a good look within...

Which could indeed create a healthier parental stance and in the future.. the children of today.. could.. could... see things much differently.
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: tangerine dream on November 06, 2008, 10:16:49 PM
I agree Della, and this change isnt going to come easy if it does.. its going to come under the footsteps of a giant that stomps out all the indulging and ignorance.. it could come as the economic world crashes and people are forced into survival mode.. or many other forms of crisis.

Where I do slip on the rose colored glasses and delight in just a bit of hope is that a small number of people will set aside their hate and be filled with love instead.. with love all things are possible.. just maybe a few of them will take a good look within...

Which could indeed create a healthier parental stance and in the future.. the children of today.. could.. could... see things much differently.


Jen,
You are speaking my mind this morning.  Thank you!

Love you
 :-*
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Jennifer- on November 06, 2008, 10:22:49 PM
Quote
Vicki-So what I'm saying here is that whether or not one subscribes to the power of hope in one's own path, one can't deny that it is a powerful catalyst for action out there in the mainstream

Mainstream needs a little bit of hope imo.. without it.. we can clearly see the 'flower it' attitude of many people.. with a little bit of hope.. perhaps if they can see they can do just a little bit in their own life it makes a huge difference.

Even if its accepting the black man next door and sharing a smile.. it changes..

Perception.
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Jennifer- on November 06, 2008, 10:23:40 PM
Jen,
You are speaking my mind this morning.  Thank you!

Love you
 :-*

Namaste' Lori Ann

Love you!  :-*
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Michael on November 06, 2008, 10:51:29 PM
good to see you guys trying to make sense of this.
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: nichi on November 06, 2008, 11:43:31 PM
Mainstream needs a little bit of hope imo.. without it.. we can clearly see the 'flower it' attitude of many people.. with a little bit of hope.. perhaps if they can see they can do just a little bit in their own life it makes a huge difference.

Even if its accepting the black man next door and sharing a smile.. it changes..

Perception.

Yes, yes! Every little scrap of good will counts!
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Quantum Shaman on November 07, 2008, 03:17:02 AM
Yes, yes! Every little scrap of good will counts!

Hi, Vicki... Jen... and everyone else in this thread...

Vicki, I'm just attaching this to your post because it's the most succinct.  "Every little scrap of good will counts."  That seems to be the sentiment of many in this thread, however I would like to ask a simple question:  How?

Don't get me wrong.  I don't necessarily disagree.  I'm just trying to understand how hope or good will is going to change anything on a national or global level.  Seriously.  What is the process by which that change may occur?  We talk about love and good will, but even if you, me, Jen, Lori and the rest of us Somans were to go out and "spread the joy", I'm not really sure how I see that it is going to matter except to those of us who are do-ing it.  We cannot save the world. We can only effect change within ourselves.  And while I see that those of us here are do-ing that, it is clear that "the world" at large isn't much interested.  Just what is.

And that brings me to a point that's been kicked around over at TSW on and off for years.  Basically, it has really started to appear to me that there are at least two different species of humans on the planet (probably more, but for the sake of argument, let's jut talk about two).  There are "the humans" and there are "the seekers" (sorry, don't have a better word for it).  They look the same externally, but their inner mechanisms function on extremely different frequencies - so they are largely unable to understand one another.  Ever tried talking to a fundy preacher, for example?  NOT on the same frequency.  Not even in the same world.  Ever tried talking to a born-again bliss-ninnie?  Same problem - whether perceiving himself to be saved by Jesus or enlightened by virtue of having become a vegetarian, still not in the same world.

So... my point here is that I think we are attempting to communicate with a species that may not be CAPABLE of communicating.  It's not just that our "language" is different.  The concepts themselves are so at opposite ends of the spectrum that what I am calling a tree, the humans are calling a missile, and vice versa.  Communication break-down.  No common language.

So we talk about love and hope (both of which I am quite fond of), but at what level of reality can we really APPLY that?  And, to be perfectly Toltec about it - is it even our "problem" beyond a certain point?  I didn't see don Juan out trying to save the planet by spreading good cheer.  *LOL*  Not that he would have anything against it, but he focused his energies on those he COULD help - other warriors, people who were making at least some effort toward their own evolution.

So, again forgive me if I'm appearing "negative," but I'm trying to understand HOW hope and love are really going to make any difference, except within OURSELVES.  Absolutely - "Love is the reason" - no argument, total agreeement.  But trying to communicate "love" to a species that speaks in terms of war and bigotry and hate-mongering and fear-mongering... er... isn't that rather like trying to teach a pig to sing?  After awhile, it wastes YOUR time and annoys the pig.  So... what is really gained?

Now, with that said, I'm not a nihilist.  But I DO think there comes a time when we need to focus on what we CAN do rather than what we WISH were true.  I'm old enough to have lived through the 60s - that turbulent era of peace, love, dope, war, etc.  We marched for peace and wore flowers in our hair and ate a lot of tofu, but ultimately the "world" still went to hell around us.  Ugly truth.  So - my question is simply this:  what is an EFFICIENT use of energy in a world where we are essentially not the "dominat" species?  Sorry to be brutal here, but do we try to "save the apes" or do we focus our energy on evolution?

Ugly questions.  Very ugly.  Not my intent to rain on anyone's parade, but I think these are questions that must be asked if we are going to be honest with ourselves.  It's perfectly reasonable and rational to have that hope and love within ourselves, and even spread it around to others - but my experience has shown that if we think it's going to make a difference in "the world", we are sadly mistaken. 

What it all boils down to? I have come to see "hope" and "love" as positions of the assemblage point - very positive and potentially powerful.  But I also clearly *see* that love and hope alone are not going to be enough, simply because they can potentially blind us to the need for action - the responsibility of the Self in the equation of evolution.  So, if love and hope are positions of the assemblage point (mindsets), what is the best possible use of that energy in our day to day lives?  Are we trying to "save the world", or do we "save the world" by saving ourselves?

I keep going back to the analogy of the plane.  If the oxygen masks drop, your FIRST responsibility is to yourself.  If you're being altruistic and trying to put everyone else's mask on for them, you run the risk of passing out and then you're useless to all, including yourself.

So, ultimately, my caution here is not to get too caught up in the IDEAS of "love" or "hope".  They're great motivators - but being a stalker, I am compelled to ask the next question:  how does that translate to ACTION in the real world?  I honestly don't think it's as simple as saying "We have to set a good example." That's just too easy, and too much of an abdication of responsibility. 

Just some rambling thoughts which probably won't set well with some.  Apologies for the intrusion, but at the same time, I feel it is a necessary question if we are committed to the path with heart. 
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: nichi on November 07, 2008, 03:57:56 AM
Della, I'll repeat --- where I'm currently at is finding a balance between rose-colored glasses and constant nihilism, viewing both stances askance.
I've pretty much addressed my approach to "hope" as well. I haven't really gone on a "love" spiel, so not sure how that is lumped in for ya.

So our mileages vary on this matter, apparently --- no biggie!
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Quantum Shaman on November 07, 2008, 04:22:23 AM
Della, I'll repeat --- where I'm currently at is finding a balance between rose-colored glasses and constant nihilism, viewing both stances askance.
I've pretty much addressed my approach to "hope" as well. I haven't really gone on a "love" spiel, so not sure how that is lumped in for ya.

So our mileages vary on this matter, apparently --- no biggie!

Like I said at the beginning of my post, I only appended it to your post 'cuz yours was the most succinct.   The terms "love" and "hope" were both used in the thread, so none of it was intended "personally" toward you.  :)

As for mileage... I'm just asking the question.  How do we transform our "hope" into action?  The question isn't meant to offend.
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: nichi on November 07, 2008, 05:05:33 AM
You know, I hate talking politics -- and I rarely do. It's extremely rare that I have anything positive to say about it. This might be a once-in-a lifetime event for me, since JFK, anyway --- but then I was a child and it doesn't really count.
 
The day my participation in this thread began came from a weariness I had of all the fear-mongering that goes on in this forum at times.  That was my point to begin with --- my question was, 'What now?' The world sucks, it's going to hell in a handbasket -- now what? Obviously, we attend to our own lives and paths, our own development of our awareness, but when the fear-mongering material keeps coming up again and again and again, then we're off the subject of our respective paths and awareness anyway.

So you ask about "hope". I'll just give you what I already have said about it:

Quote
The importance of aspects like "belief", "hope", "pessimism", "optimism", and the like -- whatever floats yer boat there -- is that those aspects spurn Action. In other words, a would-be voter believes, for instance, that a vote makes a difference: therefore, s/he votes. Likewise, a would-be voter believes that a vote makes no difference at all: therefore, s/he doesn't vote.  (There are other reasons to vote-or-not-vote: this is just a for-instance.)

Concomitantly, one may or may not subscribe to or value "hope". However, the act of "hoping" brought millions more out to the voting booths. (That, and some reportedly just wanted to be part of the history, which in and of itself was an act of optimism.) "Hope" was central to Obama's platform. Clever man.

So what I'm saying here is that whether or not one subscribes to the power of hope in one's own path, one can't deny that it is a powerful catalyst for action out there in the mainstream, as disappointingly predictable as that might be to us 'sophisticated', duly-jaded or ostensibly-"detached" warrior types.


Part of me is definitely "digging" it. It reminds me of the late 60's/early 70's, when many of us were trying to "give peace a chance". We subversives!

Of course, that ended badly, and my personal "aha" moment there was, 3 assassinations later, the Kent State shootings, the heels of which were followed quickly by Watergate. The messages were "We'll kill you if you keep it up," and "You can count on absolutely nothing - nothing is sacred, and democracy is a lie."

I know I'm not alone in the subsequent apprehension of the zeitgeist of discouragement.

So am I happy that many stepped into the dream of democracy and peace again? Yes.
Will it last? I fear not -- no, it won't last, but likewise, I'm keeping my projections and disappointment out of it. You just never know what can happen.

Did I advocate its use for us "warriors"? No -- if I seemed to, I didn't make myself clear.  My point was that it was used in the mainstream. It was used to win the election, and it was used to activate voters into action. I'm pleased about that outcome -- mostly because of Sarah Palin. And also pleased for the US that it elected an African-American.  I've described all of that as well.

I don't know how to answer your question, how should we use "hope"? Because I didn't say that to start with.

I look back on my life, and I do see that there have been moments of it, for sure, in my own walk. Those moments lent courage to keep on in some dark times. But they were fleeting moments. I did not intend to sit here and tell anyone that they should use it.

That's the best I can do in clarifying, D.
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Jahn on November 07, 2008, 05:06:36 AM
what do I click on when I get to that page - it's all in gobbledygook.

You do not need to click on anything M, just sit back and let the evening go, The video Tv program starts automatic but you have to wait 40 sec. until the interviews in English start. And as I wrote; to get Full screen mode you just hit the "Fullskärm" button to the right below the video.

Right On with K-G Bergström, three Interviews before the US election, oct. 2008 (http://svt.se/svt/road/Classic/shared/mediacenter/index.jsp?&d=73434)
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Jahn on November 07, 2008, 05:28:12 AM
You know, I hate talking politics -- and I rarely do.

It is very spiritual to make money and talk politics. Some might think the opposite so that will be the truth for them.

Dear US is now under the gallow and of the two candidates that was available a majority, both in the US and abroad, thought that Obama was the best choice to be the captain on the sinking ship. Faith move mountains, so some billion people across the world now put some true faith in Obamas presidency. And many millions will add him to the evening prayer.

We got the best outcome in the election,  but we do not expect miracles. He will not be able to deliver all, not even half of what he has talked about but each evening when I close my eyes I will feel confident that the US has a president that is as close to be impeccable as he can be. That is what counts on a energy level. Nes't pas?

   ~.~
                       ~.~

Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Jahn on November 07, 2008, 06:32:25 AM

So, ultimately, my caution here is not to get too caught up in the IDEAS of "love" or "hope".  They're great motivators - but being a stalker, I am compelled to ask the next question:  how does that translate to ACTION in the real world? 

Action yes, very much required. A man younger than me may do more action than a man significant older thanme. How about to choose Colin Powell to minister of defence? Kerry as a minister of foreign affairs? And why not Al Gore as a minister of climate change. There is of course no such minister but now we are talking about "change". Take Al Gore to a position where he can make a difference. So obama may build a team, a team that can work in the "right" direction on its own. Then it is no longer a one man show, or a one man agenda as the Bush administration, but a teamworking for improvement of the state affairs.

To invite the opponents to unconditional discussions, to build up a "team" that function with self responsibility, to make resolutions for the future that was agreed by all leading parties, that is a few leading *Stars* that made success in Sweden and created change from deficit to abundance.
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Jennifer- on November 07, 2008, 07:28:17 AM
Hi, Vicki... Jen... and everyone else in this thread...

Vicki, I'm just attaching this to your post because it's the most succinct.  "Every little scrap of good will counts."  That seems to be the sentiment of many in this thread, however I would like to ask a simple question:  How?

Don't get me wrong.  I don't necessarily disagree.  I'm just trying to understand how hope or good will is going to change anything on a national or global level.  Seriously.  What is the process by which that change may occur?  We talk about love and good will, but even if you, me, Jen, Lori and the rest of us Somans were to go out and "spread the joy", I'm not really sure how I see that it is going to matter except to those of us who are do-ing it.  We cannot save the world. We can only effect change within ourselves.  And while I see that those of us here are do-ing that, it is clear that "the world" at large isn't much interested.  Just what is.

And that brings me to a point that's been kicked around over at TSW on and off for years.  Basically, it has really started to appear to me that there are at least two different species of humans on the planet (probably more, but for the sake of argument, let's jut talk about two).  There are "the humans" and there are "the seekers" (sorry, don't have a better word for it).  They look the same externally, but their inner mechanisms function on extremely different frequencies - so they are largely unable to understand one another.  Ever tried talking to a fundy preacher, for example?  NOT on the same frequency.  Not even in the same world.  Ever tried talking to a born-again bliss-ninnie?  Same problem - whether perceiving himself to be saved by Jesus or enlightened by virtue of having become a vegetarian, still not in the same world.

So... my point here is that I think we are attempting to communicate with a species that may not be CAPABLE of communicating.  It's not just that our "language" is different.  The concepts themselves are so at opposite ends of the spectrum that what I am calling a tree, the humans are calling a missile, and vice versa.  Communication break-down.  No common language.

So we talk about love and hope (both of which I am quite fond of), but at what level of reality can we really APPLY that?  And, to be perfectly Toltec about it - is it even our "problem" beyond a certain point?  I didn't see don Juan out trying to save the planet by spreading good cheer.  *LOL*  Not that he would have anything against it, but he focused his energies on those he COULD help - other warriors, people who were making at least some effort toward their own evolution.

So, again forgive me if I'm appearing "negative," but I'm trying to understand HOW hope and love are really going to make any difference, except within OURSELVES.  Absolutely - "Love is the reason" - no argument, total agreeement.  But trying to communicate "love" to a species that speaks in terms of war and bigotry and hate-mongering and fear-mongering... er... isn't that rather like trying to teach a pig to sing?  After awhile, it wastes YOUR time and annoys the pig.  So... what is really gained?

Now, with that said, I'm not a nihilist.  But I DO think there comes a time when we need to focus on what we CAN do rather than what we WISH were true.  I'm old enough to have lived through the 60s - that turbulent era of peace, love, dope, war, etc.  We marched for peace and wore flowers in our hair and ate a lot of tofu, but ultimately the "world" still went to hell around us.  Ugly truth.  So - my question is simply this:  what is an EFFICIENT use of energy in a world where we are essentially not the "dominat" species?  Sorry to be brutal here, but do we try to "save the apes" or do we focus our energy on evolution?

Ugly questions.  Very ugly.  Not my intent to rain on anyone's parade, but I think these are questions that must be asked if we are going to be honest with ourselves.  It's perfectly reasonable and rational to have that hope and love within ourselves, and even spread it around to others - but my experience has shown that if we think it's going to make a difference in "the world", we are sadly mistaken. 

What it all boils down to? I have come to see "hope" and "love" as positions of the assemblage point - very positive and potentially powerful.  But I also clearly *see* that love and hope alone are not going to be enough, simply because they can potentially blind us to the need for action - the responsibility of the Self in the equation of evolution.  So, if love and hope are positions of the assemblage point (mindsets), what is the best possible use of that energy in our day to day lives?  Are we trying to "save the world", or do we "save the world" by saving ourselves?

I keep going back to the analogy of the plane.  If the oxygen masks drop, your FIRST responsibility is to yourself.  If you're being altruistic and trying to put everyone else's mask on for them, you run the risk of passing out and then you're useless to all, including yourself.

So, ultimately, my caution here is not to get too caught up in the IDEAS of "love" or "hope".  They're great motivators - but being a stalker, I am compelled to ask the next question:  how does that translate to ACTION in the real world?  I honestly don't think it's as simple as saying "We have to set a good example." That's just too easy, and too much of an abdication of responsibility. 

Just some rambling thoughts which probably won't set well with some.  Apologies for the intrusion, but at the same time, I feel it is a necessary question if we are committed to the path with heart. 

Im pleased youve dove in Della, its always a pleasure to have you within a thread of any kind.

Quote
I'm just trying to understand how hope or good will is going to change anything on a national or global level.


I agree with what youve written, and I understand what you are saying as I have from experience felt as if Im a stranger in a way stranger land.. I have often in social situation found myself either wanting to fall asleep or bash my head off the wall... but.. from this Ive learned to accept that they are on a different path then what I choose to live and explore that with them.. of course slipping in a tad of my forien logic here and there.

What I often notice is struggle.. and how dearly they love to uphold and admire that.. if its not something that happened today.. ya know what happened 20 years ago! They dont know any better ( fwiw.. I really dislike sepperating myself and using 'they' but for the sake of sharing) it brings passion and energy to them in a strange way... oddly they rather enjoy being misrible and dont even realize it!

Lately what Ive been hearing is how much everything costs.. how are we going to heat our house this winter, if gas prices dont go down Im not going to be able to feed my family.. etc.

Im getting off track here.. Hope and Love.

Well the way I see it.. is many have just simply lost hope.. there is nothing good going for them.. so it drains the life right out of them.. people dont even notice a beautiful day any more.. or a sunset.. or the precious first snow fall as being any thing more then.. more 'work' Its like the people are all depressed and sickly....tired...lost.

My heart says with a bit of hope they may pull their heads out of their ass and notice what they DO have.. little by little they get feeling better.. huh..

I just left a very dear friend of mine who was paralized in an accident 2 years ago.. he has been struggling in healing ever since.

You know what pulls him out of his depression.. hope and love.

I see it as a side issue for a warrior, perhaps falling into the line of controlled folly.. to be concerned with the world and peace.. and yes, the people. Im not saying for all warriors.. Im saying for me at the time being. (Tomorrow I may not give a shit)

When my friend's daughter comes to see him tonight.. he's going to feel good.. because I reminded him of something.. life, love. She is going to feel good because her father does.. she's going to go home and share that with her mother.. ripples.

Its not distracting or frustrating to my path.. Its not my path.. its what I choose to do at times. Hell for that matter who is this "I" its doubtful anyone knows.

Hope and Love..

If one part of the world finds acceptance for one another, they start really understanding what love is. If one part of the world finds love.. again.. ripples.

The understanding of love, could even (and this is where Im still hopeful!) open their eyes to the earth and what we've done to her.. then the real world wide stuff starts rolling.

Eh.. Im young, little with experience as well. :)

Bit of a ramble...

Tis good to see you!










Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: daphne on November 07, 2008, 07:47:18 AM

My heart says with a bit of hope they may pull their heads out of their ass and notice what they DO have.. little by little they get feeling better.. huh..


I like that!   :)

In my experience, I have also found that "mainstream", a little 'hope' does do wonders. There seems to be a fine line there.. just enough 'hope' to see the possibilities in one's own actions and being able to actualize that. It is just a first step, which can gather individual momentum, but like anything else, the individual needs to actualize it themself. Too much hope - especially when invested in another, and people then do not act, as if waiting for someone else to actualize their hope for them.  I just hope (lol - there's that hope again!) that the level of hope seen in these elections does not end with waiting for Obama to "make it all better" and people do realize that hope also needs momentum from themselves.

I must admit though that I am still stumped with the results of the same-sex marriage ban. It seems that the same people that voted for change sort of stopped short in their thinking. Without being too 'negative'.. it makes me wonder what exactly their 'hope' for change meant. It's like giving with the one hand, and then taking it back with the other.
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: tangerine dream on November 07, 2008, 07:58:35 AM
Like I said at the beginning of my post, I only appended it to your post 'cuz yours was the most succinct.   The terms "love" and "hope" were both used in the thread, so none of it was intended "personally" toward you.  :)

As for mileage... I'm just asking the question.  How do we transform our "hope" into action?  The question isn't meant to offend.

Some factors that definitely come into play here are also personal power and intent.
You can add hope and love to a cherry pie and get a great result.   

And you can add hope and love and some personal power and intent, to the object of your focus, well that's something altogether different (and great).



I see hope like a spark....
Without any kindling or firewood, a spark is nice, but doesn't do much of anything, but look kinda neat for  a little while.   With the right kind of kindling and wood, though a spark can create one helluva fire!




I just left a very dear friend of mine who was paralized in an accident 2 years ago.. he has been struggling in healing ever since.

You know what pulls him out of his depression.. hope and love.

I see it as a side issue for a warrior, perhaps falling into the line of controlled folly.. to be concerned with the world and peace.. and yes, the people. Im not saying for all warriors.. Im saying for me at the time being. (Tomorrow I may not give a shit)

When my friend's daughter comes to see him tonight.. he's going to feel good.. because I reminded him of something.. life, love. She is going to feel good because her father does.. she's going to go home and share that with her mother.. ripples.

Its not distracting or frustrating to my path.. Its not my path.. its what I choose to do at times. Hell for that matter who is this "I" its doubtful anyone knows.

Hope and Love..

If one part of the world finds acceptance for one another, they start really understanding what love is. If one part of the world finds love.. again.. ripples.

The understanding of love, could even (and this is where Im still hopeful!) open their eyes to the earth and what we've done to her.. then the real world wide stuff starts rolling.


 :-*
Title: Nelson Mandela comment
Post by: Jahn on November 07, 2008, 08:20:17 AM
South Africa's previous president 90-year old Nelson Mandela, announced that he add to Barack Obama the congratulations from the people in your land and from the whole world that you have been elected to the next president of the United States.

"Your victory has shown that no pupil anywhere in the world can't dream about to make this world to a better place" in a letter where Mandela perhaps refer to himself as "we."
"We have noted, and we applause, your engagement for peace- and security work all across the world. We are also convinced that during your presidency you will take on the task to address poverty and the curse of illness in the across the world." (My translation).
 

"Er seger har visat att ingen människa någonstans i världen inte ska våga drömma om att vilja göra världen till en bättre plats", fortsätter Nelson Mandela i ett brev där legenden Mandela hänvisar till sig själv i vi-form.
"Vi har noterat, och vi applåderar, ert engagemang för freds- och säkerhetsarbetet runt om i världen. Vi är också övertygade om att ni under er presidenttid tar er an uppgiften att bekämpa fattigdomens och sjukdomens gissel världen över".

Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: nichi on November 07, 2008, 08:27:56 AM
That's very cool, Jamir!
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: TIOTIT on November 07, 2008, 10:02:44 AM
Hi all who read this
I was inspired by Quantum Shamans offering a few post back to contribute to
this thread.Quite often I prepare something to post and by the time I have
finished I once again realize it's just my limited perspective on whatever the
subject may be....QS said "there are at least two different species of humans on
the planet (probably more, but for the sake of argument, let's jut talk about two)"
I concure,1.Those who Know...2. Those who don't.....like all here I have invested
much time in acquiring information on topics and practices that catch my attention
one area which I have spent some time investigating is the way in which our
societies are created,controlled and maintained...So I will offer some info on a
man called Edward Louis Bernays who lived to be 103 was a nephew of
Sigmund Freud and was one of the clever men who helped shape consumer
culture and politics in the 20th century.When this guy threw a party it was a who's
who of the ruling class elite Presidents,Generals,Bankers they were all there....
This guy got women to smoke with a propaganda campaign equating freedom
and womens rights symbolized with cigarettes calling them "Torches For Liberty"
the rest is history....it's an ongoing industry that's all about making you think
the choices you make are your own....it's a vast topic so I'll keep short...some
info below on Bernays.




EDWARD L. BERNAYS   1928
Edward Louis Bernays (November 22, 1891 – March 9, 1995) is considered one
of the fathers of the field of public relations along with Ivy Lee. Combining the
ideas of Gustave Le Bon and Wilfred Trotter on crowd psychology with the
psychoanalytical ideas of his uncle, Sigmund Freud, Bernays was one of the first
to attempt to manipulate public opinion using the psychology of the
subconscious.
Tye writes that "Bernays' papers . . . provide illuminating and sometimes
disturbing background on some of the most interesting episodes of
twentieth-century history, from the way American tobacco tycoons made it
socially acceptable for women to smoke to the way other titans of industry
persuaded us to pave over our landscape and switch to beer as the 'beverage of
moderation.' The companies involved aren't likely to release their records of
those campaigns, assuming they still exist. But Bernays saved every scrap of
paper he sent out or took in. . . . In so doing, he let us see just how policies were
made and how, in many cases, they were founded on deception."
He felt this manipulation was necessary in society, which he regarded as
irrational and dangerous as a result of the 'herd instinct' that Trotter had
described. Adam Curtis's award-winning 2002 documentary for the BBC,
The Century of the Self, pinpoints Bernays as the originator of modern public
relations, and Bernays was named one of the 100 most influential Americans of
the 20th century by Life magazine
As civilization has become more complex, and as
the need for invisible government has been increasingly
demonstrated, the technical means have been
invented and developed by which opinion may be regimented.

From Bernays 1928 publication Propaganda

ORGANIZING CHAOS
THE conscious and intelligent manipulation of the
organized habits and opinions of the masses is an
important element in democratic society. Those who
manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute
an invisible government which is the true ruling
power of our country.
We are governed, our minds are molded, our
tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men
we have never heard of. This is a logical result of
the way in which our democratic society is organized.
Vast numbers of human beings must cooperate in
this manner if they are to live together as a smoothly
functioning society.
Our invisible governors are, in many cases, unaware
of the identity of their fellow members in the
inner cabinet.
They govern us by their qualities of natural leadership,
their ability to supply needed ideas and by their
key position in the social structure. Whatever attitude
one chooses to take toward this condition, it
remains a fact that in almost every act of our daily
lives, whether in the sphere of politics or business,
in our social conduct or our ethical thinking, we are
dominated by the relatively small number of persons—
a trifling fraction of our hundred and twenty
million—who understand the mental processes and
social patterns of the masses. It is they who pull the
wires which control the public mind, who harness old
social forces and contrive new ways to bind and guide
the world.
It is not usually realized how necessary these invisible
governors are to the orderly functioning of
our group life. In theory, every citizen may vote
for whom he pleases. Our Constitution does not
envisage political parties as part of the mechanism
of government, and its framers seem not to have
pictured to themselves the existence in our national
politics of anything like the modern political machine.
But the American voters soon found that
without organization and direction their individual
votes, cast, perhaps, for dozens or hundreds of candidates,
would produce nothing but confusion. Invisible
government, in the shape of rudimentary
political parties, arose almost overnight. Ever since
then we have agreed, for the sake of simplicity and
practicality, that party machines should narrow down
the field of choice to two candidates, or at most three
or four.

Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Muffin on November 07, 2008, 10:34:36 AM
As for mileage... I'm just asking the question.  How do we transform our "hope" into action?  The question isn't meant to offend.
The answer is controlled folly. In other words, we don't.
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: tangerine dream on November 07, 2008, 11:18:27 AM
  How do we transform our "hope" into action?  The question isn't meant to offend.

Wait a second...
Something just occurred to me.   The way I see it, hope IS action.

I'm thinking here...
It is a noun, sure (the hope) but it is also something that we do, (we hope, we are hoping) so therefore an action word, a verb.
 :)

Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Quantum Shaman on November 07, 2008, 02:47:21 PM
Wait a second...
Something just occurred to me.   The way I see it, hope IS action.

I'm thinking here...
It is a noun, sure (the hope) but it is also something that we do, (we hope, we are hoping) so therefore an action word, a verb.
 :)



No offense, Lori, but that doesn't work for me in the bigger picture.  I can "hope" for a new car, or to be healed of some ailment, but unless I put some additional effort into it, hope alone normally doesn't yield results. 

It can't hurt, but I'm not sure how much it "helps" either.  OTOH, if it helps someone feel better about themselves or their situation, that's a good thing.  :)
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: daphne on November 07, 2008, 03:11:25 PM


....it's an ongoing industry that's all about making you think
the choices you make are your own....



Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: tangerine dream on November 07, 2008, 09:51:59 PM
No offense, Lori, but that doesn't work for me in the bigger picture.  I can "hope" for a new car, or to be healed of some ailment, but unless I put some additional effort into it, hope alone normally doesn't yield results. 

Which is what I said earlier about  adding intent and personal power to the mix.   :)

Quote

It can't hurt, but I'm not sure how much it "helps" either.  OTOH, if it helps someone feel better about themselves or their situation, that's a good thing.  :)


I don't think anyone here is saying that hope is some magical cure.
But that it does have catalystic properties I think we can agree.


You can hope till the cows come home if you want a cherry pie, but if you don't get up off your couch and at least walk toward the kitchen, I'm pretty sure your chances of actually getting that pie are slim.  (Not impossible though heh  :P )


Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Jennifer- on November 07, 2008, 10:36:53 PM
Perhaps Hope is akin to Trust..
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: tangerine dream on November 07, 2008, 10:39:29 PM
Perhaps Hope is akin to Trust..

And faith?
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: daphne on November 07, 2008, 10:55:25 PM
There’s a Sufi story that goes something like this: A master was traveling with one of his disciples. The disciple was in charge of taking care of the camel. Late one night, they came upon a caravan of other travelers and camels. It was the disciple’s duty to tether the camel, but he was tired and didn’t bother about it. He left the camel outside untethered and simply prayed to God. “Please take care of the camel” he said and fell asleep.

In the morning the camel was gone. The master asked “what happened to the camel?” And the disciple said “I don’t know. You should ask God because I asked him to take care of the camel. It is not my responsibility. You are always telling me to trust in God. I clearly asked God to handle this so do not be angry with me.”

And the master said “Trust in God but tether your camel.”

 ;)
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Quantum Shaman on November 07, 2008, 11:53:40 PM
And faith?

Faith?  In what?  In whom?  Seriously... when someone talks to me about faith, I think it's important to establish a reference point. 

Also, my reference point is pretty much exactly the opposite. 

The destruction of faith is the beginning of evolution.

Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: tangerine dream on November 08, 2008, 02:49:07 AM
Faith?  In what?  In whom?  Seriously...


In Power
Spirit
the Universe

 ;D

Quote
Seriously... when someone talks to me about faith, I think it's important to establish a reference point. 



My reference point is right here .. now.
 ;D
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Quantum Shaman on November 08, 2008, 03:56:26 AM
In Power
Spirit
the Universe

 ;D

Okay, Lori... I want to start this by saying that we clearly come from very opposite points of view.  That's okay.  Anything I have said here isn't personal, though I was accused by a friend of "seeking an argument."  That is NOT my agenda, so I hope you (and others) will hear me on that.  Frankly, I don't think discussions such as this can be answered with one or two-word responses, but that's just me.  In trying to understand where YOU are coming from, I offer my own reference points and attempt to make them clear.  But, of course, in the bigger picture, even if you and I came to an understanding (formed a consensus), it really would make no difference whatsoever.  So... in many ways, we have to acknowledge that most forum discussions are little more than exercises in stalking our own assimilation.

In talking to you or Michael or Juhani or Jahn or Jen, my agenda isn't to change YOUR mind, but to thoroughly challenge and explore my own.  That's what stalkers do.  When I am in Dreaming mode, I "inhabit the experience in the Now", but the reason Toltec teaches that a warrior must learn both dreaming AND stalking is because there does come a time when we are required (by ourselves) to form a foundation of Knowledge that is both fluid and cohesive, at the same time.  Dreaming (fluidity) and stalking (cohesion). 

So, this question is posed from the point of view of a stalker:  When you say you have faith in the universe, spirit and power... my question becomes... how would you define those things?  What I'm getting at is that when people say they have faith in spirit or the universe, they are usually envisioning some manner of extant "power" - whether god, goddess, atman, or other - and at that point, there is still what amounts to an abdication of power and responsibility from the "self" to something "other".  Maybe that's not what you mean.  That's what I'm trying to get at here.  What DO you mean?  Without a further refernce point, they are just words hanging in a void.  What is the universe? What is spirit?  What is power?  Not questions you need to answer if you don't want to - just trying to point out that our definitions of these things, and our experience of them, is not going to be the same, so part of coming to an understanding involves building a common language (as much as is possible - which may be altogether impossible...  :-\

The bottom line is simply this:  too many people I encounter (including myself!) fall into comfort zones of believing that if they wish for something or hope for something, it is going to come to them.  That was part of the whole platform of the latest spiritual fad - "The Secret."  The concepts may work at a core level, but unless combined with actual ACTION (dreaming and stalking working together - thought/idea becoming manifested through intent)) they tend to sit dormant in the back of the mind as a "comfort zone".   We lose ourselves in "hoping" and put off the "do-ing".

Doesn't matter, of course.  It's not my intent or even my hope to change your thinking.   :)  Heartfelt.  My intent is only to challenge my own comfort zones - and that often comes in the form of presenting ideas that are not particularly popular.  My contention is that if I am "disturbed" by something you say (or vice versa) the stalking exercise has been successful.  Obviously (to me anyway) knowledge cannot be traded in the form of words alone.  Anything you say to me, anything I say to you, must be filtered through our own processes - and hopefully somewhere in that do-ing, we not only understand ourselves better, but we also build a more cohesive "foundation" that welcomes challenge as an opportunity for growth, rather than automatically retreating from it as a threat to ego or existing comfort zones.

So, since it seem to be an issue and a question, allow me to say publicly that I'm not seeking an "argument."  I'm trying to stimulate my own thinking by engaging with others.  That is not going to involve joining any consensus and there will be times when it will not even be "politically correct."  But, in the bigger picture, isn't that what the path is all about?  Challenging our comfort zones?  Abolishing all belief systems (including what we believe about words), until we stand face to face with the authentic self?

If we're just here to agree with one another, we're wasting our time.

Heartfelt, unconditionally,
D

Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Jahn on November 08, 2008, 05:23:39 AM
Faith?  In what?  In whom? 

That is an easy question QS - faith in myself or my Self.
Actually there is only one person on this planet, and that is me.
You others are just a dream  ;D
Some times a wonderful dream, some times a nightmare,
all depending on my status for the day though the nightmares are gone since 2002 while all the wonders are left.
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Jahn on November 08, 2008, 05:34:02 AM
Abolishing all belief systems (including what we believe about words), until we stand face to face with the authentic self?



Well I would not say that we abolish All belief system. First we change them then we put the new ones into a perspective, a different light, a different meaning, but we will always have a kind of basic belief system.

The important thing is to not have a Limiting belief system. To change belief system is a great part of the Transformation process but transformation also require deeper connection with the Nagual as weel as a deeper understanding of our nature.

So would you believe that I met Don Juan a month ago?
A man that according to scientists even never has existed.
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Quantum Shaman on November 08, 2008, 06:30:07 AM


So would you believe that I met Don Juan a month ago?
A man that according to scientists even never has existed.

I'd love to hear about that!  :)  I met "him" once, years ago.  Who's to say it was don Juan or not, but that was how he projected to me at the time.

Do tell!
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Quantum Shaman on November 08, 2008, 06:37:15 AM
That is an easy question QS - faith in myself or my Self.
Actually there is only one person on this planet, and that is me.

Heh - I agree with this, for what it's worth.  Thing is... when I am challenging my own belief systems, I stalk myself ruthlessly, and start asking questions like... "Okay, so I have faith and trust in my Self.  Now, what do I intend to DO with that which might bring the concept into manifestation?"  Meaning - if we all have faith in ourselves, but leave it at the level of words, mantras and belief systems... is our faith in ourselves misplaced?

There's no right or wrong answer, of course.  I'm just kicking some questions around for the sake of shaking the dust out of the words themselves. 

 :)
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Jahn on November 08, 2008, 07:14:17 AM
I'd love to hear about that!  :)  I met "him" once, years ago.  Who's to say it was don Juan or not, but that was how he projected to me at the time.

Do tell!

Ah, that meeting was just one in a number of many. Don Juan is as always, a man in his best, 60+ that is. My eyes are similar to the eyes of the nagual, if I need to talk about my personal situation, have a question, or feel that things goes tight, then  I walk in to the Toltec Astral community. Step in as the natural duke that I am. One of the masters that I may meet is Don Juan Matus. He got one perspective that help me in a certain type of problems, and I must stress, only certain "problems", one do not call for DJ without cause, not saying that he may contact me to get some first hand info. His warrior perspective one seldom ask for simply because one know deep within the "painful" answer that will follow, that is always to look on what IS, to scrutinize one self. One becomes naked, one becomes responsible.

So I seek his conversation only when I am sure to not be stripped apart and be completely "naked" before the community. For me, then Don Juan can be a real support, and I can get a glimpse of what is behind next bend.

The advices of and connection to Don Juan is available to everyone here and elsewhere, that is how the Toltec community works. Preconditions are perhaps a bit responsibilty for mankind and oneself and a bit of transformation made on the personal level.
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: tangerine dream on November 08, 2008, 07:29:49 AM
That is an easy question QS - faith in myself or my Self.
Actually there is only one person on this planet, and that is me.
You others are just a dream  ;D

After I got to work, I realized I wanted to say that, too.

Thanks Jamir,  I heartily agree!
 :-*


Ah, that meeting was just one in a number of many. Don Juan is as always, a man in his best, 60+ that is. My eyes are similar to the eyes of the nagual, if I need to talk about my personal situation, have a question, or feel that things goes tight, then  I walk in to the Toltec Astral community. Step in as the natural duke that I am. One of the masters that I may meet is Don Juan Matus. He got one perspective that help me in a certain type of problems, and I must stress, only certain "problems", one do not call for DJ without cause, not saying that he may contact me to get some first hand info. His warrior perspective one seldom ask for simply because one know deep within the "painful" answer that will follow, that is always to look on what IS, to scrutinize one self. One becomes naked, one becomes responsible.

So I seek his conversation only when I am sure to not be stripped apart and be completely "naked" before the community. For me, then Don Juan can be a real support, and I can get a glimpse of what is behind next bend.

The advices of and connection to Don Juan is available to everyone here and elsewhere, that is how the Toltec community works. Preconditions are perhaps a bit responsibilty for mankind and oneself and a bit of transformation made on the personal level.

I'm curious about what he had to say or show, if it's not too personal to share.  I've met dJ in dreaming and always he had some very important bit of knowledge to impart.
 ;D
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: tangerine dream on November 08, 2008, 09:39:24 AM
hope alone normally doesn't yield results. 

It can't hurt, but I'm not sure how much it "helps" either.  OTOH, if it helps someone feel better about themselves or their situation, that's a good thing.  :)

If it helps someone feel better about her self or situation, then it does yield results, no?  Feeling better is a good result imo.
 ;D

Perhaps the types of results that hope can bring to us are not the regular sort of every day tangible results some of us would like to see. 

If you ask me, anything that lights the spark is great --  no matter the method or excuse we use to get there, it's the spark that's most important.


Also,  I don't understand how evolution can have a beginning.  In my view, it is a constant process with no beginning or end.
So while I do understand your (personal) need to destroy faith, I cannot comprehend that evolution won't  'start' until faith is destroyed.   ???

Quote

The destruction of faith is the beginning of evolution.

Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Angela on November 08, 2008, 03:07:16 PM
I am pleased to say that the new president of the United States is Barack Obama! Its an interesting and exciting time to be a US citizen, to witness the acceptance and growth as a unit toward peace and change is beautiful. 

Im proud in a humble way to see a glimmer of maturity within a very young culture.. to set aside social conditions and honour an African American man as well as a woman to run in this election for white house is amazing.

I turned the local/national news on yesterday as I went about my house chores.. and saw mass groups of American people standing together and smiling.. yes.. smiling! It matters not the reason.. the smiles, the heart.. the unity.. that matters.

My son is 15 years old, which gives me close up view of the american youth. May they blossem from the waters of the adversities to come. May they have eyes to see and feel the earth calling beneith their heavy footsteps and the heart to follow what they find is truth.

Peace be with you, Jennifer

Quote
In my humble opinion which is very small and very much just a slight passing of wind through the trees, things arnt going to just get better.. what has been done is done and the results of that will come to front as all things do..  say things do dive into the depths of what is considered hell on earth to most Americans, perhaps this is a turning of the universal wheel where all things must die to be reborn anew.

 ((((((Jen))))))  :-*

I was very happy of the results of the election :) I see Obama as a simple man, and after reading about his Grandmother, who basically raised him, I understand where he gets his balance and strength.

IMO, the people surrounding Obama are open to evolution of mankind. Some of them may not see the specifics, or may not have the "knowledge", but I do see their "shine". And the shine becomes brighter as their fear dissipates. :)

I also see a nation torn. 52 million people voted for Obama. 48 million voted for McCain. I don't think a lot of people expected Obama to win.

What I've noticed in the general population is either a very strong conservative opinion, or a very strong liberal opinion. I also see people not voicing these opinions due to fear of retaliation. People are beginning to "crash".

Right this moment the gays are protesting in two states ... from this has risen some violent action. After the election on Tuesday, an Black church was burned in Boston.

Kris and I were at the pub on election night. As we watched the results come in, a man yelled hateful comments about Obama and was eventually ask to leave ... the anger, the hate ... it's like a time bomb waiting to explode.

240,000 people in the US lost their jobs last month. GM is on the verge of bankruptcy. Even our local economy which thrives on tourism/gambling, and usually is immune to economic tumbles, is taking a huge hit. The money is running out. More are expected to lose their jobs and homes.  And it's not just here, It's a global issue.

I'm feeling that more protests and fears will rise to the top and our world will become a dangerous place. On the other hand, I also see that when difficult situations arise, there Are people who will rise to the occasion and help.

I'm sensing a kind of "calm before the storm". Not sure how to describe it. We'll see how it unfolds. But, I agree ... things are going to get a lot worse, before they get anywhere close to "better".

Title: Re: HOORAY
Post by: Angela on November 08, 2008, 03:10:13 PM
Did any of you US citizens vote?

Yes, I did :)
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Quantum Shaman on November 08, 2008, 05:08:50 PM


Also,  I don't understand how evolution can have a beginning.  In my view, it is a constant process with no beginning or end.
So while I do understand your (personal) need to destroy faith, I cannot comprehend that evolution won't  'start' until faith is destroyed.   ???


Pretty simple.  As long as you are relying on "faith" in any sort of extant force, power or god, you have abdicated responsibility for your own evolution.  And, at a certain level, even "faith" in yourself is not enough.  Warriors don't rely on "faith", but in quantifiable energy - action, intent, will. 

I think it's a pretty obvious statement.  :)
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Michael on November 08, 2008, 08:51:05 PM
We have strayed through many topics. I finally got to read most and will look at the others later. Generally I felt people were putting their arguments very well, and it is important to give them the space in your own mind, before responding.

Naturally the topic would turn to 'hope'. It is very true that in the outer social world, hope is critical.

The problem with hope, is that comes with despair. Like night follows day, despair will follow on hope - it even happened to DL's party.

Much of the difficulty indicated here is due to not clearly distinguishing between the outer and inner world. What is applicable to the outer world is not necessarily applicable to the inner.

If your engine is running on the fuel of hope, what will you do when it turns to despair?

For us on the path, hope is next to useless. That does not mean we swing to it's opposite. Despair is just as useless. These are moods, and we as humans, allow ourselves to range through the full capability of our emotional centre, but with a difference. We are not internally connected.

This is so difficult to explain, and reading these posts, I see some are still learning how this works. That is why I have this Board - Action.

You have to go to the core, to see the truth. I love to express the despair of humanity, to feel this mood as I watch my fellow humans, and know the futility. At the same time I love to feel the hope - the hope which Obama lights up in people's hearts. The 'stairway to heaven' - yes I also follow that one... knowing full well....

I seek to light hope in the hearts of those around me - not to save the world, as that is a very different matter altogether - but to bring 'auspicious'. I love to see the hearts of those around me light up with the knowledge of possibilities - to realise they can achieve, they can change themselves and the world.

You know that Shiva, the god of destruction, is also the god of auspicious - you should think carefully on that.

I also spread despair, as without passing through that, there is little 'hope' of stepping off the see-saw. Only when we personally drop the carrot and the stick, can we step into a very different world.

The question is always are you speaking to one on the path, or off the path. For those off the path, we 'apply the correction'. We spread hope where lies despair, and spread the 'warning of the night' where lies hope. Always we seek to remind those around us, when we choose to, that the cycle of hope and despair is endless... 'this too will pass'. But people don't like it!

When you speak of the day during night, they call you an optimist living in dreamland. When you speak of the night during day, they abuse you for spoiling their fun.

So we have to know and recall both, because that is the simple roller-coaster of emotion built into the very blueprint of our beings.

However, for ourselves, we fuel our engines on a very different substance. This enables us to speed along gaily in both despair and hope, in both day and night. THAT is our secret.

And if you don't know what that secret is, best you find out before you do anything else. You are useless in the Shamanic field of Action if you have not realigned yourself to this secret. You will only muddy the water even more.
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: nichi on November 08, 2008, 09:24:49 PM
So we have to know and recall both, because that is the simple roller-coaster of emotion built into the very blueprint of our beings.

However, for ourselves, we fuel our engines on a very different substance. This enables us to speed along gaily in both despair and hope, in both day and night. THAT is our secret.

And if you don't know what that secret is, best you find out before you do anything else. You are useless in the Shamanic field of Action if you have not realigned yourself to this secret. You will only muddy the water even more.
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: tangerine dream on November 09, 2008, 12:23:33 AM
Pretty simple.  As long as you are relying on "faith" in any sort of extant force, power or god, you have abdicated responsibility for your own evolution.  And, at a certain level, even "faith" in yourself is not enough.  Warriors don't rely on "faith", but in quantifiable energy - action, intent, will. 

Once again let me remind that because I have faith or hope doesn't mean that I rely on them period.  I have said  hope and faith can be useful catalysts, to light the spark inside.   Using them with whatever means necessary to facilitate an action is what I am talking about.   Faith, hope, despair, fear, and lots more, none of them are useful to us if we get attached or stuck on them.  If we can use these things to fuel us, that's some good work, leading to action.


I seek to light hope in the hearts of those around me - not to save the world, as that is a very different matter altogether - but to bring 'auspicious'. I love to see the hearts of those around me light up with the knowledge of possibilities - to realise they can achieve, they can change themselves and the world.

You know that Shiva, the god of destruction, is also the god of auspicious - you should think carefully on that.

Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Quantum Shaman on November 09, 2008, 03:26:39 AM
However, for ourselves, we fuel our engines on a very different substance. This enables us to speed along gaily in both despair and hope, in both day and night. THAT is our secret.

And if you don't know what that secret is, best you find out before you do anything else. You are useless in the Shamanic field of Action if you have not realigned yourself to this secret. You will only muddy the water even more.


I agree with this assessment, Michael, and I do think it's critically important to address the issue of who one is speaking to.  To someone who is on the path, it is patently obvious, as you stated early on in your post, that "hope is useless."  In the entirety of your post, that statement carries the most weight, for the simple reason that it strikes at the heart of Truth - i.e., it says it like it is without any additional "packaging."

I also agree with your assessment about spreading hope and despair somewhat equally. In my own work, that is critical.  We have to be willing to let our world(s) fall BEFORE we have much "hope" of building a new one - and lately, I've seen way too many people so high on the dope of "hope" that they are simply unwilling and (as a result) UNABLE to see beyond the narrow focus of that high.  Rather like being stoned.  Seems like it will last forever, until you crash, and then it's often a long, downward spiral into the darkness - which was always there, but was obscured by the "drug".

For what it's worth, I'm not "down" on hope or love and light.  It is simply my "path" to be the serpent in the garden - MY OWN!  *heh*  And, occasionally, others are going to take the apple and then get bent out of shape because it opens their eyes to something they don't want to see.  *shrugs*  So I'm not sure what the answer is - seriously.  Nod and smile in silent approval?  I simply felt in this thread that some manner of "logical" thinking needed to be injected into the conversation.  Because, frankly, ideas like "hope" and "faith" are not particularly logical, and particularly among those on the path.  Sorry to be so "dark" here, but "hope and faith" are words that belong in a campaign speech or a pulpit.

Toltec is a brutal path in many ways.  I don't label myself as Toltec, per se, but most of my practices & spirit-work parallel that line of thinking.  Don Juan was not a man of "hope" or "faith".  And there is a lot of truth in the old Biblical adage, "Abandon hope, all ye who enter here."  And, yet, I also totally agree with your statement that we don't swing automatically to the other extreme - despair.  To those who want/need to hear this, I will say there is a "balance" between hope and despair, and that centerpoint is, simply, sobriety - reason, clarity, fluidity.  Those dwelling in "hope" cannot find that centerpoint anymore than those dwelling in despair may find it.  The pendulum swings - but only if we allow it, only if we are willing to acknowledge that hope and despair are EQUALLY folly, and then find our personal centerpoint.

The "problem" as I see it is that so much new age clap trap has been injected into the world that even those who genuinely WANT to be on a path toward spiritual evolution are blinded by the "light" - e.g., the whole notion of "The Secret" is just new age feel-goodism as it was packaged (even though the core ideas may be effective, the manner in which it was sold was pure snake oil, yet gobbbled up by millions).  I go into the book store and pick up books on the "metaphysical" shelf at random, and I'm appalled!  "Enlightenment" is offered to us in the form of "love and light", completely ignoring the fact that "grief and darkness" are no less real - and every bit as powerful. Here in the US in particular, we are inundated with the xtian notion of some guy saving our souls so we may go to heaven, but in the same unspoken breath, this means, "Only if you are like us, only if you agree with us, only if you are a heterosexual middle-class American with 2.4 children and a willingness to turn a blind eye on all the EVIL the church does in the name of God.  Hey, Brother, can you spare a dime, by the way"

So, on forums like Soma, The Sorcerr's World, and The Solitary Nagual, I tend to think that the participants WANT to challenge their belief systems every bit as much as I do.  As a result, a lot of my opinions are not particularly popular, nor would I expect them to be.  And that gets into a whole different area which I was attempting to express at TSN in the following comments:

Quote
Those who have known me for any length of time already know I am not particularly "sweetness and light" in my approach to this path.  Quite the contrary, I have found it to be a path of "dark enlightenment" - in the sense that much of the Knowledge and experience we acquire on this path isn't particularly "pleasant".  We use the term "warriors" - but what are we at war with?  Simple - our comfort zones, belief systems, our ego and the baggage of the consensus we bring with us from our "ordinary lives".

Are we willing to challenge those things?  Or are we only looking for a feel-good agreement to our existing belief systems? 

When Orlando first began working with the three of us, he challenged us right down to the core level of our thought processes - particularly when we would respond to one of his questions with a platitude.  I remember once he asked me, "Della, how do you define 'the right way to live'?"  I responded with some clever (or so I thought) quip about, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."   Some bit of recycled sweetness & light shite floating around in my brain from my old programming.  So easy to see in hindsight.  So impossible to see when we are stuck in the program.  Needless to say, his response was *ahem* rather brutal, as I believe both Wendy and A_____ would attest.  It went something like this...

"Then how would you define doing unto others?  What does that mean to you?  Do you agree with them blindly in the hopes they will agree with you - even if and when you are wrong?  Do you form unwritten and unholy alliances based on some notion of approval or reciprocal courtesies?  And if that is the case, what do you then owe to that person, that you may not want or be able to give?  Do you smile at their errors and hold your silence because that is how you would want to be treated, ignoring the fact that you will only go on repeating the same errors through ignorance?  Do unto others... Is that REALLY how you would define the right way to live, or is that just some bit of garbage stuck on your hard drive that you recite when challenged by a question to which you have no answer?"

Got my attention.  And it made me think.

And therein lies the rub.  If we are going to be honest, if we are going to be true to our path (whatever it may be), can we afford those little consensuses that often occur on forums, wherein you agree with me and expect me to agree with you?  Or, is it perhaps far more of an honor and a service to others to treat them with the dignity and respect that says, "I love you enough to challenge your thinking - and I BEG you to do the same for me!" 


So, for what it's worth, that's where I'm coming from.  I am very willing to commit to exploring the path with others, but not to blindly agreeing with them because it makes them "feel good".  I consider that a huge disservice, and nothing more than an attempt to maintain some illusion of a "pleasant status quo."   That's not what this path is about for me.  We either commit to challenging down to the core level our belief systems, or we are utterly wasting our time.  To me, that IS the centerpoint between hope and despair.

Just my thoughts - thanks for listening.
D
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Quantum Shaman on November 09, 2008, 03:30:36 AM
Once again let me remind that because I have faith or hope doesn't mean that I rely on them period.  I have said  hope and faith can be useful catalysts, to light the spark inside.   Using them with whatever means necessary to facilitate an action is what I am talking about.   Faith, hope, despair, fear, and lots more, none of them are useful to us if we get attached or stuck on them.  If we can use these things to fuel us, that's some good work, leading to action.



Thank you for taking the time to explain your position, Lori.  THAT is what I am looking for - to understand where you are coming from, and that can only come through a broader form of communication.  To me, being able to put into words concepts such as this is a huge aspect of my assimilation - otherwise we may "do" things or "believe" things without really understanding much about the structure upon which our do-ing or our believing is built.  To me, as a stalker, being able to COMMUNICATE that understanding is half the battle.

D
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Jahn on November 09, 2008, 03:32:02 AM
After I got to work, I realized I wanted to say that, too.

Thanks Jamir,  I heartily agree!
 :-*


I'm curious about what he had to say or show, if it's not too personal to share.  I've met dJ in dreaming and always he had some very important bit of knowledge to impart.
 ;D


It was not that personal, and seldom are with DJ for me. I have more close astral guides on the personal level. Usually these contacts are on such a high vibrating level that words are not sufficient to cover the exchange.

Don Juan has the ability to explain how single events or happenings fit into the whole picture. But even if the topic this time were about rapid changes in the world, the result of our exchange was that I got strength in doing what I am already doing.

Many seers of today see things that may make them rather worried about the future. Then it is good to turn to the old and wise.
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: tangerine dream on November 09, 2008, 09:03:16 AM

Many seers of today see things that may make them rather worried about the future. Then it is good to turn to the old and wise.

 ;D
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Michael on November 09, 2008, 11:42:24 PM
It is blatantly obvious how significant this latest US elections have been to the African American community in USA. That significance is all about hope.

I recall a writer once describing the difference between Jewish and African American families towards their children's aspirations. The Jewish family were always not only encouraging their children to achieve great things, they expected it of them - plus there were ample role models. Whenever a child of an African American family aspired to something, s/he was told, "Who do you think you are? Don't go getting above yourself."

Obama has had a profound effect on these people - there is no denying that. And listening to the stories of how excited they all were, is very moving.

But you can see right there the brittle nature of pinning yourself to hope - what would happen if Obama was assassinated? Can you image the consequences for the Black people of America? I could easily conjecture it would be worse for them than if he had never appeared on the scene. That is the problem with hope - it is a highly vulnerable ally.

But that is the nature of 'peoples'. They do not have the luxury of escaping the vulnerabilities of their group tonal - except as individuals who leave behind their group.

Ask yourself this question. Are you able to push on regardless, when all hope is gone?

Action does not come from hope, it comes from desire. Emotional desire is the source of all action, even when that desire is about avoidance of pain. Hope however is like a gateway. You may desire to do something, but if you see no possibility of succeeding, then your desire is blocked, and thus your action is blocked.

Where this is seen clearly, is when we are proceeding with hope of achieving. Then hope turns to hopelessness - what do we do? What do you do? Do you drop your bundle and give up? What is the point of carrying on along some road when it is patently pointless?

This happens in many common activities in our day - if you want to drive to town, but your car breaks down, do you sit in the car and keep turning the key again and again, waiting for a miracle? Or do you give up and find another route to your destination?

But that is not where this matter really hits home. It is in those other situations which are not so black and white. We should choose our road, our action, and not based on outcomes alone. This allows us the extra level to be able to keep pushing on, when all hope is gone, because we are not the servant of hope! It is absolutely critical we grasp this understanding.

Hope is also meaning. We persevere because our actions have meaning - we see that are right and meaningful for us. But when all of a sudden they become meaningless, wrong, futile - can you still persevere when your efforts are obviously pointless?

That is the quality that those who really have the knowledge to assist seekers on the path, are looking for. When you can demonstrate that quality, even Spirit sits up and notices.

In order to trick him, and show him up, they asked Nasrudin which is more important, the sun or the moon. "The moon of course!" he replied. "Why?" they asked, slightly taken aback by his confident statement.

Nasrudin said, "Because the moon shines at night, when you need light - who needs light during the day?"
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Quantum Shaman on November 10, 2008, 02:10:13 AM
I love this post, Michael.  It gives me *heh* "hope", while at the same time acknowledging that hope by itself is little more than a passing thought.  You made a couple of points/questions which I'd like to address.

Ask yourself this question. Are you able to push on regardless, when all hope is gone?

Action does not come from hope, it comes from desire. Emotional desire is the source of all action, even when that desire is about avoidance of pain. Hope however is like a gateway. You may desire to do something, but if you see no possibility of succeeding, then your desire is blocked, and thus your action is blocked.

One of the exercises I've done in my workshops is to pose the following question to folks:  "If you woke up tomorrow and discovered you were the last living human on Earth, would you have any desire to continue your path toward spiritual evolution?"  In short, this question forces folks to come face to face with the concept that every one of us really IS the last person on Earth, even though there may be 6 billion others all around us.  What it also forces us to confront is to what extent we may be basing even our "desire" for evolution on some comparison/competition with others.  If we are the last one, what are we evolving BEYOND?  What are we evolving TO?

I feel that questions of this nature are criticla as a means to jolt us out of our ordinary awareness thinking.

I've had warriors give answers running the extremes - everything from saying they would just continue on as usual, to saying they would "summon up some faith", to saying they would simply end their life through a movement of pure intent.  Only once did I hear someone say what I thought was an actual Don Juan-esque answer.  It was simply this:  "I'd realize I had dreamed myself into that position for a reason, and I would seize the Dream and use lucid intent to create my heart's desire in my brave little private new world."

Now THAT would be a manifestation of "hope" in some people's eyes, but at the core reality of it, it would really be a movement of energy at the level of spirit - the ability to carry on when all passive "hoping" is gone. 

Where this is seen clearly, is when we are proceeding with hope of achieving. Then hope turns to hopelessness - what do we do? What do you do? Do you drop your bundle and give up? What is the point of carrying on along some road when it is patently pointless?

Again, this gets to the core of my own thinking.  When we are looking for a "point to carrying on along some road when it is patently pointless" we are ESSENTIALLY seeking some sort of extant agreement, even if we don't realize it initially.  A "point" is based on an agreement, and a warrior's centerpoint is solely herself - so no agreements are required, no validation sought (beyond a certain beginning-point of the path).  The point to carrying on at that juncture would simply be our own impeccability - we play the game *as if* it matters, knowing all the while that it is our controlled folly. Abandoning hope can be a great exercise in losing self-importance and releasing our attachments to self-pity.  When all hope is gone, we realize we are finally FREE, even of our own belief systems.

When you have lost all hope, you have nothing left to lose.  And the keypoint is that this includes despair.  When a warrior truly abandons hope, s/he also abandons despair - with the full awareness that both are arbitrary positions of the assemblage point based on the subtle agreeements we form when we are looking for a "point" to anything, or a "meaning."  It's all arbitrary, and it's all inside of us.  Not by default, but by an awakening of our awareness.  Someone I know likes to say, "We are all Buddhas" - but I have never liked that statement, because it implies that we need do nothing in order to be "perfect."  On one level, MAYBE that is true, but I don't personally see it.  We all have the POTENTIAL to be Buddhas, but to MANIFEST that potential requires the work of losing our programming, diving into the abyss, and seeing what (if anything) of our "past life" survives that dark enlightenment.


 
We should choose our road, our action, and not based on outcomes alone. This allows us the extra level to be able to keep pushing on, when all hope is gone, because we are not the servant of hope! It is absolutely critical we grasp this understanding.

Just had to bring this forward, because it is so critical, and yet so often overlooked.  We are not the servant of hope!  Nor are we the slaves of despair.  Either may be used as a tool, but the trick is to let go of the tool before it glues itself to our hand, to see it for what it is, and then go BEYOND its hooks. 

Hope is also meaning. We persevere because our actions have meaning - we see that are right and meaningful for us. But when all of a sudden they become meaningless, wrong, futile - can you still persevere when your efforts are obviously pointless?

This is where we CAN begin to claim our own personal power and use it for something other than parlour tricks.  When we truly wrap our minds around the idea that ALL "meaning" is what we assign to something (an event, an object, a life path), we have given ourselves permission to DRIVE the boat instead of just being on board for the ride.  It's all arbitrary - which means all bets are off and all rules are out the window.  We then begin to find meaning in our actions because we have become AWARE of our actions and have potentially begun to act with impeccability rather than some ambiguous "faith" that spirit or our allies are going to guide us in the right direction.  When we finally grasp this, we have become Spirit, and we ARE the allies.

Thanks again, Michael, for a phenomenal post. 

D

Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: tangerine dream on November 10, 2008, 02:36:34 AM

 and yet so often overlooked.  We are not the servant of hope!  Nor are we the slaves of despair.  Either may be used as a tool, but the trick is to let go of the tool before it glues itself to our hand, to see it for what it is, and then go BEYOND its hooks. 

This is where we CAN begin to claim our own personal power and use it


Exactly!
 ;D
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Jahn on November 12, 2008, 06:12:35 AM
  Not by default, but by an awakening of our awareness.  Someone I know likes to say, "We are all Buddhas" - but I have never liked that statement, because it implies that we need do nothing in order to be "perfect."  On one level, MAYBE that is true, but I don't personally see it.  We all have the POTENTIAL to be Buddhas, but to MANIFEST that potential requires the work of losing our programming, diving into the abyss, and seeing what (if anything) of our "past life" survives that dark enlightenment.


I know that guy too. He may not be the same though. This "We are all Light and Buddhas" may blind many in New Age Enlightment to come in alignment with their Destiny.
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Quantum Shaman on November 13, 2008, 02:17:16 AM
I know that guy too. He may not be the same though. This "We are all Light and Buddhas" may blind many in New Age Enlightment to come in alignment with their Destiny.

Absolutely!  Any doctrine that teaches "We are already perfect" is usually some manner of either a) new age feel-goodism; or b) a line of study that would require some comitment to REALLY understand at a core level.

Sure, we are already perfect... and by the same reasoning, we are also altogether imperfect.  What we manifest determines the Truth of either statement at any given time.
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Angela on November 14, 2008, 02:31:37 PM
(http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/afp/20081110/capt.cps.oeb53.101108175304.photo00.photo.default-512x341.jpg?x=400&y=266&q=85&sig=U94j_6Q6hIeV.ZqeSEFZOA--)

Found this interesting ... http://www.avaaz.org/en/
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: TIOTIT on November 25, 2008, 11:30:47 PM
I know this thread is getting cold but on reading this recent article it seemed to
belong here... obviously he's not an Obama fan but his interpretation on the nature
of Hope was a strong one....

Ask yourself this question. Are you able to push on regardless, when all hope is gone?

That's the way 'hope' is employed by the dastardly and devious - take the crap we are giving you now in the 'hope' that things will get better (but we know they won't). Barack Obama is a purveyor of 'hope' because his masters want the people to accept what they are given now in the hope that good times will come.
 Just do what we demand, oops, sorry, Barack demands, and in return he'll inspire you to hope that it is all leading to the Promised Land. It isn't, but, by the time you realise that, it's too late.

What terrifies the manipulators is that people will abandon hope, as a future, sometime-never projection, and start to demand fairness, justice and freedom now. To avoid this nightmare they need to keep those desires as something to aspire to, not to actually have. Thus, their man, Obama, sells 'hope' as a diversion technique, a holding position, to keep the masses from truly rebelling.

We have no job, no food on the table and our home has been foreclosed, but at least we have 'hope'. Phew, thank goodness for that.

 'I'm hungry, mum, can I have some hope, please?'
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Jahn on November 26, 2008, 06:16:52 AM
It is all about energy. And energy is not linear - it is here and now. Some of us would say that a Obama administration was the best choice. And now we are there,  watching Obama and his administration to be selected for the next 4 years. So our energy is in alignment with the best choice.

What more can you ask for?
The best choice won.

Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Jahn on November 26, 2008, 06:20:09 AM
Thus, their man, Obama, sells 'hope' as a diversion technique, a holding position, to keep the masses from truly rebelling.

Rebel towards what I might ask? Money as an institution, authorities as authorities?
The masses are what? Misguided martyrs?
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Michael on November 26, 2008, 08:28:22 AM
TIOTIT, who are you quoting here?

Quote
What terrifies the manipulators is that people will abandon hope, as a future, sometime-never projection, and start to demand fairness, justice and freedom now. To avoid this nightmare they need to keep those desires as something to aspire to, not to actually have. Thus, their man, Obama, sells 'hope' as a diversion technique, a holding position, to keep the masses from truly rebelling.

There is some truth and some questions in this. I think it is true that without hope, our Capitalist system would collapse - it's all about putting off for today so you can buy a new TV next year. This is why they have been unsuccessful in selling this system to the Australian Aboriginals in the Northern Territory - they live now, and can't be persuaded to 'toe the line' in the hope of having 'things' at some future date, because they don't value 'things'.

Yet that is the system we are all plugged into on a social level, from the moment we are born. We are surrounded by 'toys', and if we want more toys, we have to work.

"demand fairness, justice and freedom now" I'm not sure the abandonment of hope will result in these desires. Maybe, but more likely, it would mean a complete break down of order, and instead of fairness, justice and freedom, people will smash the store windows and grab 'stuff'. I feel it is an fantasy of idealists that people will demand high and noble qualities - rather they will murder each other. Recall the French Revolution? or any revolution for that matter.

I'm sure there have and will be cultures that are not built on the Capitalist 'hopes'. But we are so far up the arse of this beast now, radical extraction would seem to me to be a complete disaster. Yet that may be what's coming.
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: erik on November 26, 2008, 07:04:47 PM
I see another aspect to "hope". It is about redemption of the people living in the US. By now many understand that something went badly wrong under Bush Jr. Usually they say it was the 'war'. I doubt many could say which war and how went wrong. Obama has given a hope that he will simply end the 'war' gone wrong. For simplistic minds untroubled by detail and deeper understanding it is enough as it echoes so well with childhood's 'You are doing wrong - stop and apologize!'

Yet...how exactly one apologizes for war? 'Sorry, we killed million of your people, but now we'll stop and go away'? Most people will do their utmost to forget about that adventure immediately - 'We apologized, what more do you want? We have a new president now and we won't do anything like that ever again!' Settled, done with.

But is it? Such a learned inability to see own actions for what they are, and sclerosis induced by an education system (how about drawing some historical parallels with launching some other wars by the US?) will lead to a redemption in minds of most people, and most certainly to a repetition of such affairs (in near future).
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Jahn on November 26, 2008, 09:59:31 PM

The Earth is tired, I mean overshoot day comes in September. The deforestation, the pollution of air and water and all mankind induced activities that stress the system has gone too far. So the climate change and man has to change along as there is a codependence in the Earth life system.

Looking in the rear view mirror - had we been able to make it any better? Probably not. In a system that has only one goal - economic growth - nature becomes the maid that everone can rape. We have "green taxes" on fuel but noone has really paid the price for pollution and deforestation. If the price had been enough high that would at least slowed down the growth and thereby decreased the pollution, given us some more time ... but that is all.

An airticket from Sweden to Italy for one Euro. Or go to England or France for 20. Who pays? Gas is cheaper than milk.
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Firestarter on January 04, 2009, 08:06:23 PM
Oh some good posts here, Im catching up a bit - the hope side vs the 'be real' side, not saying sides, im speaking really of sides to myself, own self, cause this is one of those moments the thought about Hope being in the Pandora's box is a good thing or a bad thing - like abandoning all hope ye who enter - maybe hope is one of the last things to go, before we take a firm look at hell and what it really looks like.

Okay, Lori... I want to start this by saying that we clearly come from very opposite points of view.  That's okay.  Anything I have said here isn't personal, though I was accused by a friend of "seeking an argument."  That is NOT my agenda, so I hope you (and others) will hear me on that.  Frankly, I don't think discussions such as this can be answered with one or two-word responses, but that's just me.  In trying to understand where YOU are coming from, I offer my own reference points and attempt to make them clear.  But, of course, in the bigger picture, even if you and I came to an understanding (formed a consensus), it really would make no difference whatsoever.  So... in many ways, we have to acknowledge that most forum discussions are little more than exercises in stalking our own assimilation.

In talking to you or Michael or Juhani or Jahn or Jen, my agenda isn't to change YOUR mind, but to thoroughly challenge and explore my own.  That's what stalkers do.  When I am in Dreaming mode, I "inhabit the experience in the Now", but the reason Toltec teaches that a warrior must learn both dreaming AND stalking is because there does come a time when we are required (by ourselves) to form a foundation of Knowledge that is both fluid and cohesive, at the same time.  Dreaming (fluidity) and stalking (cohesion). 

Yep, I have my own approach, laid out in the chart for myself, when I dream/sleep time, I stalk and am lucid, and when awake, strangely approach the world as a 'dream' and attempt to see things as they are. Oddly enough, it works, well so far anyway.

Quote

So, this question is posed from the point of view of a stalker:  When you say you have faith in the universe, spirit and power... my question becomes... how would you define those things?  What I'm getting at is that when people say they have faith in spirit or the universe, they are usually envisioning some manner of extant "power" - whether god, goddess, atman, or other - and at that point, there is still what amounts to an abdication of power and responsibility from the "self" to something "other".

Only speaking for myself, but if I do lean on faith, its more that goes like this - im not separate from the universe as in yes, I am here, and small, speck of insignificant lint within it, yet, at the same time, im still a reflection of the universe, and its within me. Like my post I did when I said, per our circulatory system, if we took every vein, artery, capillary, and stranded all the strings together, it is equal to 60,000 miles and could wrap around the world two and a half times its circumference. Thats in one lone, human body. That, is an incredible feat, to think we have that many veins, arteries, capillaries in our bodies. And we do have our own universe essence within.

The only thing I can do, when stalking or dreaming - is to do my best to see things as they are, and take the world, and whatever gold or dung is offered and transform myself. Glass vs steel people - is all I can do. I do certainly care about fellow man if they may say, destroy themselves or not, or continue to fall for their own folly. However, I certainly understand in reality, we can only do our little part, cannot save the world from stupid and greedy people.

Still though, somewhere, The Force, seems to hold it together. I see it, in various ways, when even say, certain things like the folly strikes (like the drama with our economy) what occurs? People start examining themselves, cutting expenses, stop being superficial and greedy. If anything economy is a decent reflector of one of the significance of the force - chaos and order. So somewhere if we're operating like that, must be a force in some manner. Some form of odd self-preservation of the species to not destroy ourselves completely - though we take ourselves to near-destruction each little cycle we create.

The world is mad and nuts and its going to cycle. All we can really do is see things as they are and not allow it to drag us down with, try to do our own part, but not become consumed and absorbed by its madness. Ultimately then per faith, I have faith in the force, and myself to be able to make it thru - no matter what, come what may, all I can do.

Quote


  Maybe that's not what you mean.  That's what I'm trying to get at here.  What DO you mean?  Without a further refernce point, they are just words hanging in a void.  What is the universe? What is spirit?  What is power?  Not questions you need to answer if you don't want to - just trying to point out that our definitions of these things, and our experience of them, is not going to be the same, so part of coming to an understanding involves building a common language (as much as is possible - which may be altogether impossible...  :-\

Much to me is a mystery and unknowable. I dont think we'll ever achieve our theory of everything - least not in the lifetime - there is just 'too much' for now. But we can know ourselves best of our ability and do our own work. Spirit I do believe is within really, everything, and spirit is also us. Power, is something that we do have - however, I agree per this 'secret shit,' it isnt about that. I utilize my power best I can, for myself say, break free from the wheel of samsara, which really is pretty much, the CR and not much different.

Quote

The bottom line is simply this:  too many people I encounter (including myself!) fall into comfort zones of believing that if they wish for something or hope for something, it is going to come to them.  That was part of the whole platform of the latest spiritual fad - "The Secret."  The concepts may work at a core level, but unless combined with actual ACTION (dreaming and stalking working together - thought/idea becoming manifested through intent)) they tend to sit dormant in the back of the mind as a "comfort zone".   We lose ourselves in "hoping" and put off the "do-ing".

yeah the main flaw I see with the secret crap is, people are getting set up in this 'abundance mindset,' which is really just folks telling people what they want to hear. But yet they're saying you can command the world to give you, material shit. Thats great. Isnt unhooking from the desire or need for superficialism and materialism an aim? Like really seeking as much independence as we can from the CR. Im not saying, per interconnectedness we can be solely independent, dont get me wrong (I need food, air by golly to breathe - we have basic necessities if we want to live awhile), but I look at and get rid of what I dont need and what can weigh me down. But folks want to command the universe to give them more things to be attached to? And more material items to be attached to? Or even send them some hot lover (to be attached to? LOL). So its really to me no 'secret' that people are really tricking their minds. Oh, I got a check, it mustve been the secret. No, could've been, you were due a tax return - lol.

There is work involved and folks who believe in things like the 'secret' say, are folks who dont want to work, and do it. Nothing is gained without 'work' and effort. Its like exercise. No one gets into marathon shape and can run a triathlon by sitting on their ass eating chips and drinking beer, commanding the universe they'll win the race, lol.

Quote

Doesn't matter, of course.  It's not my intent or even my hope to change your thinking.   :)  Heartfelt.  My intent is only to challenge my own comfort zones - and that often comes in the form of presenting ideas that are not particularly popular.  My contention is that if I am "disturbed" by something you say (or vice versa) the stalking exercise has been successful.  Obviously (to me anyway) knowledge cannot be traded in the form of words alone.  Anything you say to me, anything I say to you, must be filtered through our own processes - and hopefully somewhere in that do-ing, we not only understand ourselves better, but we also build a more cohesive "foundation" that welcomes challenge as an opportunity for growth, rather than automatically retreating from it as a threat to ego or existing comfort zones.

So, since it seem to be an issue and a question, allow me to say publicly that I'm not seeking an "argument."  I'm trying to stimulate my own thinking by engaging with others.  That is not going to involve joining any consensus and there will be times when it will not even be "politically correct."  But, in the bigger picture, isn't that what the path is all about?  Challenging our comfort zones?  Abolishing all belief systems (including what we believe about words), until we stand face to face with the authentic self?

If we're just here to agree with one another, we're wasting our time.

Heartfelt, unconditionally,
D



No, they were good sentiments, and really I think per our country as a bunch of greedy folks got us into a huge hole, per the war and this whole housing and loan deal, like Obama said its got to get worse before it gets better, thanks to the fat cats who couldnt stop wanting to get fatter and fatter, off the fat off someone's back. I wouldnt go into the realm of saying 'we're flowered,' but im not expecting any miracles anytime soon. I dont have say, faith that, we're going to see social security when we retire, things like that. We've really tapped out even the reserves. But Im really hoping course, that we dont slip into a great depression cause of these dumbasses and have to stand in an eight hour line to get a loaf of bread, per the damage to the economy, so hopefully that wont happen, but if I see it then sure, hope will be gone I guess, but Ill survive either way.
Title: Re: US Elections 2008 - Why Obama ran for President
Post by: Firestarter on January 16, 2009, 04:23:08 AM
(http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/afp/20090115/capt.photo_1232033712518-1-0.jpg?)

Obama tells daughters he ran for president for them, all children (http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090115/ts_alt_afp/uspoliticsobamachildren)

hr 37 mins ago AFP/File – US president-elect Barack Obama (L) with his daughters Malia(C) and Sasha on vacation in 2008.

WASHINGTON (AFP) – In an open letter to his young daughters, US president-elect Barack Obama said Thursday that he entered the race for the White House "because of what I want for you and for every child in this nation."

"When I was a young man, I thought life was all about me -- about how I'd make my way in the world, become successful, and get the things I want. But then the two of you came into my world," Obama said in the letter published in Parade magazine, a weekend newspaper color supplement.

"I realized that my own life wouldn't count for much unless I was able to ensure that you had every opportunity for happiness and fulfilment in yours. In the end, girls, that's why I ran for President: because of what I want for you and for every child in this nation," wrote the soon-to-be Dad-in-chief.

Obama's wish-list for children includes challenging and inspirational schools; equal opportunity to go to university, regardless of their family's financial standing; and well-paid jobs with benefits such as health care and a pension plan that will allow them to "retire with dignity."

The 47-year-old father of Malia, 10, and Sasha, 7, said he wants to "push the boundaries" of discovery to encourage the development of new technology and inventions that improve lives and protect the environment.

And he spoke of his vision of a United States that has reached "beyond the divides of race and region, gender and religion that keep us from seeing the best in each other."

He would strive to send young Americans to war "only for a very good reason", trying first to settle differences with other nations peacefully.

"These are the things I want for you -- to grow up in a world with no limits on your dreams and no achievements beyond your reach, and to grow into compassionate, committed women who will help build that world," wrote Obama.

"And I want every child to have the same chances to learn and dream and grow and thrive that you girls have. That's why I've taken our family on this great adventure," wrote Obama, who on Tuesday will move into the White House with his two daughters and wife, Michelle.


~~~~~~

'What I Want for You — and Every Child
in America'
By President-elect Barack Obama
Publication Date: 01/14/2009

Great inaugural moments
 
Next Tuesday, Barack Obama will be sworn in as our 44th President. On this historic occasion, PARADE asked the President-elect, who is also a devoted family man, to get personal and tell us what he wants for his children. Here, he shares his letter to them.

The Full Letter  (http://www.parade.com/export/sites/default/news/2009/01/barack-obama-letter-to-my-daughters.html)


Dear Malia and Sasha,

I know that you've both had a lot of fun these last two years on the campaign trail, going to picnics and parades and state fairs, eating all sorts of junk food your mother and I probably shouldn't have let you have. But I also know that it hasn't always been easy for you and Mom, and that as excited as you both are about that new puppy, it doesn't make up for all the time we've been apart. I know how much I've missed these past two years, and today I want to tell you a little more about why I decided to take our family on this journey.

When I was a young man, I thought life was all about me-about how I'd make my way in the world, become successful, and get the things I want. But then the two of you came into my world with all your curiosity and mischief and those smiles that never fail to fill my heart and light up my day. And suddenly, all my big plans for myself didn't seem so important anymore. I soon found that the greatest joy in my life was the joy I saw in yours. And I realized that my own life wouldn't count for much unless I was able to ensure that you had every opportunity for happiness and fulfillment in yours. In the end, girls, that's why I ran for President: because of what I want for you and for every child in this nation.

I want all our children to go to schools worthy of their potential-schools that challenge them, inspire them, and instill in them a sense of wonder about the world around them. I want them to have the chance to go to college-even if their parents aren't rich. And I want them to get good jobs: jobs that pay well and give them benefits like health care, jobs that let them spend time with their own kids and retire with dignity.

I want us to push the boundaries of discovery so that you'll live to see new technologies and inventions that improve our lives and make our planet cleaner and safer. And I want us to push our own human boundaries to reach beyond the divides of race and region, gender and religion that keep us from seeing the best in each other.

Sometimes we have to send our young men and women into war and other dangerous situations to protect our country-but when we do, I want to make sure that it is only for a very good reason, that we try our best to settle our differences with others peacefully, and that we do everything possible to keep our servicemen and women safe. And I want every child to understand that the blessings these brave Americans fight for are not free-that with the great privilege of being a citizen of this nation comes great responsibility.

That was the lesson your grandmother tried to teach me when I was your age, reading me the opening lines of the Declaration of Independence and telling me about the men and women who marched for equality because they believed those words put to paper two centuries ago should mean something.

She helped me understand that America is great not because it is perfect but because it can always be made better-and that the unfinished work of perfecting our union falls to each of us. It's a charge we pass on to our children, coming closer with each new generation to what we know America should be.

I hope both of you will take up that work, righting the wrongs that you see and working to give others the chances you've had. Not just because you have an obligation to give something back to this country that has given our family so much-although you do have that obligation. But because you have an obligation to yourself. Because it is only when you hitch your wagon to something larger than yourself that you will realize your true potential.

These are the things I want for you-to grow up in a world with no limits on your dreams and no achievements beyond your reach, and to grow into compassionate, committed women who will help build that world. And I want every child to have the same chances to learn and dream and grow and thrive that you girls have. That's why I've taken our family on this great adventure.

I am so proud of both of you. I love you more than you can ever know. And I am grateful every day for your patience, poise, grace, and humor as we prepare to start our new life together in the White House.



Love, Dad           



Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Firestarter on January 16, 2009, 04:30:30 AM
I sent that to my son on his myspace so he will get his ass in gear and take school seriously since Obama is his idol and he worships him. He has a poster of him in his bedroom.
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Jennifer- on January 16, 2009, 04:34:44 AM
 :) :-*
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Firestarter on January 16, 2009, 04:43:09 AM
This one is in his room:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41kR0R19bSL._SS500_.jpg)

"Our Destiny is not written for us, but by us."
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: tangerine dream on January 16, 2009, 06:12:00 AM
This one is in his room:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41kR0R19bSL._SS500_.jpg)

"Our Destiny is not written for us, but by us."

Nice!


Beautiful family he has.
Shiney ones of all them!
 ;)
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: nichi on January 16, 2009, 06:29:05 AM
This one is in his room:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41kR0R19bSL._SS500_.jpg)

"Our Destiny is not written for us, but by us."

I feel warm and pleased when I look at this picture.
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Firestarter on January 16, 2009, 06:40:48 AM
Nice!


Beautiful family he has.
Shiney ones of all them!
 ;)

I have good feelings about him, esp that letter he wrote to his daughters. I may be placing a bit of hope into it - but I feel that letter he wrote his children was sincere - tho certainly addressed to many other 'children' in the USA. It was good. (and yes he has a gorgeous family).
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Jahn on January 16, 2009, 06:46:22 AM
The Hero (Barack himself) and the Amazon (his wife, that btw is the strongest of them two - women are always stronger ...) must now do a heroic performance while he the Hero at the same time should pick up the role and vibrations of the Father (responsibility, trust, stability, solvency etc.).

Behind every successful man there is a woman. But this will not be any "Yes Nancy - No Nancy" rulership. ;D
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Firestarter on January 16, 2009, 07:27:06 AM
The Hero (Barack himself) and the Amazon (his wife, that btw is the strongest of them two - women are always stronger ...) must now do a heroic performance while he the Hero at the same time should pick up the role and vibrations of the Father (responsibility, trust, stability, solvency etc.).

Behind every successful man there is a woman. But this will not be any "Yes Nancy - No Nancy" rulership. ;D

Hehe! I remember too she got a lotta flack for consulting astrologers as well LOL!
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Firestarter on January 16, 2009, 07:54:16 AM
During the election I wasnt sure who I was gonna vote for. First, not big on labels, politicians or politics. But also being from AZ, I dont have any animosity against McCain. Matter of fact, if he had become president instead of Bush, I think our country would've seen far different things occur for us after 9/11 - but can only speculate cause whats done is done. Cause at least McCain had been to war, had been a POW for five years (I actually did an interp on his chart when he was shot down, I might bring it later - its elsewhere on web). I wasnt sure, my son was rooting for Obama in home, but esp when I saw that Palin, went and got a wardrobe and $4000 haircut, I said "flower that." But another thot, I did make comments on McCains homes, he has eight of them. But then later the thought came to mind, "He has eight homes, yet spent five years at Hanoi Hilton being tortured - who am I to judge?" So that thought came to mind that, while he may have that, and his wife Cindy may be extravagant (talk about being high maintenance), still, maybe something in his karma to have eight homes - the man went thru hell and I remember a statement he made per being tortured for five years over there, that the experience made him love his home America even more.

But still the party has to be wiped out and out of the white house. Obama I am really crossing fingers and many folks are, that he is the real deal. And of course theres all sorts of conspiracy theories about him, his religion, his ideals and strategy - also cause theres a huge lack of trust in politics in general in this country; however, Im still riding on the deal that hes gonna have to be it - its sink or swim. Im sure we'll pull through the bullshit eventually - but certainly all this drama has made all americans more alert and aware - and I think we all do this everytime, get comfortable for awhile til thrown into the depths of uncertainty - which really is the way things are - nothing is certain never is. And even great governments or countries many of them have fallen and become 'history' like greeks and romans - rome didnt fall in a day, as they say (and no one has ever really been able to solve the mystery on that one precisely 'what' did it, but I think nero really set off a lot of karma for rome - something about playing the instrument whilst rome burned - that comet signal was the beginning of the end or rome as it was known). Always sacrificing something - gladiators, christians to lions, hearts to sun gods - and still we do these things in other ways - men and women on the battlefields fighting in useless wars - now its their whole bodies - whats the difference with anyone from the aztecs, really - if we're sacrificing the young to the hungry war gods? It still goes on.

I liked what he said about striving for perfection though. I was reading a bit today in between calls about the India temples and some leave a corner of them unfinished - as a reminder to keep that we're not perfect as gods yet - and still have a way to go on the road to perfection - which is what its about - impeccability - thats what we're attempting to do - but our views however, arent perfect as the gods yet. We still create gods and project our loves and our wars onto them. Many also have a scapegoat called 'satan' whom they project all their blame for their own actions and ignorance on - the biggest scapegoat of all - the great excuse to not 'be perfect' as we can be. The great duality to see everything as 'us and them' and cause more division til theres a gap, which will take everyone under, no matter what 'side' we're on.

Yet we have to fall into the gap because the gap offers truth - that fine line is there at the razors edge, where its all one and there isnt necessarily any 'good side' or 'bad side.' its a game we play back and forth on the road to perfection.

So I suppose like the quote - thinking on all these doom and gloom prophecies - tis true, destiny isnt written for us, but by us. "Fate" occurs, when we ignore that - the obvious.
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: tangerine dream on January 16, 2009, 11:33:46 AM
one of my favourite quotes I've heard Obama say is this:

"there has never been anything false about hope."

Y'all know how I feel about hope, so of course he won me over.

Title: Obama Wins Nobel Peace Prize
Post by: Nichi on October 09, 2009, 10:27:14 PM
Shoot, you all had me persuaded that "hope" was just an American saw, and yet, look -- apparently it's valued in places other than the US.  :)

In a surprise, Obama wins Nobel Peace Prize

OSLO – President Barack Obama won the 2009 Nobel Peace Prize on Friday for "his extraordinary efforts to strengthen international diplomacy and cooperation between peoples," the Norwegian Nobel Committee said, citing his outreach to the Muslim world and attempts to curb nuclear proliferation.

The stunning choice made Obama the third sitting U.S. president to win the Nobel Peace Prize and shocked Nobel observers because Obama took office less than two weeks before the Feb. 1 nomination deadline. Obama's name had been mentioned in speculation before the award but many Nobel watchers believed it was too early to award the president.

Speculation had focused on Zimbabwe's Prime Minister Morgan Tsvangirai, a Colombian senator and a Chinese dissident, along with an Afghan woman's rights activist.

The Nobel committee praised Obama's creation of "a new climate in international politics" and said he had returned multilateral diplomacy and institutions like the U.N. to the center of the world stage. The plaudit appeared to be a slap at President George W. Bush from a committee that harshly criticized Obama's predecessor for resorting to largely unilateral military action in the wake of the Sept. 11 terror attacks.

Rather than recognizing concrete achievement, the 2009 prize appeared intended to support initiatives that have yet to bear fruit: reducing the world stock of nuclear arms, easing American conflicts with Muslim nations and strengthening the U.S. role in combating climate change.

"Only very rarely has a person to the same extent as Obama captured the world's attention and given its people hope for a better future," Thorbjoern Jagland, chairman of the Nobel Committee said. "In the past year Obama has been a key person for important initiatives in the U.N. for nuclear disarmament and to set a completely new agenda for the Muslim world and East-West relations."

He added that the committee endorsed "Obama's appeal that 'Now is the time for all of us to take our share of responsibility for a global response to global challenges.'"

President Theodore Roosevelt won the award in 1906 and President Woodrow Wilson won in 1919.

The committee chairman said after awarding the 2002 prize to former Democratic President Jimmy Carter, for his mediation in international conflicts, that it should be seen as a "kick in the leg" to the Bush administration's hard line in the buildup to the Iraq war.

Five years later, the committee honored Bush's adversary in the 2000 presidential election, Al Gore, for his campaign to raise awareness about global warming.

The Nobel committee received a record 205 nominations for this year's prize though it was not immediately apparent who nominated Obama.

"The exciting and important thing about this prize is that it's given too someone ... who has the power to contribute to peace," Norwegian Prime Minister Jens Stoltenberg said.

Nominators include former laureates; current and former members of the committee and their staff; members of national governments and legislatures; university professors of law, theology, social sciences, history and philosophy; leaders of peace research and foreign affairs institutes; and members of international courts of law.

The Nelson Mandela Foundation welcomed the award on behalf of its founder Nelson Mandela, who shared the 1993 Peace Prize with then-South African President F.W. DeKlerk for their efforts at ending years of apartheid and laying the groundwork for a democratic country.

"We trust that this award will strengthen his commitment, as the leader of the most powerful nation in the world, to continue promoting peace and the eradication of poverty," the foundation said.

In his 1895 will, Alfred Nobel stipulated that the peace prize should go "to the person who shall have done the most or the best work for fraternity between the nations and the abolition or reduction of standing armies and the formation and spreading of peace congresses."

Unlike the other Nobel Prizes, which are awarded by Swedish institutions, he said the peace prize should be given out by a five-member committee elected by the Norwegian Parliament. Sweden and Norway were united under the same crown at the time of Nobel's death.

The committee has taken a wide interpretation of Nobel's guidelines, expanding the prize beyond peace mediation to include efforts to combat poverty, disease and climate change.

___

Associated Press Writer Ian MacDougall contributed to this report.
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Jennifer- on October 09, 2009, 10:37:56 PM
 :)
Title: Re: Obama Wins Nobel Peace Prize
Post by: Nichi on October 09, 2009, 10:44:35 PM
Obama gets reward for world view 

By Paul Reynolds
World affairs correspondent BBC News website 


In awarding President Obama the Nobel Peace Prize, the Norwegian committee is honouring his intentions more than his achievements.

After all he has been in office only just over eight months and he will presumably hope to serve eight years, so it is very early in his term to get this award.

The committee does not make any secret of its approach. It states that he is being given the prize "for his extraordinary efforts to strengthen international diplomacy and co-operation between peoples."

This is of course an implied criticism of former US president George W Bush and the neo-conservatives, who were often accused of trying to change the world in their image.

The committee "attached special importance to Obama's vision of and work for a world without nuclear weapons." But it also mentioned the UN, climate change and the "strengthening" of democracy and human rights.

The reference to democracy will be noted - perhaps wryly, perhaps with some resentment - by the neo-conservatives, as the spread of democracy, especially in the wider Middle East as they called it, (incorporating Afghanistan) was one of their rallying cries. The Norwegian committee was not impressed and it will probably be a case of vice versa.

The risk for President Obama is that he might not be able to live up to this billing.

It is therefore perhaps worth looking at some of the problems he faces, his intentions in dealing with them and the likelihood of success.

Nuclear weapons: The president has spoken of his wish to see a world without nuclear weapons. A new Security Council resolution (1887) has added momentum to next year's conference reviewing the Nuclear Non-Proliferation treaty, which will focus attention. He also wants the US Senate to ratify the test ban treaty.

But how far is the US really prepared to go? It hopes to get a new agreement with Russia in December to reduce deployed warheads to below the 2,200 already agreed. But having even hundreds of warheads is not living in a nuclear weapons-free world. And as long as others (Russia, China, Britain, France, India, Pakistan, Israel) have them, so will the US. Some progress is likely but nuclear weapons will remain.

Climate change: President Obama has changed the hostile approach adopted by President Bush. But much depends on the US Senate and Obama's intentions are conditional on congressional acceptance. Intention is there but realisation is problematic.

Human rights: The committee did not spell it out but the proposed closure of Guantanamo Bay and the end to torture by all US agencies must have been in its mind. Guantanamo is supposed to be closed by early next year. Likely to be achieved, though.

Iraq: The president has said that US combat operations in Iraq will stop by the end of August next year though US troops will remain there to train Iraqis and fight al-Qaeda. Intentions are therefore there but are not yet achieved, though might well be.

Iran: There is at least the start of a negotiation on Iran's nuclear work following Obama's "extended hand". But nobody can tell how far and fast this will go. The threat of conflict between Iran and Israel remains. Meanwhile, there are still no meaningful talks between Israel and the Palestinians.

Afghanistan: The most difficult current problem for the president. He is facing demands for an increase in US forces there, which would mean more war, hardly encouraging for a peace prize winner. Remains in crisis.

All these problems illustrate the intentions of the president, but also how far he has to go.

The Nobel Peace Prize committee has taken a bold step.

 
Title: Re: US Elections 2008
Post by: Firestarter on October 10, 2009, 03:06:02 AM
He's the man!