Soma
Tools of the Path => Christ [Public] => Topic started by: Taimyr on January 31, 2014, 05:55:47 AM
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When? Anytime soon? What do you think?
I've heard it is already happening. There are some signs in the world, in nature and society. Catastrhophes, revelations.
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I suggest you read Barbara Tuchman's 'A Distant Mirror' (Kauge peegel).
http://www.amazon.com/Distant-Mirror-Calamitous-14th-Century/dp/0345349571
https://www.rahvaraamat.ee/p/kauge-peegel/25289/et?isbn=9789949438631
You'll discover that what happens in our world now is nowhere near being unique or extraordinary.
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After all Jesus was a real being. And it is said in the Bible that the second coming will happen. One doesn't have to be a Christian to read the Bible. Bible doesn't equal christianity.
I have been reading, there is a lot of mention of the second coming. Jesus was a being who brought this spiritual information into the world, christianity is what people made of it after. I'm not familiar with the English version of the Bible but I think the chapter that says a lot about second coming is the "Revelation" in the New Testament.
To me it seems that Bible has the clearest spiritual message next to CC's books. In the beginning greating the world and humans. What we call "Gods" may be our creators. Humanity is kind of like and experiment, to see if we are capable of evolving spiritually. Then there comes a time to harvest, which I suppose is the second coming.
If I can find the right spots in the English version, I will quote.
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I think of Jesus sort of like an alien in a human body. A highly evovled being, or one of Gods, which is why he was able to do all these miracles. But he must not be the only one, there must be more of these highly evovled beings somewhere. What seems impossible for us, is natural to them. Flying saucers, crop circles and so on, could be all connected.
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I think of Jesus sort of like an alien in a human body. A highly evovled being, or one of Gods, which is why he was able to do all these miracles. But he must not be the only one, there must be more of these highly evovled beings somewhere. What seems impossible for us, is natural to them. Flying saucers, crop circles and so on, could be all connected.
You might find all of this interesting, Taimi:
A List of the Ascended Masters (http://www.alphaimaging.co.nz/themasters.htm#list)
This is based on the work of Alice Bailey, who has been (rightly) criticized as racist in decades since. Nonetheless, her system is the basis of the idea that these "Ascended masters" are working on specific rays of energy.
From Wiki:
The Seven Rays of energy
Underlying her writings is the idea that all is energy and that spirit, matter, and the psychic forces intermediate between them are forms of energy.[39] This energy is life itself.[40] From one essential energy, divinity, proceed seven rays that underlie and shape the evolution of human life and the entire phenomenal world.[41] On a cosmic level, these seven rays of energy are the creative forces of planets and stars. On a microcosmic level, they are the creative forces conditioning the physical, psychic, and spiritual constitution of man. (Jurriaance, p. 73–152)
In Esoteric Psychology I, the first book of A Treatise on the Seven Rays, Bailey writes that the "one Life sought expansion" resulting in seven aeons, or emanations, manifesting in the expression of life, becoming the "seven Rishis of all the ancient scriptures."[42]
She enumerates these seven as:[43]
The Lord of Power or Will
The Lord of Love-Wisdom
The Lord of Active Intelligence
The Lord of Harmony, Beauty and Art
The Lord of Concrete Knowledge and Science
The Lord of Devotion and Idealism
The Lord of Ceremonial Order or Magic
Although described as "Lords" and "persons", Bailey states that these "great forces" are not to be understood in terms of human personality. She cautions that any description of such things must be couched in terms of our particular planet, such that humanity can understand it, but that these "pure Beings ... have purposes and activities in which our Earth plays only a minor part."[42]
In Bailey's concept the rays and all things manifest in centers of energy and their relationships.[44] All rays and centers are focuses of some type of evolving life or consciousness. (Jurriaance, p. 35–52) This includes everything from atoms to centers or chakras in the human constitution, and upwards through the human aura to groups of humans as centers, and cities and nations as centers. (Jurriaance, pp. 79–90 ) Humanity as a whole is conceived as a center of energy as are the masters of wisdom of which she writes.[45] Likewise, planet Earth as a whole, with all its subsidiary centers of life, is viewed as a center of life within the large life or divinity of our solar system.
The concept of the seven rays can also be found in Theosophical works.[46] Campbell writes that Bailey, "...was the first to develop the idea of the seven rays, although it can be found in germ in earlier Theosophical writings."[47] The seven rays also appear in Hindu religious philosophy.[48][49]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_Bailey
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Taimi, one of things with revelation and the book of daniel is that before there can be a second coming of christ, the jewish people must have a temple. Their temple was destroyed in ad 70, which Jesus did predict it would happen. Anyway, for certain things to be ticked off, they must have a temple in jerusalem which they do not, as this is where the antichrist would go into the temple and declare himself God, and everyone would know then who he was. Then it is seven years of hell and Jesus comes back, according to the book. But there are so many different interps of Revelation and The Book of Daniel so hard to say it all. But basically as long as the Jewish people do not have a temple, this cannot happen. Right now the Dome of the Rock stands in the place of where the Jewish people once had a temple and there is no way they would dare tear it down for the Jewish people to build one in its place. All they have presently is the wailing wall.
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A quote from that site:
"An Ascended Master is a Being of Light, who has had many lives in a physical body, just like you – and through these lives and their own freewill and hard work have raised their vibration and consciousness. They have attained mastery over themselves and the elements through time and space. They have left the cycle of rebirth."
When it comes to Jesus, I don't think he had to be a human before. I believe there are beings who actually don't live as humans, they have their level of awareness in their own realm, which is unimaginable for us, humans, since we haven't seen anything else. So I think he came down from this other realm, he didn't evolve from a human.
You might find all of this interesting, Taimi:
A List of the Ascended Masters (http://www.alphaimaging.co.nz/themasters.htm#list)
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He didnt have a normal conception according to the book, but he did clearly have a mother according to the NT and a normal birth. Another reason this would be important is because when resurrected, Thomas (from the 'doubting thomas) put his finger through the piercings of his hands from the crucifixion. Also in the Bible it does teach of him being a child during the times, like when he went to the temple and spoke to priests which acknowledged he had a good handle on the scriptures for his age.
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When it comes to Jesus, I don't think he had to be a human before.
This statement indicates you have a strong faith in Jesus. Respectfully, I can acknowledge a generic "Christ Consciousness", but I am not a follower of Jesus. So it's best that I duck out of this discussion. It looks like Ellen is better able to serve here - as well as Jahn and Juhani, no doubt.
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I mean the "soul" or energetic essence of him. I see myself and most of the humanity as born only from earth and have only a local awareness, sort of like an animal, who has a chance to evolve to be more than that. But he already came from other realm to this body that he used as a vessel. Of course we may think that we are already divine and have an eternal life after bodily existence, but I don't think it is that simple. Even don Juan spoke of this getting past the eagle and that most people's awareness just burns and nothing is left.
He didnt have a normal conception according to the book, but he did clearly have a mother according to the NT and a normal birth. Another reason this would be important is because when resurrected, Thomas (from the 'doubting thomas) put his finger through the piercings of his hands from the crucifixion. Also in the Bible it does teach of him being a child during the times, like when he went to the temple and spoke to priests which acknowledged he had a good handle on the scriptures for his age.
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You don't have to be a follower of Jesus to read the Bible and make your own conclusion, like with any other spiritual material.
This statement indicates you have a strong faith in Jesus. Respectfully, I can acknowledge a generic "Christ Consciousness", but I am not a follower of Jesus. So it's best that I duck out of this discussion. It looks like Ellen is better able to serve here - as well as Jahn and Juhani, no doubt.
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I mean the "soul" or energetic essence of him. I see myself and most of the humanity as born only from earth and have only a local awareness, sort of like an animal, who has a chance to evolve to be more than that. But he already came from other realm to this body that he used as a vessel. Of course we may think that we are already divine and have an eternal life after bodily existence, but I don't think it is that simple. Even don Juan spoke of this getting past the eagle and that most people's awareness just burns and nothing is left.
Ok. Just very important he took physical form because if he had been like a ghost, he could not have suffered as he did. And even resurrected per the teachings he rose in the physical form which is important per the Thomas experience when he put his fingers through his hands. The Jehovah witnesses say he rose like a ghost but this would be incorrect per the book because of what Thomas experienced, and of course, there was no body in the temple when Mary Magdalena went there to anoint his body.
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You don't have to be a follower of Jesus to read the Bible and make your own conclusion, like with any other spiritual material.
I've read the Bible. I don't have the working knowledge of it that Ellen and Jahn do, but yes, we all can read many things without having to wear the name badge -- from the Bhagavad Gita to the Koran to the Bible to all the other sacred texts of humankind.
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I've read the Bible. I don't have the working knowledge of it that Ellen and Jahn do, but yes, we all can read many things without having to wear the name badge -- from the Bhagavad Gita to the Koran to the Bible.
Very true. I do believe in Jesus still but I think a lot of the bible is lost in translation. Like I believe there are other ways to God, and that other religions have good intent like christianity has good intent (when you set aside the fundy interpretations)! It all works together somehow, tho we all have different philosophies when it comes to such things. This is why I prefer to wear no label. I take on one, then I am not acknowledging others fairly. And I see value in most of them. Sure there are some I dont care for, but I keep my opinions on such things to myself.
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The Unitarian Universalists have had a tendency to believe that it is our job to create heaven on earth. Then perhaps the second coming is the awakening of the Christ consciousness within the masses, and the full material actualization of that.
UU's, though I love their community, lack an esoteric center. I believe such a center would be needed to channel higher energies throughout the efforts of the rest of the group. In other words they need a center that is a clear, minimally sullied, reflection of the goal they are seeking...I.e. an esoteric center that is the embodiment of heaven on earth.
To achieve such a thing would be momentus, and I am not holding my breath for it. Though if I had to cast my lot I would cast it with the UU's as they are tolerant of just about every religion, and striving for heaven on earth makes more sense to me than waiting for it to happen at some unknown time.
I had a friend who was a Jehovah's witness, and would debate religious, and philosophical questions. He could never sufficiently defend the position of sitting back and waiting for the second coming. It was always, humans are flawed, so we have to wait for Christ.
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In the Bible it is said that the father himself will come and take away the land from the landlords. The way the society is built, on profit, greed, all kinds of sexual disorientations, injustice and so on, and not accepting spiritual values, is wrong and the way I understand bible, is that Spirit will come and change that in a big way. I just hope I get to see this.
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Not sure even Jesus could do this thing - I thought only women were capable of it.
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Well you can make joke about it now, but when it really happens, don't think it's that funny anymore ::)
Not sure even Jesus could do this thing - I thought only women were capable of it.
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Well you can make joke about it now, but when it really happens, don't think it's that funny anymore ::)
You should think twice before making statements like this. What is it? Veiled threat that some big boys would come and show some justice? That they would come and stuff non-believers? This is how it reads, and if this is not what you wanted to say, think about what and how you say. As of now, it sounds like a threat from evangelical Christian.
Taimi, think now. External saviour? Someone would come and change the world? Would take away 'their' lands? How long would it take for these people to take their lands back? How many people do you know who do not want to have their own land? Are they majority among the people you know? Who could change the people from outside? Who could draw the line between greedy and less greedy people?
Jesus never aspired to be a person who would forcefully change the world. He merely showed the way people shoud live their lives. He never-ever promised anyone directly to take them to paradise. Never. Even on the cross he said that he would meet the other crucified men at his Father's place, but said nothing about taking them there.
Before jumping to Bible as a source of truth, think again. There are four canonical gospels in Bible that were selected deliberately and rationally (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_of_the_Christian_biblical_canon). There are more gospels and texts known as 'apocrypha' (http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/apocrypha.html) that were excluded from Bible on 'doctrinal grounds'. Hence, somebody already knew what is truth and how it should look like. Read the excluded texts and texts of essenes as well before you take anything compiled 350 years after Jesus as the ultimate truth, or reasonable promise of the better world.
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And why not, why do you think it is impossible?
The line between greedy on nongreedy - well that would be quite simple to see, I mean there are beings who can see through you, into your soul.
Lets say the whole sky will be full of aliens, wouldn't that be a big change? If mankind was taken over by other beings, with much more evolved technology. Would be quite easy for them. The reason this hasn't happened yet, is simply because they have given us the freedom to run Earth ourselves and haven't been invited to intervene. But I think it will happen, there are many people who wait for intervening and intend them to come.
I haven't talked about being taken to paradise and saviour btw.
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What aliens???
Jesus showed that if one lives following some principles and is not afraid to change, amazing abilities manifest. Jesus was a human. Here as well as at other places are seers who have met him and who have put forth their experiences.
Moreover, Jesus was against violence. Any kind of it. He talked about change within that people should strive for. A violent external change does not really change anything. A short look at human history would suffice.
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Its quite depraved to want to see the Apocalypse in one's lifetime, IMO
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Why do you think he was only a human? He was not, he was sent by Spirit "himself", son of God as they say. Which means he must have had a consciousness before entering to human body, so he was a separate being already before coming to Earth as a human.
There is a lot written in the Bible about the history of Earth and what will happen, I'm not making this up.
What aliens???
Jesus showed that if one lives following some principles and is not afraid to change, amazing abilities manifest. Jesus was a human. Here as well as at other places are seers who have met him and who have put forth their experiences.
Moreover, Jesus was against violence. Any kind of it. He talked about change within that people should strive for. A violent external change does not really change anything. A short look at human history would suffice.
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I don't think so, I know many who are tired of the ways of humans and wait for change. I'd rather have the Apocalypse than continue in this insane world.
Its quite depraved to want to see the Apocalypse in one's lifetime, IMO
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Why do you think he was only a human? He was not, he was sent by Spirit "himself", son of God as they say. Which means he must have had a consciousness before entering to human body, so he was a separate being already before coming to Earth as a human.
There is a lot written in the Bible about the history of Earth and what will happen, I'm not making this up.
Believe it if you want, but in the future, please be intelligent enough not to launch arguments on issues of faith. There is nothing to argue about if one proceeds from faith and beliefs. Only seeing and serious work on Self would allow one to judge and argue about whether there is any substance to things one believes in.
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I don't think so, I know many who are tired of the ways of humans and wait for change. I'd rather have the Apocalypse than continue in this insane world.
A third of the earth is destroyed and many many people die. ANd you find this a good thing? Are you so sick in the head you wish this on mankind?
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I don't think so, I know many who are tired of the ways of humans and wait for change. I'd rather have the Apocalypse than continue in this insane world.
I should add a very basic truth of Toltec path here: change yourself and you'll stop seeing life in this world as an unbearable burden on yourself. You think life of DJ was easy? Or lives of new seers who had to survive medieval darkness and persecution by Inquisition? That's what path to freedom is rather than getting depressed and wishing everyone to be stuffed.
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Nothing wrong with my life personally. But that doesn't stop me from seeing that the world is sick.
I should add a very basic truth of Toltec path here: change yourself and you'll stop seeing life in this world as an unbearable burden on yourself. You think life of DJ was easy? Or lives of new seers who had to survive medieval darkness of Inquisition? That's what path to freedom is rather than getting depressed and wishing everyone to be stuffed.
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The ones who are worth it, wont die. And besides, we die anyway, does it make a difference when or how?
A third of the earth is destroyed and many many people die. ANd you find this a good thing? Are you so sick in the head you wish this on mankind?
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The ones who are worth it, wont die. And besides, we die anyway, does it make a difference when or how?
You already said you haven't read the book much. That is not true. Good people die in the Apocalypse too. The rapture is not in the book of Rev and no one truly know what Paul was talking about.
IOW all suffer.
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I will talk about what ever I feel like talking about :) If you think it's based simply on faith then fine, believe what you want.
I'm not talking to have an argument btw. If you could be a bit more open then we would have a conversation, not an argument. But you think of this idea as crap without even considering it for a second.
Believe it if you want, but in the future, please be intelligent enough not to launch arguments on issues of faith. There is nothing to argue about if one proceeds from faith and beliefs. Only seeing and serious work on Self would allow one to judge and argue about whether there is any substance to things one believes in.
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Nothing wrong with my life personally. But that doesn't stop me from seeing that the world is sick.
Many things wrong with what you seem to wish upon people around you. If this is the negative energy you want splash at this place right now, I can only say that you could not have chosen a worse moment.
You would do better to go somewhere else with your ill wishes and thinking who is worth what. Really, think about it and be an adult.
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Most of the world already suffers, since a long time.
Of course I'm lot giving some ultimate truth here and exact way of how things should proceed, I don't know what will happen exactly. I just talk aboout what I read out from there.
You already said you haven't read the book much. That is not true. Good people die in the Apocalypse too. The rapture is not in the book of Rev and no one truly know what Paul was talking about.
IOW all suffer.
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Most of the world already suffers, since a long time.
Of course I'm lot giving some ultimate truth here and exact way of how things should proceed, I don't know what will happen exactly. I just talk aboout what I read out from there.
A third of the earth is destroyed, pestilence, famine, death everywhere. Imagine a worse war than the world war. Pure terror. And you really think mankind is so depraved it deserved such a wrath? I think that very sad. SO did you support the Holocaust as well? It would be another one of that, but magnified.
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It is your interpretation that I have ill wishes. It is written in the Bible and supportive information about it comes through all the time.
Many things wrong with what you seem to wish upon people around you. If this is the negative energy you want splash at this place right now, I can only say that you could not have chosen a worse moment.
You would do better to go somewhere else with your ill wishes and thinking who is worth what. Really, think about it and be an adult.
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I didn't say anything about terror and wars. I said CHANGE in an unimaginable way.
A third of the earth is destroyed, pestilence, famine, death everywhere. Imagine a worse war than the world war. Pure terror. And you really think mankind is so depraved it deserved such a wrath? I think that very sad. SO did you support the Holocaust as well? It would be another one of that, but magnified.
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It is also said that thousand years of piece will come after. That is something to look forward to, even with the cost of apocaplypse, IMO.
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I didn't say anything about terror and wars. I said CHANGE in an unimaginable way.
That would be change with the Apocalypse. Pure terror. You really need to buckle down and read it and stop reading the internet for this info.
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Ellen, it is obvious which way Taimi is pushing it, so let's leave her at that, ok? I'd say it is better to leave this where it stands, and keep our energies flowing where the most serious things are taking place. :)
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I am reading the Bible, not the interpretations of some others.
Honestly I don't understand why you both get so pissed off about this. I din't make this up.
That would be change with the Apocalypse. Pure terror. You really need to buckle down and read it and stop reading the internet for this info.
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It is sick and sad to wish an apocalypse on mankind. You would think with seeing something like the Holocaust in history, you would not want to see mankind in such a horrible state of suffering. I dont care if a million years follows, I dont think it good that non-believers should suffer such a thing, which is what most of the churches do interpret would occur. They will suffer whether good people or not. You have a very unhealthy detachment to humanity, like either you think your better or not one of us or something - but you lack the ability to empathize or feel for people, in such an unhealthy manner I think you need professional help.
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Ellen, it is obvious which way Taimi is pushing it, so let's leave her at that, ok? I'd say it is better to leave this where it stands, and keep our energies flowing where the most serious things are taking place. :)
Ok I had my say. Im done now. ANd yes I agree this negativity, esp to be wishing suffering on mankind, is really bad timing. I really think soma needs to be a healing forum right now. Ill post some more healing things later on to try to make up for this sick hot mess.
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The difference is that Holocaust was arranged by men. This big change in the world would be arranged by Spirit.
It is sick and sad to wish an apocalypse on mankind. You would think with seeing something like the Holocaust in history, you would not want to see mankind in such a horrible state of suffering. I dont care if a million years follows, I dont think it good that non-believers should suffer such a thing, which is what most of the churches do interpret would occur. They will suffer whether good people or not. You have a very unhealthy detachment to humanity, like either you think your better or not one of us or something - but you lack the ability to empathize or feel for people, in such an unhealthy manner I think you need professional help.
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The difference is that Holocaust was arranged by men. This big change in the world would be arranged by Spirit.
You still dont get it. You are too gone and I dont know why you're in soma if you believe all this as you do.
People will suffer worse than a holocaust. The Holy Spirit, now you are accusing of murder. It is the antichrist who inflicts others with the drama, and the angels pour the wrath on the earth and destroy it. It would be a war of epic proportions and many people would die, and the earth would be a third destoryed. People would suffer worse than ever. You see this is good. You are sick in the head.
I think you're in the wrong forum Taimi. This crew is not for you if you wish this on humanity.
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Those suffer who haven't done repentance or who have something to lose and who are not willing to change their understanding of reality.
You still dont get it. You are too gone and I dont know why you're in soma if you believe all this as you do.
People will suffer worse than a holocaust. The Holy Spirit, now you are accusing of murder. It is the antichrist who inflicts others with the drama, and the angels pour the wrath on the earth and destroy it. It would be a war of epic proportions and many people would die, and the earth would be a third destoryed. People would suffer worse than ever. You see this is good. You are sick in the head.
I think you're in the wrong forum Taimi. This crew is not for you if you wish this on humanity.
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Those suffer who haven't done repentance or who have something to lose and who are not willing to change their understanding of reality.
No you're not reading it correctly. Everyone is going to suffer by such a thing. It isn't good people get to be free and the bad be punished. It is not that way. You do not know what you're talking about. Everyone living during that time will suffer.
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we will not all sleep, we will all be changed, the dead in christ shall rise up, then the living. This has been misinterpreted that believers would be spared nothing Paul said would be pre-Tribulation
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Never mind, if it will happen then we'll see how it happens. If it doesn't then we don't get to see this. But as much as I understand these events are supposed to happen with a higher spiritual cause and that is why I wait for it.
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The discussion, even in better times, boils down to "the Bible says", and the part which is missed is that those who do not buy or believe in "the Bible" really don't care what it says. It's no kind of reasonable argument, what "the Bible says".
At any rate, I support the notion that this is not the time to have this discussion. There are very pressing events around us, here and now.
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After all this area of the forums is called Christ, so what else should be taken as basis, than not Bible?
It is also not a very reasonable argument that I am sick and want humans to suffer.
Of course, bad timing, I don't see a reason to continue this.
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After all this area of the forums is called Christ, so what else should be taken as basis, than not Bible?
It is also not a very reasonable argument that I am sick and want humans to suffer.
Ok, then please, if you would, table this for a few days. Crucial things are happening right now.
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Of course, no worries. I am sure that Julie will heal fine, I have sent her some healing energy as well.
Ok, then please, if you would, table this for a few days. Crucial things are happening right now.
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I am reading the Bible, not the interpretations of some others.
Honestly I don't understand why you both get so pissed off about this. I din't make this up.
It is written in the Bible and supportive information about it comes through all the time.
I have studied the bible in classes of Theology and on my own for many years. The Bible is a mishmash and as Juhani said - the four gospels is a strict selection However it is the gospels that I like best.
Did you know that there are about 50 traditional stories told in different cultures about Moses (meaning that it is a myth). Did you know that God first let man become 700 years old but when he saw how men changed women (for pleasure or something) he reduced an ordinary Life span to 120 years.
Jesus was a rebel against the old Testament, instead of an Eye for an Eye Jesus said "do onto others ..." "love your neighbour" and so on.
But it is good that you find inspiration through the Bible, but perhaps you should try to take a more critical stand. The Bible hold not any truth per se.
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I have read the gospels.
I have studied the bible in classes of Theology and on my own for many years. The Bible is a mishmash and as Juhani said - the four gospels is a strict selection However it is the gospels that I like best.
Did you know that there are about 50 traditional stories told in different cultures about Moses (meaning that it is a myth). Did you know that God first let man become 700 years old but when he saw how men changed women (for pleasure or something) he reduced an ordinary Life span to 120 years.
Jesus was a rebel against the old Testament, instead of an Eye for an Eye Jesus said "do onto others ..." "love your neighbour" and so on.
But it is good that you find inspiration through the Bible, but perhaps you should try to take a more critical stand. The Bible hold not any truth per se.
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i will begin with this
take it as poetry amongst the other grass
why was the "lamb is god "?
this is a very good question perhaps related to
the alignments found throughout time
the return of the divine feminine
what is added in succession ? "time"" literal "awareness "
why are old songs slow and what is progression
if a biblical persona came to earth "again"
and was confronted by endoctrined "loyalists"
what conjecture might be met ?
what relation of symbols to certain movements throughout time
would be required to ascertain values both
symbolically " spirit "
and equally lain upon the earths sphere throughout that " re incarnation" buddhist term
or "timelessness s entry ?
'
if time lines exist to be stumbled upon through out the galaxy and
enter a "portal" or zero g turn around point
and localised "time "stationing" illuminates new and old fabrics throughout the
journey
the how would the mapping of 'unifying' "string theory " possibly be symbolised ?
another is what doe s it mean to be given "authority of god"
as mentioned in the return of the two witnesses
and the ability to open and close heaven ?
therefore what is heaven in those terms
and who would be so positioned to do so ?
back to the sandwiched mirrors
exacting the root upon the earth for the manifest seed
brought forth by
the "father " engaging "the mother "
is buddhism summed up in these initial passages ???
"The Beginning
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.
6 And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.” 7 So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the vault “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.
9 And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.” And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground “land,” and the gathered waters he called “seas.” And God saw that it was good.
11 Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.” And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day."
In so much as that beyond this point of "DUALITY"
it was experienced "CREATION"
so from this point onward we are engaging "TIME"
This path therefore engaging another direction
to be met accordingly
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why is the lion at giza gazing upwards
why do i get the words harvest and ascension
together
oh well ::)
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I'll put some quotes from someone who is not a christian, but gets knowledge from personal experience and seeing.
About all this fuss around homosexuality and peoples need for everyhting to be equal:
"It is a sign of time that humanity is becoming ripe to choose whether it is upwards or downwards. When according to Bible, Christ comes back, then humans have made a decision about their direction. And it has become clear who deserves more and who doesn't".
"It is a sign of time that humanity and humans in it are ready enough to start to choose whether to become free towards Spiritdarkness or Spiritlight, firstly for themselves, then for the society and then for the humanity. Darkness is a situation where people don't see what is black and what is white, what is clean and what is dirty, what is of the body and what is of the Soul, what is of desire and what is of love, what is reality and what is the interpretation of reality, what is right and what is wrong, and that people don't see where they are moving towards, even if it is done for the purpose of diminishing the number of humans. Humanity has enough explanations for both choices. But also the means for a global fire flood, instead of the water flood of Noa time".
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It looks as if Taimi is increasingly referring to a sister of a man I mentioned earlier - a man known as Taotleja ("one who intends"/"one who works with intent")
His sister is apparently active at this forum http://seesama.s2.bizhat.com/seesama.html under the nickname vaatleja ("observer"). She is the one who's very much into Jesus-Bible-Christianity.
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It looks as if Taimi is increasingly referring to a sister of a man I mentioned earlier - a man known as Taotleja ("one who intends"/"one who works with intent")
His sister is apparently active at this forum http://seesama.s2.bizhat.com/seesama.html under the nickname vaatleja ("observer"). She is the one who's very much into Jesus-Bible-Christianity.
Ultimately the post is stuck in dual thinking, which I think many of us here have evolved past. "Right or wrong, black and white, good and evil" and so forth. The duality created, but really its like this:
(http://chriscorrigan.com/parkinglot/wp-content/uploads/2006/10/tao.jpg)
There is always a little dot 'here' and dot 'there' in the symbol, showing the connectedness, and showing in truth, there is no such thing as 'black and white,' good and evil, etc. It is an illusion created by ego, which creates the us/them mentality I have been speaking of.
Yin Yang illustrated from the Tao Te Ching [2]
When people see things as beautiful,
ugliness is created.
When people see things as good,
evil is created.
Being and non-being produce each other.
Difficult and easy complement each other.
Long and short define each other.
High and low oppose each other.
Fore and aft follow each other.
This separation is illusory. Therefore this person being declared a 'seer' who is 'seeing' in black and white, and predicting gloom and doom, does not see. Has not groked what the symbol means, or understands it. Ultimately, one will remain without hope, if they do not meditate, or see in their own true nature. By seeing in one's true nature, this can be overcome. By however clinging to ego, and the illusion it creates, by dividing and subdividing continually, that person is going to be beyond hope.
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From CC, from an interview:
"What he did was teach me that there's much more to the world than we usually acknowledge -- that our normal expectations about reality are created by social consensus, which is itself a trick. We're taught to see and understand the world through a socialization process that, when working correctly, convinces us that the interpretations we agree upon define the limits of the real world. Don Juan interrupted this process in my life by demonstrating that we have the capacity to enter into other worlds that are constant and independent of our highly conditioned awareness. Sorcery involves reprogramming our capacities to perceive realms as real, unique, absolute, and engulfing as our daily so-called mundane world."
In the Bible it says sorcery is a sin. and this is what happens to them:
Revelation 22:
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
~~~~
Ultimately you're going to need to figure out what path you're on and commit to it.
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An Atheist's Favourite Bible Verses
(All quotes from Revised Standard Version)
Hats off to Eve, the heroic Biblical character who stood up to God and dared to reach for wisdom, truth, beauty, and good food; and to the serpent, who had the guts to tell the truth about God's lies, arrogance, injustice, and tyranny.
Genesis 3:2-6
And the woman said to the serpent, "We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden; but God said, "You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.'" But the serpent said to the woman, "You will not die. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate; and she also gave some to her husband, and he ate.
And a kick in the butt to Adam, that sniveling, finger-pointing, pusillanimous, brain-dead excuse for a husband.
Genesis 3:12
The man said, "The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me fruit of the tree, and I ate."
Excerpt from the forbidden book, avariciously read by 8-year old Christians everywhere, by flashlight. They were puzzled then and they're puzzled now.
Song of Solomon 7:1-9
How graceful are your feet in sandals, O queenly maiden! Your rounded thighs are like jewels, the work of a master hand. Your navel is a rounded bowl that never lacks mixed wine. Your belly is a heap of wheat, encircled with lilies. Your two breasts are like two fawns, twins of a gazelle. Your neck is like an ivory tower. Your eyes are pools in Heshbon, by the gate of Bathrabbim. Your nose is like a tower of Lebanon, overlooking Damascus. Your head crowns you like Carmel, and your flowing locks are like purple; a king is held captive in the tresses.
God forces people to believe in lies and then condemns them for it.
2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
Therefore God sends upon them a strong delusion, to make them believe what is false, so that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
The criminal death of a fetus is a misdemeanor, not murder.
Exodus 21:22-25
When men strive together, and hurt a woman with child, so that there is a miscarriage, and yet no harm follows, the one who hurt her shall be fined, according as the woman's husband shall lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. If any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.
The Bible is pro-choice -- it says it is better to be aborted in the womb than to live an unhappy or wicked life.
Jeremiah 20:14-18
Cursed be the day I was born! the day when my mother bore me, let it not be blessed! Cursed be the man who brought the news to my father, "A son is born to you," making him very glad. Let that man be like the cities which the Lord overthrew without pity; let him hear a cry in the morning and an alarm at noon, because he did not kill me in the womb; so my mother would have been my grave, and her womb for ever great.. Why did I come forth from the womb to see toil and sorrow, and spend my days in shame?
Job 3:16-19
Or why was I not as a hidden untimely birth, as infants that never see the light? There the wicked cease from troubling, and there the weary are at rest. There the prisoners are at ease together; they hear not the voice of the taskmaster. The small and the great are there, and the slave is free from his master.
Ecclesiastes 6:3-5
If a man begets a hundred children, and lives many years, so that the days of his years are many, but he does not enjoy life's good things, and also has no burial, I say that an untimely birth is better off than he. For it comes into vanity and goes into darkness, and in darkness its name is covered; moreover it has not seen the sun or known anything; yet it finds rest rather than he.
A couple of examples of the Old Testament's respect for women.
Judges 19:22-29
As they were making their hearts merry, behold, the men of the city, base fellows, beset the house round about, beating on the door; and they said to the old man, the master of the house, "Bring out the man who came into your house, that we may know him." And the man, the master of the house, went out to them and said to them, "No, my brethren, do not act so wickedly; seeing that this man has come into my house, do not do this vile thing. Behold, here are my virgin daughter and his concubine; let me bring them out now. Ravish them and do with them what seems good to you; but against this man do not do so vile a thing." But the men would not listen to him. So the man seized his concubine, and put her out to them; and they knew her, and abused her all night until the morning. And as the dawn began to break, they let her go. And as morning appeared, the woman came and fell down at the door of the man's house where her master was, till it was light. And her master rose up in the morning, and when he opened the doors of the house and went out to go on his way, behold, there was his concubine lying at the door of the house, with her hands on the threshold. He said to her, "Get up, let us be going." But there was no answer. Then he put her upon the ass; and the man rose up and went away to his home. And when he entered his house, he took a knife, and laying hold of his concubine, he divided her, limb by limb, into twelve pieces, and sent her throughout all the territory of Israel.
Genesis 19:4-8
But before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both young and old, all the people to the last man, surrounded the house; and they called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us, that we may know them." Lot went out of the door to the men, shut the door after him, and said, "I beg you, my brothers, do not act so wickedly. Behold, I have two daughters who have not known man; let me bring them out to you, and do to them as you please; only do nothing to these men, for they have come under the shelter of my roof."
The adultery test---a God-sanctioned recourse for any suspicious husband:
Numbers 5:17, 24-28
The priest shall take holy water in an earthen vessel, and take some of the dust that is on the floor of the tabernacle and put in into the water. … And he shall make the woman drink the water of bitterness that brings the curse, and the water that brings the curse shall enter into her and cause bitter pain. … If she has acted unfaithfully against her husband, … her body shall swell, and her thigh shall fall away, and the woman shall become an execration among her people. But if the woman has not defiled herself and is clean, then she shall be free and shall conceive children.
Meek and mild Jesus, the harbinger of love, mercy, and turning the other cheek.
Matthew 10:34-35
"Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man's foes will be those of his own household."
Matthew 13:49-50
"So it will be at the close of the age. The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous, and throw them into the furnace of fire; there men will weep and gnash their teeth."
Matthew 23:33
"You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?"
A few of God's forgotten commandments.
Exodus 21, 22, and 23
[21:2] "... When you buy a Hebrew slave, he shall serve six years, and in the seventh he shall go out free, for nothing."
[21:7-8] "When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do."
[21:26-27] "When a man strikes the eye of his slave, male or female, and destroys it, he shall let the slave go free for the eye's sake. If he knocks out the tooth of his slave, male or female, he shall let the slave go free for the tooth's sake."
[22:18, KJV] "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."
[22:19] "Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death."
[22:20] "He that sacrificeth unto any god save unto the Lord only, he shall be utterly destroyed."
[22:29] ... "The first-born of your sons you shall give to me. You shall do likewise with your oxen and with your sheep: seven days it shall be with its dam; on the eighth day you shall give it to me."
[23:19] ... "You shall not boil a kid in its mother's milk."
After committing genocide against the Midianites, Moses parcels out the booty.
Numbers 31:17, 40
[Verse 17, Moses says:] "Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying with him. But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."
[Verse 40:] The persons [women who had not known man by lying with him] were sixteen thousand, of which the Lord's tribute was thirty-two persons.
God's enthusiastic endorsement of child abuse.
Proverbs 23:13-14
Do not withhold discipline from a child. If you beat him with a rod, he will not die. If you beat him with the rod, you will save his life from Sheol.
Deuteronomy 21:18-21
If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father; or the voice of his mother, and, though they chastise him, will not give heed to them, then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gate of the place where he lives, and they shall say to the elders of his city, "This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard." Then all the men of the city shall stone him to death with stones; so you shall purge the evil from your midst; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
A kernel of wisdom and realism, amidst the stupidity and wishful thinking.
Ecclesiastes 3:19-20
For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. All go to one place, all are from the dust, and all turn to dust again.
The greatest story ever told. It's got it all--heroism, lost innocence, jealousy, betrayal, intrigue, romance, conflict and suspense, humble beginnings, and a glorious end, all tied together by the abiding love between a father and his son. It's the story of Joseph, and reading it still gives me goose bumps.
Genesis 45:1-3
Then Joseph could not control himself before all those who stood by him; and he cried, "Make every one go out from me." So no one stayed with him when Joseph made himself known to his brothers. And he wept aloud, so that the Egyptians heard it, and the household of Pharaoh heard it. And Joseph said to his brothers, "I am Joseph; is my father still alive?"
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God made the two great lights, the greater light to govern the day, and the lesser light to govern the night; He made the stars also.
Genesis 1.16
If a man sells his daughter as a female slave, she is not to go free as the male slaves do.
Exodus 21.7
Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death
Exodus 22.19
Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.
Exodus 35.2
For thou art a holy people unto Jehovah thy God, and Jehovah hath chosen thee to be a people for his own possession, above all peoples that are upon the face of the earth.
Deuteronomy 14:2
Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee
Genesis 3:16
For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.
1 Corinthian 11:8-9
And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head -- it is just as though her head were shaved. If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head. A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man.
1 Corinthian 11:5-7
I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.
1 Timothy 2:12
Let the women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but let them be in subjection, as also saith the law.
And if they would learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home: for it is shameful for a woman to speak in the church.
1 Corinthians 14:34-35
Its entrails, however, and its legs he shall wash with water. And the priest shall offer up in smoke all of it on the altar for a burnt offering, an offering by fire of a soothing aroma to the LORD. (the creator of the universe likes the smell of burning goat meat).
Leviticus 1.9
You shall not eat of their flesh nor touch their carcasses; they are unclean to you
Leviticus 11.8
But whatever is in the seas and in the rivers that does not have fins and scales among all the teeming life of the water, and among all the living creatures that are in the water, they are detestable things to you
Leviticus 11.10
When a woman has a discharge, if her discharge in her body is blood, she shall continue in her menstrual impurity for seven days; and whoever touches her shall be unclean until evening.
Leviticus 15.19-24
Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
Leviticus 18.22
And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
Leviticus 18.32
You are to keep My statutes. You shall not breed together two kinds of your cattle; you shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed, nor wear a garment upon you of two kinds of material mixed together
Leviticus 19.19
You shall not round off the side-growth of your heads nor harm the edges of your beard
Leviticus 19.27
And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them
Leviticus 20:13
Speak to Aaron, saying, 'No man of your offspring throughout their generations who has a defect shall approach to offer the food of his God. For no one who has a defect shall approach: a blind man, or a lame man, or he who has a disfigured face, or any deformed limb, or a man who has a broken foot or broken hand, or a hunchback or a dwarf, or one who has a defect in his eye or eczema or scabs or crushed testicles
Leviticus 21.17-20
As for your male and female slaves whom you may have-- you may acquire male and female slaves from the pagan nations that are around you.
Leviticus 25-44
Servants, be submissive to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and gentle, but also to those who are unreasonable.
Peter 2.18
You shall not make any cuts in your body for the dead nor make any tattoo marks on yourselves: I am the LORD.
Leviticus 19:28
But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me (Jesus talking)
Luke 19:27
And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.
Luke 12:10, Mark 3:29
Anyone who blasphemes the name of the LORD must be put to death. The entire assembly must stone him.
Leviticus 24:16
He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues; they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.
Mark 16:18
If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, Let us go and worship other gods (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again.
Deuteronomy 13:6-11
Happy shall he be, that takes and dashes your little ones against the stones.
Psalms 137:9
Slaughter old men, young men and maidens, women and children, but do not touch anyone who has the mark. Begin at my sanctuary." So they began with the elders who were in front of the temple.
Ezekiel 9:6
If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.
Deuteronomy 22:28-29
And Jacob took him rods of green poplar, and of the hazel and chesnut tree; and pilled white strakes in them, and made the white appear which was in the rods. And he set the rods which he had pilled before the flocks in the gutters in the watering troughs when the flocks came to drink, that they should conceive when they came to drink. And the flocks conceived before the rods, and brought forth cattle ringstraked, speckled, and spotted.
Genesis 30:37-39
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out demons; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Mark 16:17-18
If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
Matthew 17:20
The Earth Is Flat
And when the thousand years are finished, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, and shall come forth to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to the war: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Revel 20:8
And he will set up an ensign for the nations, and will assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth
Isaiah 11:12
Again, the devil taketh him unto an exceeding high mountain, and showeth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
Matthew 4:8
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i will tell you the reason when the two witnesses stand up
that christ returns and "kingdom is come"
because an evolutionary feat applied by the "living " god
is completed
the starry sky has emobodied the awareness fully
through the living of that truth which is the lighted way upon the path
in the "twinkling of an eye"
awareness is bestowed upon that traveller
having maintained this "faith" and lived
"faithfully" his/ her truth as is written in the stars
imagine a solar system spinning and its mirror image within the divine
at one point in "time"
its solar disc passes upon the dark rift
and as it does
the two realities which are actually immense light possibility potentials
merge
at this point this "double"
engages itself
at this point
we have what lord pacau "present" speaks of
and "the little ones are showered with gifts from the father "
dreaming literally merged with reality for that time
that allowance of light giving birth to
a more complete human in that their own bands have aligned
as is written also in the sky
this "birth "
of the two witnesses "actual beings also
"
having been from the "original tree and seed" through "spirit"
then engage further of better put " entire " and also
for a time non dual bands in the space of individual also living
and operate from within that place
that completion is as was christ s embodiment
and what is bound in " heaven" is upon the earth and what is upon the earth is
bound in "heaven "
"written"
it is important to live your truth fully yes :)
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From CC, from an interview:
"What he did was teach me that there's much more to the world than we usually acknowledge -- that our normal expectations about reality are created by social consensus, which is itself a trick. We're taught to see and understand the world through a socialization process that, when working correctly, convinces us that the interpretations we agree upon define the limits of the real world.
Don Juan interrupted this process in my life by demonstrating that we have the capacity to enter into other worlds that are constant and independent of our highly conditioned awareness
Right, Don Juan and Don Genaro provide to Carlos "the new lens" that makes his limited beliefs (demons) to dissolve into thin air.
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Yet you choose what to do and what do not to do in everyday life. Your conscience tells you to not kill for an example. So how is not killing equal to killing?
Anyway, you can just consider this second coming as a probaility, maybe. Why not? And in the light of this probablity, it is a chance to be impeccable and choose wisely what ever we intend, think and do.
This separation is illusory. Therefore this person being declared a 'seer' who is 'seeing' in black and white, and predicting gloom and doom, does not see. Has not groked what the symbol means, or understands it. Ultimately, one will remain without hope, if they do not meditate, or see in their own true nature. By seeing in one's true nature, this can be overcome. By however clinging to ego, and the illusion it creates, by dividing and subdividing continually, that person is going to be beyond hope.
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Yet you choose what to do and what do not to do in everyday life. Your conscience tells you to not kill for an example. So how is not killing right and killing wrong?
Is killing wrong?
Personally I love eating chicken, and if I can figure out how to raise them next summer I will. If we decide we might eat them instead of just there eggs, I am totally okay with being the one to kill them. Will be sad to take a life, but will also be curious about what it is like to take a life. Further I suspect it will result in a deeper appreciation of life.
Also killing other animals as a result of hunting for food, may for various reasons have lead to early man developing an understanding of the afterlife, and a belief in a higher power. Perhaps it even helped us develop greater empathy, and thhe ability to look beyond our limited perspectives... But i can elaborate on my views when i have more time. For now, when you say killing is wrong, I wonder if perhaps you could elaborate?
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How about killing another human without a real need for it?
Also, if someone is interested of spiritual evolution, there are definetly things and actions he/she would consider right or wrong to be able to evolve.
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How about killing another human without a real need for it?
In my teens I was very good with the rifle, I won, or at least got some awards fo my skill to aim and keep the rifle steady. And I enjoyed to improve my skills with the rifles. Then when I should do my military service (one year) I refused because I had become a pacifist.
Not only because War can be wrong, but also because I knew that if there ever was a sharp situation, I would hit the target, and eventually kill a man.
For that decision, to not join the Army, I had to go to jail.
However, some more ideas about this thing with war (and heroism) has been present before in the spiritual history. For instance: What is our duty?
Dharma and heroism[edit]
[My underlining]
The Bhagavad Gita is set in the narrative frame of the Mahabharata, which values heroism, "energy, dedication and self-sacrifice",[1] as the dharma, "holy duty"[41] of the Ksatriya (warrior).[41][1][42] In the Bhagavad Gita, Arjuna is "exhorted by his charioteer, Kṛiṣhṇa, among others, to stop hesitating and fulfill his Kṣatriya (warrior) duty as a warrior and kill."[1]
According to Malinar, a central point in the dispute between the two parties in the Mahabharata is the question how to define "the law of heroism".[43][note 4] Malinar gives a description of the dharma of a Ksatriya (warrior) based on the Udyogaparvan, the fifth book of the Mahabharata:
This duty consists first of all in standing one's ground and fighting for status. The main duty of a warrior is never to submit to anybody. A warrior must resist any impulse to self-preservation that would make him avoid a fight. In brief, he ought to be a man (puruso bhava; cf. 5.157.6; 13;15). Some of the most vigorous formulations of what called the "heart" or the "essence" of heroism (ksatrahrdaya) come from the ladies of the family. They bare shown most unforgiving with regard to the humiliations they have gone through, the loss of their status and honour, not to speak of the shame of having a weak man in the house, whether husband, son or brother.[2][note 5]
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I suppose you felt it was a right thing to do.
I meant that every person inside himself or herself must have some understanding of right and wrong.
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there are many gray areas and nothing is as simple as it seems.
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The inner knowing will know, if a person asks himself honestly.
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Right, Don Juan and Don Genaro provide to Carlos "the new lens" that makes his limited beliefs (demons) to dissolve into thin air.
Yep! :)
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The inner knowing will know, if a person asks himself honestly.
Ah, appropriate here too!
O how they cling and wrangle, some who claim
For preacher and monk the honored name!
For, quarreling, each to his view they cling.
Such folk see only one side of a thing. ~Buddha
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To love our neighbor as ourselves is such a truth for regulating human society, that by that alone one might determine all the cases in social morality.
John Locke
There is both an energetic reason why this is so, and a rational reason why. Again though, if you live a life of love, then you become lighter, and more energized.
I have short time tonight, as I must go share love with my daughter. Still I would like to see if we can engage in a more productive discussion Taimyr. To do so it would help if we can mark off some common ground. Would you be able to agree with the above statement about love? Or the Biblical equivalent:
…13For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." 15But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.
If you can agree with that, then perhaps we can move on to define what exactly is meant by the word love, and from there define morality. Perhaps after we will all even find we agree more than we now think.
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I wouldn't say it's my love for humans that makes me do what I do or don't do. It's rather my love for truth and justice. For an example I try not to kill bugs and plants, not because I love them, but because I respect their life, the fact that they are alive.
And I'm not alking about only of the right and wrong towards other people, but also generally in ones own life and inner world.
Everyone should know what conscience is, so that's basically the thing that determines what is right and wrong (not some mystical and distorted seeing that is different for eveyone).
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I suppose you felt it was a right thing to do.
I meant that every person inside himself or herself must have some understanding of right and wrong.
That decision I made in 1974 was Right for me, it was in alignment with Me then.
I could not expect anyone else to do that decision. So joining the Army for them (the others) was Right.
Please notice this paradox, I do (or did) what is Right, and the others that do the opposite does the Right thing too!
In 1974 the Cold War was present, to join the Army then was a bit sharper than today. A Russia attack is something we do not have to bother about today to the same degree as in the mid 1970's , even if Putin has a tough attitude.
That my decision to go to prison instead of doing my "Duty" was heavy for my family should perhaps be mentioned too. My Grandfather was a Major General during World War II. Having the responsibility of the Boden Fortress in the highest North of Seden.
Even my father had a career within the Army ending up as a Major in the reserve. He was very annoyed with my decision to refuse the duty. In a second I had become the black sheep of the family.
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Big decision all right. Severed from the family and social morality in one fell swoop. I expect you suffered qite a bit, and most likely laid the foundation for your strength today.
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For that decision, to not join the Army, I had to go to jail.
Jahn, for how long?
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For an example I try not to kill bugs and plants, not because I love them, but because I respect their life, the fact that they are alive.
And I'm not alking about only of the right and wrong towards other people, but also generally in ones own life and inner world.
I almost lost track of this thread.
Okay, would you say that you respect the life of a bug, because you are also alive? That is you know what it means to be alive, and respect your own life. So it is only right you respect their life?
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What do you mean?
So it is only right you respect their life?
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What do you mean?
You respect the bugs life, because you're both, alive.
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Because physical life is like an oportunity for evolving, at least for me. So I wouldn't want to end a life, if it can continue. Of course I don't know anything about bug evolution for an example, but still, let them be (if possible).
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Because physical life is like an oportunity for evolving, at least for me. So I wouldn't want to end a life, if it can continue. Of course I don't know anything about bug evolution for an example, but still, let them be (if possible).
So you agree that it is generally good to do unto others as you would have them do to you?
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I suppose it can be good to treat others as you want them to treat you, but for me it's is not that important, I mean I don't have much expectations about how people should treat me.
Why is this idea of treating others the way you want to be treated, important? If I do it, I do it completely automatically. I don't find it a big deal.
So you agree that it is generally good to do unto others as you would have them do to you?
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You respect the bugs life, because you're both, alive.
Unfortunately some people do a distinction between humans and animals, placing us above the animals.
My son went to Ethiopia and catched this statement in a discussion near him.
A guy said that he did not belive in God/Allah to the others, which made someone reply upset:
- But then you are like an animal.
This is of course a very stupid idea. Animals where on this planet before us and we can be happy that they give us so much in return. We are the bastards compared to the animals. Let us turn it the other way and place the animals above us, not equal, but instead the keepers of our true nature on earth.
Don Juan explained to Carlos that Carlos' Nagual animal was the fox. The Fox is the earth bound animal of the same energy and aspect, as the Raven.
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I suppose it can be good to treat others as you want them to treat you, but for me it's is not that important, I mean I don't have much expectations about how people should treat me.
Why is this idea of treating others the way you want to be treated, important? If I do it, I do it completely automatically. I don't find it a big deal.
It is a big deal.
"Do unto others ...."
Is a universal (spiritual) rule, also mentioned by Jesus (to make the statement even more valid ;D )
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I meant why would he ask me about that, it's kind of selfevident.
It is a big deal.
"Do unto others ...."
Is a universal (spiritual) rule, also mentioned by Jesus (to make the statement even more valid ;D )
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I suppose it can be good to treat others as you want them to treat you, but for me it's is not that important, I mean I don't have much expectations about how people should treat me.
Why is this idea of treating others the way you want to be treated, important? If I do it, I do it completely automatically. I don't find it a big deal.
To reply to this one, and your last one about why I would ask...
Often it helps to get an initial agreement before proceeding to throw a whole bunch of words at the other person.
The reason I asked my question is that we were discussing what it means to be moral. If we can agree on this moral principle I believe I can show how most of morality relates to this one principle. I can even take it a step further, to relate it to Gurdjieff's concept of "external considering".
Remember Jahn said...Jahn correct me if I'm wrong. That there is no such thing as right and wrong. That it is all actually about energy. We could simplify that as qualities of lightness or heaviness. I can then simplify it all in terms of energy. All this is much easier than it sounds.
I would add that some people are 'moralizers'. These people are a highly serious type. Often lacking a healthy sense of humor, and an ability to have fun. Their goal is to be better than others, their morality is to bolster their own self-importance.
Back to the issue at hand.
You don't care what others do to you?
Do you care how you treat yourself?
Do you care how you treat others?
If you can answer yes to both of those would it then follow that you agree it is good to:
Treat others as you would want to treat yourself?
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Taimi i do the same thing. I avoid killing bugs if possible. They are life to, and I see it pointless to kill them. This doesnt mean I wont. Like if a black widow got in my house, its her or me. But I will avoid it if possible. I see human life more valuable, that may not be nice but lets face it, as Im human I value humans more, but they still have significance so I avoid killing them if i can.
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The way people treat me is laregly affected by how I see things and how I appear to others. It's not something outside of me. For an example I have a friend who always complains and talks about what someone did and so on. When I think about these things, I am like wow, I wouldn't even pay attention to these things which she takes personally. I don't find a lot of things that irritate me, so I appear realxed and easy going which makes others around also easy going. I don't think about it if it's right or wrong, it just makes life more easy and smooth.
I treat myself the way I find useful, if that means caring, then ok, caring it is :) I wouldn't say I really care about others, I just let them be. Or I behave the way that I find fitting in a situation, which doesn't mean I deeply care about them or want them to behave same way with me.
Do I care how people treat me? From one perspective yes, because it makes life smoother if they treat me well. From another perspective I don't, because it doesn't really matter, it's not important what other people do and in a spiritual sense there are lots of other things besides my realtions to other humans.
Now, may I ask, is it important to you how others treat you and why?
Do you find it important to treat others the way you want them to treat you, and why?
You don't care what others do to you?
Do you care how you treat yourself?
Do you care how you treat others?
If you can answer yes to both of those would it then follow that you agree it is good to:
Treat others as you would want to treat yourself?
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I treat myself the way I find useful, if that means caring, then ok, caring it is :) I wouldn't say I really care about others, I just let them be. Or I behave the way that I find fitting in a situation, which doesn't mean I deeply care about them or want them to behave same way with me.
Now, may I ask, is it important to you how others treat you and why?
Do you find it important to treat others the way you want them to treat you, and why?
I wasn't asking if you 'care' about others, as in feel something in the empathy, sympathy, or pity sense. I was asking if it 'matters' to you, if it is 'important' to you how you treat yourself, and others.
By you saying that you treat yourself and others in whatever way is most useful, you are agreeing with me. You are saying that it is important to you that you behave a certain way toward yourself, and others.
To answer your question toward me. I do find it important how others treat me. I try to not take offence to the way others treat me, because that offence wouldn't me useful. Still I try to craft the way I interact with others, to encourage others to not make my life difficult.
So yes I care, it matters, or is important to me how I treat others, and how they treat me, because I do not want my life to be difficult when that challenge isn't useful to me.
Are we then in agreement on this one point?
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Yes, it does appear that we agree on this.
So yes I care, it matters, or is important to me how I treat others, and how they treat me, because I do not want my life to be difficult when that challenge isn't useful to me.
Are we then in agreement on this one point?
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Yes, it does appear that we agree on this.
Jesus Christ!
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Now, what's the big deal? You also agree with us? ::)
Jesus Christ!
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Remember Jahn said...Jahn correct me if I'm wrong. That there is no such thing as right and wrong. That it is all actually about energy. We could simplify that as qualities of lightness or heaviness. I can then simplify it all in terms of energy. All this is much easier than it sounds.
You are right, in the Universe there is no such things as right and wrong, it is all about heavy and light energy.
However, when we want to maintain a society we apply penalty to what we feel is wrong. Rape, assault and murder we find "wrong" so there is penalty and dislike for such things.
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Lets just say then that in the universe there are choices that lift our energy and choices that don't, or even lower it. For me choosing the upward direction is right and going backwards or downwards is wrong.
You are right, in the Universe there is no such things as right and wrong, it is all about heavy and light energy.
However, when we want to maintain a society we apply penalty to what we feel is wrong. Rape, assault and murder we find "wrong" so there is penalty and dislike for such things.
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Yes, it does appear that we agree on this.
Though this feels almost like pulling teeth I'm going to seek one last clarification.
You would want to treat someone in a way that is equivalant to how you would treat yourself?
You also stated that certain choices lift your energy, and certain choices don't. Could you provide an example of a few different choices that uplift, and a few that don't?
For example, for me:
It was uplifting for me to leave my home at 18.
It is uplifting for me to meditate.
It is uplifting for me to take a break from meditating.
It is uplifting to spend time with my wife, and daughter.
It is not uplifting for me to over eat.
It is not uplifting for me to take out my stress on others.
It is uplifting to experience stress, and there are times when it is not uplifting to be stressed.
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I don't know, why do you keep asking this? :) I don't treat anyone or want to treat anyone in any specific way. I believe the answer would be no, really doesn't matter to me to treat someone the way I want to treat myself. People can mind their own business and do what ever they want. I just keep my relations light and nonproblematic. Also I don't treat myself in any specific way, I just do what I want and try to inscrease my awareness. What do you mean by "treating yourself" anyway?
Uplifting choices, hmm. It would be something similar to what you described. But not only actions, also thoughts. Sometimes the difficult part is actually to realise that I am choosing something almost in every moment. Most important choices are about the inner direction and realising when something is hindering or indulgent.
Though this feels almost like pulling teeth I'm going to seek one last clarification.
You would want to treat someone in a way that is equivalant to how you would treat yourself?
You also stated that certain choices lift your energy, and certain choices don't. Could you provide an example of a few different choices that uplift, and a few that don't?
For example, for me:
It was uplifting for me to leave my home at 18.
It is uplifting for me to meditate.
It is uplifting for me to take a break from meditating.
It is uplifting to spend time with my wife, and daughter.
It is not uplifting for me to over eat.
It is not uplifting for me to take out my stress on others.
It is uplifting to experience stress, and there are times when it is not uplifting to be stressed.
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I don't know, why do you keep asking this? :) I don't treat anyone or want to treat anyone in any specific way. I believe the answer would be no, really doesn't matter to me to treat someone the way I want to treat myself. People can mind their own business and do what ever they want. I just keep my relations light and nonproblematic. Also I don't treat myself in any specific way, I just do what I want and try to inscrease my awareness. What do you mean by "treating yourself" anyway?
Uplifting choices, hmm. It would be something similar to what you described. But not only actions, also thoughts. Sometimes the difficult part is actually to realise that I am choosing something almost in every moment. Most important choices are about the inner direction and realising when something is hindering or indulgent.
Okay, it seems this method isn't working as well as I had hoped. Its fascinating how easily misunderstanding can occur. If I had a lot more time I think we could do it, but I'll just sum it all up.
You treat yourself a certain way by increasing your awareness, is what you said. The question could then be phrased as would you do things to others that might make it harder for them to increase their awareness? For instance deliberately deceiving them for your own selfish gain? You said you try not to do anything that makes your own life, or the life of others more difficult. This is the same principle in different wording.
What I'm looking for is an acknowledgement of the importance of the ethic of reciprocity. This ethic is pretty universal. It has been formulated in many ways.
In India: "Hence, (keeping these in mind), by self-control and by making dharma (right conduct) your main focus, treat others as you treat yourself."
Buddhism:
Comparing oneself to others in such terms as "Just as I am so are they, just as they are so am I," he should neither kill nor cause others to kill.
—Sutta Nipata 705
One who, while himself seeking happiness, oppresses with violence other beings who also desire happiness, will not attain happiness hereafter.
—Dhammapada 10. Violence
Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful.
—Udanavarga 5:18
Putting oneself in the place of another, one should not kill nor cause another to kill.[48]
Scientology:
Thus today we have two golden rules for happiness: 1. Be able to experience anything; and 2. Cause only those things which others are able to experience easily.
—Scientology: A New Slant on Life, Two Rules for Happy Living
The trick is not to treat others as if they are the same as you. The trick is to treat them as different from you, but equal. To see how you and all others are equal you center yourself, from this place you'll remember your own maximum significance. You'll see through the surface. Its from this place you can see what you need, and see what the Other needs.
The Other (capital 'O'), as I am using it here, is any being outside of you, that is foreign to you. Once you see to their essence they are no long quite as Other as they were. Anytime we say that someone is different and therefor should be treated as 'less than', then we dehumanize them. Dehumanization, which for simplicity sake we will say is basically the same as objectification, is how we create the Other. There is an inherent difficulty in seeing past our own limited self-centered experience, such that any being outside of me is almost always a little foreign.
To be moral is not to live in isolation, it implies an interaction between more than one being. I must be most fully my own highest significance, while using identification to put myself into the place of the other being then I under-stand them.
Now when we talk about right and wrong, or up and down, light and heavy. We presuppose the ability to choose. This is fine when we are sitting by ourselves in a quite room. When undisturbed much seems possible, but then we go out somewhere. Someone yells at you, and you get angry, you go home, and unintentionally you take out your anger on others.
On the other hand. You said you do what increases awareness. If you really are aware of being aware, then you might also remember that others are not aware. If they wanted to be they would have to struggle to be aware just as you. You and the Other are not so different. Now you can enter into the Other's position, when you under-stand where they are coming from it is possible to not take their actions personally. It is now possible to make a deliberate choice. The choice to remain internally indifferent.
I say internally indifferent, because what if you have to appear angry? I have had situations where someone just would not listen until they saw me angry. Perhaps they were of the confrontational sort, maybe they didn't think I took them seriously until they saw strong emotion, or perhaps they needed to be shocked out of what ever they were going through. In other situations I have had to put on a smile to sell a product, or any number of other roles that the stage of human interaction requires.
Still I want to remain internally free of this role playing. Unless I'm using the role to change something internal. The inner moves freely while the outer must align to whatever the situation requires. If the inner can move freely it is free to align to something of real substance, the Spirit. One tool to aid us in separating the inner world from the outer is inner silence. Inner silence will bring temporary stillness to the inner world, eventually the external world will no longer dictate the conditions of your inner life.
Do you see it now, how the Golden Rule can only be properly implemented with Gurdjieff's external considering, and how all this gives us the ability to be moral?
The proper practice of external considering sets up the appropriate conditions for a person to enter the Flow. That is it frees up your internal energy, and minimizes unnecessary external challenges. It minimizes the tendency to be self absorbed. It requires being intensely in the moment. The ability to be mindful of what your doing. All these things are the result of techniques that improve our energetic condition, and as a result of the improved energetic condition we are more moral people.
Yes being more moral behaviorally can improve our internal energetic condition to some degree, but often such change doesn't last. The reason is your inner energetic condition dictates what happens on the outside. If you only try to change the outer choices to change the inner, then you wont get any where fast. It is much easier to change the inside.
Morality is a word we apply to describe certain types of behavior. Yet morality is really just an energetic condition. I think the message here is that we don't need to think in terms of morality, which is often very relativistic. That is what is right or wrong varies from situation to situation, and person to person. We are all equal, but different. On the other hand, improve your own personal energy, change yourself, and you will be more moral.
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I don't have the energy to give you a detailed description of how these things work for me :)
Lets just say that basically I agree with you :)
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People can mind their own business and do what ever they want.
Like marry the same sex, I suppose.
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Well... they can do what ever they want, but that doesn't mean I am blind about humanity's choices.
Like marry the same sex, I suppose.
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There is more to this that I didn't delve into.
Everything in life appears in the form of duality. Everything can be symbolically represented by masculinity, and femininity. Even the most masculine contains femininity, and the dividing lines are never clearly drawn. Its a lot of semantics. The world of energy is beyond this symbolism, and semantics. Entering the world of energy, and manifesting that energy into the world of form is, from my perspective of highest moral importance. Everything else morally speaking falls into place from this position.
Yet to enter the world of energy the dividing line between you and I must melt away. The line that divides garden from me. The mental line that makes me think of the garden as mine, instead of me belonging to the garden. To do so we leave the head, and open the heart. We feel our world from a place of silence.
The principle of reciprocity, or the golden rule that we were discussing, is a tool to help melt the dividing line between you, and I. All truly ethical systems could be thought of as tools to help melt that dividing line between you, and I. Between subject who is perceiving, and the Other-object that is being perceived. The way is to see the you in them. If you are able to recognize a particular quality in them, perhaps it is in part because of that quality in you. Then you can not stop there. You see ugliness, or immorality in someone, or in a group, you have to look for that in yourself. You have to shift your perception to see yourself as ugly, and accept that perception of yourself as equally true to any other perception of yourself.
Don't stop with a one sided internal paradigm. That is once you see yourself as ugly, you have to remember the principle of duality that there is always beauty in ugliness. Find the beauty in your own ugliness. Keep doing this with every quality until you no longer care about the difference between different qualities. Till right and wrong doesn't matter anymore, as you can see the right in the wrong, and that it all equals out.
Then something interesting is found.
Every-thing is equal.
Something is valuable by comparison and contra-position. This thing is a certain degree of value, because something else has been deemed of less value. I derive my meaning of beauty in part by its comparison to what I have deemed to be ugly.
If everything is equal then no-thing matters.
If value is determined by saying that something is more than something that is less, but in actuality no such fixed value differences exists. That is, what is of one value this moment, is a different value in another moment...and time itself isn't of fixed, or linear orientation, than we can not objectively speaking designate a fixed value. Then in the big picture every value equals out, but that also means that no real values exist at all.
I.e. morality isn't real.
Oh, crap I've contradicted a previous statement!
I stated that living from the world of energy was of the highest moral importance. Wait, no contradiction at all. Actually if every-thing is objectively speaking of zero value. That is every material, every object, every form is of zero value, then what actually matters is the world that isn't composed of 'things'.
If every-thing matters equally, then no-thing matters.
Is this what is meant by living is if we are already dead? Is the attainment of this when the inner and outer shells of our being separate, and we have achieved substantial depth of presence? If nothing is of value it is as if we are dead, but then if we have done our due diligence we see this is only the superficial layer of reality. Once all that we clung to is no longer worth clinging to, we sink down within, into our inner life body. Into the awareness of what makes you sentient. From this place you can feel the difference between the value of energy, and the value of form. This is the beginning of true discrimination. Until this distinction is made you have not discovered what it means to reason. I would posit that we are all on this forum, because to varying degrees we all have some awareness of this distinction. You can get an idea of how clearly someone understands this distinction, by how clearly they understand the equality of all things. You can feel how deeply they under-stand by whether or not higher energy is manifested into their outer form-world.
Every-thing becomes of the highest value only when we know the value of no-thing.
Now you no longer project your value onto the world. You channel higher energy into the world, and as a result every-thing is seen as having objective value.
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Unfortunately some people do a distinction between humans and animals, placing us above the animals.
My son went to Ethiopia and catched this statement in a discussion near him.
A guy said that he did not belive in God/Allah to the others, which made someone reply upset:
- But then you are like an animal.
This is of course a very stupid idea. Animals where on this planet before us and we can be happy that they give us so much in return. We are the bastards compared to the animals. Let us turn it the other way and place the animals above us, not equal, but instead the keepers of our true nature on earth.
Don Juan explained to Carlos that Carlos' Nagual animal was the fox. The Fox is the earth bound animal of the same energy and aspect, as the Raven.
"Anyone who understands the profound meaning of the Gospel of St. John will feel not only united through his physical body with the physical body of the earth, but as a psycho-spiritual being will feel united with the psycho-spiritual being of the earth which is the Christ Himself, and then he will feel how the Christ, as the Spirit of the Earth, flows through his body. When we have this experience, we are able to ask: what illuminated the writer of the Gospel of St. John at that moment when he was able to behold the profound mysteries which have to do with Christ-Jesus? He beheld the forces, the impulses which are present in Christ-Jesus, and he perceived how these impulses must be active in mankind, if only mankind will receive them."
"Let us suppose that a transgressor is brought before a person who really understands the Christ-Word. What will be his attitude toward the transgressor? Let us suppose that all those who would like to be Christians were to accuse him of a terrible sin. The real Christian would say to them: “Whether what you maintain has been done by him or not, makes no difference, the I AM must be respected; it must be left to Karma, to the great law which is the law of the Christ-Spirit Himself. Karma is fulfilled in the course of earthly evolution. We can leave it to this earthly evolution to determine what punishment Karma shall inflict upon a human being.” He would perhaps turn to the earth and say to the accusers: — “Pay heed to yourselves, it is the duty of the earth to inflict the punishment. Let us inscribe it then upon the earth where it has, moreover, been registered as Karma.”
Jesus went up to the Mount of Olives.
And early in the morning He came again into the temple and all the people came unto Him and He sat down and taught them.
And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto Him a woman taken in adultery; and they placed her in their midst.
They said unto Him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery in the very act. Now Moses in the law commanded us that such should be stoned; but what sayest Thou?
This they said, tempting Him, that they might accuse Him. But Jesus stooped down and with His finger wrote on the ground.
So when they continued asking Him, He lifted Himself up and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
And again He stooped down and wrote on the ground.
But when they heard this, being convicted by their own conscience, they went out one by one, beginning at the eldest even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
When Jesus had lifted Himself up and saw none but the woman, He said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? Hath no man condemned thee?
This He said in order to turn her thoughts away from all idea of outer judgment and point to an inner Karma.
She said, No man, Lord.
She was left to her Karma. Thus the only thing for her was to think no more about “punishment” which Karma fulfills, but to change her life.
And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more."
"Thus we see that in the post-Atlantean period the first impulse for developing the higher man flows into the earth. Tomorrow we shall become acquainted with the evolution of the human being in his relation to the Christ Impulse here in this post-Atlantean period and then, proceeding further, we shall show what the Christ of the future will be."
http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/GA103/English/AP1962/19080526p01.html
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This is of course a very stupid idea. Animals where on this planet before us and we can be happy that they give us so much in return. We are the bastards compared to the animals. Let us turn it the other way and place the animals above us, not equal, but instead the keepers of our true nature on earth.
And the Keepers of true grace, and forgiveness. How much practice they get, forgiving humans, constantly!
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Basically you are talking about something that you imagine should be true? Or do you already live in a world of energy where there is no duality? Is it your reality what you talk about?
You can't talk about something where you haven't been yourself, because then it's only an interpretation.
The reality for me at the moment is that I clearly see that humanity generally doesn't choose evolution. I still live in a world where we are separate beings and I can't possibly imagine how it will be in the position of so called oneness. It kind of feels like instead of actually being in this oneness state, you are just trying to close your eyes from seeing the reality, thinking, we are all one anyway and everything is fine.
Where does this idea come from, that everything is equal? How does it help anyone on their path?
Of course there is lots of beauty and good things in the world, but I don't think we should be blind and only try to see the so called positive. Don't you think that is very dual thinking? Concentrate on the good and ignore the bad?
There is more to this that I didn't delve into.
Everything in life appears in the form of duality. Everything can be symbolically represented by masculinity, and femininity. Even the most masculine contains femininity, and the dividing lines are never clearly drawn. Its a lot of semantics. The world of energy is beyond this symbolism, and semantics. Entering the world of energy, and manifesting that energy into the world of form is, from my perspective of highest moral importance. Everything else morally speaking falls into place from this position.
Yet to enter the world of energy the dividing line between you and I must melt away. The line that divides garden from me. The mental line that makes me think of the garden as mine, instead of me belonging to the garden. To do so we leave the head, and open the heart. We feel our world from a place of silence.
The principle of reciprocity, or the golden rule that we were discussing, is a tool to help melt the dividing line between you, and I. All truly ethical systems could be thought of as tools to help melt that dividing line between you, and I. Between subject who is perceiving, and the Other-object that is being perceived. The way is to see the you in them. If you are able to recognize a particular quality in them, perhaps it is in part because of that quality in you. Then you can not stop there. You see ugliness, or immorality in someone, or in a group, you have to look for that in yourself. You have to shift your perception to see yourself as ugly, and accept that perception of yourself as equally true to any other perception of yourself.
Don't stop with a one sided internal paradigm. That is once you see yourself as ugly, you have to remember the principle of duality that there is always beauty in ugliness. Find the beauty in your own ugliness. Keep doing this with every quality until you no longer care about the difference between different qualities. Till right and wrong doesn't matter anymore, as you can see the right in the wrong, and that it all equals out.
Then something interesting is found.
Every-thing is equal.
Something is valuable by comparison and contra-position. This thing is a certain degree of value, because something else has been deemed of less value. I derive my meaning of beauty in part by its comparison to what I have deemed to be ugly.
If everything is equal then no-thing matters.
If value is determined by saying that something is more than something that is less, but in actuality no such fixed value differences exists. That is, what is of one value this moment, is a different value in another moment...and time itself isn't of fixed, or linear orientation, than we can not objectively speaking designate a fixed value. Then in the big picture every value equals out, but that also means that no real values exist at all.
I.e. morality isn't real.
Oh, crap I've contradicted a previous statement!
I stated that living from the world of energy was of the highest moral importance. Wait, no contradiction at all. Actually if every-thing is objectively speaking of zero value. That is every material, every object, every form is of zero value, then what actually matters is the world that isn't composed of 'things'.
If every-thing matters equally, then no-thing matters.
Is this what is meant by living is if we are already dead? Is the attainment of this when the inner and outer shells of our being separate, and we have achieved substantial depth of presence? If nothing is of value it is as if we are dead, but then if we have done our due diligence we see this is only the superficial layer of reality. Once all that we clung to is no longer worth clinging to, we sink down within, into our inner life body. Into the awareness of what makes you sentient. From this place you can feel the difference between the value of energy, and the value of form. This is the beginning of true discrimination. Until this distinction is made you have not discovered what it means to reason. I would posit that we are all on this forum, because to varying degrees we all have some awareness of this distinction. You can get an idea of how clearly someone understands this distinction, by how clearly they understand the equality of all things. You can feel how deeply they under-stand by whether or not higher energy is manifested into their outer form-world.
Every-thing becomes of the highest value only when we know the value of no-thing.
Now you no longer project your value onto the world. You channel higher energy into the world, and as a result every-thing is seen as having objective value.
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Inside the human world I can say that everything is equal. It doesn't make a difference if what people do is good or bad. Because even the so called good doesn't change anything and doesn't matter and the so called bad can actually help someone to make some realisations.
But in the bigger picture it is "right" to choose evolution. And it is a fact that most of humaity doesn't choose it. No matter how positive I try to think or convince myself that it's a matter of perspective, still the reality is what it is.
Some like to think that the world around us is how we perceive it. It is true to some extent but some thing are what they are and they don't change into something else if we think about them differently. We can think about them from different perspectives regards to our own situation, but if we step outside ourselves, then they are what they are.
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Well... they can do what ever they want, but that doesn't mean I am blind about humanity's choices.
There was a time when Toltecs ruled the World and did care about society. But today no ordinary Toltec warrior engage in humanity, or their choices. There are exceptions, like Nelson Mandela and Dalai Lama, but they are rare.
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We can think about them from different perspectives regards to our own situation, but if we step outside ourselves, then they are what they are.
Have you ever stepped out of your mental (constructed/socialisation/domestic) inventory?
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Yes I have. Otherwise I couldn't look at humaness from aside.
Have you ever stepped out of your mental (constructed/socialisation/domestic) inventory?
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i think it comes back to your attention
like first attention being the world of objects
second attention being a world of dreams "for me"
third attention being a world of dreams and objects
and upward and downward "evolution" being polarising to degrees separation
both capable of finding a neutral end to the selection
the dreamer can find a dream that selects more of itself and close the gap
on the polarisation
which can also come close to the neutral
the indulgence can go either way then
a circle
cancelling itself out by following itself back to a spot in rationality
more energy
or rather being freed up of the already utilised energy
means shifting the focus away from the 'obsessive self concern'
because a lot of that self concern is generated by witnessing the first attention
drama which can be felt as that heavy solidity and weight of thinking and being
dreaming in the first attention wholly
requires placing the attention which is noticed when the concern is dropped
as a different way of navigating
the bands required to dream awake this way drop the socialisation and usual order
and engage more entire awareness even reaching the whole and can move the
whole
as feeding streams into their/our agreement world
that added awareness through the reduction of social norms
influences through timeless nature what is perceived to be real
as the first attention
and what newly is recognised to be not so real when dreaming third instead
so it would seem acknowledging the first as fixed would be correct yet its the
dropping the fixed which makes the difference
that takes energy and that s why Don Juan told Carlos also
it s not What i do so much as What i don t do
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Some like to think that the world around us is how we perceive it. It is true to some extent but some thing are what they are and they don't change into something else if we think about them differently. We can think about them from different perspectives regards to our own situation, but if we step outside ourselves, then they are what they are.
Ah...
In my previous post you questioned whether or not I experience reality the way I was describing things. Or if it was just an interpretation of things. The answer is, at this very moment no, I do not. But everything I described is based off of experiences I have had in the past, during which I did 'see' the world in the way I describe.
I also wasn't describing a state of complete one-ness, though I do believe, based off of the other experiences I have had, that such is possible.
The first time I was in a car waiting for my father to return from the bank, I was maybe about 13. I was pondering what is value, why do things matter, why are things important. A switch flipped in my mind, and I understood that nothing matters. This doesn't mean we don't act as if things matter, but inside we realize they don't, and we remain minimally effected by the external world. In this instance I wasn't experiencing oneness. I only realized that value is subjective, and I that I do not need to cling to my interpretation value.
A big part in coming to the above realization was the fact that what is of value in one context is not of value in a slightly different context. If this is true it is better to not designate fixed value, but instead be ready for whatever comes in the moment. There is not universal absolute fixed right or wrong. You can present any scenario, and I can show you how it isn't absolute, universal, or fixed in stone. Even the golden rule, which is almost universal.
The next time I was out walking my dog Hershey, and pondering "who am I". In this experience I did still see the world of form around me, but I also became aware of a new facet to this world. I could 'sense' the underlying essence of things. In this experience I knew with my whole body that the 'essence' of my being is deeply connected to the 'essence' of everything around me.
Those are just two of the several experiences I have had that point in the direction of what we are discussing.
Also in the previous post I made I provide an exercise, that you could try. If you try it, and are diligent with it, it will shift your perception of reality.
If you ponder what I said in depth you will also likely look at your world differently.
I am very curious what you mean by "step outside ourselves"... I get the sense you mean something different from what I would be saying with that phrase.
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a circle
cancelling itself out by following itself back to a spot in rationality
more energy
dropping the fixed which makes the difference
that takes energy and that s why Don Juan told Carlos also
it s not What i do so much as What i don t do
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Basically you are talking about something that you imagine should be true? Or do you already live in a world of energy where there is no duality? Is it your reality what you talk about?
You can't talk about something where you haven't been yourself, because then it's only an interpretation.
The reality for me at the moment is that I clearly see that humanity generally doesn't choose evolution. I still live in a world where we are separate beings and I can't possibly imagine how it will be in the position of so called oneness. It kind of feels like instead of actually being in this oneness state, you are just trying to close your eyes from seeing the reality, thinking, we are all one anyway and everything is fine.
Where does this idea come from, that everything is equal? How does it help anyone on their path?
Of course there is lots of beauty and good things in the world, but I don't think we should be blind and only try to see the so called positive. Don't you think that is very dual thinking? Concentrate on the good and ignore the bad?
It is fairly clear you didn't think much about my post. If you had you wouldn't use the above argument about positive thinking. If you had actually thought about it in depth before replying, you would realize nothing I said had anything to do with positive thinking.
What I posted doesn't require an experience of oneness to understand. I mean if you really want to get it, then yes some experience of the connection between you and I is of value. It also isn't an experience that is hard to achieve, just spend some time meditating with longing on the eyes of someone you feel deeply for, gradually your mirror neurons will activate, and you will taste some of what it is like to be the other person.
Still even without oneness, just think about how what is masculine in one context is not masculine in another. The great seducers throughout history realized that they were most attractive when they accentuated there inner opposite sexuality.
My post was about seeing through a world created by any kind of thinking.
Why do we practice inner silence meditation? What does this meditation do? What is the point of silencing our inner world?
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I would say, that this is what I call looking at humaness from aside. Then we realise that nothing that humans do, or in the world we see, doesn't matter. BUT, human world is not all there is :) In the end I suppose everyone will determine for themselves what matters and what not. I mean it does matter to you do have spiritual intent? You might as well drop it all, forget and it doesn't matter? Doesn't make any difference at all?
I had an experience as well when I was a child, about everything being one. But I remember just knowing it, not the exact feeling. I also saw thin colorful energy lines connecting everything to everything else.
The first time I was in a car waiting for my father to return from the bank, I was maybe about 13. I was pondering what is value, why do things matter, why are things important. A switch flipped in my mind, and I understood that nothing matters. This doesn't mean we don't act as if things matter, but inside we realize they don't, and we remain minimally effected by the external world. In this instance I wasn't experiencing oneness. I only realized that value is subjective, and I that I do not need to cling to my interpretation value.
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I was pondering what is value, why do things matter, why are things important. A switch flipped in my mind, and I understood that nothing matters. This doesn't mean we don't act as if things matter, but inside we realize they don't, and we remain minimally effected by the external world.
That is right, nothing matters. But a warrior act as if it does. That is the first step of Controlled Folly, to act as if it matters.
More than that, a warrior do not give away crucial events to randomness. A warrior prepare his coming events down to every detail.
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Yes I have. Otherwise I couldn't look at humaness from aside.
From where then, does the moral stuff come from? Animals and humans, homos and heteros, people that don't care and those that do, good and bad etc.
And please do not try the evolution agenda as a reason.
A naked child look at the humaness from aside.
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I had an experience as well when I was a child, about everything being one. But I remember just knowing it, not the exact feeling. I also saw thin colorful energy lines connecting everything to everything else.
Not until we reach the age of three years, we are about to get individual (separate beings).
During age 0-2 we are in the Nagual wave (with no own Tonal) and not fully separated from our parents (esp. mother).
Our luminous bodies are connected to our environment with energy lines that cannot be seen (within the optic range of light).
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I haven't talked about moral. Obviously it is not in my capacity to further explain what I am actually talking about.
A naked child is also a human and can't look at humanness from aside :D Well I think that a child doesn't have the life experience and a developed brain to think about complex things and also doesn't have a advanced awareness to see beyond human existence.
To see beyond, I guess we need the double. But double is not the same as human, if you really become connected to your double, you become aware of stuff you couldn't even imagine before. What I have understood that if you keep surprising yourself, that is a an indicator of progress.
From where then, does the moral stuff come from? Animals and humans, homos and heteros, people that don't care and those that do, good and bad etc.
And please do not try the evolution agenda as a reason.
A naked child look at the humaness from aside.
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A naked child is also a human and can't look at humanness from aside :D Well I think that a child doesn't have the life experience and a developed brain to think about complex things and also doesn't have a advanced awareness to see beyond human existence.
Some misunderstanding here. It is the adult with all adult experiences that has the eye of the naked child. One become viewing the world as a child without pretense and masks (naked). Children up to a certain age are actually experiencing the world more natural and they are more in the flow than adults.
But the "naked child" means the pure man without judgement and assumptions or conclusions about the world and their fellow being.
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And the Keepers of true grace, and forgiveness. How much practice they get, forgiving humans, constantly!
Yes - They constantly live the same stance that we "try to achieve" when practising unconditional love.
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I remember this from when I was around ten. At some point I started thinking that I don't see it anymore. Before that I think I didn't even think about it too much, it was natural, but I noticed when it was gone.
Not until we reach the age of three years, we are about to get individual (separate beings).
During age 0-2 we are in the Nagual wave (with no own Tonal) and not fully separated from our parents (esp. mother).
Our luminous bodies are connected to our environment with energy lines that cannot be seen (within the optic range of light).
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Yes a child is pure, but he/she doesn't have a brain to analyze the world. So I think it would be different kind of pureness when that part is added.
You keep talking about this judgment and assumption. If you see the world for what it is, how is it judgment? Lets take an example, someone kills another person. You see that another person was killed. How is that judgment?
Some misunderstanding here. It is the adult with all adult experiences that has the eye of the naked child. One become viewing the world as a child without pretense and masks (naked). Children up to a certain age are actually experiencing the world more natural and they are more in the flow than adults.
But the "naked child" means the pure man without judgement and assumptions or conclusions about the world and their fellow being.
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Yes a child is pure, but he/she doesn't have a brain to analyze the world.
Come on Now Taimyr! I do not talk about a child. I talk about an adult with the Eyes of a child.
And it is just your statement: "but he/she doesn't have a brain to analyze the world" that incline that you haven't understand a iota of what I am saying.
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Come on Now Taimyr! I do not talk about a child. I talk about an adult with the Eyes of a child.
And it is just your statement: "but he/she doesn't have a brain to analyze the world" that incline that you haven't understand a iota of what I am saying.
I think we are mostly just having basic communication problems.
Sometimes I have trouble understanding you Jahn since English isn't your first language.
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Jahn, perhaps you haven't understood either, what I am talking about?
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jahn not to gang up, but you were mentioning ages like 0-2 yrs, so forth, so i thot you were speaking about children too. not an adult having mind like a child.
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A naked child look at the humaness from aside.
As an answer to several posts.
Naked child in spiritual classes is the Tabula rasa - nothing written, no judgement.
(http://s.pixogs.com/image/R-1681267-1302026896.jpeg)
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jahn not to gang up, but you were mentioning ages like 0-2 yrs, so forth, so i thot you were speaking about children too. not an adult having mind like a child.
I said that kids 0-2 or three years lives in nagual.
The spiritual adult return to the flow (nagual), but to get there you have to clean your inventory, get away with your domestication and all that stuff, that is basic to our snags.
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Jahn, perhaps you haven't understood either, what I am talking about?
Talk is easy.
Let me ask what you do know about "Not doing"?
I shall give you a little introduction (my underlinings):
"The relationship between stopping the world and not-doing in Carlos Castaneda's Journey to Ixtlan[1] is here discussed. /..../
A brief summary of don Juan's philosophy follows. We are men born into a world that we cannot possibly comprehend in its awesome totality. We are cultural animals, and so are taught a system of beliefs in a process of conditioning that will allow us to function properly in the society of our fellows. This system is a world-construct, a description of the world and of reality, a paradigm of which we are members.
And so, we erroneously think we are able to describe reality – the world – accurately,
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Of course the world that we live in, is one description of reality. Of course we need to function properly in the society. But it doesn't mean that there isn't much more out there... You are so focused on what we do in this human world, but my goal is to get our of the human world and become aware of much more.
Talk is easy.
Let me ask what you do know about "Not doing"?
I shall give you a little introduction (my underlinings):
"The relationship between stopping the world and not-doing in Carlos Castaneda's Journey to Ixtlan[1] is here discussed. /..../
A brief summary of don Juan's philosophy follows. We are men born into a world that we cannot possibly comprehend in its awesome totality. We are cultural animals, and so are taught a system of beliefs in a process of conditioning that will allow us to function properly in the society of our fellows. This system is a world-construct, a description of the world and of reality, a paradigm of which we are members.
And so, we erroneously think we are able to describe reality – the world – accurately,
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Of course the world that we live in, is one description of reality. Of course we need to function properly in the society. But it doesn't mean that there isn't much more out there... You are so focused on what we do in this human world, but my goal is to get our of the human world and become aware of much more.
Jahn said the same thing.
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Of course the world that we live in, is one description of reality. Of course we need to function properly in the society. But it doesn't mean that there isn't much more out there... You are so focused on what we do in this human world, but my goal is to get our of the human world and become aware of much more.
It is not about any description, I asked if you are familiar with the Not Doing process that Toltecs sometimes use to get rid of snags that is an obstacle to the universal flow.
You are eager to pass on, but since you have a human body, you also have a mission to complete before you leave the earth.
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very true. i think we need to remember this life is important, and valuable.
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very true. i think we need to remember this life is important, and valuable.
It is the only one we got (this lifetime). But it is more to it, being in Soma indicates that you want to, not only seek growth but also have an urge for evolution.
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I don't know what you mean by snags.
I haven't said that this life is not important in a spiritual sense. After all, everything is inside everything, and physical life is not separated from Spirit either. What humans do in everyday life, is a description, a useless construct. With spiritual direction there comes a new meaning to it I suppose.
It is not about any description, I asked if you are familiar with the Not Doing process that Toltecs sometimes use to get rid of snags that is an obstacle to the universal flow.
You are eager to pass on, but since you have a human body, you also have a mission to complete before you leave the earth.
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I don't know what you mean by snags.
A snag is something that holds you back on your path, like a skid or brake that prevent any smooth progress.
A typical snag can look like this:
I am not meant to be rich, to be rich and have a lot of money is not spiritual, and therefore nothing for me.
Such idea will definitely keep you out of the flow.
Another typical snag could be that one reduce one capabilities like - I am not that type of person, I couldn't do that.
Then there are snags that are embedded in our opinions. We all like to identify our selves with our opinions (but the naked child hasn't any opinions).
Snag opinions might look like this:
All X are bad, and X people do bad things.
X people cannot handle freedom, and so on. That is typical mental snags that function as hurdles for the nagual to flow freely.
With spiritual direction there comes a new meaning to it I suppose.
The only spiritual direction that a Toltec warrior has, is to get rid of the curse from mankind.
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Jahn, can you elaborate more on the curse of mankind? Are we really cursed?
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Jahn, can you elaborate more on the curse of mankind? Are we really cursed?
Well, what do you think?
Native warriors and Indians in America says for instance, that the first thing to do is to - break the curse of the family.
Look at your own family, what crazy ideas and rules, and in some cases, even abusement haven't been around for ages?
Me, myself was beaten to shit during the early 1960's by my choleric father. 10 years later they forbid hitting your child in this country. And I never laid my hand on my children in the way that he did on us three brothers, just because I had promised myself to not be like him and do what he did to me.
Then there is mea culpa and the curse on modern society, but that is another class.
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So tell me, how does the "naked child" see the world? We all can see that the world is a mess and and there could be a much nicer world if majority would work towards it. Is that an opinion? This idea of naked child sound like simply being indifferent about what is going on in the world.
Another typical snag could be that one reduce one capabilities like - I am not that type of person, I couldn't do that.
Then there are snags that are embedded in our opinions. We all like to identify our selves with our opinions (but the naked child hasn't any opinions). All X are bad, and X people do bad things. X people cannot handle freedome and so on. That is typical mental snags that functionas hurdles for the free nagual flow.
The only spiritual direction that a Toltec warrior has, is to get rid of the curse from mankind.
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This idea of naked child sound like simply being indifferent about what is going on in the world.
No it isn't.
As adults we have all that "knowing and details" regarding the world around us. We are often well informed about what is going on. The difference is that we do not let such circumstances being hurdles in the flow.
We all can see that the world is a mess and and there could be a much nicer world if majority would work towards it. Is that an opinion?
We can choose to act, of course we should do when our empathy says so. But we are still in our flow and have our autonomy, and we do not let the troubles in the world steel our energy or stop our universal flow. That is why one should not engage too much in "the World" at the beginning of the path, because then the world can consume us.
It is a good saying that if my partner brakes the arm, I do care for her/him and be supportive with the aim to easy up the daily life. But I do not go and get my own arm broken just to show sympathy.
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Ok, then I have only to say this: what ever I see in the world, it doesn't take my energy and these things are in no way hurdles for me.
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Jahn regularly mentions being in the Flow. When I refer to the Flow I am in part referencing the modern psychological concept of Flow, which is quite relevant to the whole naked child idea.
My understanding of what Jahn is saying with the naked child is he is basically talking about the Buddhist concept of the Beginners Mind.
I understand the Beginners Mind as kind of a neutral way of seeing. What I mean; in our normal biased perception we see things in shades. Shades of good, and bad, shades of pretty and ugly, with variable degrees of those qualifiers intermixed. These shades of views make us heavy, create tensions, reactions, and bias our decisions. The create a closed mind. What your looking at here is the fog in front of your eyes. When you self-remember or maintain inner silence for a long enough period of time you can see this fog right in front of your eyes. This stance of Presence is neutral, it deepens you, when sufficiently crystallized you connect to the Axis mundi. The ultimate neutral and openness of beingness. The beginners mind is to see your world with an attitude of openness, to see it as the ultimate beginner; a child. Nakedness is a lack of the psyche's clothing; a removal of your masks, a shedding of your form.
He mentioned being a mature adult who is a naked child. Again we have a fusion of two opposite poles; a neutrality. Adult and child at the same time. You retain your learning, but you see in a clear unbiased way.
To see things from aside, as Taimyr says, yes this much what we are talking about. Stepping outside yourself, is removing the masks of the false identity. Then Jahn mentions the curse of humanity; explains this as an extension of the families curse. We are all one big family. That family is internalized in each of us, it starts at an early age. Its sad how quickly the child's world is snuffed out. A bit of that remains as the inner child, and recapitulation resurrects it. When you see things from aside yourself the next step out is to see beyond the world internalized in you.
In psychology the concept of Flow, as described by Mihály Csíkszentmihályi is also a neutral position. Things are often to challenging or not challenging enough, but when you find the right balance you can access Flow. You don't make it happen, but being balanced allows it to.
With your blinders on you make things too heavy, or you take them for granted. You react to much or at the wrong times, you are overly emotional, or mis-emotional. If you adopt the naked child's mind you eventually clear the dross, and can enter the Flow.
It is not indifference.... You see through difference from a place behind and above.
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Jahn regularly mentions being in the Flow. When I refer to the Flow I am in part referencing the modern psychological concept of Flow, which is quite relevant to the whole naked child idea.
My understanding of what Jahn is saying with the naked child is he is basically talking about the Buddhist concept of the Beginners Mind.
I understand the Beginners Mind as kind of a neutral way of seeing. What I mean; in our normal biased perception we see things in shades. Shades of good, and bad, shades of pretty and ugly, with variable degrees of those qualifiers intermixed. These shades of views make us heavy, create tensions, reactions, and bias our decisions. The create a closed mind. What your looking at here is the fog in front of your eyes. ....
Gee Nick, you have read a lot! I am quite impressed.
Let us just clear out a few things. the naked child concept has very little to do with the "beginner". The naked child is an metaphore for the man without pretense, and without any agenda.
Only a fraction of all spiritually devoted people will ever reach the stage of the naked child, so it is thereby not any beginners stage. The naked child within an adult holds the eyes of the Nagual, but is not the Nagual teacher per se.
What I mean; in our normal biased perception we see things in shades. Shades of good, and bad, shades of pretty and ugly, with variable degrees of those qualifiers intermixed. These shades of views make us heavy, create tensions, reactions, and bias our decisions. The create a closed mind.
Completely right! As adults we have collected so much garbage across the years that we have had become light years from our origin. We are full of misperceptions, opinions and lies. All this makes us heavy and blind for the miracle that are in front of our eyes each day.
Our luggage also bias our decisions as you say, and most important of all, it becomes a hurdle for us to be in the flow of the Universe.
You see, when there is an impulse from the Universe, we can act upon it. If we are "heavy" and carry our own agenda, then it is unlikely that we act, or if we act, it will not be by our full heart. But if we are light as a feather, then we can use that impulse to its full potential.
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Ok, then I have only to say this: what ever I see in the world, it doesn't take my energy and these things are in no way hurdles for me.
No it wouldn't deplete your energey (in your case). So you are right to a certain extent, it is odd on average, but true in your case. (The exception defines the rule).
However, these things operate within you as an obstacle for acheiving higher levels of energy in life. So the question remains - How familiar are you with the Not-Doing lessons that Castaneda provided?
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No I don't see it as an obstacle to be looking at the world with open eyes. It's part of becoming aware, it's the growth of awareness when you start to see what is really happening around you. And it's not just an opinion.
I don't find it relevant at a given moment to be practicing these things the way Castaneda described. I don't live by the book :) my surroundings and life provide me the necessary lessons.
No it wouldn't deplete your energey (in your case). So you are right to a certain extent, it is odd on average, but true in your case. (The exception defines the rule).
However, these things operate within you as an obstacle for acheiving higher levels of energy in life. So the question remains - How familiar are you with the Not-Doing lessons that Castaneda provided?
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Let us just clear out a few things. the naked child concept has very little to do with the "beginner". The naked child is an metaphore for the man without pretense, and without any agenda.
Only a fraction of all spiritually devoted people will ever reach the stage of the naked child, so it is thereby not any beginners stage. The naked child within an adult holds the eyes of the Nagual, but is not the Nagual teacher per se.
The beginners mind in Zen Buddhism doesn't really have anything to do with being a beginner either. It is called the beginners mind simply to denote a state of mind that is uncluttered and open, free of preconceptions, pretense, agenda, etc. The word in Japanese is Shoshin.
It may not be quite the same as your concept of the naked child, as there is indeed a difference between the state of mind the beginner has and the very young child has. The similarity is that the very young child is a beginner at life, so I see what you are saying as the ultimate beginners mind.
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The beginners mind in Zen Buddhism doesn't really have anything to do with being a beginner either. It is called the beginners mind simply to denote a state of mind that is uncluttered and open, free of preconceptions, pretense, agenda, etc. The word in Japanese is Shoshin.
It may not be quite the same as your concept of the naked child, as there is indeed a difference between the state of mind the beginner has and the very young child has. The similarity is that the very young child is a beginner at life, so I see what you are saying as the ultimate beginners mind.
Thank you Nick for the explanation. If it is that way you describe then the Eyes of the Naked child (within the adult warrior) is comparable with the Beginners mind.
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I don't find it relevant at a given moment to be practicing these things the way Castaneda described. I don't live by the book :) my surroundings and life provide me the necessary lessons.
Of course not dear, you have found your own way above the clouds and do not need any earthly distractions of how ordinary spiritual warriors work their way towards infinity (as ghosts). To put it like Scorpios do - a bit blunt and to some extent convincing.
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my surroundings and life provide me the necessary lessons.
That is an interesting view. Because your surroundings and life will mostly reflect back your position on your spiritual as it is right now. (A new house is a good manifestation). But unless life is your teacher (which isn't the case) you would not have enough fuel to propel further by only wait for what life provide for you. It will be the same as going in circles.
You, yourself must be the engine for growth and evolution. It is you that shall dictate the coming progress - not your daily experiences. If you sit down on your back like that, then you'll never reach your full potential and the magic in life that waits around the corner.
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Umm, it was my intent to have a house for an example, I looked for it, I bought it, I don't quite see how I was sitting back and waiting for it :D
I find this conversation getting a bit useless. You simply try to tell me that I am not this and I'm not that and I need to do this and that and so on. Sorry, it wont work, I can't trust you as a judge to say what is the case for me and what is not ;)
That is an interesting view. Because your surroundings and life will mostly reflect back your position on your spiritual as it is right now. (A new house is a good manifestation). But unless life is your teacher (which isn't the case) you would not have enough fuel to propel further by only wait for what life provide for you. It will be the same as going in circles.
You, yourself must be the engine for growth and evolution. It is you that shall dictate the coming progress - not your daily experiences. If you sit down on your back like that, then you'll never reach your full potential and the magic in life that waits around the corner.
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I find this conversation getting a bit useless. You simply try to tell me that I am not this and I'm not that and I need to do this and that and so on. Sorry, it wont work, I can't trust you as a judge to say what is the case for me and what is not ;)
There is one big difference between us, actually two.
You are young and you are a woman, while I am an old man.
If you do not think that I can provide anything more than your life already provide for you. Then be with that. The Raven spirit only knocks one time on your door.
~.~
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I can only see your wish to change me, which derives from ego :) Yeah go and fly ahead and carry on with your own path.
I am happy do discuss different things, but I don't need you to tell me what I need to do.
Just curious, what would you think if I instead told you "The Raven spirit only knocks one time on your door"?
There is one big difference between us, actually two.
You are young and you are a woman, while I am an old man.
If you do not think that I can provide anything more than your life already provide for you. Then be with that. The Raven spirit only knocks one time on your door.
~.~
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I can only see your wish to change me, which derives from ego :) Yeah go and fly ahead and carry on with your own path.
I am happy do discuss different things, but I don't need you to tell me what I need to do.
Of course not, you got your autonomy. I have no (own) wish to change you, I only offered you a tool for spiritual growth. As it is written in the Stars - Naguals have to do that to those that says they are on the path. And they (the Naguals) also have to tell what or why to the apprentice.
I am happy that I have no own wish (or ego) in this.
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For some reason I am very preconcieved about people calling themselves naguals. Why do you think you are a Nagual?
Of course not, you got your autonomy. I have no (own) wish to change you, I only offered you a tool for spiritual growth. As it is written in the Stars - Naguals have to do that to those that says they are on the path. And they (the Naguals) also have to tell what or why to the apprentice.
I am happy that I have no own wish (or ego) in this.
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For some reason I am very preconcieved about people calling themselves naguals. Why do you think you are a Nagual?
Just to get you on your toes.
Like knocking with the stick on the students head when they have fall asleep.
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So basically what you say is that you are better than me and able to teach me. You assume that you are in a position of being a teacher. I think it would be good to come down from that position, if you want to continue with your path. Your age only doesn't make you a teacher :)
Just to get you on your toes.
Like knocking with the stick on the students head when they have fall asleep.
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That is correct, I have something to teach. But obviously not to you.
However, A teacher is never better than his/her student. That is a ridiculous idea (from where comes such stupid ideas anyway?).
From your attitude.
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Well, the difference between you and me seems to be that you think you already have arrived somewhere, but I know I still have a lot to find out. I mean in a spiritual sense.
No matter how limited my world is, I know it is changing and expanding, but you instead seem to have stopped like there is nothing more to find out. Your teaching seems dead to me.
And I can't come down from anything because I live in the flow. The flow of the Universe has no Up or Down direction, it just is. What you talk about when saying "to come down from that position" is only another snapshot from your limited world.
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Your teaching seems dead to me.
It is.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifestation_of_God
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After all Jesus was a real being. And it is said in the Bible that the second coming will happen. One doesn't have to be a Christian to read the Bible. Bible doesn't equal christianity.
I have been reading, there is a lot of mention of the second coming. Jesus was a being who brought this spiritual information into the world, christianity is what people made of it after. I'm not familiar with the English version of the Bible but I think the chapter that says a lot about second coming is the "Revelation" in the New Testament.
To me it seems that Bible has the clearest spiritual message next to CC's books. In the beginning greating the world and humans. What we call "Gods" may be our creators. Humanity is kind of like and experiment, to see if we are capable of evolving spiritually. Then there comes a time to harvest, which I suppose is the second coming.
If I can find the right spots in the English version, I will quote.
The harvest is two old trees coming together
Christ appearance coming in a clouds is something else
i had a cloud appear above me a couple months ago
it had no reason to be alight and there was nothing to do it around
yet it was alight inside
not even any moon around
it was a strange night
to see a light in a cloud all by itself
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifestation_of_God
By that description I am a prophet.
"The Manifestations of God are a series of personages who reflect the attributes of the divine into the human world for the progress and advancement of human morals and civilization."
But you could never believe such a thing, that the guy next to you on Internet, could be a "prophet".
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But you could never believe such a thing, that the guy next to you on Internet, could be a "prophet".
Could be ;)
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This statement indicates you have a strong faith in Jesus. Respectfully, I can acknowledge a generic "Christ Consciousness", but I am not a follower of Jesus. So it's best that I duck out of this discussion. It looks like Ellen is better able to serve here - as well as Jahn and Juhani, no doubt.
I kind of want to reply to this thread also, but am afraid to upset a christian apple-cart.
I do want to say that a lot of the ideas in the Bible are out-dated. And our world today has changed so much and is changing (evolving) at breakneck speeds.
A quickening?
I agree with the idea that if there was/is a 2nd coming, folks would most likely miss it. Would probably be a lucky thing for Jesus, though
who wants to be crucified twice?
Or drowned
Or hanged
Or stoned
...
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Could be ;)
Well I wouldn't believe it either. But my recent post puts the focus on a weak point in our perception, recognition and mental body. As you all might know I have a Master degree in the Behavioral sciences, and I have kept my eyes open also regarding “beliefs” in society, especially religious beliefs.
So I can summarize a live of research concerning what religious beliefs that works (out there).
1) The more far from you in time that a prophet or divine person said something – the higher the impact on the religious society. That means that a prophet around 600 AD has a greater impact than a prophet from the 21:th century.
2) A prophet and his prophecies should go in line of what is expected, in other terms, the prophecy should be political correct. Then it is accepted by the majority of followers.
These two points may be enough today to be reflected upon.
And meantime I may forward a “astrological prophecy” that was written 42 years ago (in 1973) by the authors Francis Sakoian and Louis Acker. They talked about the influence of Pluto, from 1984 to 2000 in their book “The Astrologers Handbook”, and they said:
With Pluto in Scorpio worldwide conflict is likely to reach a peak of intensity. “Regenerate or die” will be the order of the day, because Pluto rules Scorpio, the sign of death and regeneration. There is no planetary sign position of such potency. This period marks the final death-gasp of the Piscean age; time will have run out of human folly, and there will be no choice but face the consequences.”
Unfortunately I must say, is that this period of Pluto is prolonged beyond year 2000 …
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Where does this idea come from, that everything is equal? How does it help anyone on their path?
Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Romans 2:11
For God shows no partiality.
John 13:16
Truly, truly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him.
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This thread shows the mindset of many who wish ill will on mankind, so that Jesus will come and save THEM from horrible suffering, yet have no regard for...others.
Once one makes the mistake of wishing for a "return," knowing consenquences can be bad for OTHERS well....
Luckily there is an out. But for Taimi...I am not certain. This is between her and God in the end.
Luke 21: 34 “Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you suddenly like a trap. 35 For it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth. 36 Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”
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The only right way is to pray we all escape. And this "end time" deal has happened, the threat, more than once. This thread shows those eager for it to happen, actually welcome it, what is WRONG with people.
Why she was in soma in the first place, beats me.
Juhani and I were actually in alignment on this one. ;)